FL teen beating commentary -- the NEOCON logic of "personal responsibility"

[nashville_brook]

(excerts from an email I received on the FL teen beating story -- holy crap this is good. brook)

Regarding the teen beating thing, I wonder if there's a creeping influence of neo-con bumpersticker speak and logic into our actual culture.

The Nancy Graces of the world are shouting (because it is always shouted) a version of the "personal responsibility" code that's become a catchall for this post-modern myth of individualism -- the idea that we all exist as tiny islands of economic and social productivity, and that anything bad that happens cannot be a failing of society, and therefore must the fault of the individual. It's a monster created from the backlash of the perceived abuse of social science to "excuse" bad behavior, which is mostly a myth itself (the "twinkie defense" never really happened, etc.).

In other words, no one's saying these girls weren't at fault, or don't need appropriate punishment. But their behavior is almost axiomatically a symptom of a larger problem. "They were bad" may be accurate, but it's insufficient. The reason this incident struck a chord in so many people is because we're recognizing a pattern of school-facilitated social fascism and torture that while perhaps not new, is clearly more entrenched, widespread, and savage than what we've seen before. Bullying has always occurred, and likely always will.

But the hysterically, defensive reaction of people that we need to identify the wider dynamics belies an agenda that bears a closer look. Why does someone have a vested interest in declaring that the ONLY cause of the attack was that the girls "lacked boundaries," which translates simply to, "they lacked discipline." The girls themselves were "Lords of Discipline." They were enforcing a code with a ferocity and casual, heedless viciousness that is suggested every day by screeching "law and order" element of the neocon mythology which holds that the status quo is always correct, and when it starts to unravel, the answer is not to explore why or seek solutions, but to isolate, blame, and destroy an individual.

This is the same mythology driving the bizarre rush we saw to blame the victims of Katrina for their circumstances. "They're too stupid / poor / black / criminal" etc. to deserve sympathy or help, the battle cry went, because if THEY deserve help, WE'VE done something wrong, or might have to give something up. It's a revolting cynicism rooted in "reality creators" typified by the current administration. This is societal fascism. Fuck with our team, right or wrong, and we'll destroy you, period. Express your dissent, or seek power of your own, and you become "fair game," as the Scientologists say. It is a pathology because it's sociopathic -- empathy has been purged from the equation completely, leaving only the exercise of power. This is Rush Limbaugh subverting the voting process and no one seeing anything wrong with it. This is presidential cabinet members dryly discussing what torture to use today. And worst of all is that we are told that way, the way of the cold-eyed coyote, is "reality," and our children are absorbing it.

[YOY]

1. My father pulled that "personal accountability" line on me recently

Now anytime he asks me for anything (such as mashed potatoes when he comes to dinner) I remind him that it is his personal responsiblity to get them himself and that I cannot be expected to give him them for free and unmotivated.

He's starting to get it.

[TCJ70]

12. I don't think that's using "personal accountability"...

...I think that's called just being rude, heh

[YOY]

30. A family is a microcosm of a society so it's not a bad example at all.

If one doesn't want to help your one's man because of "personal responsibility" on the level of legislature then one can pay for one's own food and cook it them self.

Also, I gave him the mashies eventually after he got the point. I still pull it out just to piss him off and show how stupid the concept is though.

[devilgrrl]

17. My parents pull that shit too.

These are two people who like to go around telling others that they're "Spending Our Inheritance!!!!!" - then expect us to take care of them when they get older.

I came right out and told my mother that if she was going to "spend our inheritance" that she had better hope that their money doesn't run out before they die. Because with an attitude like that - I won't lift a finger for them.

They have since abandoned that using that DISGUSTING cliché. As if we sit around hoping that they'll die so we can get at their money... :wtf:

I'm still waiting for my step-father to take responsibility for his abysmal parenting skills with his children.

