WTF is up with all the animal rights stuff all of a sudden?

[El Pinko]

There's the ads, and a lot more posts about this stuff.

I personally have some sympathies with animal rights activists - I love animals, and in addition to cutting down on meat, I try to get what I use from humane sources.

I think vegetarian and veganism are admirable lifestyles, and although they sometimes go to extremes, I think PETA has done a lot to raise awareness and change behavior where it concerns animal welfare (KFC boycott, etc.)

But right now, our economy is in freefall, fallowing 25+ years of destruction of the middle class and a gaping wealth/income gap.



Is this some sort of effort to distract well-intentioned people from the FRONT-BURNER ISSUES of ECONOMIC JUSTICE (and the upcoming election)?

Is it about trying to make it look like DU is dominated by PETA, Free Mumia, ELF, etc - extremist but not ideological-left groups?

I don't get it...

[Kolesar]

1. Did you hear about the food riots in other countries?

They are fighting for staples like rice. Several countries have banned exports.

edit: I have serious doubts about the "food system" as it is in place right now.

[Junkdrawer]

2. Say...you don't think there are trolls trying to divide us, do you?

Because we all KNOW that's impossible.

[Breeze54]

3. Animal Rights are not new and have been in the news for a long time...

But I can read about Iraq, the economy, the primaries, a woman drowning herself and her kids, Zimbabwe, Sudan, China, Tibet and animal rights issue's and drink coffee and listen to progressive radio; at the same time; while mulling it over and typing or reading on DU. ;)

[OwnedByFerrets]

4. Thank you for that....

;-)

[El Pinko]

6. I get what you're saying - and I'm not saying there's not a place for these stories...

... it just seems that there are a LOT more of them, all of a sudden.

Maybe it's just that the animal rights advertising is driving more interest in the topic now.


I feel terrible for animals that are suffering, but I'm just a lot more worried about himan kids that aren't getting enough to eat and adults losing jobs and homes.

[truedelphi]

14. I also worry that behind many good intentions there are

Unintended consequences.

If you examine the history of ecology on this continent, you have of course a fairly stable ecology while the continent was under the management of the Native Americans.

But then the white man came along, and by the 1880's the buffalo were nearly extinct.

So the buffalos' impact on the continent - the fifty million animals who once dead and gone were no longer adding the manure they once provided, so that within two and a half generations, we have the dust bowl of Oklahoma and parts of Texas.

Now there is this craze afoot to say that eating beef is bad. I do NOT wanna say that all aspects of beef eating, dairy consuming are good.

But where I live, the dairy farmers have very beautiful meadows surrounded by forests. If everyone stopped consuming all beef products tomorrow -- these animals would be slaughtered. It is very expensive to feed and care for something as large as a dairy cow.

Then what? One thing that would happen is that vineyards would replace these fields. As the vineyards come in, there is a total loss of habitat for every wild thing - the birds, the badgers, foxes, rabbits, coyote, lizards, and the deer.

One sports page writer has already written one column devoted to this - the farms are going away, the housing developments of 2000 to 2005 replacing them and the deer population numbers are withering - he was estimating that about 15% of the deer population goes under each year due to vineyards.

Although an animal's death is different through loss of habitat than to slaughter house techniques, a dead animal is still dead. When the deer have no where to live and forage, they die on the highway and through malnutrition. Later this week, I plan on getting out with my camera to take pictures to show people of what a meadow and forest looks like, with cows and horses on it, compared to a clear cut, early stage vineyard, with its billowing clouds of pesticides. The former contributes loads of oxygent through its greenery, the later depletes the system of oxygen through the overuse of pesticides.

Plus last week I was told by an environmentally-minded friend that the water is being illegally diverted from flowing from the creeks to the lakes by the vintners.

[sammythecat]

15. "I feel bad for the animals and all that, it's just that..."

That's not quoting you, but I've seen statements just like that. Statements that IMPLY that everything is an "either or" situation. People that were actively concerned about poverty, iraq, injustice, the economy, etc. last month are just as concerned this month. I'm concerned about all these issues as well as the rights of animals. I don't worry about this or that on alternating months. We can do more than one thing at a time.

