Not a healthy society, not at all : Where 20% hold the other 80% hostage with the threat of violence

[Wiley50]

We all see it. The one we call the 20%ers who consistently show up in the polls as still supporting the Bush Admin, the Iraq occupation, the whole nine yards.

The ones we try to reason with who quickly begin to try to shout you down. and if you persist they rapidly escalate their emotions and start shaking, and you just know that if you don't find some way to de-escalate the situation and make some kind of exit (hopefully with decorum), you are gonna suffer violence.

So we do it. We back down. Knowing that they just can't bear to see themselves as being duped and therefore stupid. And who knows what else they feel. So it keeps happening and we know that nothing is gonna be resolved and we will keep being held hostage, both individually and as a society.

But, it's just not right. We know what we know. And we won't have a free country again and the nightmare won't be over until it is.

So, what are we gonna do about it?

I mean, sometimes it gets to the point that I agree with that gun law in Florida, the one that says it's legal to shoot someone who makes you feel threatened.

And I've always been 100% pure hippie pacifist. But, two years ago, even I bought a gun. Things have gotten so strange.

Anyone have any thoughts on the issue?

(I've got to run out but I'll be back to check this thread in a bit. Help me out here fellow DUers)

[glowing]

1. Its not the 20% holding us back.. its our government officials who refuse to

listen to us.. and they know that we are way to reliant of cell phones, grocery stores, electricity, running water, and other forms of distraction to ever really retaliate.

[Juche]

2. Register more voters

The reality is America is a far more progressive and liberal country that our politics represents. The reason politics is so far to the right of the american people is that people with progressive, democrat or liberal tendencies don't vote. The influence of large corporations and the wealthy also probably pushes it to the right.

For example a white, middle aged christian may have a voter turnout of 80%. A black, latino or young progressive may have a turnout of 50%.

A person with income over 100k may have a turnout of 75%, a person with an income below 30k has a turnout closer to 50%.

If every demographic in this country actually voted (blacks & lations had the same turnout as whites, poor had the same turnout as wealty) at 75% rates or so, then our politics would be far to the left.

But as it is, people on the left don't really vote as much as people on the right. Voter turnout for non-whites is lower than whites, and is lower for the working class, poor and middle class than for the upper class.


Just as one factor, if the poor had voted as often as the upper middle class, Carter would've won in 1980 and Gore would've won in 2000.

http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2004/0104cervantes.html

Look at the graphs near the bottom. Since we are on this note, the labor movement is a massive part of progressive politics.


http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2007/05/10/labor_law_reform_not_just_for_unions.php

So if you are mad, don't just get upset. Help register voters either yourself or by funding voter drives. And encourage the growth of labor unions.



Those two things (registering democrats, who vote less often than conservatives and building the labor movement) can really stop the damage that 20% can do.

[Wiley50]

5. Turn Out? Tell it to the poor, mainly black voters of Cincinatiand Cleveland who waited in line for

8 hours only to get a provisional ballot or see their vote switch on the screen before their eyes.

I know way too much about FL 2000 and OH 2004 to buy that crap anymore

What hasn't been fixed will raise its ugly head even meaner this year

[Juche]

7. How will giving up fix anything

Yeah Ohio was a travesty 2004. But Ohio has a democrat secretary of state now and Blackwell has been subpoenaed by the house judiciary. There is some public outcry over vote fraud, huge swaths of us now know it is real and despite it the democrats won huge margins in 2006.

If you want a progressive america then register voters. Progressives, liberals and democrats generally don't bother to vote.

[Wiley50]

9. We actually had a much greater landslide in 2006

but just what has our victory really gotten us

Nothing at all has changed

[Juche]

10. Its only one election

We have a razor thin majority in the senate and don't control the white house.

Even if we win massive in 2008 with 57 senators, 250 house and the white house, chances are the senate will just filibuster everything. But we shouldn't give up, it is going to take a long time to repair the damage the religious right did to america.

If EFCA is passed for example, about 1-2 million new union members will appear every year for the next 10 years. By by 2020 we'll have 25% of our workforce in unions, those unions will demand higher wages and they will help get progressives elected in state, local & federal elections.

