Why on earth do otherwise sane Americans believe they are serving their country

[elocs]

by joining the Guards or the Army so they can go to Iraq? I mean joining up so they can go to Iraq? Are they so naive to swallow everything that Bush and the neocons tell them? If Bush attacked Canada would they be lining up to save us from the evil Canucks? How can they see anything noble or just if furthering the tragedy in Iraq?

[Poll_Blind]

1. A lot of good people just believe the government. And that OK so long as...

...the government gives a shit about them. What was it Robert Byrd called our men and women in uniform....? "Our national treasure." And I think that's a fitting description.

  It's not about sanity or insanity. It's not about intelligence or the lack of it.

  It's about trust.

  And some people will trust the government even if it's fairly obvious from all other stimuli that the government is run by someone who is not looking out for their interests, in any sense of the word.

  Americans have been culturally trained to fight, to want to fight, that which we see as oppressive outside of our country. Nice little combination of xenophobia and ignorance.

  Many of us are curious and expose ourselves to much bigger, more complex views of the world and the people in it. However, that is not everyone's choice. For those people who are not driven by economics into the military, for those who join up because they have been incurious about this years-long pointless war and who give a cursory examination to the facts before joining...for them, I wince.

  They are maybe for a time long ago, but more likely (in my opinion) for a time long off, maybe never to come. In the mean time, they are cannon fodder.

PB

[alfredo]

4. You also have to put yourself into the mind of an 18 year old. The

hero hormones are raging at 18. You feel immortal. You want to be part of the team, you want to belong to a tribe. You want to prove your courage and strength. You think that is what you need to do to be a man.

Of course maybe they just need a job.

[Beausoleil]

24. When I was 18

My "tribe" was the peace movement.

When I was 20, I joined the Navy. (Not for any motivation to join another tribe, life just interfered.) Go figure. My intent was to serve my four years and get out, which is exactly what I did. I had no illusions about my government's benevolence, or that I was doing my "duty" out of any sense of patriotism. But that's just me. Most of my fellow seamen joined out of a sense of "need a job".

What I don't understand is that there is no comparable "movement", underground ot otherwise, for 18 year-olds to be a part of. Yeah, there is a peace "movement", but it's nothing like the anti-war counter-culture of the late 60s, early 70s. And the military is much more greatly romanticized than it was in 1975.

Also, JMHO, 18-year-olds are quite a bit less mature than back then.

[alfredo]

25. The draft is the difference. It wasn't just the draft, but the unfairness

of the draft. If you were rich, you went to school or the Guard. If you were poor or black, you went to Nam. You also had to be Christian to get a CO Deferment. They were the only ones considered moral enough to have a conscience. Jews, Buddhist, Atheist need not apply. When I told them I was Atheist they put down Protestant as my religion. He might have done me a favor by doing that because Atheist were harassed mercilessly.

[Beausoleil]

28. Fortunately, the draft was stopped

when I was 18.

But, yeah, I know how polarizing the draft was. I grew up figuring it would get to my age group.

One friend of mine was drafted after he left the Catholic seminary. Instead of giving him a CO, he was trained as a translator. He was also a musician who later went on to perform "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" in Vietnamese.

[alfredo]

33. I lucked out, I ended up in intelligence, morse intercept. Of course I have

lost some hearing and I'm in the middle of filing a claim.

[sharesunited]

2. Some of the vets who have posted on DU explain it pretty consistently.

It is a feeling of being the most alive with your fellows-in-arms facing danger and death.

Some combination of high on adrenalin and filled with pride, confidence, comradeship.

It has surprisingly little to do with geopolitical beliefs at all. Those are almost irrelevant.

The problem is it feeds the war, because only war can provide the feeling. Does sound like a paradox with a downwardly spiraling trajectory doesn't it?

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[solinvictus]

14. Wow...

..great opinion of our men and women in military service. Kudoes to reinforcing the "hate the military" stereotype that smears Democrats.

