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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 10:37 AM
Original message
Dead Society Walking (but not bitterly) - Nothing to do with Barack. Just an essay.
Edited on Wed Apr-16-08 11:00 AM by arendt
In the tradition of Tibetan Buddhism, the human life cycle is just that: a cycle. An individual soul is born, dies, and is reborn over and over again until it achieves liberation from all future rebirth. At that point the cycle ends. Until then, however, the cycle consists of six bardos or "transitional states." The first three bardos occur "between" lifetimes (from the moment of death until the time of rebirth).

* The Chi-Kha Bardo - this state occurs at the moment of death, when the dying person has the potential to perceive The Clear Light of Ultimate Reality, and recognize it as his own ultimate being. If the soul does this, it merges with the light and no longer has to be reborn. This encounter, however, is quite an overwhelming experience, to put it mildly, and the individual may shrink back from this Light in fear. If it does so, then the weight of its own karma will pull it into the next bardo.

* The Chhos-Nyid Bardo - this part of the journey is where the soul encounters "Peaceful Deities" and "Wrathful Deities," which are outer projections of its karma, or past experiences over innumerable rebirths. The soul is counselled not to become attracted or repulsed by these deities, but to regard them as emanations of its own illusory self. If the soul can do this, it achieves liberation. However, if the soul ends up getting "caught" by one of these entities, it may end up hanging out in one of six possible "lokas" or "worlds," including those of the hungry ghosts, the warrior demons, the devas (or angels), the hell dwellers, the bestial world of animals, or back into the world of human beings (see next bardo).

- http://thehumanodyssey.typepad.com/the_human_odyssey/2007/04/maps_of_the_hum_1.html


A sane person in America today finds himself care-taking a cultural Alzheimer's patient - a society that is mentally slipping away. The body is still there, but the mind is far gone. The cities and highways and shopping malls are still there; so it looks like the same old country. But the media and the ruling class are delusional - babbling insanely about stuff they remember from years ago, while ignoring the house burning down around them right now. As the higher functions of consciousness fade, childish impulses are no longer under control and violent acting out creates dangers for those nearby, even if they are loved ones.

The body - our country's physical infrastructure - is falling apart from neglect. Similarly, the civic soul of America is a distorted wreck of its former self: the right to bear arms de-regulated into an never-ending rash of mass killings/sucides, which disfigure our social fabric like herpes sores; a morbidly obese state of childhood - prolonged into the third decade of life by terrified, soon-to-be-ex-middle-class, "helicopter parents"; an ethic of fair competition twisted into the deification of increasingly violent sports and talentless celebrity; freedom of religion morphed into theocracy, teen-age harems, and apocalyptic cults.

Scientists still don't understand the origins of Alzheimers; but they can chart the progression of its pathology. Those remaining conscious of our societal breakdown, like Naomi Klein, recognize not only the symptoms, but also the origins, of our societal de-cerebration. This is media-induced Alzheimers - the deliberate destruction of our collective memory of what real democracy and real society look like by a corporate propaganda apparatus. Bush is the sub-human face of our collective dementia; Cheney, the alter ego of snarling de-repressed violence.

This induced dementia has been immensely, obscenely profitable for the corporate elites who tipped the balance of communication in our society's thought processes into a self-fueling, self-destructive cascade of toxic ideas. Best of all for the corporate predators, their victim still has power of attorney. So our government is busy giving away our children's inheritance to con-men who cold-call from no-bid boilerrooms around the country. Our dementing society has sold our birthright as citizens for a pile of shoddy Chinese trinkets and a failed war of aggression.

Like July 1914 or August 1939, you can feel that something very bad is coming. But, as a society, we are not prepared to face it, much less to deal with it. It is not the circumstances that doom us, but the obscurantist reaction of our society's leaders that make us the walking dead. When some random chain of avoidable circumstances pushes this ravaged society beyond its capacity to cope, it is clear that this incarnation of American society will die. Given our propensity for violence, it is highly likely that the next incarnation will be populated with "wrathful dieties". Karma is a bitch.