This is a long term strategy, the neocon movement started in 1964 and didn't see massive progress until 1980. Same with the progressive strategy, it may be 2015 before we see massive results from our efforts.

[Perry Logan]

12. Here are some things that have changed. The media will not report on anything the Dems have done.

The corporate media exists to weaken and demoralize the left. One way they do it is simply not to report much of what the Democrats have been doing.

There are countless investigations going on. Healthcare is on the table. The internet is safe for now. Our wounded vets are no longer lying around in their own urine. The Senate Ethics Committee is back in action. Many 9/11 Commission recommendations are being passed. A bill to increase financial aid for colleges has passed--the single largest increase in college aid since the GI bill. The President's signing statements are being investigated. Legislation to restore habeus corpus has been approved. The Senate Armed Services Committee has passed legislation "that would grant new rights to terror suspects held at Guantanamo Bay. The unions have a voice in the government now—as do gays, women, and minorities. The environment has a fighting chance. The House passed the Taxpayer Protection Act, to protect taxpayers against "identity theft, deceptive Web sites and loan sharks." It also makes it "easier for taxpayers to retrieve property lost as a result of a wrongful Internal Revenue Service levy and directs the IRS to notify lower-income people that they qualify for the Earned Income Tax Credit." The House approved a bill spending $1.7 billion over five years for cleaner water. There's a new House committee devoted solely to addressing the issue of global warming. And so on.

Less than six months into the 110th Congress, Senate Democrats have made significant strides in passing important, common-sense legislation that reflect the priorities of the American people. After nearly a decade of Republican control, Democrats have worked to restore fiscal responsibility in Washington and pass key legislation on Iraq policy, homeland security, troop readiness, veterans' health care, economic competitiveness, ethics reform, the minimum wage, health care, education, energy independence, stem cell research, and Gulf Coast revitalization. Democrats are committed to proving that elections do matter, and we will continue to pursue the international and domestic priorities that matter most to the American people. Together, we will take the country in a new direction.

Under Democratic leadership, the Senate has passed the following measures:

* A fiscally responsible budget: a budget that restores fiscal discipline and will lead to a surplus, while cutting middle-class taxes and funding foreign anddomestic priorities, including education, children's health care, veterans, and our troops;

* 9/11 Commission recommendations: a bill to make America more secure by giving our first responders the tools they need to keep us safe; making it more difficult for potential terrorists to travel into our country; advancing efforts to secure our rail, air, and mass transit systems; and improving intelligence and information sharing between state, local, and federal law enforcement agencies;

* Homeland security funding: legislation that provides $1.05 billion in funding necessary to address dangerous border and transit vulnerabilities left open by the Bush Administration since 9/11;

* Support for our troops: legislation funding the President's requests for Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom, including $1.2 billion in additional funding for a total of $3 billion to provide our troops in Iraq with mine-resistant, ambush-protected vehicles;

* Health care for wounded soldiers and veterans: legislation that provides $3 billion in supplemental funds for military health care and $1.8 billion in supplemental funds to the Department of Veterans' Affairs to accommodate the increasing number of new veterans returning home from Iraq and Afghanistan;

* Benchmarks for Iraq: legislation that conditions U.S. economic support for the Iraqi government on its progress toward achieving key political benchmarks;

* National Guard readiness: legislation to provide an additional $1 billion to President Bush's request for National Guard equipment needs to remedy equipment shortfalls that are compromising the quality of force training and limiting the Guard's ability to quickly respond to natural and potential man-made disasters at home;

* Continuing Resolution: legislation providing funding for the nine remaining appropriations bills that were not completed by Republicans in the 109th Congress. In passing this legislation, Democrats stayed within budget limits, eliminated earmarks, and increased funding for national priorities, including veterans' medical care, Pell grants, elementary and secondary education, the National Institutes of Health, state and local law enforcement, and global AIDS prevention and treatment;
* Energy Bill: landmark legislation to increase our energy independence, strengthen the economy, reduce global warming emissions, and protect American consumers.