[KitSileya]

22. Why do you think it is such a wrong analogy?

As Charlie Young said on the West Wing,

"Gangs give you a sense of belonging, and usually, an income. But mostly, they give you a sense of dignity. Men are men, and men'll seek pride. Everybody here's got a badge to wear. "I'm the Deputy Communications Director." "I made Presidential Classroom." "I know the answer. I'm going to Cornell." You think bangers are walking around with their heads down, saying, "Oh man, I didn't make anything out of my life. I'm in a gang." No, man! They're walking around saying, "Man, I'm in a gang. I'm with them."

Is that so different from what the people on this thread are describing with regards to young men and women and the armed forces?

[cynatnite]

30. You're saying that men and women in the miliary is the same as being in a gang?

:wtf: Are you fucking insane?

[Lance_Boyle]

31. the comparison is very apt in terms of psychological drive to join

and be part of the "in group." Even the hazing rituals are similar. I don't think there's any denying that.

Of course, there's also the small matter of people who were already gang members joining the military. For training purposes. http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=41005&archive=true

[cynatnite]

32. Okay, let's go back to the real world...

You should start first by asking those vets of DU why they joined. Many of us joined for a varity of reasons none of which fit your uneducated opinions. There are even some who were drafted.

I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find one or two that needed a sense of belonging because their home life sucked and they wanted someone to love them.

I don't know. I'm not them and I'm not going to PRETEND to know why anyone joins the military.

Since you've never walked a mile in my shoes, my husband's shoes or any of the shoes of my relatives who have served...some were drafted and some joined...you shouldn't talk out of your ass. It makes you look foolish.

And there is a good reason why there is a gang problem in the military. It's because of this fucking insane war and because of that fucking insane president we've got. They're running out of troops so they lowered recruiting standards. It's been that way for a few years now.

Please go check it out and please, talk to some vets here. Don't make assumptions about a group of people you don't know.

[Lance_Boyle]

34. edited

to not be snarky. your experience is yours, and mine is mine.

[cynatnite]

35. You have some sort of experience that says...

majority of folks who join the military do so because they want to belong? :crazy:

[KitSileya]

41. No, I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that the experience is analogous - the feeling of belonging, the pride in the group, the hierarchy, the orders, all these things are similar. Gang members aren't ashamed of being in gangs, just like members of the armed forces aren't ashamed of being soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines. They take pride in their affiliations, and they gain pride from being members. We might think that is wrong, but that doesn't change the facts of the situation.

Besides, some of us think that American military in Iraq should be just as ashamed over obeying orders as gang members in LA should be for selling drugs. But then, I don't worship the American military, nor do I think that membership in the armed forces automatically make every action you take legal and worthy of admiration. The lower ranks have moral responsibilites just as much as Generals do.

[treestar]

38. The trouble with that one

Is they are serving their own purposes, not the country. Why do we have to thank them for their service if this is so? They should thank us for paying them for the great experience and living life to its fullest.

Or something. But I really think that there are just some who are really freepers and believe all that crap. Others are those with no other good economic prospects - the military is forever advertising itself not with "You'll get to go to war and get that great comrades-in-arms feeling," no, they advertise that they will pay for your education.

[Lars39]

3. Economic draft

[lonestarnot]

5. When one is inexperienced and young and is promised the moon and all the stars

and lied to about a future... well :shrug:

[Selatius]

6. The prospect of war is exciting for many 18 year-olds.

They are pumped up by war stories and war films of previous wars extolling the virtues of fighting for a cause greater than yourself. Of course, it all falls apart if the war you are sent to fight in happens to be one started on false pretenses. Then you're simply there to see your friends aren't cut down on the field of battle.

[elocs]

7. I have a 19 year old godson who is going to Afghanistan in June.

He screwed up in high school so badly that he ended up going to one of those Nation Guard challenge academies. He graduated and joined the Army 3 months later even though he would have been give a scholarship to help him go to college. When I talked with him last week he said he didn't care about politics. I told him he better care since that will determine where he is going and also about what kind of benefits he will receive when he gets out or even what kind of care he would receive if wounded.

He is developing this gung-ho attitude, but it often does not matter how good of a soldier one may be when you run over an ied or are near a suicide bomber. I am really not as concerned that he will lose his life as he will lose his soul (at age 15 he got freaked out at a movie when a little girl turned into a zombie and had to have his friend's mom drive him home from the theater). I know he will never be the same when he learns that war is not like playing Halo. It will be the end of innocence.