Surely in your time here on DU you've read discussions about this many times. I have. And every time there is someone remarking that someone is concerned about whales or whatever and "why don't they express outrage at what's happening in Africa, Iraq, poverty, etc. And every time there will be a response that we can do, and concern ourselves with, more than one issue at a time. Do you not believe this is possible? Are you concerned that because you see a "LOT" of animal rights advertising that DU and it's members are losing our interest in everything, or ANYTHING, else?

That's what I get out of your post. That's the implication I read. Is that it?

[El Pinko]

20. I think if things get worse for working people and middle-class, every other issue will be SCREWED

There is a MAJOR FINANCIAL CRISIS going on right now that may very well lead to double-digit unemployment in the near future and those who are employed are going to have trouble meeting basic expenses.

When that happens, PETA, Greenpeace, Amnesty - you name the group, they will see their donations plummet along with interest in their causes. Hungry people don't give a crap about anything except eating.

Reading the posts on this thread, I've come to the conclusions that it's not anything shady, it's probably a case of the ads stimulating a bit more interest than usual in the topics - which is not a bad thing.

But I do think that the economy is in an emergency situation now, and the government is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic while regular people, not knowing what to do, are just sitting down with their seat belts on (because the life preservers are only available in First Class).

Unfortunately, we have 7 more months of an incompetent in the White House - that's seven more months of inaction and economic deterioration. A nationwide slow-motion Katrina.

[sammythecat]

22. I see where you're coming from now.

Thanks for the explanation. I took you all wrong there.

I agree with your "paranoid suspicions" and I'm not being at all sarcastic. The middle class of my childhood (50's & 60's) is fast becoming extinct. In fact, I think it's gone. For an average blue collar family both spouses better have decent jobs or they can't do it. And if they both have full time work they can pay the bills but who raises the kids?

My father died when I was 7. He had no insurance and my mother was left with a son and daughter and both her parents. She worked in the office of a large local department store as a copy writer. Things were very tight, but she made it happen. No way in hell could she do that today. No way in hell could she even TRY. Back then most, and probably all, of my friends in our neighborhood had mothers at home and families could afford a late model car and took 1 and 2 week vacations away from home. They didn't go to Europe, but they could rent a nice place at the shore or the mountains. One blue collar wage earner could support a family and do it relatively comfortably.

I really don't know how some people do it today. Well,maybe I do know. They do it by the skin of their teeth. They just barely manage. There is no margin for error and it's a grueling struggle.

I drive 120 miles round trip to work. How much higher can gas prices get before I can't afford to work there and the only work close to home pays barely half what I make in the "city". It doesn't really seem to me that there has been near the outcry over this state of affairs as there should be. We've been heading down this road for quite a few years now and I fear the time when we could have comfortably changed directions has passed. Right now there's too much wrong with too much stuff and we'll be lucky to avoid a depression. I agree with your thoughts about a looming crisis. We're fast on our way to a second or third world economy of the wealthy few and the masses of the poor, and IF we ever do manage to start restoring the middle class, the process is going to be very slow and painful.

I hope I'm not misreading you again, but if I get you this time it's that the economy is the biggest threat we face. In fact it might be bigger than all the others combined and the alarm bells should be ringing off the walls. Your Katrina analogy is not an exaggeration. It's that serious.

[defendandprotect]

27. Hungry/impoverished people can't fight for democracy . . . that's why ---

waiting until fascism takes hold is a mistake ---

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

37. don't forget about Brittney or Paris destractions...

[mainegreen]

5. All of a sudden?

DU has always has animal rights activists of varying degrees here.

:shrug:

[varelse]

7. The ads are helping pay DU's bills

Apparently, the animal rights groups think we're a good "target audience" so they've ponied up (ugh, no pun intended :eyes:) for some ads on the front page. It might be possible for DU'ers to affect the content and theme of those ads, and thus "change the face" of DU, by encouraging other activist groups or businesses to place advertising here.

[LeftyMom]

8. DU's had animal rights supporters since I started lurking

That's the main reason I quit lurking, actually. And as soon as the groups were created, we got one and it's one of the most active on the forums. So we've been here and discussing this stuff for ages- there are great threads about all kinds of animal issues in LBN, GD, E/E, Pets and V/V/AR all the time.

