the FL youtube teen beating case is about 'power' and 'dissent' -- is this who we have become?

[nashville_brook]

I did sociology/social theory in grad school -- so I get interested in stories like the video teen beating. I can't help but wonder what set off this horrible episode. I wonder what sort of social psychology (pathology) was at work.

Listening to the audio of the youtube video posted the Orlando Sentinel, what seems to be at issue in the beating is that the victim "didn't like" someone named Ashley (maybe one of the boys arrested -- maybe a girl named Ashley -- maybe it was April).

I imagined a stolen boyfriend or snitching to be at the bottom of this. Instead, I learned that the victim's "transgression" was simply that she voiced "dislike" for a certain person.

This is unexpected, and it points to something more sinister, I think, than the beating itself. I think that these kids are monsters, but they are monsters of our making.

The beaten girl, Tori, was attacked because she expressed an unpopular opinion. She expressed "dislike" for a person in the "in group." The response of the hegemonic group was to terrorize and humiliate her. They intended to post the video so that other people would also know the consequences of running afoul of the "alpha tribe."

It seems to me that these kids are acting out the same social pathology that we discuss here every day.

The Siegleman prosecution and the Valerie Plame outing are consistent with this behavior. Independent thought or power accrual will not be tolerated. You will be beaten. You will be humiliated. And everyone else will see this and be terrorized into place (inaction).

In generic terms, the attackers played the role of authoritarians punishing dissent. The attackers' behavior in the video was that of "entitled power players." It didn't matter that the girl wouldn't fight. That actually made them more angry, because it compounded her dissent. Not only did she dare voice an unpopular opinion, THEN she had the gall to refuse their vainglorious fight.

These kids are reflecting our behavior back to us. They are manifesting the artificial/destructive power structures put in place in public school. These kids have adopted the spirit of fascism (as opposed to the politics or economic underpinning).

To me, these kids are little testaments to the decline of our civility/civilization. Their terrorist tactics worked. I'm terrified. Is this who we have become?

[aquart]

1. And that's different from GD-P?

[nashville_brook]

7. yeppers.

[lumberjack_jeff]

91. Exactly

The beaten girl, Tori, was attacked because she expressed an unpopular opinion. She expressed "dislike" for a person in the "in group." The response of the hegemonic group was to terrorize and humiliate her. They intended to post the video so that other people would also know the consequences of running afoul of the "alpha tribe."

It seems to me that these kids are acting out the same social pathology that we discuss here every day.

We don't just discuss it, we live it.

[Deja Q]

2. Well, my original claim still stands:

School is for education, not fraternizing. If it means putting in school uniforms as an end-run around this concept of "hegemony and outcasts", so be it. We didn't have these gang-catfights in the 1950s. The 1950s had some problems, but the middle class had a damn good livelihood. What the hell has happened, indeed?

[nashville_brook]

6. i think that separating kids into discreet grades/ages also encourages this.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

12. Uniforms don't do shit.

We have uniforms, and it doesn't change one thing about how people are. Everyone still knows who the 'popular' people are, and the people who are not above fighting tooth and nail if you fuck with them. I have yet to find a way to fix this part of human nature.

[Iris]

54. What bothers me is no one even tries to teach kids that this is a part of human nature that

is not acceptable and they need to learn to control it or express it a way that is not harmful to themselves or others.

When I was a kid, if we picked on other kids, our mothers let us know it was low and despicable behavior. Where are these kids' parents?

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

56. A good question. My mother has never hit me, but she can send the fear

(and worse, shame) of God in me with one look if she finds out that I've done something 'wrong' (i.e. immoral as opposed to just stupid)

[Iris]

65. oh, yes! The "Mom" look!

I know it well!

[JerseygirlCT]

80. Know it, and do it! nt

[Diclotican]

90. TheFriendlyAnarchist

TheFriendlyAnarchist

I know that look good myself.. Even today if I get that look I think I'm doing something wrong... And now I am an adult...