[Captain Angry]

8. You can't exactly tell them that it's not noble to serve.

If they honestly believe they're serving their country, and protecting us, it's noble.

If they're serving because their dad did, their grandpa did, etc...

Look at the camaraderie of the WWII vets. They signed up and were sent to help the world. Our current generation (in general) signs up for the same reason. They're just being misused by the current administration.

That isn't the fault of the brand new soldier. It's the fault of the Commander in Chief.

[RedCappedBandit]

13. On the other hand..

one might say it is the fault of a brand new soldier. By enlisting to fight in a war you know to be unjust you are enabling the injustice to continue, no?

[Captain Angry]

15. Many enlist because they have no other opportunities.

Choosing to stay home and unemployed or enlist and hope you end up actually getting a new skill and the GI Bill are kind of awful choices.

I don't think anybody signing up is enabling anything. If all you hear is about terrorists coming to get us, and you want to sign up to protect the country from them, go Army.

My brother signed up for the Army after 9/11. He thought he'd be trained and then be part of a new force protecting the USA from more terrorist attacks. He didn't know that the administration would attack the wrong country.

New enlistees might believe what Bush has said (not what he's done) in that we'll be reducing the troops overseas and so they might believe that they'll be going to the peacetime Army.

Not saying they're right, but it is what some of them are thinking.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Hmmm where is this talk that this war is unjust?

Do pray tell me.

There are days...

When the country finally wakes up to that little fact... the empire will be dead

But not a second before

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. Military service is still an honorable tradition

But I have to admit I really don't understand why anyone would enlist today while we are occupying Iraq in an illegal and immoral war.

[elocs]

16. I cannot understand joining up during a hopeless war either.

I was in college during Vietnam and always got these brochures from the military encouraging me to enlist, which I thought was pretty stupid considering. The irony was that since my dad had been a 100% disabled vet I was going to college on the GI Bill and I was in the second draft lottery and my number was 358. The only way they would ever get me was if I enlisted.

[Breeze54]

45. Not all the Guard joined during the Iraq invasion. Many joined yrs before.

Blame Bush! He federalized the Guard. I doubt any of them thought they'd be in the ME in 1999 or 2000.

[hack89]

43. Not everyone thinks is illegal or immoral nt

[Johnny Harpo]

11. The Reason The Military Wants Youth...

is that they will do what they are told with no guestions.

For the most part they haven't learned to critically think, question and refuse.

And lets not forget, according to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, (unless they threw this clause out)no American GI has to follow an un-lawful order.

Of course they have to be able to realize its an un-lawful order.

[elocs]

21. Enlistment oath: the first thing sworn to is to defend the Constitution of the United States.

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

I discussed this with my godson before he enlisted, that his first obligation is to the Constitution of the United States. It is a moral dilemma for a soldier when he or she is given what they perceive are illegal orders. Do they obey or not? It's about choices and consequences. If a soldier obeys what they believe is or might be an illegal order and they have doubts about it, then it may haunt them the rest of their lives. If they refuse, then they may face serious consequences, especially if their decision leaves them hanging.

If a soldier will obey any and every order without question, whether it be torture or the killing of innocent civilians or a coverup of any of that, willing committing atrocities simply because they were given orders. That was the refrain of the Nazis at Nurenberg. That is evil.

I think of the My Lai Massacre, with which most of us are familiar. From Widipedia:

Soldiers went berserk, gunning down unarmed men, women, children and babies. Families which huddled together for safety in huts or bunkers were shown no mercy. Those who emerged with hands held high were murdered. ... Elsewhere in the village, other atrocities were in progress. Women were gang raped; Vietnamese who had bowed to greet the Americans were beaten with fists and tortured, clubbed with rifle butts and stabbed with bayonets. Some victims were mutilated with the signature "C Company" carved into the chest. By late morning word had got back to higher authorities and a cease-fire was ordered. My Lai was in a state of carnage. Bodies were strewn through the village.