Hell, this isn't even the first time AR related advertising has led to an outbreak of threads in GD.

I don't think any of the usual AR suspects are posting more than normal. I know I'm not. It looks to me that the difference right now is that people who aren't part of DU's established AR contingent are talking about it. Which, I suspect, is the best the advertiser could hope for.

That said, I think DU as a community is much more respectful of AR than it used to be, and at the risk of taking a sliver of credit, I think that's largely because of AR supporters who have stood up for our beliefs and continued to articulate them well in the face of everything from gentle disagreement to mocking to outright trolling. I know some well-respected posters have come to respect our side more, if not necessarily to agree, through dialog. But that's a long term trend, not a recent phenomenon at all.

[flvegan]

9. Combination of things.

I think the ad itself started 4 or 5 threads in GD recently. There has also been a lot of activity (and threads related to) the sealing disaster in Japan, puppy mills on Oprah, the Westland/Hallmark slaughterhouse abuse and meat recall, etc. Also, as more and more folks become aware of some of the atrocities that are out there, it's naturally going to be discussed more.

I don't think anyone is trying to make it look like DU is "dominated" by anyone, however I do like that vegetarian advocacy groups think DU is left enough and open minded enough (and big enough) to be worth throwing some dollars at.

[pitohui]

10. black ops/divide and conquer tactics...standard

PETA is black ops, there is no way that these folks are for real, they go out of their way to smear all progressives as ninnies and fools that no intellectually rigorous person would want to be associated with, they take a double whammy of siphoning off the energy of not-so-bright but well-meaning people down a path of distraction and they also drive away anyone with a working brain who resents being manipulated by bullshit publicity antics

same song, second verse, while trolls stir up division over who or who does not eat the right foods to be admitted into heaven, then the real issues of the day do not get addressed

[flvegan]

11. "PETA is black ops" Damn, but that's your best yet.

I don't know where you come up with it, but you should be on a stage somewhere.

[Mountainman]

18. Yeah, and they have naked girl protesters too! Very bad indeed!

[Dutch]

12. For some of us, animal rights IS a "front-burner issue"

And campaigning for them is 100% compatible with fighting tooth and nail for economic justice.

[bean fidhleir]

13. You took the words right out of my mouth. "Rights for all" is practically the definition of

econ. justice.

[El Pinko]

21. Animals have no rights (or responsibilities.)

It's the responsibility of humans to treat them humanely and see to their welfare.

The notion that a being incapaple of rational thought could have rights is absurd.

[InvisibleTouch]

25. "Incapable of rational thought"

I always have to take issue with that kind of statement. How would you possibly know what goes on in another species' mind? Do you know for sure what goes on in another human's mind? I've seen plenty of evidence of what appears to be rational thought in non-human species, but ultimately none of us knows for sure what another being experiences. To make a cavalier blanket statement one way or the other is just ignorant - or common human arrogance.

[and-justice-for-all]

28. Thank You! nt

[bean fidhleir]

30. Did you forget the "I'm joking" flag? If not, you're frighteningly ignorant

Mammals as "meat mechanisms" has been discredited for decades. It went into the Dustbin Of Chauvinistic Stupidity along with ideas of racial purity, White Man's Burden, eugenics, Man the Only Tool-User, and similar self-congratulatory and -exculpatory nonsense.

Wolfgang Köhler put one of the first nails into its coffin during WW1 when he watched primates on Tenerife sit and think about problems he'd set up and then use tools to solve them.

Even Edward Thorndike, for God's sake, had the evidence in front of him in his cat-in-a-box experiment - yet he was so committed to the "meat mechanism" hypothesis that he completely failed to understand what he was looking at. In other words, he himself behaved like a meat mechanism.

If I misunderstood your humor, I apologize. But if you really are serious, I suggest you educate yourself - you're more than a couple quarts low.

[El Pinko]

39. It's not humor - I granted them the respect of the term "being"...

...and I certainly think there is much more to animals than just meat.