Was never beaten, but that look.... Disappointment, anger and so on.. Most Disappointment I belive..

But when it come to this kids.. Something must have going wherry wrong when teen agers cold do that.. We can blame the kids for it. But I would say it is many thing that have going bad, before this kids could to that..
Yes their DESERVE to be punished somewhat. So they maybe learn something... But somehow I don't know if 10-20 year in prison are the right tool.... I am just not sure...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[JerseygirlCT]

79. That's my question, too

Where are the parents? Why do these kids think that violence is acceptable?

[roguevalley]

83. most parents and teachers do. but there are some who are not

worth a damn. one of these twit's mom is out blaming the victim. Look at these idiots. Slackjawed idiots. They need to have to live with little, work hard and be accountable. They look like yuppie dipshits, who never had to worry about a damned thing. Diss? That is the stupidest word in the world. It means you were respectable to start with. Too damned many kids have a malignant kind of self esteem, a self esteem that is not equal to what they are and have achieved. Its dominating and mean, couched in a 'street cred' that they haven't earned and they fling themselves at others for every kind of perceivable slight. If they were truly as good and grand as they believe themselves to be, they would have never done this. THe words of others wouldn't be a concern. But these idiots are full of themselves, have it reinforced by their slackassed dimwitted parents and we all suffer because of it.

[Iris]

89. well said.

I am amazed at the lack of shame some people have. If I had participated in something like this as a teenager, my parents would not have defended me, but would have disowned me!

[nashville_brook]

100. i think this is at root of the "tried as adults/sanction as juveniles" controversy.

you describe the style of teenage stupidity as it manifests today. in my time the language was different, but the immaturity was the same. teenagers have no sense of adulthood until they have that rite of passage.

kids increasingly have been treated as "products" and "accessories" of their parents, rather than productive parts of the family unit. kids (as a whole) don't have a function like they used to. they're life is all about consumption and mimicry. they are ridiculous and some of them actually know it. not these creeps.

it's curious that you imagine these kids as yuppie spawn. i imagined them as working class -- hard bit, in that nouveau, ex-urban way (the multiplex, the mall). Lakeland is an edge city in a sea of spread cities built on the magic kingdom in a resort state shaped like a penis. In my imagination, these kids' parents might bring in $40K a year. Latchkey orphans in a Lord of the Flies world ruled by teenagers in the hours between 2 and 6 (when parent/s come home).

i bet the truth looks nothing like either of our imaginations. :evilgrin:

i could be totally wrong, but if "kids" had meaningful/productive functions (nopt just cheerleaders) then maybe there would be less of this. that...and parenting. even better -- an economy where parents are spread so thin they actually can parent. i'm a little "conservative" with this -- i would love to see a return to single-income families. we should be able to support a family on one income so the other person can parent and run the engine that is the family. i'm not saying it has to be women. maybe it's both parents who can telecommute from home.

[nashville_brook]

95. it occurs to me that the uniforms they're wearing now might have an effect.

:evilgrin:

[Canuckistanian]

They DO wear uniforms, in their minds.

Life is a constant battle between "Their team" and the "Others". And any HINT of disloyalty, and the punishments are severe.

What the world needs is LESS uniforms.

[nashville_brook]

86. the red ribbon in the movie Heathers -- spot on.

[JerseygirlCT]

78. Can I tell you something? I wore uniforms for 12 years

Stopped none of this in-crowd and out-crowd thing. Everyone wore the same skirts? Then there would be competition over the shoes or socks... Always something.

No, we didn't have the fights. But then, they would not have been tolerated - by either parents or school administrators. In school, they would have resulted in expulsion, period.

Any time you have a large group of teenagers, fraternizing will be a part of the picture. They have to know that there are ground rules for how people will be treated, and then those rules have to be strictly enforced. Bullying must be dealt with - immediately. Those who are willing to cross boundaries and befriend the friendless should be rewarded with praise whenever possible. Kids are smart - they'll get it. But if that message isn't consistent - if they're not getting it at school and at home... it won't stick.