Still, as we sane folks keep the death vigil, there are moments when a flash of the country we love shines through the crumbling, ranting husk of a culture. And, we are reminding of its prior greatness and magnanimity. And, we hope against hope that there is really a thinking being left inside the lobotomized maniac we are care-giving. We hope that Obama or Hillary is a savior. We hope that some brave person will stop the war abroad and the looting at home.

----

I, myself, am beyond hope. This has given me a new apprehension of the world around me. I am healthy and would normally expect to live decades more, so I have not begun to grapple seriously with my own personal mortality. However, the impending death of our society has made each normal day, each everyday miracle, into a moment of meditation on the good life we have had in America.

Buddha told a parable in a sutra:

A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, the tiger after him. Coming to a precipice, he caught hold of the root of a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge. The tiger sniffed at him from above. Trembling, the man looked down to where, far below, another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him.

Two mice, one white and one black, little by little started to gnaw away the vine. The man saw a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. How sweet it tasted!

Hanging from that branch, menaced by those tigers, watching the crooked bankers chew threw that vine, I eat the strawberry in the fading twilight of middle class America.
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Vilis Veritas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
1. Nailed it
I always like your OP's...eat them while you can...

Peace.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
2. Kick. Its hard to compete with the Pope & W show. But its just distraction. n/t
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. trying to breathe through every day
one day at a time, enjoying the spring strawberries and the native wildflowers...until the heat once again turns the hills brown...

quietly happy that the village is far from any big city... and is reached only by two-lane roads that wind through steep canyons and over high hills...

as the little light on the instrument panel of the fighter plane lights up to say "you're fucked"...too late... the trip down will be scenic...


Gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. I'm more Zen than ?Matayana?. I like your idiot light that says "you're fucked".
Edited on Wed Apr-16-08 03:29 PM by arendt
Aren't you worried about water out there? What with the drought in the West and everything?

arendt
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. not too worried
actually, most of NorCal got its quota of water already...problem is, it hasn't rained for quite a while, so the grass is getting dry...

strangely enough, NOAA says it will be cloudy with nighttime temperatures down near freezing over the weekend, I actually heard the weather broadcast mention the words "snow level"...weird.

as to the instrument light, apparently there is indeed one (perhaps more) of the US fighter jets that has essentially a "you're fucked" light...it tells the pilot that the computers that control the wings have gone out, and that shortly, the pilot and plane will disassociate... there is something to be said for the old biplanes....
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. The plane must be either a stealth (F-117 or B-2) or the new XF-22...
all those designs are dynamically unstable. They need active computer control. The B-2 is a flying wing, a design known to be unstable for over 50 years. The XF-22 designers decided that instability meant maneuverability, so they deliberately built it in. The F-117 control surfaces were designed first to deflect radar, and only second to control the airplane. Manueverability is marginal, even with computer control you can send the thing out of control.

You wouldn't get me in a modern military plane for all the tea in China. They use the same principle as Olympic downhill skiers: if you want to win, you have to be risk failing miserably - pushing things beyond the limit and praying for good luck.

Anyway, glad you've got water.

arendt


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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thanks arendt
A very good way to play it. Knowing there is no hope but enjoying what we have for the little time left we still have it.

Nice.
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
5. Strawberry Fields
Edited on Wed Apr-16-08 12:33 PM by ClayZ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ywg-PdeGVL0

Let me take you down, 'cause I'm going to Strawberry Fields.
Nothing is real and nothing to get hung about.
Strawberry Fields forever.

Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.
It's getting hard to be someone but it all works out.
It doesn't matter much to me.

Let me take you down, 'cause I'm going to Strawberry Fields.
Nothing is real and nothing to get hung about.
Strawberry Fields forever.

No one I think is in my tree, I mean it must be high or low.
That is you can't you know tune in but it's all right.
That is I think it's not too bad.