* American competitiveness: bipartisan legislation to increase the nation's investment in basic and innovative research; strengthen educational opportunities in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics from elementary through graduate school; and develop the infrastructure needed to enhance innovation and competitiveness in the United States;

* Ethics and lobbying reform: a bill to slow the "revolving door" for former Senators and staff, strengthen limits on gifts and travel, expand lobbying disclosure requirements, establish a study commission on ethics and lobbying, prohibit pensions for Members of Congress convicted of certain crimes, and implement reform procedures relating to earmarks and conference reports;

* Minimum wage: legislation to increase the federal minimum wage to $7.25/hour;

* Middle-class tax cuts: the 2008 Budget Resolution provides for permanent extensions of the Marriage Penalty tax relief, the $1,000 refundable Child Tax Credit; the 10 percent income tax bracket; the adoption tax credit; the dependent care tax credit; U.S. soldiers' combat pay for the earned income tax credit; and reform of the estate tax to protect small businesses and family farms;

* AMT patch: the 2008 Budget Resolution ensures that the number of taxpayers subject to the alternative minimum tax will not increase in 2007, giving Congress and the Administration time to come up with a permanent solution;

* Head Start: a bill to expand eligibility for the Head Start program;
* Stem cell research: legislation to expand the number of human embryonic stem cells eligible for federally-funded research;

* Children's health coverage: the 2008 Budget Resolution and the 2007 Emergency Supplemental provide needed funds for the Children's Health Insurance Program;

* FDA reauthorization: a bill to greatly improve the Food and Drug Administration's oversight of drug safety;

* Rebuilding the Gulf Coast: legislation providing a total of $6.4 billion for victims of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, including $1.3 billion to complete levee and drainage repairs, $50 million to reduce violent crime in Gulf Coast states, and $110 million to repair the seafood and fisheries industries, which is vital to the region's economic recovery;

* Army Corps reform: legislation to ensure that the Army Corps of Engineers does its job more effectively and soundly;

* Disaster assistance for small businesses: legislation providing recovery assistance for small businesses impacted by the 2005 hurricanes in an effort to revitalize the Gulf Coast economy;

* U.S. Attorney appointments: legislation ending the indefinite appointment of interim U.S. Attorneys and restoring the role of the Senate in the selection of U.S. Attorneys;

* Tax relief for small businesses: legislation providing a range of deficit-neutral tax incentives designed to help small businesses grow;

* Education and training: the 2008 Budget Resolution provides for the largest increase since 2002 in funding for elementary and secondary programs; and

* Energy and environment programs: legislation increasing funding for basic science research at the Department of Energy and for energy efficiency and renewable energy programs.
http://www.apostille.us/news/democratic_accomplishments_in_the_110th_congress_leading_america_in_a_new_direction.shtml

this 110th Congress has had more roll call votes this year than any other Congress in history, almost doubling the number under the previous Congress overseen by Boehner and House Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-IL):
The House last week held its 943rd roll call vote of the year, breaking the previous record of 942 votes, a mark set in 1978. The vote was on a procedural motion related to a mortgage foreclosure bill. When the House adjourned on Oct. 4 for the long weekend, the chamber had reached 948 roll call votes, putting Democrats on pace to easily eclipse 1,000 votes on the House floor in 2007.
Last year, the Republican controlled House held 543 votes, and for historical comparison, the last time there was a shift in power in Congress, Republicans held 885 roll call votes in 1995. The Senate, which has held 363 votes this year, isn't on pace to break any records, but has already surpassed the 2006 Senate mark of 279 votes.
Much of the lack of progress can be traced back to obstructionism by conservatives.
Approximately "1 in 6 roll-call votes in the Senate this year have been cloture votes," noted a JulyMcClatchy report. "If this pace of blocking legislation continues, this 110th Congress will be on track to roughly triple the previous record number of cloture votes."
It's interesting that Boehner is criticizing the 110th Congress as doing nothing. After all, the House, under his leadership, met for just 101 days during the second session of the 109th Congress, setting the record "for the fewest days in session in one year since the end ofWorld War II."