[nashville_brook]

24. seems to me there's a GIANT conversation we should be having about parenting...

when i was a kid i didn't have the perception that people from different kinds of families had different approaches to life. boy, do i see that now. and, wanting to be a parent after hitting the snooze button on my biological clock for waaaaaaaay too long... this is so real to me. i want to be a PARENT. i don't want to visit the crap on my kids that my parents visited on me. i want my kids to function and have a function. i want to have the stay-at-home life so they know that learning and living are what we do as humans. omg -- i'm going to be the most over-protective mom ever. if that ever happens. :)

[Taverner]

2. I'm not sure the logic in this article is correct

Sure, society can have some influence on kids and adults.

But I do think Personal responsibility is lacking in our education system and our child rearing. The Abrahamic religions will argue that when they sin, it was "the devil that made me do it," thus evading personal accountability. They even have the additional bail out of "salvation" whereby all of their sins are forgiven. If this isn't evading personal accountability, I don't know what is. The perfect example to me is Ted Bundy, who died a saved Christian. By Christian logic, he will go to heaven where some of his victims may not. Is that personal responsibility?

IN our education system, we don't even touch on responsibility and ethics - those have been long since given up.

So yes it is a problem with society - we do not teach our kids individual responsibility.

[patrice]

7. That is a question I've been meaning to explore in the Religion and Theology forum:

"They even have the additional bail out of "salvation" whereby all of their sins are forgiven."

It appears that, because of "Jesus", it doesn't matter who you are what you do as long as you are baptized.

There is a concept similar to this in the Catholic Church; it is called Supernatural Grace, but "we" were also very definitely taught that you CAN go to Hell for what you do. So it appears that there are different perspectives on "Salvation".

[Taverner]

25. The Catholics have been around a lot longer, so they clued into pers resp ;)

[patrice]

55. They historically do have a bunch of stuff to be Personally Responsible for! nt

[Progressive_In_NC]

34. I'll bite here -- The Bible actually says:

I'm not asking to be attacked but I'm a Christian and I believe the bible which says the following:

Matthew 7:21-23 not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father, which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Those words are attributed directly to Jesus Christ, so it would insinuate that there is more too it that just Supernatural Grace. You can ask for forgiveness but your life needs to change and it needs to be visible to others.


Some other thoughts from the Word of God:

2 Chronicles 7:14, "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

1 John 2:4, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."


"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries" (Hebrews 10:26-27).

[Taverner]

47. Respectfully

Would Ted Bundy be considered saved, or not?

Most of his life, he was a cold blooded killer, who killed others for his own sexual pleasure. However, he converted to Christianity in prison, after he was sentenced to die. He went on record with the then-unknown "Dr." James Dobson to blame the killings on pornography.

I honestly think his conversion was sincere, because he feared Hell in his mind.

But would that constitute saved or not?

[nashville_brook]

50. two schools of thought: grace vs deeds. paulinian doctrine vs the gospels.

i have no idea what constitutes being "saved" or forgiven. but i'm a little creeped out by all the heavy christianity in the prison system. it seems to me to be forced -- like, in order to please the warden, you accept Jesus Christ Our Lord and Savior so he can go out and report to the shareholders that their investment is paying eternal dividends.

and yet, there was a prison program based on Buddhist teachings called "We're All Doing Time" that I learned about in college, and that I totally admire. so, this has got to my own bias. they're both religious systems and yet i'm not so down with one and totally admiring the other.

[Progressive_In_NC]

56. Unfortunately, I can't tell you the answer and there isn't a person alive who can

That is between him and his maker as I believe. It is not my place to judge him, except on the actions he's done. I can't see his heart or know what is really going on there.

But based on his outward actions, it would take a pretty big and forgiving God to let that guy into the good part of the afterlife.

[patrice]

57. Jesus showed us how you must do what is right without expectation of reward.

There is no quid pro quo in "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?"

We are to do what is right because it is right and for no other reason. I also want to add a caution about "Right" and "right". The assumption that somehow what I have figured out about what is right and wrong is to be the standard for all is also the opposite of what we're supposed to be.

It's not that I can't identify more or less universal truths, but beginning with that assumption of universality and then, through one means or another, coercing others into my views is Blasphemy. One is supposed to try to figure good and bad out and act accordingly, solely because what one has identified as good IS good and for no other reason AND in the knowledge that s/he COULD be wrong and may have to accept the consequences, temporal and otherwise, for being wrong. In other words, it must be on your own soul, otherwise salvation is nothing but a quid pro quo for being "good" little robots.