[Life Long Dem]

3. I don't know. This stuff always happened, it's just now easy to video it and post online.

[PetraPooh]

71. Yep, I can't count the times that folks got off at our bus stop, waited for the bus

to leave, blocking the way so my brother was the last one off the bus and couldn't run, then beat the crap out of him. His crime? Well, I never quite figured that out. It was just what the boys around the block wanted to do, I guess. But with no cameras, no one but us knew about it. And since I was low man in a family of abusers (ie everyone beat on me, including my brother) I surely wasn't in a position or have the desire to do anything to stop him from getting beaten.

Only once did anyone attempt to beat me (outside of my family) and she was unable to harm me, but tried to claim she & friends had beaten me mercilessly. So the next day I didn't wear a pantsuit (yes, I'm old) as I usually did, but wore a very short empress waistline dress that I had never worn to school because it showed nearly everything. Hey not only did I have no bruises or other marks, the guys suddenly noticed that I had one heck of a bod. I actually ended up having to thank her, cuz after that day I was noticeably more popular myself, she ended up going by the wayside pretty quick for other reasons (she got into heroine shortly after that.)

Kids have been mean for as long as I can remember, I agree that it is just a case of having video cams that makes it more known about these days. Also back then no one wanted to be known as a "victim" so wouldn't tell anyone. Nowadays everyone is into the whole victim mind set, (not saying this is good or bad, just different) so tend to be more open and vocal about both perceived and real victimhood.

[depakid]

4. Astute observations

that lead one to further questions:

where did these kids learn or develop these behavioral attributes -and how have they been reinforced?

[nashville_brook]

5. i haven't thought this thru -- i'm not smart enough -- but i think public school has

at least something to do with it. you know, the tracking. the socio-economic disparities. the competition. i think we learn the basics of this behavior from warehouse schooling. montessori programs aim to eliminate this.

but this is just what is on my mind right. it's a reaction. i have no idea, but i think it's worth it to find out.

[MichiganVote]

10. What a bunch of crap. These kids lacked a stop button. They felt entitled.

Show me the school, any school, that encourages this behavior and I'll agree with you but your logic has more stretch than cellulite.

[depakid]

20. Any school with irrational "zero tolerance" rules encourages this sort of behavior

[MichiganVote]

23. "Zero tolerance" is adopted by school boards comprised of members of the community.

That is not a school management issue. That is a school board issue. As to characterization that zero tolerance is irrational...not likely. There are specific steps to take with a school policy of zero tolerance just as there are for fire alarms. IF they are not followed by irrational personnel, then it still is a personnel problem, not a school problem.

Your generalizations do not help your cause.

[depakid]

26. Zero tolerance is not irrational? You actually believe that?

One of the processes that so called "zero tolerance" teaches kids is that absurdly controlling behavior is acceptable and anyone who bucks the "rule" -no matter how slight the infraction- and no matter what the justification- is AND SHOULD BE subject to severe punishment with no regard for mitigating circumstances or justifications.

This is very similar to the sort of process the OP describes with respect to the apparent social norms in this case.

[MichiganVote]

29. If that is what you believe zero tolerance is then you have neither read a school policy

that endorses 'zero tolerance' or had an conversations with school administrators about 'zero tolerance.

What you are describing is not a 'zero tolerance' school policy.

[depakid]

45. Oh please

I can read and analyze policies and cases falling within them for myself.

So can you:

http://www.zerointelligence.net/

[MichiganVote]

47. You don't work in a school or have children in school do you?

[depakid]

51. How is that relevant

to the tens of thousands of absurd (and often Kafkaesque) outcomes that result from these policies in districts all over the country?