"President Bush's success rating in the Democratic-controlled House has fallen this year to a half-century low, and he prevailed on only 14 percent of the 76 roll call votes on which he took a clear position.

"So far this year, Democrats have backed the majority position of their caucus 91 percent of the time on average on such votes. That marks the highest Democratic unity score in 51 years."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1728952&mesg_id=1728952
http://public.cq.com/docs/cqt/news110-000002576765.html

Don't let the media rhetoric fool you. The Democrats have acquitted themselves quite well--especially given their bare majority in both houses, and a relentlessly obstructionist Republican minority.

[MadHound]

3. We who?

I don't back down from these people, why should I? My opinion, and my right to state it is just as valid as theirs. And frankly, if they wish to try and resort to violence, bring it. I'm not a violent person, I have never started a fight, nor willfully brought about violence. But if somebody brings it to me, then I have no qualms about defending myself.

These people are bullies, and just like bullies they're going to continue to run roughshod over you until you stand up to them. If you continue to back down because you're afraid of the situation escalating to violence, then they've won, for they know that by making a huge fuss and freaking you out, you're going to back down. Don't do that. Don't raise your voice, don't escalate the situation, but calmly and firmly hold your ground as they continue to rant and rave. Like the vast majority of bullies when they see that you're not going to back down, they will back down.

[Wiley50]

6. I admire purists and you are one but, one question

How much time do you waste sitting in jail?

[MadHound]

11. I've never spent time in jail, why do you ask?

I don't start a fight, but I don't back down from these people either. And yes, while they yell and bluster, if you simply stay calm, but firm, they will back off. These people are like bullies everywhere, their bark is worse than their bite.

This isn't a matter of being a purist, this is a simple matter of standing up for one's self. I don't think that is a new or radical concept, nor is it somehow purist. I don't understand how you get that impression that it is.

[angrycarpenter]

4. using reason on an unreasonable person only makes them mad.

Be angry and abusive right back, that they understand, and respect. If you back down from this tactic they have won without having to do anything. It proves to them that might makes right.

If you care about your liberal beliefs, be prepared to be unreasonable too. I rarely back down from anything. I would get in anyones face over my political beliefs if challenged.

I used to be a total pacifist too but so many things have gone bad in the last few years that I feel the need to protect what is left.

They say that there are no atheists in foxholes but it is much truer that there are no pacifists in a home invasion. I hate guns but a stranger busting in my door may get a large hole in them. I would feel awful about it but you have to do what you have to do.

[Wiley50]

8. A few times i've heard bullies say this to one another:

"Don't mess with the little puny squirrelly guy. He's afraid of you enough that he won't fight fair. He'll pick up anything handy including a gun and blow your shit right away."

And with me, they're right.

I'm too old and broke down to fight fair and I don't intend to take a beating

I'm also intelligent enough to try to avoid criminal charges that I can't afford with either time or money

[Echo In Light]

14. Well put

I'm very liberal/leftist leaning, and have been since I was too young to have any comprehension of actually categorizing such views. I grew up right after the Counter Culture but always aspired to those ideals - something that's always made me feel out of step with the popular culture - and never outgrew my anti-authoritarian mindset. In fact it's only become more solidified as I've gotten older which helps give me insight into parenting our daughter. We remind her of how she always needs to question authority of all stripes, us included.

... likewise though, I'm def not passive on all counts when it comes to encountering the various strains of haters that plague the cultural landscape like a bad rash. I don't like violence at all and haven't been in a fist fight for many yrs. As for political arguments, the way I see it is that if I realize whatever point I make will fall on deaf ears, then why bother? Sure I'll defend and stand by my views, but when encountering someone who takes thinking and open mindedness as a negative quality, any point I make likely isn't going to register with such a person, or at least in any meaningful way...so, one picks where, how and why they make a stand. The older I get, the fewer people I deal with in this deranged slaughterhouse of a world, the better. I'd rather enjoy the company of lifelong family and friends.

[Perry Logan]

13. I think the left and right are going to fight. Wingers cannot be housebroken.