Then a young soldier, a helicopter pilot, had the courage of his convictions:

Warrant Officer Hugh Thompson, Jr., a 24-year-old helicopter pilot from an aero-scout team, witnessed a large number of dead and dying civilians as he began flying over the village - all of them infants, children, women and old men, with no signs of draft-age men or weapons anywhere. Thompson and his crew witnessed an unarmed passive woman kicked and shot at point-blank range by Captain Medina (Medina later claimed that he thought she had a grenade).<18> The crew made several attempts to radio for help for the wounded. They landed their helicopter by a ditch, which they noted was full of bodies and in which there was movement. Thompson asked a Sergeant he encountered there (David Mitchell of the 1st Platoon) if he could help get the people out of the ditch, and the Sergeant replied that he would "help them out of their misery". Thompson, shocked and confused, had then a conversation with Lieutenant Calley, commanding officer of the 1st Platoon, who claimed to be "just following orders". As the helicopter took off, they saw Mitchell firing into the ditch.

Thompson then saw a group of civilians (again consisting of children, women and old men) at a bunker being approached by ground personnel. Thompson landed and told his crew that if the U.S. soldiers shot at the Vietnamese while he was trying to get them out of the bunker that they were to open fire at these soldiers. Thompson later testified that he spoke with a Lieutenant (identified as Stephen Brooks of the 2nd Platoon) and told him there were women and children in the bunker, and asked if the Lieutenant would help get them out. According to Thompson, "he said the only way to get them out was with a hand grenade". Thompson testified that he then told Brooks to "just hold your men right where they are, and I'll get the kids out". He found 12 to 16 people in the bunker, coaxed them out and led them to the helicopter, standing with them while they were flown out in two groups.

Returning to My Lai, Thompson and other air crew members noticed several large groups of bodies. Spotting some survivors in the ditch Thompson landed again and one of the crew members entered the ditch. The crew member returned with a bloodied but apparently unharmed child who was flown to safety. The child was thought to be a boy, but later investigation found that it was a 4-year-old girl. Thompson then reported what he had seen to his company commander, Major Watke, using terms such as "murder" and "needless and unnecessary killings". Thompson's reports were confirmed by other pilots and air crew.

I would hope that most of our soldiers would do what Thompson did, but unfortunately I have my doubts. I would hope that my godson has as much moral courage as he does courage to face combat and war. I am sure this was an ordeal for Hugh Thompson, but I am proud that he had the courage of his convictions and I would hope his story is one that all children would learn in school (I doubt that happens). In 1998 Thompson received a medal for his actions at My Lai.

[treestar]

39. Bingo

Weren't they even up-front about this during the VN era when they set the draft age to the year the guy turns 20? That was the ideal age for being physically the strongest yet not old enough to question authority.

[The Straight Story]

12. I wish someone would save us from the Canucks, other than American Hockey teams

Who keep kicking Canadian ass :)

[Xenotime]

17. Good brainwashing?

[Thothmes]

18. For the same reason

we signed up in the mid 60's. To save the world and America from those commies in North Vietnam. Of course back then if we didn't sign up, LBJ just drafted our butts in his army.

[Echo In Light]

19. "Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers." George Carlin

[The2ndWheel]

20. We all serve the state and the corporation in some way

They're the two dominant institutions of our day, owning and controlling more of life as each day goes by. Sometimes you can't even tell the difference between the two(and that line is naturally blurring more and more). We're all just expendable, interchangeable, and easily replaceable cogs in the machine.

[elocs]

23. Try and cut down trees without an ax or a saw.

They are simply tools which can be used for good or for evil. The same can be said for guns, also. Soldiers and armies are also tools which can also be used for good or evil. I think of the song "Universal Soldier" written by Buffy Sainte-Marie and probably made most well known by Donovan:

He's five feet two and he's six feet four
He fights with missiles and with spears
He's all of 31 and he's only 17
He's been a soldier for a thousand years

He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an atheist, a Jain,
a Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew
and he knows he shouldn't kill
and he knows he always will
kill you for me my friend and me for you

And he's fighting for Canada,
he's fighting for France,
he's fighting for the USA,
and he's fighting for the Russians
and he's fighting for Japan,
and he thinks we'll put an end to war this way

And he's fighting for Democracy
and fighting for the Reds
He says it's for the peace of all
He's the one who must decide
who's to live and who's to die
and he never sees the writing on the walls

But without him how would Hitler have
condemned him at Dachau
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He's the one who gives his body
as a weapon to a war
and without him all this killing can't go on

He's the universal soldier and he
really is to blame
His orders come from far away no more
They come from him, and you, and me
and brothers can't you see
this is not the way we put an end to war.