Let me take you down, 'cause I'm going to Strawberry Fields.
Nothing is real and nothing to get hung about.
Strawberry Fields forever.

Always no sometimes think it's me, but you know I know when it's a dream.
I think I know I mean "Yes," but it's all wrong.
That is I think I disagree.

Let me take you down, 'cause I'm going to Strawberry Fields.
Nothing is real and nothing to get hung about.
Strawberry Fields forever.
Strawberry Fields forever.
Strawberry Fields forever.


edit: K and R
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. My song for that feeling is a little more "this wordly"...
We starve-look at one another short of breath
walking proudly in our winter coats
wearing smells from laboratories
facing a dying nation of moving paper fantasy
listening for the new told lies
with supreme visions of lonely tunes

Let the sun shine in.
Let the sun shine in.
the sun shine in.

--------

arendt
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Write poet, write!
Kudos!


Kick
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Not mine. Its from "Hair", the 60s musical. n/t
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. yes
nt
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
8. kick and rec -- i want to add, though... the challenge is not to hold too tightly
Edited on Wed Apr-16-08 02:10 PM by nashville_brook
to hopelessness b/c even though large-scale solutions seem impossible at this moment, there's plenty of small-scale/local goodness to have while we wait for the end of the world.

and, the end might not come. some impossible-to-imagine force might nudge us in the right direction. it would be tragic to ignore good solutions b/c we're over-invested in an unhappy ending.

truth is tho -- i'll never again muster the optimism i had during the first years of the clinton administration. that's been snuffed out.


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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I have hope for local and small-scale. Just no hope for large-scale.
It is the ruthless, greedy leaders; and the brain-dead mobs of their followers that prevent any positive motion at the large-scale. At this point, all sane people can do is keep their heads down, prepare for massive social and economic disruption, and wait it out.

The election will be an interesting moment, but a meaningless one. If McCain wins, it signals the end of our democracy. If he loses, it probably signals some kind of coup attempt or an attack on Iran and an invocation of martial law.

You say not to be over-invested in an unhappy ending. I don't think I am. Show me one force that can deflect the perfect storm they have directed at America. The leaders are insane, but they have all the guns and all the corporate media and all the toxic, paternalistic, authoritarian religions on their side.

There is no hope of a large-scale triumph. I would settle for Joe Lieberman being accidentally run over by a catering truck at the GOP convention.

arendt
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. that last image made me spit tea. Lieberman flailing like a roach under a hotdog cart. love it.
can't show a force that would deflect the perfect storm on our horizon. i won't go near that kool-aid.

what i am hoping for, though, is the fever that will kill parasites on our back. we ARE totally headed for "rapid cultural change." there's no doubt about that. old structures will fall and there will be a mighty vacuum where "globalism" and "economic bubbles" used to live.

it's just the medicine we need if we're to create a world worth living in -- one where people have jobs because we again make stuff close to home. when we produce more than piles of fake money.

i guess you could say that i'm hopeful for *what comes after.*
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. The parasites have prepared their bunkers in Switerland, or wherever they think safe...
they are perfectly ready to let the rest of us kill each other and destroy our infrastructure. When the dust and body parts settle, they will come back. IMHO, it won't be the vacuum you are hoping for. The parasites will colonize the productive/mineral rich areas, offering safety in exchange for freedom.

My only hope is that they have miscalculated the intensity of the social and environmental calamity that they have deliberately started, so that when they stick their heads back out, they get slaughtered.

Techno-babble aside:

I also try to figure out how to keep computer technology alive in the midst of social breakdown and loose nukes of the EMP variety. If we fry our electronics after the meltdown, we will never get them back. And, so much of our history is already committed to electronics - we are already at the sci-fi story stage where we can be wiped out.

I've thought about buying spare chips and putting them inside a double or triple Faraday cage.

arendt

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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. another thread you might check out -- the rise and fall of pottery in the Roman Empire
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Great minds think alike. I saw that, and was going to point to it.
Its the globalization that will kill us.

