some facts about Fundie Polygamist cults- for those defending that lifestyle

[Beaverhausen]

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy69.html
THis article is from the LA Times in 2001, the time when the Tom Green* case was big news.

***************************

According to law enforcement officials and others familiar with how plural marriage operates, the problems usually associated with polygamy include:

High levels of incest, child abuse and wife battering. But the crimes are rarely reported because of the secrecy surrounding polygamous communities, law enforcement officials say.

Widespread reliance on welfare. In the tiny town of Hildale, for example, along the Utah-Arizona border, as many as 50% of the residents are on public assistance, according to state and federal records. The fraud occurs when plural wives claim they don't know the whereabouts of their children's father.

Unusual levels of child poverty. For example, across the street from Hildale in Colorado City, Ariz., every school-age child in town was living below the poverty level, according to U.S. Census Bureau estimates from 1997, the most current available.

Wide-ranging tax fraud. Polygamists often underestimate their income or, as in Green's case, don't file returns at all.

Limited educational opportunities. Last year the prophet of the Fundamentalist Latter-day Saints Church, a group excommunicated more than a century ago for practicing polygamy, ordered the town's children to stop attending public school, resulting in the closure of the local elementary school.

Overtaxed public services. Medicaid pays for more than one-third of the babies born in Utah, and plural wives account for a disproportionate share of those births, child welfare advocates say.

"It's very hard to prosecute-you need witnesses, you need cooperation," said Utah Atty. Gen. Mark Shurtleff. "Because of the closed nature of the society and the threats to the young brides, people are afraid to talk. But the state needs to protect these people."

Statistics about polygamy are hard to come by. For the most part, information about polygamy and its problems comes from a small group of investigators or from a handful of polygamists and plural wives who have left the fold.

MORE AT THE LINK
*******************

Tom Green * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Green_%28polygamist%29 (polygamist)

edited headline- sorry for offending DU polygamists. whatever.

[LynneSin]

1. You might want to update that Wiki link - it goes right to Tom Green the comedian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Green_%28polygamist%29

[Beaverhausen]

3. oops- thanks. I fixed it.

:hi:

[Bucky]

4. I only read your post after closely examining the comedian's wiki for any sign of polygamy

hell, I was about to start a Lounge thread to gossip about how horrible it was that more than one woman had to live with this annoying man.

[crawfish]

7. I've seen Big Love...

Polygamists are happy family men with big homes, lots of kids, hot wives and great sex.

I'll stick with one woman, though. :)

[Kitty Herder]

26. Well, I've seen real polygamy.

It's nothing like that. It's disgusting.

I went to high school with girls who were forced to become "sister-wives" for some creepy old dudes pleasure at the age of sixteeen. At least the sect here where I live doesn't make them drop out of school at that age anymore. They used to. Now they just marry them off but keep them in school. You've never seen more depressed kids than those poor girls.

[crawfish]

35. I think I forgot to put this in...

:sarcasm:

I really don't think it's like that...

[XemaSab]

2. You forgot abuse of boys

They dump 13 year old boys basically by the side of the road so they don't compete for wives.

[undeterred]

15. Wow, I never heard that.

[thereismore]

5. Wow, maybe the plural wives and children are a worse problem than illegal immigrants. nt

[Lance_Boyle]

63. not when you factor in the numbers. n/t

[TriggerGal]

6. Can we reverse it?

I could use 7 husbands.

- 1 to fix the car
- 1 to fix the electric
- 1 to fix the plumbing
- 1 to build things
- 1 to move the heavy things (furniture, fridge, freezer)
- 1 to cook & clean
- 1 for everything else ;)

[kimmerspixelated]

10. That's a good one!

If women had multiple husbands, I have an idea that it wouldn't be so bad!Forget sex-put them to work! ...But, polygamy as it stands though, is a really sickening free ride for men to just have as much sex as they want, whenever, however. Those kind of men are just fuckin' disgusting pigs!

[TriggerGal]

31. Thanks

I just have this tendency to think outside the box.

[Matariki]

36. As if. I seriously doubt those guys are 'sex machines'

I think it's an ego thing.

[Scout]

33. no, each husband makes an average of 7 hours more housework for the wife!

I saw that on DU somewhere, a study was done!

[Matariki]

37. bwahahaha!

that's funny. And all of them are probably too tired for sex after all is said and done :rofl:

[TriggerGal]

53. That's why I said ...

1 to cook and clean.