[MichiganVote]

52. You've answered your own question.

[depakid]

59. Really? Perhaps you could explain?

[MichiganVote]

63. No thanks. This conversation has become tiresome. See ya'.

[readmoreoften]

57. How is anecdotal experience give someone the final say?

Just because you have one child in one school system or you're a teacher in one school doesn't mean you understand the ramifications of zero tolerance policies better than anyone else--particularly someone who follows the topic.

[MichiganVote]

66. Didn't say it did. Merely asked a question.

[nashville_brook]

37. zero tolerance is absolute authoritarianism. symbolically and ritually it readies us for this sort

of behavior.

i think this is a good example -- but it's not as the other person asserts, the cause of the matter. it's rather another brick in the wall.

[nashville_brook]

34. no one is saying this is a school management issue -- i'm certainly not and as i read it, nor is

this poster.

for myself, i'm speaking in terms of sociology. the big picture. pathologies. not programs

[MichiganVote]

42. You just stated in Post #5...

"i'm not smart enough -- but i think public school has

at least something to do with it"

I haven't read anything in this event that suggests that pathology was a part of the circumstance. These kids are maladjusted. Maladjusted kids break rules. They habitually break rules. And in this case they assaulted another student.

End of story.

[nashville_brook]

53. are you a principal? teacher? school board member?

you sound like you have a hound in this hunt.

if you are involved in the school system, i would hope that you would be able to see that there are numerous pathological/artificial power structures set up in the public school system.

jocks vs misfits
popular kids vs brains
rich vs poor
freshmen vs seniors
AP vs Voc Ed

competition and aggression are encouraged in all areas of school. good schools moderate competition before it becomes aggression. but the fact is, the structure in place at the school level provides the fertile ground for the nastiest power struggles many of us will ever know.

i don't understand your hostility -- but i would be interested to know where it's coming from.

[Iris]

60. but couldn't this be the case in any school situation - public or private?

I'm willing to say that the behavior of these kids does not reflect public schools so much as the total breakdown in civility our culture is currently experiencing. People are just ruder in general - think about road rage and the irrational behavior people driving cars express towards other drivers.

On edit: I guess what I really mean is the state of our public schools reflects our society as a whole.

[nashville_brook]

72. totally! i just offered "public" b/c i went to public and they are/were in public.

my OP is about the breakdown of civility.

[Iris]

73. That's what I was thinking.

I wonder if there is a way to correct this thru public schools? I mean, it still remains one of the largest "captive" audiences we have in this country.

[nashville_brook]

84. there's a long history of research and methods to make schools more humane...

one of the basic ideas is *localization* -- smaller, neighborhood schools within a short walking distance from home. the idea behind this was that incivility is born of anomie. when kids are warehoused in giant institutions drawing from all the different areas of town you encourage gang behavior -- people seeking out "like" sets of people and competing with other groups for status.

there's also the belief that smaller, neighborhood schools involve parents and the community more in the day to day life of students. the theory goes that students are much less likely to engage in transgressive behaviors when they know everyone and everyone knows them.

i think the focus should be on the "civilizing" nature of a school. rather than starting a program to teach emotional skills (additive solution), seek ways to humanize the already existing structures. involve older kids and younger kids in group endeavors rather than group competitions. "hippy-dippy" private schools are all over this with school gardens and improvement projects. instead of creating "teams" of athletes that enact near bloodsport rituals -- these schools engage students in cooperative behaviors.

right now the scuttlebutt is that the school is calling for youtube to censor "violent" videos. talk about passing the buck and putting the cart before the horse (insert your own cliché). to say that these kids were acting out *a video* rather than a set of social standards is absurd.

[girl gone mad]

104. I like the idea..

of smaller neighborhood schools.

I also wonder if it might be better for kids to stay in one school for the duration, or at least make fewer switches. I think at the very least, a homeroom teacher who stays with the same group of students for a few years might be able to create a cohesive, bonded group of students that are interested in each others long term success. I know kids would transfer in and out, but kids can form bonds pretty quickly in a positive environment.