I am a fallen Catholic, but what I think the church was pointing to in a primitive way with that label "Supernatural Grace" is that all humans are endowed with an instinct to recognize good and bad, and though they may get it REALLY screwed up and, hence, experience the consequences of their errors, that instinct is still there, so there is still at least a possibility (probably pretty REMOTE in some people) of the person getting it right, identifying and acting on the truth in a good way.

[Juche]

10. I don't really agree

Sure, society can have some influence on kids and adults.

But I do think Personal responsibility is lacking in our education system and our child rearing. The Abrahamic religions will argue that when they sin, it was "the devil that made me do it," thus evading personal accountability. They even have the additional bail out of "salvation" whereby all of their sins are forgiven. If this isn't evading personal accountability, I don't know what is. The perfect example to me is Ted Bundy, who died a saved Christian. By Christian logic, he will go to heaven where some of his victims may not. Is that personal responsibility?

IN our education system, we don't even touch on responsibility and ethics - those have been long since given up.

So yes it is a problem with society - we do not teach our kids individual responsibility.

there are still many factors that go into a person's psychological makeup.

For one thing nutrition or environmental toxins play a major role. Western malnutrition (when you fail to get enough vitamins or minerals, even with enough calories) plays a big role in aggression and violence. I have seen studies where violence drops 30-50% with better nutrition.

http://www.hriptc.org/bib_avb.htm

http://www.organicconsumers.org/school/aggression040405.cfm

Environmental toxins (lead for example) play a role in behavior. Abuse in childhood. The SES status of the kid. Genetics. How they have seen problems solved by other people. etc.

Personal responsibility is one of many factors that go into these behaviors. I'm all for personal responsibility, as long as we still realize the dozens of other factors that go into how a person acts as well and try to address those too. I think we have to look at as many factors as possible in these situations.

[nashville_brook]

16. begs the question (for me, at least) -- that, once something horrible happens,

what's our public responsibility? i think there's a responsibility of the community to reflect and hopefully resolve to act in a positive manner.

simply/only sending the kids to prison for life doesn't seem responsible (i don't think they'll get life, but some are happy to stop there in the "response" department). i think it's a "stupid" response, in that it doesn't seek answers.

you mention nutrition/environment. did you happen to see the move Supersized? there's a scene at an "delinquent" school where they elinimated the junk food diet and started serving only organic food *in a sit-down manner, with real plates, etc.* i think there's a gestalt in that experiment. it wasn't just the different nutrition that brought change in the behavior of those kids -- it was also the ritual of eating being raised up to a "real meal" instead of the claw-to-jaw experience that's received eating a burger out of a bag. there's a beauty here -- a simple truth that valuing the building blocks of our existence promotes positive community behaviors.

[Juche]

20. I agree and I am far more worried about the lack of public responsibility

You hear about private responsibility but nothing about public responsibility.

What about the responsibility we all have as a nation to make sure kids have adequate nutrition, aren't being abused, are getting early childhood education, are learning conflict resolution and will enter a workforce where jobs that pay a living wage are obtainable? If you deny kids these things their risk of turning out poorly skyrocket.

[nashville_brook]

27. this is such a great example of "enlightened self interest" --

no one wants to live in a community where kids run wild. as a matter of fact, "good schools" are the number one reason people with children buy the houses they do. we literally choose where to live and choose to pay a premium to live in the neighborhood with the best schools.

the fact that people with children and people without children are pitted against each other in taxation is pathological. it's been done deliberately to suck funds away from schools to "lower taxes" or whatever. high quality schools are in everyone's interest...if you have kids or are simply a home owner or community member.