I'm not doing that for them!!

I'd rather work outside the home!!

[localroger]

39. That's called polyandry

There are matriarchal societies, mostly in Polynesia, which have done it that way for real.

[TriggerGal]

54. You can call me ...

Polynesian !!! B-)

[cbayer]

41. Did you ever read the Ya-Ya sisterhood books?

They say you need 5 men in your life:
One to fix things.
One to talk to.
One to dance with.
One to have sex with.
One to pay for things.

Not endorsing polygamy and noting that one man could fill many on these roles at the same time. I've just never met that man. Mine can do 4/5.

[TriggerGal]

55. Taking a long shot here ...

I'm guessing he can't dance.

[cbayer]

61. Nope, poor as a church mouse.

He loves to dance. It's that kind of Herman Munster white guy way of dancing, but he is shameless and dances all the time.

Out of the five, the money matters the least. I am very, very lucky.

[notadmblnd]

60. Well I have two of the 5

I don't dance so all I need is one to talk to (maybe not) and one to pay for things (don't want that either, seems it always comes with strings attached). Other than that, it's get up, get dressed, get out!

[cbayer]

62. Well, the other two aren't bad!

The Ya-Ya sisters say that you can have multiple men performing these roles, but I agree with you about the money thing. I can let that one go.

[TalkingDog]

45. Some cultures practice Polyandry, although it is more rare.

The instances I've read of are in Tibet where a group of brothers marries one woman. Other parts of Asia reportedly have areas that also engage in the practice.

I could stand more than 1 husband if they lived in one house and I lived in another. Multiple people would be too crowded for me.

Of course if I get my own house, there is a throne to consider too....

Hmmmm.... this is sounding better all the time.

[TriggerGal]

56. or ... perhaps ...

your own wing of the house (with your own throne, of course).

[eShirl]

8. how about non-cult-based polygamy?

or did that die out after the 70s?

[Beaverhausen]

20. what about it?

post info.

[Mojorabbit]

57. I was just wondering the same thing

Is it a problem outside of religion? I knew a family years ago, two women and a man who had lived together in a stable relationship and lots of children for fifteen years. They seemed happy and well adjusted.

[arrested_president]

9. Africans Did It For Milennia - Nothing Unhealthy About Their Way

Other cultures do it without all that negativity, too.

So, it must depend on WHO is doing it and is it a cover for something sinister or is it simply a way of life.

Supposedly, it was done in biblical times, as well.

You have information from people who have to deal with the problems - not the successes. That isn't a cultural study, just their crimes stats. It's more of a picture of what can go wrong with polygamy than a study of the lifestyle, in all it's myriad forms, locations and cultures.

[Disturbed]

11. The top leadership of FLDS are Millionaires.

McClatchy Washington Bureau | 04/13/2008 | Polygamist sect gets ...

Polygamist sect gets millions from U.S. government ... Manufacturing in Las Vegas, has been awarded more than $1.2 million in federal government contracts, ...

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/33519.html

[kimmerspixelated]

13. BUt any situation that holds women as prisoners

and gives a child no hope either, is sick,sick,sick! It's always stacked in the men's favor! Now, communes in the 60' or 70's that were free and open for both sexes with no slavery, blah,blah,blah, that's different.

[JerseygirlCT]

17. Not sure I agree with the nothing unhealthy part

Any society structured so that women are lesser partners can't be healthy.

There *are* some modern instances of polygamy or polyandry for that matter, where the partnership is about equals and not abusive.

But I'm highly suspicious of any cultural or religious imperative toward polygamy - it's almost always based on misogyny.

[eShirl]

19. "Any society structured so that women are lesser partners can't be healthy."

take a look at the history of monogamy while you're at it

[JerseygirlCT]

30. Absolutely. Although I think we're currently moving away from that now

Fact is, traditionally, almost ALL cultural constructs have been misogynistic. With a few exceptions, of course, though the exceptions are rare.

[undeterred]

21. There is polygamy in the Bible

which does not condone abuse, but women are still like property.

There were situations where a woman was infertile so a man had more than one wife to make sure he had children- since this was very important to the culture.