Over the last thirty years, we've set the entire planet up the same way the Commies set up the Soviet Union. By going to huge factories and centralized production, they tied their polyglot empire together with the following threat:

you can't break away from us because we have rigged your economy to NOT be self-sufficient. You must stay in our union or you will starve/freeze/etc.

The current generation of Americans doesn't know how to repair anything - because its A) built to be throw-away; B) designed at microscopic scales using computer programs written by narrow experts. When this civilization's transportation net fails (as it must if current policies continue), there will be mass famine almost instantly.

Time to go eat another strawberry.

arendt
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
15. K & R - we are the Victor Klemperer's and Sebastian Haffner's of this reincarnation
Edited on Wed Apr-16-08 03:59 PM by tom_paine
of "Kinder and Gentler" Nazism known as Bush-Occupied Amerika.

And I am with you. This thing is waaaaayyyy too far gone, and evil has now been cemented into onventional wisdom, to restore the Old American Republic without some tremendous upheaval.

But history tells us that the Bushies, like the Nazis have a plan for that. Blame the Jews, errrr, Liberals. History also tells us it will most likely work as it has always worked without fail for all of human history (though occasionally the scapegoats have changed).

I like your Buddhist Parable. Certainly that is a more productive way of looking at things as we wend our way through what is esssentially the year 1937 all over again (differences in specific details make exact year-to-year comparison between our Kinder and Gentler Nazis of today and the German Bushies of the 1930s, quite an inexact propostion, butthe larger trends and similarities are quite clear).

"How sweet (the strawberry) tasted!" Damn, that is so true. Now for the hard part...bringing my own mind and heart away from the despair of the Jew in 1937 Nazi Germany (which we most undoubtedly are), and can only pray that the Bushies' Final Solution to the Liberal Problem, which we will most likely see in 20 years is not as violent or awful as the German Bushies of the 1930s.

But how sweet that starwberry tasted as we hang collectiuvely on the vine with the Destruction of our Constitution and Bill of Rights above us, and those still-unknown Penultimate and Final Solutions below us.

Yes, ideally, that is the attitude to have (in addition to the stubborn desire to die free people) in this steadily darkening hour.

As always, tremendous essay, arendt!
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. How did America wind up with Germany's karma?
Edited on Wed Apr-16-08 05:02 PM by arendt
People like FDR and Churchill, almost single-handedly at the beginning, turned the Anglo-Saxon elite away from their ready embrace of Fascism. (Think Joe Kennedy, Henry Ford...) They prosecuted the war with some semblance of civilization.

In the sixties, we finally broke the back of the KKK in this country.

We had some good karma in this country.

So, how did we wind up with Joe McCarthy, Richard Nixon, the Viet Nam mess, and lately, the revival of the Nazi philosophy of Leo Strauss and Carl Schmitt (courtesy of Scoop Jackson and George Bush Sr., with a big push from the Kristol family)?

Whose karma is the current mess? Ms. Arendt claims its all the folks slaughtered in the two world wars, re-incarnated and trying to work through their demons.

----

I'm interested in why you think it will take 20 more years before they're hanging liberals from lamp posts. Hannity and the other animals are already calling us vermin and disease. The economy is cratering, which makes anyone with a decent job a target for the demagogues. Oil prices and food prices will completely ruin our insanely sprawled-out nation. The concentration camps are built. Posse Comitatus is declared inoperative. Blackwater is building bases all over the country.

When I estimate the amount of "hang time" we have left on our little piece of vine, I measure it in months, not years.

Thanks for your continued readership and support. It is appreciated.

arendt
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. A couple reasons. But first off, let me say 20 years is probably the upper limit.
Edited on Wed Apr-16-08 05:02 PM by tom_paine
Second, the force of inertia, politically and socially speaking, is more powerful than we know.

In nearly all human endeavors, I am fond of saying, we "stick our hands out to slow the fall".

Third, and this is somewhat related to the second, are the American people ourselves.