My son is home schooled and he's taken classes with other HS students. These are always mixed-age classes, which I think might be another good option.

I'd love to be able to plan a school from the ground up.

[screembloodymurder]

109. That's the problem.

Everyone wants the public school system to do their job. Perhaps, if parents did their job, the schools could do a better job of educating.

[MichiganVote]

62. If you believe that everyone who challenges your perceptions is hostile....

you haven't graduated yet!

:rofl:

I work with youth who have done this and worse. I have had kids like these in private and public schools. They have had good parents and bad parents. They come from every cultural neck of the woods you could name.

They all have something in common. They lack boundaries.

[Blue_Roses]

88. yep

I agree...where was the supervision when this was going on? Pathetic.

[readmoreoften]

64. You must be a public school teacher.

Because you talk like an authoritarian. It's fairly obvious that the OP has more insight than you do on the matter. Of course, people in the picture can seldom see the picture.

Stop talking to intelligent adults as if you're the mommy or the principal. "End of Story".

[MichiganVote]

69. Nope.

[Occulus]

97. I'd like everyone here to take note that MichiganVote is NOT saying what s/he DOES do.

End of line.

[screembloodymurder]

110. The school had nothing to do with this.

Do you blame your doctor when you break your leg?

[screembloodymurder]

108. This is an issue of parenting not education.

WTF does this have to do with school?

[nashville_brook]

31. that's not what i'm saying -- hierarchal structures, humiliation, power, dissent

[MichiganVote]

36. How about they knew what they wanted to do, they planned it, they did it and they broke the law.

Now they can pay the piper. Too bad but its their choice that put them at risk for social censure. And no Judge is going to give a damn about hierarchal structures, power or dissent.

[nashville_brook]

38. i mentioned nothing of how i think they should be punished.

in fact -- your behavior demanding that i toe your line is not dissimilar from the attacker's behavior.

i'm setting out a social critique. keep up.

[MichiganVote]

44. Sorry you feel that way. I just think you want to be right. So be right if it makes you feel better.

[nashville_brook]

61. discussions generally aren't zero-sum. i don't understand your hostility.

[MichiganVote]

68. Assuming I am hostile is rather pointless. If you disagree with me, that is suffice.

[nashville_brook]

74. my OP is about the breakdown of civility. did you get that part?

[lumberjack_jeff]

93. My sons school is the example you're looking for.

Because of poor grades, (bluntly he was failing) we transferred my freshman to a neighboring school. Within two weeks, he'd been to the hospital once and had a paramedic check him out at the school (but not transport him) another time.

When the administration is confronted, the assistant principal shrugged and said "there's the code (the law), the school code, and the kids code. What can you do?"

Even more frustrating is that my son prefers the school because he thrives on the camaraderie which results from making the school code subordinate to the kids code.

In short, gangs are the self-defense mechanism established to mitigate the complete unwillingness of the school to exercise their authority.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

102. Have you gotten a lawyer and sued them yet? You should.

[patrice]

19. It's the schools only to the extent that the schools are where the peer groups meet.

It's deeper than the schools.

This IS what our culture is and, even more than money, our culture is reinforced by churches selling feel good about you and yours.

[nashville_brook]

40. i don't disagree. it's a cultural issue, and church is also be a place where authoritarianism

is taught and learned (often under duress -- threat of hell damnation).

[patrice]

48. And churches give major emotional rewards for group compliance.

Thanks for starting this thread. That news story has been bugging me quite a bit.

:hi:

[nashville_brook]

87. hey, you're very welcome -- sorry if it became somewhat of a crab-match...

my attention was divided making dinner, and i wasn't focused enough in the back-and-forth to be as constructive as i'd like to be.