[Juche]

41. We need a public voucher system & universal preschool

I have heard some democrats calling for a public school voucher system where you can pick your public school. Hopefully that would eliminate some of the competition for overpriced homes. Hopefully that'll also help with other areas because then families will have more money for things like healthcare.


http://www.uwmidlands.org/html/news/content.asp?sect=7&subSect=11&contCmd=663

Regardless of the situation, studies show our society feels the effects over the long term. The Abecedarian (ABC) Project compared youngsters enrolled in a structured five-year preschool program to kids in a control group who did not. Reading scores were much lower for control group children throughout their school years. By age 15, they were nearly twice as likely to be held back a grade, and four times as likely to require some sort of special education training. By age 21, the youngsters in the control group also had a markedly higher incidence of teen pregnancy and substance use, such as tobacco or illegal drugs.

There is an added cost to society for each of these situations, in economic and human terms. By investing community resources in the educational development of our toddlers, there’s an opportunity to reduce those harmful outcomes. Rand Corporation figures indicate that for every dollar spent on early childhood education, society reaps from $1.80 to more than $17 in benefits, depending on the cost and effectiveness of the programs.

In fact, an early childhood study just released by the National Association of State Boards of Education concludes that, no matter how hard the K-12 system is pushed, the goal of No Child Left Behind cannot be met without a concerted effort to give all children access to high quality preschools.

Public investments are extremely important, and get overlooked. It is much cheaper to mindlessly cut taxes and regulations, but that just increases costs in other areas. Poor childhood nutrition and poor schools may save some tax money, but the money that goes to lost productivity, prisons or welfare is far higher than what would've been initially spent. A $300 billion investment in alternative energy can create 1.4 trillion in wealth and $284 billion in energy savings according to apollo alliance.

[Taverner]

48. There would be campouts for the good schools

I am against voucher systems, but prefer instead to a flat National funding for schools - and separate funds for transportation to school, etc.

[nashville_brook]

52. i wonder if cooperative schooling could ever emerge as a trend -- likeminded

independent educational communities. what if schooling became more of a center of life. an organizing center, like the "academy" and the "gymnasium" in ancient Greece.

we have to always be committed to the "public" in public schools. it's a social contract that we have to be loyal to or else suffer the consequences of Idiocracy. ow, my balls. that's where we're at now.

i could get very passionate about quasi-entrepreneurial solutions for crating outstanding, localized schools. neighborhood schools. arts magnets. math and science academies. a NEW progressive movement... funded by... i have no idea. but "vouchers" don't seem to be the answer.

I like cooperative models -- parents and neighborhood seniors could put in time administering and mentoring...schools could produce a product that is sold. community farming could be employed where the kids participate in learning how to grow and prepare food. urban schools could maybe produce technology or engineering -- building things.

i'm just riffing. i have utopian fantasies.

[Taverner]

21. Oh don't get me wrong, I also want community responsibility

Nazi Germany could have used some back in the day...

[nashville_brook]

29. ah -- but the brown shirts and others totally *thought* they were the most responsible of the lot.

there's a contextual component (a narrative) as to what sort of community responsibility is healthy. forming militias -- bad. forming community co-ops -- good. competition vs cooperation?

[riderinthestorm]

22. Your last paragraph is interesting...

There's a study out there somewhere that children who sit down and eat a meal/day with their family (large or small family, didn't make any difference), for even the most minimal amount of time (even 15 minutes would do it iirc), were 70% less likely to do drugs, participate in vandalism or gangs etc. etc.

I may have the data wrong by a bit but the positive effects of just this one change in family behavior was amazing.

Our culture does have some serious behavioral issues and they are reflected in the behavior of our children in episodes like the teen beating case. It's going to be tough to change it because it really is top down imho. And the top doesn't want it any different.

[Taverner]

26. I have heard a theory that meat eating has a direct cause and effect on aggression

And that eating meat itself causes your body to produce more testosterone, etc..

I don't know the details of this, and it may be proven wrong (or right)

It's just one of those things "some people say" ;)

[riderinthestorm]

36. Heh, I get it.

I actually know better than to post shit on DU without a link :hi: Thanks for the reminder but I'm not just a lazy ass, my dial-up is soooo slow, it's almost impossible to bring up anything on google.

