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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:18 PM
Original message
Sometimes we're not as liberal as we think we are
It's gotten to the point sometimes when intolerance shows its ugly head here at DU as much as it does anywhere else. I look at some of the threads and am dismayed when I see people declaring others (especially in the news) as guilty before being proven so, when assumptions are arrived at with little to no evidence, and where opinions indict before the law does.

None of us is perfect, and yes, we all have our own opinion of things, but discussing the guilt or the innocence of someone without jumping to conclusions is something we've all done--repeatedly. I just see so much calumny when there is absolutely no knowing the truth, and it's sad. I see it happen so much in real life, where the media practically fries someone without any knowledge of the real story, and the media itself becomes the sole jury, judge and yes, executioner.

In one story, we will make comments about some cop somewhere being brutal, but then we go ahead and stick up for the law arresting someone who appears to be the villain. We can't support both sides equilaterally without become ambiguous in our interpretation of the law. We have already learned that looking at everything with a solely back and white outlook is dangerous, and something we accuse others for, but we never see that same narrow-minded thinking in ourselves.

Granted--there are instances where proof is presented, often in the rarely unimpeachable form of a security camera, for instance. While there is a lengthy trial and explanation due, we still don't know the full story, but we think we do, based on that source of information. But do we? Do we really?

I've been finding myself changing more and more every day. I've come to despire the sight of blood, even in the movies, rarely read any magazines, books or other sources that talk about grisly crimes, and finding that we are too bloody, too intent on looking at violence as though it were common and ubiquitous. Well, it is, true--but we don't try to change it as much as we should. I remember when Standards and Practices, the censorship wing of the television industry said that violence was too "clean" in the 60s, and thought the solution should be to make violence more graphic. What I think happened was that it desensitized us to the violence, rather than deterred it. But that has very little to do with how things are presented anymore, anywhere.

In one way, the media remains polarized in its coverage, and we, the audience, swallow what they dole out, regardless of how colored it is. None of us can forget the way Bill Clinton was treated, and the break that the biggest criminal in the world has received since his first day in office. It's images of these that the most people in the United States look at--the most obtainable manner of communication in the world, and whether these things are true or not is another matter entirely. People don't give a shit until it affects them directly.

I hope I'm getting wiser in my later years, because the constant bickering, the infighting, the horrendous way some of us treat each other, and the way we assume the guilt or innocence of others without any kind of proof other than sketchy news article with its own built in bias gets more upsetting all the time.

Yeah, people give different excuses for this behaviour, but I don't give a damn what excuses we use. The truth is, we're doing it. We are no better than others who do the same kind of shit anywhere else, and I don't think anyone of us who has made assumptions can think we are.

Reasoned discussion, answering polemic articles with a sense of curiosity and desire to understand is one thing, but condeming someone with little to no justification is another. And while we all want to support our own choices as best as we can, attacking each other for their opinion is yet another. I recall a long time ago, when the internet and the newsgroups were a lot newer, we used to show some deference toward others. Why can't we return to those manners of yesteryear? I know it's horribly melodramatic, but why can't we all just get along? to quote someone else.

As far as taking the path of assumption in events we have nothing else to go on, why can't we look for reaons behind some of the more horrific things going on: I remember the Michael Vick case where people at least waited to hear more than rumours before proceeding to prosecute Vick (and I still think, personally, that he got away with a lot), but we go ahead and convict others without anything other than inference or innuendo against them. In some countries, the law is that someone is guilty until proven innocent--the United States law says innocent until proven guilty. I doubt there are many of us who can completely sublimate their anger and dismay when a particularly brutal crime has been committed, but I was reminded of this when I watched CSI this evening--the bubbling over of human shock and emotion ran high and caused at least one person's death in the aftermath of what was actually an accident. We've seen too much to take fact into account, sometimes, imagining the worst when our minds cannot wrap themselves around something utterly unimaginable. We are, after all, human, aren't we? And we're supposed to espouse goodwill and compassion toward others, including Republicans. Again, the news media carries a large part of the blame for the divide this country has taken in recent years. It makes news more interesting when they can have "two" sides to a story, huh?

Let's face it: things are terribly wrong right now in this country, this world. Democratic Underground was started as a place of sanctuary for those of us faced with a horrible feeling after January 20, 2001. As Democrats, we were dismayed by the virulent and completely toxic direction things were headed, and while we might have expected the worst, we got worse than the worst. Things have been catastrophic since that date, but turning on each other is not the way to go: solidarity--and different opinions--need not be at opposite poles. PLEASE--let's stop being cruel to each other here, and find ways to embrace our differences. There have been break-ups in friendships over some of the things that have been said in GD-P, for example, and most of us have such strong opinions that we cannot cut anyone slack when we believe that they are wrong and we are right. None of us is right all the time, though, and we can only reason that the other person is right as least as often as we are. Facts, not fiction. Friendship, not factions.
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nice try (NO sarcasm). Very nice try. I hope it works.
I gotta tell you, it's not likely to have much of an effect, but I sincerely hope that I'm wrong, and that it does.

All we can do is try, yes?

Redstone
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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. I've tried before
when GD-P was less toxic, but it didn't work, and it's gotten far worse since then. :shrug: Like you said, we can try.

And now, I must toddle off to bed for the night, hoping it's dreams, not nightmares that fill my head while sleeping! ;)
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Bobbieo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Hi Redstone - We won one today with Piestewa Peak - B
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's action, not opinion, that is the problem
We're all allowed our own opinions. To suggest that one can only be liberal if one refuses to have an opinion different from yours is
the antithesis of liberal thinking.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. that makes no sense
If one can call themselves a liberal, regardless of their opinions, then what does being a liberal mean?
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. You're not a liberal because you call yourself one
You're a liberal if you behave in a liberal fashion.