Just something to think about. All things done by U.S. soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, good or bad, are being done in our name. Your name and my name. Maybe it is as Pogo said: "We have met the enemy and he is us".

[Karenina]

26. Miseducation.

Smedley Butler: War is a Racket

http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

[EstimatedProphet]

29. Why do they believe they're serving the country by staying here driving SUVs?

You know, the "I have more important priorities than to go to Iraq" line.

[T Monk]

36. shallow bitter lives in many cases- new 200k kia benefit may influence

some to put their kid in harm's way.

[depakid]

37. America über alles

No different, really, than most other expansive nations throughout history.

[elocs]

40. It is one thing when it's very young people who are enlisting,

but I really cannot understand those who are older and still swallow the propaganda that they are really serving their country by going to Iraq or Afghanistan.

My godson told me last month that he was going to Afghanistan for a year and it was just last week that I heard Bush saying that those who deployed starting in August would only go for a year rather than 15 months. I wonder if that change was already in the pipeline. I think, though, that since my godson was being deployed early that maybe he was already included in the change.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On edit after reading through all of the thread again: actually, my starting the thread had to do with a show on tv I saw last night where a guy's wife had enlisted because she wanted to serve her country by going to Iraq. The plot had to do with the fact that they had some embryos frozen before she went over and some pro-life nut case who was against that stole some frozen embryos that included theirs and the embryos got too warm and were no longer viable. The husband ended up murdering the pro-lifer because his wife was killed in Iraq and there was no chance that he could have any of their children because the embryos were destroyed. This couple were not kids, so it made me wonder about that and why older people would enlist at this time.

I get it with the kids. I hear all of the ads on the radio encouraging young people to enlist in the Guard so they can get money for college. You would hope these kids would think it through, consider what they might have to do or go in order to earn that money. It is presented like all they will be required to do is help flood victims or put our forest fires--not fight in some foreign and hopeless war.

[Hippo_Tron]

42. The propaganda doesn't say anything about Iraq

The commercials for the National Guard talk about how you work your normal job and then get called up to serve during natural disasters.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

48. ahh those commercials...

the way they spin everything you have to "read between the lines and listen to the static".
Everybody knows by now if they enlist they will go directly to Iraq!

[mwb970]

44. Soldiers killed in Iraq are said to have died "defending America".

But from what? The main thing America needs defending from is its president.

[KG]

46. the main thing america needs is to stop believing in fairy tales.

[AngryOldDem]

47. My daughter's boyfriend is 20

He is set to go to Kuwait in about two weeks, followed by a possible 15-month tour in Iraq after that. Serving in the military is something that he has wanted to do since he was a child. Some people, for want of a different explanation, just feel called to certain career paths, and some feel such a strong duty to their country that military service is how they express that. I think it is as simple as that, and we should accept it for what it is, and offer as much support as we can.

And given that my 17-year-old is both alternatively scared, heartbroken, and angry at the fact that her first love is going off to war that she vehemently does not support, I choose not to discuss this particular aspect of it with her. The last thing she needs right now is any second-guessing or judgment of motive. We all just want the kid back in one piece by sometime in 2010.

[bushmeister0]

49. It's sad to think that a lot of the15 year-old kids in my neighborhood,

the nuckleheads with the bills on their baseball caps turned sideways, will be on their way over to Iraq in just a few years. When you think of the word "soldier" you think of a grownup, but these are KIDS fighting over there. That's why they call it the "infantry" after all. The older men who send them there are obviously more valuable and needed here at home, rather than over there catching bullets.

Speaking for my neighborhood in Philly, most of these kids will be suckered into the job by the flashy ads or the agressive recruiting going on here. Every strip mall in the area has a recruiting office from one branch of the military or the other. At the tender age of 17 or 18, most young men and women aren't able to resist the call to "duty" especially when they're not old enough to remember past wars and they're faced with the choice of either working at Wal-Mart for the rest of their lives or going to foreign lands and excitment, then coming home to a college education (if they come home).