Here's a link to an article that links the study:
http://parentingmethods.suite101.com/article.cfm/family_meals_mean_healthy_kids

If you google: "eating meals together, drug use" there are tons of links to the study.

[nashville_brook]

51. thanks for the linkee -- this was a topic of conversation at dinner and now i can share

the research. man, i love this story.

[nashville_brook]

31. it's a ritual that connects people. this is so totally one of my "issues" -- i think meals

are a primary building block of civilization. eating...preparing food...cleaning up...talking...laughing...arguing. this is the STUFF of life.

and this buttresses another rant of mine, that 2-income families are at a horrible disadvantage for being able to do the things that build healthy families. single-parent families... i can't even imagine. it makes me hurt. although, some of the closest, coolest families i knew as a kid were single-parent.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

3. The neo-cons have perverted the concept of personal responsibility

My understanding of it is that it's my responsibility to conduct myself in a way that I avoid causing harm to other people and that I do my part to contribute to my family and the community. Their idea of it is "get yours and screw everyone else". Empathy is weakness. It's a bizarro world where letting people drown in NOLA is the height of personal responsibility and wanting to help them reveals one to be a loser who doesn't believe in "accountability".

[patrice]

5. EXACTLY! They use "personal responsibility" as a Cop Out. nt

[nashville_brook]

9. that's exactly what the emailer was speaking to. Ayn Rand-ianism.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

14. And many have the nerve to call themselves "Christians".

Jesus supposedly cast people like them out of the temple and said that a camel had a better chance of getting through the eye of a needle than them getting into heaven. But you wouldn't know it from the palatial mega-churches they erect in homage to their greed and selfishness.

I bet most of those girls came from Good Christian homes. :puke:

[nashville_brook]

19. "The Jesus of Montreal" (movie) really drove this point home for me.

highly recommended.

[Taverner]

23. exactly eom

[patrice]

4. Personal accountability in current parlance assumes that everyone is identical.

By its logic, it is perfectly acceptable to kick a "dog" because it doesn't fly like a bird.

If "Pro-Life" weren't a Lie, it would be a more common understanding that everything everyone does affects everyone else, so what happened with these girls was a product of: weak parenting, confused schooling, churches brainwashing folks to attack "the Bad", predatory economics, and the dominance of the regressive reflex in the individuals involved. This is "our" future.

[Taverner]

28. Thats the problem - they are getting pers account all wrong

Pers accountability should be about ethics. The willingness to stand against something as an individual, that everyone else is for. Think Dietrich Bonhoeffer. He was the only minister to stand up to Hitler. All of the other Christians were telling him "Hitler's great! Our economy is non stop! And I got this great deal on a previously used house that used to be owned by the Cohen family..."

That is personal responsibility.

[patrice]

54. I agree. The definition of "personal acountability" is all screwed up.

It seems to be more about Punishment and when it does approach the issue of "The willingness to stand against something as an individual" that gets turned into "my" responsibility, by any means possible, to make "you" more like what I think you should be. Hence, as with these girls, "If you don't like so-and-so, I should beat you."

[nashville_brook]

32. you said a mouthful. spot-on. but -- i do think there's hope. designers, for instance,

are really taking up the fight for "localization." new urbanism addresses these concerns. in the current issue of Metropolis (architecture, culture, design mag) there's an essay by James Howard Kunstler (the famed social critic) talking about peak oil and how the future that awaits us a future of uncertainty. peak oil and climate change aren't having linear effect -- instead they are creating unpredictability.

in terms of city management and social design what this means is that people are responding by "localizing" their lives. it's a do or die situation. we can't afford to drive our produce across the country anymore. we can't afford empty skyscrapers. we can't afford fashion. "the localism of the future," he says, "will be in the food we eat and the air we breathe."

evolve or die.

[patrice]

53. Yes!!! What you are describing is an extension of the "Family" issue.

A young peace activist said to me several years ago, at the start of Bush's War, she said "Find your community."

Just as all behavior and "morality" begins in the mind and heart of the individual and nothing functions right (no family, no church, no state, no business, no school, no marriage . . .) nothing really functions right if the minds and hearts of the individuals that comprise them are not FREE and ABLE to identify right action independently, so, on a larger scale: a nation cannot be a good nation, a culture cannot be a good culture, no collective can be good if the local communities that comprise it are not REAL communities comprised of REAL humans, not just robotic slaves reacting to external factors.