Abrams did a good piece on this last night -- his general think with a prosecutor and a defense attorney. Asked whether they should be tried as adults. I loved the nuance in the answers. Defense and Prosecution agreed -- they should be *tried* as adults, but given juvenile sanctions. Then they explained "juvenile sanctions." They are harsh indeed, but leave room for rehabilitation. What could have been a giant argument was actually calm agreement. The b/f and I were like, "wow -- that's unexpectedly non-controversial." I wonder how Nancy Grace (ugh!) handled it. Eck. No I don't. :)

[sniffa]

33. Well, I disagree

I attended both public and private schools. Private (Catholic) school was actually the more deviant and criminal of the two.

[patrice]

39. Me too. I agree, except for "deviant". I'd say they were WAY more $tatu$ and

social-economic-class conscious. They knew who buttered their bread and the hypocrisy was soooooooooo obvious when it came to picking the leads in musicals, cheerleaders, sports captains, etc. Basically laid down the law that "merit is ir-relevant".

[sniffa]

49. Very true

Also, one of the most shocking things for me, considering the prestige of the High School I attended, was the amount of violence, and insane drug use. I have no qualms about drug use now, but being a product of "Just Say No" it was shocking as a Freshman. :o

[nashville_brook]

41. it's the authoritarianism -- totally evident in catholic schools -- but THESE girls went to public

school as did i -- so that's why i mention that.

[sniffa]

43. And as I mentioned, I went to Public School too

That was actually the best time of my pre-college school years, and the most functionally developing of the two.

[readmoreoften]

67. Well, I'm glad that's your experience, but I think the OP is saying that all school is

authoritarian by nature and that it's getting worse due to the national climate. These kids just happened to go to public school.

[nashville_brook]

70. coolio. isn't it weird that even bringing up high school brings up all sorts of high emotion...

i'm a catholic, but happily escaped the torture of catholic school.

the awful public high school i went to was rife with social pathology -- very lord of the flies. very authoritarian. the more libertine high school i went to wasn't a drag at all. go figure.

[Hayduke Lives]

58. There's something to that

Problem is, there's hardly a control group to test the theory.

I've home-schooled both my kids for the last 10 years ('cause the local schools suck). They're normal, well adjusted kids, though I take little credit for that. When folks ask about how they become socialized without being in school 6 hours a day I just laugh... Socialized how? Learning to shove someone in a locker. Submitting to the Lord of the Flies?

I'm a product of public schools and I know it's not all that bad. But it's not all that good either.

[girl gone mad]

105. I've always been a little surprised by that question, too.

I'm used to it now, but it took me a while. I think people just want to be sure that your home schooled kids get a chance to meet and be around other kids. Usually when I explain that my son goes to various classes and the neighborhood kids are always around, the inquisitors are appeased.

American schools are an artificial environment for learning to socialize. The real world doesn't function like any school I've ever known of.

[patrice]

9. Who is responsible for social messages about "Good and Bad"?

The churches.

[depakid]

21. That's certainly true in certain regions

and one can't discount the sorts of irrational enmity for "the other" that's preached in many of them....

[patrice]

24. Emotions disappear from diseased brains after rational thought.

They're deeper, more basic functions which served the survival of the species before rational processes evolved.

[patrice]

8. The patterning may be from Churches, which, compared to public schools,

one might hypothesize, are operating in a deeper, more basal layer of conditioning, i.e emotions.

I'd like to see a list of their churches published.

[Prefer]

11. the devil made them do it

it wasn't their fault, see?

[patrice]

15. "Good Guys" justified in the struggle against "Bad".

The anonymity of "the group".

"Righteous" behavior rewarded, at minimum with Eternity, and even with riches if you get "it" particularly "right".

I disagree with what the OP said about public schools. I gauran-freaking-t you, this happens in private schools too - I've seen it.

The schools, private and public, are reinforcing the conditioning being laid down by the churches.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

13. My life was made a living hell in high school...

By kids like these. The popular ones. The ones who, through some strange alchemic process based upon their family name and some other very intangible and opaque processes and criteria, are the alpha creatures in the herd. My Very Own Little Bastards were largely dumb as posts and protected by the faculty who, through their actions and enabled the pecking order and who, some of them, contributed to the problems I and a few unlucky others experienced through their actions and encouragement. This was apparent to me, and was also expressed by the vice-principal and two other teachers.