We all bitch about the sheeple and other pithy cliches, and in many ways this is true, but I think the problems we have are collectively, not individually.

Most of us were still born and raised in the freedom of old America (1776-2000, RIP). Most of us still carry with us, on some level, the principles of simple human decency embodied by the Old American Republic.

Plus, I still think most Americans (not the 30% Bushies - Bushies have divided us into good and evil in ways that only totalitarianism could do - it is something I never thought I would live to see in this country) are good at heart. Perhaps that is optimistic, too, but on an individual level, that is certainly my feeling.

One might counter that it only took the Nazis having strong support among 30% of their population (much like the Bushies today) to radically restructure their society to full and pure evil in quite a short time. I submit the differences in our national histories account for why this is not as relevant as one might think.

Therefore, I think before the really bad shit starts happening (well, unless economic catastrophe hits or the Bushies decide to hit us again like they did on 9/11, in which case all bets are off), we who were born in freedom with some connection to the Old America, will have to grow old and die.

The same way Bushevism could not have gotten this far until the generation that helped defeat Hitler grew old and/or died.

Anyway, that's my rationale for thinking/hoping we have 20 years left. You may be right that it will come much swifter, but somehow I note that almost always (with some notable exceptions) history seems to take longer than expected to find it's way to various inevitable ends.

Inertia. It all comes back to inertia.

Nobody knows, and hell, the possibility (not higher than 2%, I estimate) that some semblance of the Old American Republic could still be restored is still there.

Or we could settle into the relatively benign (compared to other authoritarian parties the Bushies have historical similarities with) Imperial Roman model in which after 20 years, we still aren't being systematically murdered, though things will be bad (there's a big difference between 'things are bad' and the kind of stuff you and I see as possibilities like wholesale, systematized hanging liberals from lamp posts or other such.

But let me ask you one thing, arendt, and I ask because it is a trap I have fallen into myself. For how many years now have you measured the time remaining in months.

I'm not trying to be an asshole or smart-ass, but to ask an honest question and give you food for thought.

Inertia is a powerful force, both socially as well as in physics.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. I was telling the truth in the OP. I just started measuring in months now...
Edited on Wed Apr-16-08 05:45 PM by arendt
before then it was "things are bad, but if we could just get some Democrats elected, if we could just stop the war..."

After a year of Pelosi and Reid and a year of this barking madness called "The Permanent Campaign" I finally have given up on the country surviving in anything resembling its past incarnation. We have blown too many chances, too much money, torn up too many laws and regulations, armed all the wrong people. We are going to pay for these mistakes.

----

I'm with Naomi Wolfe about fascism already being here. Look at the firestorm that engulfed Obama for daring to use the word "bitter". Jeez, you would think he called someone a "kike" or some equally verboten word. No. The thought police are here, and they are organized. Once you get to that point, its just a short way to Kristallnacht.

My opinion is that the fascism will roll in geographically, from the south. Florida is already insane, theocratic, and heavily para-militarized. Texas is the same. From these two centers of Bushism, they have already run a reign of terror in Alabama and let Katrina do ethnic cleansing on New Orleans. Years ago, they used vote fraud to run Max Cleland out of office in Georgia. Its a replay of the South American "Operation Condor", where all the American-installed dictatorships coordinated their military and intelligence networks to smash the left.

Then there are the creepy Mormons, spreading out from their fortress in Utah to places far and wide. We had Mitt the Shit in Massachusetts, and don't count him out of national politics yet. He is self-funding, slick, and ambitious. These rural southern places are also where Blackwater is setting up.

I wouldn't set foot in most of the non-urban south these days. It scares me.

----

Personally, I think we have burned through almost all the inertia there is over the last seven years. Where is the pushback against this insane war, which opinion polls tell us is 80% unpopular? Why aren't people doing things? Because they are cowed, beaten. Their leadership has been politely decapitated. WTF happened to John Edwards' campaign? Did he get an offer he couldn't refuse?