But rational, sentient thought? No.

[bean fidhleir]

41. You must use highly personal definitions of "rational" and "sentient" then

Because by the usual definitions of those words, many non-human animals are known to be both "rational" and "sentient" in their thought processes. Even self-awareness has recently been demonstrated, in rats.

You would do yourself and others a favor by updating your knowledge.

[flvegan]

36. Ah, a Dominionist I see.

[El Pinko]

40. No, an atheist.

NT.

[Scout]

45. a human baby is also incapable of rational thought....

no rights there? no right to food, shelter, medical treatment?

[Snarkturian Clone]

32. Let's give cows the vote.

Bovine sufferage is a front-burner issue. The Porcine sufferage riots of '68 should have taught us that full equality is our biggest issue.

[datasuspect]

34. we will fight for bovine freedom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI

[Kajsa]

48. Thank you, Dutch.

I stated the same thing in another thread a while back.

Animal rights goes hand-in-hand with human rights, civil rights
and other causes fighting for basic rights.

:hi:

[cynatnite]

16. All of a sudden? Where've you been?

DU has always had a strong contingent of animal rights supporters since I've been here.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

17. Didnt you know

Everything is meats fault..

[nam78_two]

19. The "animal rights stuff" is tied to a lot more than the rights of animals

Actually the increase in consumption of meat in developing nations is being mentioned in many news items on the current food crisis, as directly impacting the food supply of the poorest people in those nations:
Here is one for instance:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=4634069&page=1
India's Growing Economy Doesn't Help Poor
Higher Cereal Costs Mean Rationing Food, Eating Less for 800 Million
Look into Rita Benarji's frying pan and you can see the effect of rising food prices in India.


People buy vegetables from roadside stalls in Mumbai April 9, 2008. High food prices and shortages...
People buy vegetables from roadside stalls in Mumbai April 9, 2008. High food prices and shortages will continue in the near term, making some poorer countries vulnerable to food riots, Jacques Diouf, director general of the Food and Agriculture Organisation, said on Wednesday.
(Punit Paranjpe/Reuters)There, simmering in the oil -- that once cost $3.75, but now costs almost $7 -- are six balls of dough. There used to be eight.

"We make the same amount of money we always have," she told ABC News, stirring her dinner in the Kalkaji slums of New Delhi. "But because expenses are so high, we have to eat less."

snip

The Cost of Getting Richer
India has never been richer, and more-affluent Indians have never eaten more meat and more milk -- two types of food that require more grains to produce, therefore reducing the grains left over for the rest of the world.

"The two largest countries in the world -- China and India -- with a total of around 2.2 billion are having GDP growth of 8 to 10 percent, thus giving more income to their population to buy food," Jacques Diouf, the director-general of the U.N. Food and Agriculture Organization, told ABC News in New Delhi.

Then there is the fact that meat production is closely tied to many environmental issues-the rate at which meat is consumed in the West is simply not sustainable and that is becoming more obvious as the rest of world tries to emulate our unsustainable consumption patterns.

There are people like me for whom this is a huge issues all by itself (I think the way our society treats animals-especially "food" animals is pretty horrific). But, even leaving the humane aspect of things aside, I think it is an issue that is very closely related to other major issues that affect human wellfare as well animal welfare, such as rising food prices, pollution, efficient utilization of resources etc.

Ignoring this issue is unwise since it is intimately linked to many issues besides the rights of animals.

[Marr]

23. I know what you're saying and I agree.

I have trouble seeing how the vegan/vegetarian/animal rights issues are part of "the left". To put it bluntly, they're nowhere near my main concerns.

Sometimes it starts to feel like those anti-war marches that would fall apart because they were invaded by 500 different causes, most having nothing whatsoever to do with the stated reason for the gathering. It does make me wonder what their real motivations are sometimes.

[Snarkturian Clone]

33. You're damn right about that.

Sometimes it starts to feel like those anti-war marches that would fall apart because they were invaded by 500 different causes, most having nothing whatsoever to do with the stated reason for the gathering. It does make me wonder what their real motivations are sometimes.

I remember.