As for my former tormentors, I do so hope that their lives are a constant torment of unpotentiated effect. I know two of them, big football and wrestling stars, ended up with huge substance problems, once the cheers of the crowd disappeared. My gums bleed for them.

When these kids go to jail, and I pray they do, if they are convicted, it will be a mighty blow for every person, either young or old, who was ever the victim of the vicious mobs that exist in the high schools of America. And vicious they are.

Their parents must be so proud.

[patrice]

35. : - (

I've seen this. Experienced it myself - some. And my son went through it.

It's so fucking SAD.

:grouphug:

...................................

However, some of the best things about me are a result of those experiences, but so are some of my worst weaknesses.

[nashville_brook]

50. when i first read this story i hoped that if nothing else comes of this, at least

it would go out as a deterrence to bullies.

i was bullied in school too, as were many of my friends (geeky misfits that we were). i went to two schools. one (in florida) seemed to encourage the bullying. the other (in east tennessee) did not. i was never bullied in east tenn. just florida.

i'm not a judge or a lawyer, so i really don't have anything intelligent to say about them being tried as adults. but i totally applaud the threat of the book being thrown at them. you totally speak for me when you say:

"When these kids go to jail, and I pray they do, if they are convicted, it will be a mighty blow for every person, either young or old, who was ever the victim of the vicious mobs that exist in the high schools of America. And vicious they are."

spot on.

[Richard Steele]

14. "They are monsters of our making". K&R

[patrice]

16. AND they're going to be the ones in charge of our Old Age!

You think we're a Death Culture now, just wait until the financial pressures of taking care of a lot of sick old Boomers kick in.

[elocs]

17. Teens' brains are immature and there is a disconnect between choices and consequences.

From: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2007-12-02-teenbrains_N.htm

Steinberg, a Temple University psychology professor, helped draft an American Psychological Association brief for a 2005 case in which the U.S. Supreme Court outlawed the death penalty for crimes committed before age 18.

That ruling relies on the most recent research on the adolescent brain, which indicates the juvenile brain is still maturing in the teen years and reasoning and judgment are developing well into the early to mid 20s. It is often cited as state lawmakers consider scaling back punitive juvenile justice laws passed during the 1990s.

"As any parent knows," wrote Justice Anthony Kennedy for the 5-4 majority, youths are more likely to show "a lack of maturity and an underdeveloped sense of responsibility" than adults. "... These qualities often result in impetuous and ill-considered actions and decisions."

He also noted that "juveniles are more vulnerable or susceptible to negative influences and outside pressures, including peer pressure," causing them to have less control over their environment.

This does not excuse their behavior, but it goes a long way to understanding it. My own daughter is 16, 5'10" (people still associate height with maturity), intelligent and is well spoken and appears to be mature, but when faced with a decision it is amazing and disappointing how frequently she will make a poor, wrong, or stupid choice.

I think with these kids there is also a group mindset which takes over and drives events where they would not go with individuals. Also, within the peer group the strongest personalities take over and others will follow. There are also teens who have not developed a real sense of empathy in understanding who another might feel. There are no simple or quick answers and fixes here, but it is sad.

[nashville_brook]

30. i am (thank god) not the same person i was at 15, 17, 19 or even 23.

i thought i was immortal. i thought i was untouchable.

[sniffa]

18. More like bad parenting

I did a lot of fucked up shit as a kid, but I still knew it was wrong. I did it anyway. It wasn't until I was caught and tried as an adult, that I really had to start regulating my own behavior. I knew it was wrong, and I hid it from parents, and once I was in adult court as a juvenile, I had a new perspective.