[nashville_brook]

61. eggsactly -- it fell out of fashion to talk about "alienation" and "anomie," but this

was a major theme of mid-20th Century literature and social crit. people were very worried about what society would turn into when we lost all our attachments to community, family and "place." here we are. i think you can use 'alienation' as a lens to look at many (if not most) of our social ills right now.

the banking/subprime failures are a decent example. the *broker* of mortgages were completely alienated from the bankers and the community. no one cared, or held any responsibility for the repercussions of their decisions. "back in the day" you had to look the person in the eye who was going to loan you money. my fiancé is a lawyer who deals with mortgage fraud in south florida and 'the alienated process' was the tool these people have used for nearly 10 years to steal from mortgage companies, banks, title insurers and property owners. there was so much alienation in the system that the left hand didn't know or care what the right hand was doing. but moreover, without a "living community" the frauds were allowed to continue unabated until we have the mess we're dealing with now -- where, because of securities that alienated value from real property, judges don't even know how to foreclose on the bad debt anymore.

it seems like the 90s were the decade where we decided we were a-okay with total anomie. it might have started in the 80s, but it rose to the level of fashion in the 90s. you know, anomie was a basic ingredient in Seinfeld's humor. It's okay, for instance, to dismiss a potential mate for having "man hands" if you're a completely alienated person. The final episode of the series tried to show us how debased our beloved characters were with the "good samaritan" theme, where the cast is thrown into jail for not helping someone. the series finale flopped because we didn't want to look that truth in the face.

[patrice]

60. P.S. An example of localization of services for the Elderly.

I don't know how old you are or how many old people you know, but even if you aren't old, the Elderly ARE going to affect you directly or indirectly - soon.

Not all families are going to have the LUXURY of being able to take care of their Elders themselves. Not all Elders are going to be able to afford the kinds of retirement communities we see now. The government has less and less resources for Elder Care. Private Long-term Care national or regional Corporations are more interested in making a profit, and paying bonuses, than in fine tuning the levels of care that they are selling in order to provide the quality of LIFE that is truly caring and as healthy as possible. They get away with this, because there are no alternatives in the market.

This is a localized response to these national pressures: http://www.ncbcapitalimpact.org/default.aspx?id=146

My job is related to the kinds of things that this organization promotes. I've got to go look up the founder's name for you, but one of the beautiful and extremely SMART aspects of this model is its emphasis upon the fundamental NECESSITY of manifesting genuine respect for the "lowest" levels of care-givers in this economic model, i.e. the people actually providing the caring services to those who need care. Known as Certified Nursing Assistance, or as "Shabazim" in the Greenhouse model, these folks are lucky if they make $12.00 @ hr and have Health Care, let alone any kind of retirement plan to invest in.

Solidarity, nashville_brook!

:hi:

[nashville_brook]

62. i was raised by my grandparents -- i'm 42 now.

we were damn lucky to be able to pull the extended family together to care for my parents in their last years. the only reason we were able to do this was the part of the family (an aunt and uncle) was a *single-income* unit. they still didn't have the time to do everything, so the other took early retirement. this was a luxury beyond luxuries.

this is an outstanding idea from what little i read on the initial page. a cooperative assisted living arrangement. brilliant.

solidarity backatcha! thanks for helping make this thread really productive and uplifting!

[Juche]

6. The ideaology is seductive

A black and white moral system where the individual is always in control offers a very seductive outlook on life. It may be wrong, but it is alot more comforting than the alternative of having to face an endless number of variables, many of which a person can't control.

Psychological research into conservatism has found several personality traits that make one conservative.

http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/07/22_politics.shtml

BERKELEY – Politically conservative agendas may range from supporting the Vietnam War to upholding traditional moral and religious values to opposing welfare. But are there consistent underlying motivations?