Its very hard to read back into another culture what all the motivations are though. Its the question every sunday school teacher dreads: "WHAT'S A CONCUBINE?"
'

[defendandprotect]

51. The Bible was written to cement patriarchy . . .

[Kitty Herder]

29. According to whom was it not unhealthy?

The male anthropologists who first recorded it?

Or the girls forced to marry old men they don't love. Yes, it happened there, too. Read up.

[Matariki]

38. Oh hello. The PLANET has a long history of sexism. Africa included.

[mopinko]

40. i think it is part of our genetic legacy. driving it underground is what leads to

this kind of abuse.
there is no doubt that it has been done for millennia. i'm sure there have been wide spread abuses like all forms of human society. we are an ugly lot. but i think where it is in the open, and constrained by an honest economic structure, it is no worse than other forms of human grouping.

[Iris]

43. How do you know there is no negativity? And 8 year olds having sex is healthy?

How can you say that about places like Afghanistan where women are locked into their homes and have absolutely no rights at all? How would they express negativity in that situation?

on edit:
Yes, this stuff does go one in other cultures, but is this really healthy? http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3162671

[defendandprotect]

52. There is certainly something very unhealthy about patriarchy . . ...

[Matariki]

12. The problems you site have more to do with extreme fundamentalism than polyamory.

You could as easily make the same blanket statements equating 'high levels of incest, child abuse and wife battering' with fundamentalism, which is almost ALWAYS sexist and controlling of women.

[eShirl]

14. I agree; it's the fundamentalism. n/t

[Beaverhausen]

18. I'm just quoting the article - and since this fundie cult is in the news now, I thought people would

know what I was referring to.

Guess not.

Sorry if I offended any polygamists here. :eyes:

[eShirl]

23. well your original title was Some facts about polygamy

so I thought at the time I posted that this thread was about polygamy in general

[Matariki]

28. I think the REAL problem with this cult is an institutionalized 'male dominance'

I'm not defending the reprehensible people in that 'cult'.

I'm defending people I know who are in long-term, stable, polyamorous relationships. They take a fair amount of social flack for their alternative sexuality. And for the record they aren't 'one man, multiple women' situations.

That blanket statement about incest & child abuse reminded me a bit of the 'gay marriage leads to bestiality' argument.

I think the REAL problem with this cult is an institutionalized 'male dominance' common to fundamentalism. That, in my opinion, is the real culprit.

[Kitty Herder]

34. Absolutely. And the control of information. Without either one, few women

would ever choose that lifestyle freely.

[lightningandsnow]

25. Seconded.

Plenty of people are in non-religiously based polyamorous relationships, with no problems whatsoever. I know a young woman who is in a relationship like that at the moment, and it's a very loving, happy relationship. It also seems fundamentally egalitarian, which you usually won't have in any kind of relationship based on fundamentalist religion, whether that relationship is monogamous or polyamorous.

[Dr. Strange]

16. Isn't this like saying marijuana must be bad because of the criminal behavior associated with it?

If polygamy were legal, maybe we'd find out that it works just fine for those who choose it.

It won't solve the cult problems, of course, because those problems have more to do with the cult than with marriage.

[PetraPooh]

44. Thank you, I was going to post the same thing. The OP article itself

essentially agrees when it says that these things are not reported because of the "secrecy" surrounding these relationships.

[Jed Dilligan]

22. Then why not outlaw mullets?

The problems usually associated with mullets are: anger management issues, pedophilia, speeding, crystal meth abuse, spousal abuse, disorderly conduct, alcohol abuse, membership in illegal motorcycle clubs, functional illiteracy, and criminally poor taste in music.

If people want to have a few different spouses and can do it without breaking other laws, I say why not?

[TalkingDog]

46. you forgot bad teeth in your caricature.... n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

47. Quick!

Deploy the public health barbers!

[Wind Dancer]

24. Thanks for sharing.

It's been shocking to read some of the posts recently by those that obviously don't understand the abuse within these groups.

"Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith", by Jon Krakauer is an excellent, well researched book with great insight into the history and daily lives of these folks - a must read.