In hindsight, I'm glad that did happen to me, because I would have kept progressing to the point that I would end up in jail for life (or dead).

edit: and my parents did not ever defend me. They were ashamed, and let me know. And they let me suffer my own consequences to learn my own lessons.

[patrice]

22. There are bad parents. But many more aren't bad, just not good enough to meet

the challenges of raising children in our culture.

They cannot adequately answer the question, "Why".

[sniffa]

25. "why" what?

Why their kids act that way? I blame rap music.

Bad parents: There are good parents, whose kids go astray - the way they respond to their children going astray shows what kind of parent they really are.

[patrice]

27. Why anything. Anything a child/young person asks.

The "answers" aren't working anymore. By the time they are seniors in highschool (where my experience was), the "answers" have devolved into things such as: "Because we say so" or "Because _______ says so" or "Because that's the way it is" or "Because that's the way things have always been" or, the worst, "Don't ask why."

[sniffa]

28. If those are the answers, then yes, it's bad parenting

Each generation is different, and if you're relying on those outdated axioms, then yes, you are a bad parent.

People love to say, "Oh, kids are growing up too fast these days," but that's just a shit-poor excuse. They can still grow up fast and their parents can keep pace by speaking with them at a higher level than maybe they were at the same age.

[patrice]

32. Good point. Especially since our real job isn't the answers, but to model HOW

to answer your own questions.

[karab]

46. Speaking opinions

Ah, the balance between speaking and avoiding offense.

[Cerridwen]

55. Should not require one be trained in self-defense.

Take offense? Okay. Tell me why and let's talk. Or tell me to fuck off and walk away.

Take offense and beat someone? Shouldn't that be, ya know, taboo or something?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

75. We are a land created with violence and the energy from our inception has continued.

You are 100% right..the spirit of fascism. We are now living in a nation that is despite people saying no, has a fascist government and that energy has trickled down to our young. Until we can rejoin the human race again, and become a truly Humane nation, this pattern will continue and increase.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

76. You are 100% right..the spirit of fascism. We were founded upon violence and that energy

has continued. Until we can rejoin the human race again, and become a truly Humane nation, this pattern will continue and increase.

[JerseygirlCT]

77. Yep. That and they seem to have had an upbringing that taught

that violence was an acceptable way to handle anger. I find it all very disturbing.

[burythehatchet]

81. Quite right. We underestimate the direct influence of our Government's action upon those

of weak mind.

[Hissyspit]

82. Revenge narratives are popular in music videos of late.

There's that Lily Allen video 'Smile.' These teens seem to be acting out that one.

[nashville_brook]

85. How Societies Regress to Become Pathocracies (this thread is relevant)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3141216


This pretty much sums up my observation -- that "Pathocracy" (organized social pathology) is at issue.

[malaise]

92. Great post

On another thread re this topic I pointed out that the girls were merely following the tone set by Bush and Cheney.
Put simply - you're with us or against us and if you're against us torture is OK.

K & R

[nashville_brook]

94. thanks! totally check out the link i posted above about "pathocracies" -- it's exactly

what i'm after here, but in much more detail.

[malaise]

98. Will do

Thanks. :hi:

[BlooInBloo]

96. Yes. Ripping on people in writing who say stupid things or who lie is FASCIST...

... And it's JUST LIKE beating them up IRL.

DUers slay me. We're a stupid, stupid country.

[nashville_brook]

99. this is an interesting response. is it to the OP?

[Karenina]

101. THIS is who you have always been...

[conspirator]

103. It's simple bullying. In bullying the role of the victim is as important as the role

of the bully. She allowed herself to be bullied because she had low self esteem but she still wanted to
be accepted by the group. The bully uses bullying simply to assert his position in the group hierarchy.
The worse bullies are not even in the top of the hierarchy, they need to prove themselves to the top dogs
and show that they will be there if they need muscle.

[screembloodymurder]

106. You've nailed it.

Bush gang wannabes.

[Echo In Light]

107. "These kids have adopted the spirit of fascism."