Four researchers who culled through 50 years of research literature about the psychology of conservatism report that at the core of political conservatism is the resistance to change and a tolerance for inequality, and that some of the common psychological factors linked to political conservatism include:

Fear and aggression

Dogmatism and intolerance of ambiguity

Uncertainty avoidance

Need for cognitive closure

Terror management

"From our perspective, these psychological factors are capable of contributing to the adoption of conservative ideological contents, either independently or in combination," the researchers wrote in an article, "Political Conservatism as Motivated Social Cognition," recently published in the American Psychological Association's Psychological Bulletin.


I'm not trying to politicize what happened to that girl or anything. I'm just pointing out that personality traits like a fear of ambiguity and uncertainty or a desire to avoid terror probably leads conservatives to create a very simplistic black & white morality where the individual is always in control.

[patrice]

8. It's ironic that in so doing, they kill the very Mystery that their "Faith" espouses. nt

[nashville_brook]

33. i love this research -- thanks for posting this!

[Juche]

43. Bob Altemeyer is also a great research source

He has written alot about right wing authoritarianism, and his book is free online. Chapters 3 and 5 are among the best.

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

The book 'conservatives without conscience' by John Dean, which is based on Altemeyers work is also a great place to do research on the mindset of conservatives.

And so is George Lakoff . I'd say Lakoff & Altemeyer are experts at describing conservative idealogy for people who aren't already subscribers to it.

[nashville_brook]

44. yes -- i've read that... inspired some past posts of mine...

i'm very much interested in these issues. authoritarianism, these days, is one of our basic memes.

[bbgrunt]

11. very interesting topic and one that

deserves more exploration. People need to understand all the ramifications of the glorification and idealization of the individual over the group at any cost.

[nashville_brook]

13. it's such a topic of conversation lately. "collective people" and "individual people" --

we really do self-identify along these lines without even realizing it. it's the lens we see thru.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. Whenever I run into conservatives on other, often non-political boards,

either FEAR or HATRED eventually leaks out. They may say, for example, that they're against the Twin Cities getting a light rail line linking downtown Minneapolis and downtown St. Paul because "it's a waste of taxpayers' money," but if you press them on it, they come up with statements like, "It will bring the ghetto scum into our neighborhoods." (That's an actual quotation, by the way, and an obvious expression of HATRED.)

To see FEAR in action, you have to look at discussions of the invasion of Iraq. The few people who support it are still adamant that "It's better to fight them over there than over here."

The prize for stupidest appeal to FEAR is one I saw before the 2004 election, in which a young mother in a second-tier suburb of Minneapolis said that she was voting for Bush because the Russian school hostage situation had made her fear for her children's safety. How much of a ninny do you have to be to fear Chechen hostage takers in the suburbs of Minneapolis?

[nashville_brook]

18. the writer is very much coming out the environment of non-political boards (car forum)

very rank-and-file, good-old-folk kind of demo.

the Chechen fear thing really strikes a chord with me. i see this kind of thinking all the time -- rationalizing suburban non-existence because of the perceived "otherness" of "the rest of the world." it's "us" and "them." so depressing. how about "we." when it's "we" then "we" are empowered. we can change things. US can't. there's some word play to be done here with us and US as in U.S.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

38. Part of me wants the anti-public transit idiots to get what they wish for.

Especially the ones in McMansion Exurbia. They're having an increasingly difficult time finding people willing to drive 20 miles or more (with gas over $3 a gallon) to work in their stores and things for crappy wages. Gawd forbid those racist assclowns should have to interact with anyone who looks different. Let the dumbasses wake up one day and find out the grocery stores and gas stations have closed. Morans.

And I totally agree with you on the fear thing. If I had a dollar for every dipshit who told me they were voting for the Chimp because he made them feel "safe" I'd be rich. Right now a local radio station is playing a promo where one of their hosts is yammering about how "when it comes to national security and keeping my family safe there's no contest between McCain and either of the Democrats". :puke:

[nashville_brook]

40. irony of ironies -- here in central florida, it's a pork-barrel Jeb rail project that is

being used against funding for schools, healthcare. iow's the rail project will be fully funded and the other items slashed.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

42. I bet it doesn't run along any route where it would actually help low income people get around.

Let me guess, it goes from tony neighborhoods to sports arenas to upscale shopping locales?