[nam78_two]

38. I think that is where the "big tent" part comes in

While it may not be an issue for you, evidently it is for a certain percentage of people on the left.

Indeed, it may even be something that brought someone to the left-concerns over society's treatment of animals can be a starting point for awareness of the larger issues plaguing the more unfortunate members of society.

And even many others who may not be fully on board for the entire "vegan agenda" often see how it ties in because of it is tied to other issues-the environment for instance. Even many meat-eaters can have concerns related to humane farming, animal abuse etc. I mentioned upthread too how the unsustainable rate of meat consumption in the west is spreading around the world and many articles on the present and growing food crisis mention it as one fairly major culprit. These are not vegan organizations proposing this-it is coming from UN officials and economic thinktanks. This isn't quite such a side issue and I think we are going to see increasing not decreasing awareness of that.

[The Straight Story]

24. If it came down to me and my kids versus animals, I would take my kids

besides, chicken is really yummy :)

Maybe some people would take animals over kids, I am just not one of them.... :rofl:

And let's not even go into those birds who fly into windmills. Evolution will insure that someday those birds will learn not to fly into the blades of those windmills.

Just give em time. In the mean time, fire up the grill...

[CRF450]

29. I got the BBQ sauce

Cant have a grill without BBQ sauce!

[defendandprotect]

26. No -- patriarchy kept this a taboo subject; but it's sinking --- along with Capitalism ---!!!

Patriarchy has been going down for quite some time now ---

and along with it, organized patriarchal religion ---

and, of course, their system of Capitalism ---

"A ridiculous King-of-the-Hill System" doing what it's intended to do . . .

move the assets of the nation into the pockets of the elite few.

[Snarkturian Clone]

31. I stubbed my toe!!!!

Darn that infernal Patriarchy.

It rained yesterday!!! Patriarchy's fault for controlling the weather.

My cat scratched the couch!! The Patriarchy's lack of scratching post distribution is responsible!!!!

Curses! The Patriarchy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111eleventyonehundredandeleven




:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[defendandprotect]

42. Good thing you didn't break it ...

because then you might need health care ---

maybe even a few days off with pay ---


Exploitation of the planet --- and even other human beings --- is a patriarchal thing:

See: "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" ---

licenses to exploit nature and natural resources, animal-life --- and even other human beings

according to various myths of inferiority.

See: Native Americans/genocide
See: Africans enslaved in America


We also had the overturning of female based-medicine/health care to replace it with male
medicine and look where we are now!

Again -- patriarchy is suicidal . . . as we can plainly see.

[Snarkturian Clone]

44. ...

:crazy:

[defendandprotect]

46. I agree -- you are!

[susankh4]

35. I think that inhumanity is also on the rise....

Toward fellow humans, and toward animals.

This one is actually incomprehensible.... unfathomable....

I mean WTF is damned right????

The "artist" allowed a dog to starve to death, as part of an "art" exhibit.

But this is not all... the prestigious Visual Arts Biennial of the Central American decided that the 'installation' was actually art, so that Guillermo Vargas Habacuc has been invited to repeat his cruel action for the biennial of 2008.

And a petition to stop it:

http://www.petitiononline.com/ea6gk/petition.html

[uppityperson]

43. When people are scared, they get more fundamentalist. Big picture is too big.

Not talking just Du but in general. When people get scared, they draw in, become more fundamentalist, less tolerant, look for things small enough to deal with also.

[hyphenate]

47. I just care about animals

It also says something about our society, that if we treat the least of us as badly as we do, how are we ever going to treat animals well?

Animal rights are as important as many other issues. Cruelty comes in many different forms--animals feel a major portion of it.

I choose to support animal issues--someone else might not choose to do so. That is their right to do as they wish, and my right to support the animals of the world who have no voice of their own.

And yes--there is shit going on, on all levels. Doesn't mean the causes I support are in any way inferior to another's causes--just different.

As they say, it takes all kinds.

[G_j]

49. Hint: it's all connected

most sadistic adult killers were animal abusers as children
most Americans raise their children on the meat of tortured and abused animals, (see those recent videos?)
the administration believes in torture and killing
our children are watching

"The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated."

Mohandas Gandhi.