From the Inside Flap

snip

Krakauer takes readers inside isolated communities in the American West, Canada, and Mexico, where some forty-thousand Mormon Fundamentalists believe the mainstream Mormon Church went unforgivably astray when it renounced polygamy. Defying both civil authorities and the Mormon establishment in Salt Lake City, the leaders of these outlaw sects are zealots who answer only to God. Marrying prodigiously and with virtual impunity (the leader of the largest fundamentalist church took seventy-five "plural wives," several of whom were wed to him when they were fourteen or fifteen and he was in his eighties), fundamentalist prophets exercise absolute control over the lives of their followers, and preach that any day now the world will be swept clean in a hurricane of fire, sparing only their most obedient adherents.

snip

[Beaverhausen]

27. Yes, I read that book recently - very eye opening.

And shocking that this happens here in the US under everyone's nose.

I feel so bad about the girls still trapped in the other locations where this cult is holding them hostage.

[kestrel91316]

32. It's not multiple sexual partners that's the real problem here.

What consenting adults do with each other in bed or in their household setup is their own business.

HOWEVER, sex with minors is always wrong. Grooming minors into believing that minors should accept sex with adults as normal and desirable is just pure evil. As is discarding excess juvenile males as trash. Abusing and threatening to abuse infants in order to control their mothers' behavior is beyond evil. Depriving children of any contact with the outside world and then lying to them about the very nature of that world is wrong.

I could go on, but you get my point.

And one should note that the Texas authorities are not going after the FLDS for their polygamy. They are going after them for the pattern of activity that constitutes systematic and chronic child sexual abuse. Though IMHO they need to look into the welfare cheating, too, a la Tom Green's clan.

Never forget that the "prophet" and head of FLDS (Warren Jeffs) is a convicted accessory to rape, and no doubt a rapist himself many times over but with completely silent victims.

[femrap]

42. There are dems who are

defending polygamy?

Skinner needs to start a forum called 'Kinky sex/relationships' so I don't have to read that dumb dems like polygamy.

[shugah]

48. and, of course, the main problem with closed society polygamy

i watched a 'news' show about polygamy a while back. it endeavored to be unbiased. here were all these people, living and working as a community, which it appeared they were. there were the wives, to be sure, and the complete non-bias of the program showed that there was sometimes jealousy and strife between wives...

the telling part of the closed society polygamy came when the 'reporter' had all the teens of the group gathered in the sunshine in a field of green and spring flowers. they all looked happy and contented. and he asked them something like "do you think that having multiple wives is okay? boys, do you plan to have multiple wives? girls, are you okay with sharing your husband?" and they all answered yes, the way we live is wonderful, we're so happy with it, we can't wait to get married...

the teens that were so anxious to carry on the traditions of the group were about 1/2 male and 1/2 female as would be expected. so, if all the males intend to have multiple wives, and all the females expect to be one of many wives, doesn't that leave some males without wives?

the problems of this mathematical certainty are bound to lead to abuse on a myriad of levels.

[The Straight Story]

49. Well if ya don't like it, then don't participate

At least, that is what my wives tell me... ;)

[Cerridwen]

50. A link for you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3163212&mesg_id=3163212

[ikojo]

58. Medicaid covers one third of babies born

in REPUBLICAN Utah? Isn't that at odds with Republican (and Democratic) political beliefs? After all I thought the pugs were against welfare and well the Democrats helped pass Welfare "reform."

[TalkingDog]

59. Repeat after me: It's okay for me, but never for you.

Do as I say, not as I do.

Repeat ad infinitum.

[K8-EEE]

64. That book by Carolyn Jessop is chilling -- it's called "Escape"

I really feel sorry for those women -- brainwashed from birth, actually I feel sorry for anybody brainwashed into any fundie cult but theirs really takes the cake.

At one point "prophet" Warren Jeffs said God would make it so doctors were unnecessary for the "faithful." She had stories of teenage girls getting babies delivered using sewing paraphenalia, sewing scissors!! And getting in trouble for screaming!

I mean just HORROR. As far as "you have to respect their religion," you know what....no I don't!

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beaverhausen]

66. I'm not quite sure what your point is

but in this fundie cult, women and children are being abused and I'm glad they were rescued by law enforcement, and I hope they can help those who are still trapped in the other cult's secret (and not so secret) locations.

If you are in a polygamous relationship with other consenting adults, you have nothing to worry about. Don't get all defensive - no one is talking about you.

[arrested_president]

67. Not So - You Need To Read Some Of The Attacks

but, it's good to know that YOU aren't one of them

thanks

SOME of the posters in this and other threads i've seen are pretty rabid against the IDEA of it and they immediately equate it to making women suffer and degrading women, etc.