If we call a dog a horse, does that make it one? No, we know it because of what it looks like, how it
behaves.

Bush isn't a conservative. And trying to tell everyone what to think and say is not "liberal".
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. so it is not about politics?
How one behaves is not politics. "Fashion" is what I fear modern liberalism has become, so I think you are correct in that.

Historically, a political label was defined by a set of principles and ideals in regards to public policy and government - politics - not personal choices and preferences and individual behavior or styles of personal behavior.

Disagreeing with another person is not "trying to tell everyone what to think and say." You may be running into people who are thinking of politics in the traditional way, and expressing ideals and principles traditionally associated with the left. You will inevitably clash with them, because they will argue against libertarian opinions - very commonly expressed by people who call themselves liberals and Democrats - even if they are dressed up as "liberalism" and spoken in a "liberal fashion."

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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. What I'm saying is that the label and the reality don't always agree
Disagreeing is definitely not trying to tell people what to think. That comment was in reference to the OP
that suggests none of us say anything or do anything that might offend some common sensibility. That IS
censorship which is the antithesis of liberalism.

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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. liberal dogs and horses??
you're CONFUSING ME!!

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :scared: :hi:
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Okay
Edited on Fri Apr-11-08 04:04 PM by melody
Never mind then. I can see we won't get anywhere here. lol
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nomorenomore08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. I think the point is that you can't define for another person what they are or are not.
Certainly, it would be possible to agree on a general set of beliefs or characteristics that mark one as a "liberal," but saying somebody isn't one just because they disagree with you on something is your arbitrary opinion and nothing more.

I can't count the number of times people have trashed DU as a "so-called progressive site," and things to that effect, just because their specific view on something happened to be in the minority (or at least the apparent minority, like on a certain thread). In a way it's a slightly less ugly mirror image of Freeperville - in both cases you see people who designate themselves as true (X)'s whose job it is to ferret out the false (X)'s lest they taint the political purity of the discussion.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. yes
I see what you mean.

I wouldn't define what a person "is" in any case. If they express a libertarian or right wing point of view, I will say that I think they are expressing a libertarian or right wing point of view. Arguing about ideas is not the same thing as arguing about what people "are." If a political stance is going to be defined as a label, and any ideas whatsoever can be associated with that label, then the label doesn't mean much, does it?
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nomorenomore08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Glad we're on the same page, more or less.
And I think it's inevitable that even someone who considers him/herself a liberal will express libertarian (but hopefully not right-wing) views from time to time.

In my case, while I think that socialism, in the sense of government providing for its citizens' basic needs, is a fundamentally good idea, I also think that any socialist political philosophy needs to be coupled with a healthy respect for individual rights, strong individual liberty being an idea many would identify as libertarian. Without respect for the individual, I fear that even a "progressive" political stance could become just another form of authoritarianism.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. The poster understood my point
It was just an attempt to get around it.
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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. Ah, but that's not what I was saying
I said we have been slipping into the mire of castigating anyone who is different than ourselves in some places. Ever read GD-P? If you have, you know what I mean.

Courtly manners might get a guffaw from some people, but what's more likely to yield friends, not enemies? But there is something to be said to being polite and accepting the opinions of others while expressing your own that shows your open-mindedness. "By your leave, Sire, but methinks you are perhaps incorrect on this matter....."

We're out of energy, we're ornery, we're just completely sapped, but having the ability to still present ourselves as "good" people makes things a little easier to face. I have no idea of how many people have just become so repulsed by the snipping, the vitriol, the lack of consideration from others, and simply left DU for other boards, because many of them simply leave with no manifesto. (Hint: those who post manifestos usually return) But I can imagine that many simply have come to dread coming here with all the nastiness and fighting and don't want to face it again. If your world (RL) contained nothing but stress, backstabbing, worry, anxiety and more, why would you continue to subject yourself to an addition source of it?

As fas as actions are concerned, that is all right and good, and I firmly agree with you on that. But the internet is unique--we can't judge a person by their actions, we must take them at their word. If their word is true and earnest and sounds real, we let our guard down a bit to accept them in a world entirely made from words and our inner selves. This is unique to the human experience, because up until the internet became a part of our lives, we had never had such a world. It is indeed a challenge to those of us who led full lives before PCs, and it often makes us go into a situation where we don't account for someone deliberately messing with our heads. We believe in the basic decency of people, and it's sometimes misplaced.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Do what you like, I'll do what I like, as long as we're not breaking rules, we'll be fine
We need to keep in mind that this isn't a public board ... it is privately owned. Someone pays the bills.
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Glorfindel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well said...kicked & recommended
We have more than enough to do in defeating the rabid right wing. Let us PLEASE ease up on our fellow Democrats and liberals and focus our attention where it needs to be focused. :kick:
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Bobbieo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Right On!!!!
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. When pigs fly, that MIGHT happen.
:shrug: Let us PLEASE ease up on our fellow Democrats and liberals and focus our attention where it needs to be focused.
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ChazII Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. K&R
Wonderful words and thanks for your thoughts. It would be wonderul if we could embrace our differences.
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Snarkturian Clone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
15. You're right, ya know.
Remember the Duke lacrosse rape case? There's STILL people on this board that won't admit being wrong about that one.
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nomorenomore08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. That case was just shady and fucked-up all around.
I'm not surprised it stirred such intense emotions on both sides. And I still don't know, to this day, if those guys were guilty or not - they were certainly guilty of being assholes, but that's not a legally punishable offense, now is it? :evilgrin:
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Snarkturian Clone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. If it is,
I belong in the slammer. I'm an asshole and I approve this message.
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