[nashville_brook]

45. i think it's being criticised as such, but the line itself would actually encompass

all socio-economic levels. it's goes thru Winter Park (Wintah Pahk), on it's way from Sanford/Deland, on it's way to the extreme southwest to Poincianna. There's everything along this route.

We have a really bad interstate situation here -- I-4 is nearly non-functioning it's so congested. i think that economic developers actually have their back against the wall on this -- they have to show that they are keeping transportation functioning or just shutter up. it's that bad.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

46. We're in a similar situation in Greater Phoenix.

The one main artery running east-west I10 is a parking lot at least 8 hours of the day. Our light rail opens next year and I hope it's successful. They are also expanding bus service and considering trolleys in some area. We also desperately need commuter and cargo rail to get some of these trucks off the road.

[nashville_brook]

49. i totally have city-envy for places like Portland, OR and Washington DC that have

functioning, good rail systems. i have friends who will email me in the morning before they "catch the train" to work and i'm just totally jealous. me want.

[napi21]

35. I hate to say this AGAIN, but it sounds to me like the parents of

ALL the girls, including the on who was injured, failed THEIR parental responsibility of teaching right and wrong!

Noone is born thinking it's OK to demean others in public, and the internet is PUBLIC! Nor is anyone born believing the solution to feeling harmed is violent payback!

[Pithlet]

37. Possible, but it's not a given.

Kids sometimes do bad things despite the best upbringing. Sure, it a proper upbringing often makes a big difference, but there are many factors. Peer pressure. A parent working 3 jobs to stay afloat. Mental illness. That's just for a start. You can't just point at one instance and say "That's the parent's fault!" That's an easy cop out. None of us on the outside know exactly what contributed to those girls doing what they did. Human beings simply aren't that cut and dried. That's basically the point of the OP.

[nashville_brook]

39. i think people ARE born using brute force rather than reason.

kids become what they are trained to become. i think this is axiomatic; definitive of childhood. who hasn't nearly lost their mind looking after a 2-year old pitching a tantrum? or brothers and sisters who fight like animals? kids are wild by nature.

training kids away from immature/uncivilized behavior is a parent's job/responsibilty. it's also the extended family's. in a perfect world kids have involved parents and access to the wisdom of grandparents.

i hope that's exactly what we take away from this and ask ourselves if we have a society where parents are enabled or disabled from providing a functional unit? Or, are we stretched too thin working 2 or more jobs to pay the mortgage? lets look at communities that foster better parenting and see if there's anything we can do better emulate them, rather than becoming the Lords of Discipline...becoming what we behold.

[screembloodymurder]

58. In no way was this "school-facilitated".

Didn't happen at school or because of school.

[GTurck]

59. Personal responsibility?

I think we need to have a definition and understand its limits. For instance the other day I was in Wal-Mart (yes I shop there)using the washroom and there was a woman in the next stall who left without washing her hands. I saw her leave and realized she worked there in the food department. She definitely did not exercise personal responsibility and so I informed one of the floor supervisors.
Washing one's hands; wiping one's behind; not throwing garbage out the car window; obeying the speed limit are all expressions of personal responsibility. But saying that does not mean that everything that happens is only about 'personal responsibility'. Somethings are beyond our control like poverty, killer storms and jobs shipped overseas by corporate fiat.
I have not kept up with the story of the beating and so don't know any details but hitting another human being is definitely in the realm of personal responsibility and self discipline - mainly the same thing.
Maybe we should use the older term,self discipline instead.

[derby378]

63. Without responsible citizens, you cannot have a functioning democratic society

I don't give a flying fuck what sort of "code" those teenage hoodlums were following when they beat that poor girl into unconsciousness. If you want to seek solutions in this regard, start with the parents of those girls. Let's interrogate them as to why their Little Miss Perfects turned out to be so bad in the first place. In the meantime, throw the fucking book at those girls - and at the kids who beat that North Carolina teacher senseless, too.