My wife and I are sick of paying our tax dollars for this. We have stopped buying any corporate media publications, because they are braindead and nauseating. If it weren't for the Internet, we would be deaf and blind to the truth.

Not sure I responded to your points, but its tough to write un-emotionally about this. Time for another strawberry break.

arendt
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that you were being dishonest.
And yes, my thoughts mirror your own. It is well-recorded here at the DU archives that I have been stating/predicting in various forms that the ballgame was already over on 12/12/2000, butthe bushies were still busy dancing and pirouetting with the corpse "Weekend at Bernie's" style to keep the rest of us from friguring it out.

Like you, in 2006 I got hopeful that the system, damaged as it was, could repair itself. That hope lasted approximately six months.

We see the same things in the shadow of totalitarian darkness. And yes, the Bushie Sub-Media and the scared Toady Media that trails in it's slimy wake have not appreciably changed in seven years.

Oh, some small changes, Olbermann, Abrams, Chris Matthews laying of the Kool-Aid just a little bit (even that a vast improvement, I suppose), but overall the paradigm has not budged.

So we are mostly on the same page, here.

Oh, and one last thing: If you haven't already, please read Deer Hunting With Jesus by Joe Bageant. It is a very insightful book which brings greater understanding of those places which you won't trod. You will not regret it.

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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Sorry if it seemed I was offended. I wasn't. Just normal internet emotional flattening...
Edited on Wed Apr-16-08 05:54 PM by arendt
I agree that we are, by and large, on exactly the same page.

----

I have read a lot of Joe Bageant. He can be hilarious.

But from what I read, I wouldn't get a good reception in his town. I'm too smart, too active, and too "elite" for his folks. I'm not much on drinking, hunting, fixing up battered possessions, or watching sports. I just wouldn't fit in.

He says the people there are very downtrodden, living on the edge. He says there is this tiny elite that runs the place, and everyone else is a peon. I imagine that if I showed up there, I would appear to be one of the elite; and I would be either reviled or feared.

But, if you have experience to the contrary, I would love you to share it with me.

arendt

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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. stopping them at the passes
California may get lucky, the luck of geography... all those mountain ranges...

Many of the hill and mountain roads are easily defensible, even Hwy 50 and I-80 (they get closed every winter) I-5 has to pass through the mountains near the Or. boarder... and the Grapevine often gets bogged down... LA and San Diego will be on their own...
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Umm. Aren't you overlooking the nest of whackos already occupying Orange County? n/t
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. they are south of the Grapevine
Edited on Thu Apr-17-08 02:23 AM by kineneb
they lose.

We might even be able to negotiate the return of the area to Mexico. Then all that remains are the right-wing nutcases that live in the vallies- Fresno, Bakersfield, Redding, etc. Sacramento isn't too bad. 'Course, if manure hits ventilator, the good ol' boys would probably tell Wash. DC to go do something extremely rude to itsself.

Besides, most of northern California is better armed the folks in OC. Granted, we do have our own home-grown wackos (mostly white supremacists), but they tend to hole up in the woods and leave other people alone.

My county could be considered part of the "Emerald Triangle." Between the paranoid Vietnam vets, the Mexican mafia and the just plain antisocial types that are the pot growers... well, I don't worry too much.

welcome to the real Wild West (and you thought that was San Francisco or Los Angeles)...
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Interesting geography lesson on the new Wild West...
I'm assuming the Grapevine is a river; will google it later. Not clear why they lose. Too many people? Not enough water?

This emerald triangle sounds like you mean really Northern CA - up towards Oregon, back o' the Bourke, boondocks. Yeah, I can see why that seems safe. The closest big urban area is probably SanFran, and they are pretty mellow.

Regards,

arendt


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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Grapevine
I-5 through the Tehachapi Mts., south of Bakersfield.

LA basin- no water, too many people, too much concrete...the #$^$#s keep trying to steal our water...

oops, sorry, native Northern California prejudice popping out. (back in the box now)

Read Cadillac Desert for a better appreciation of water politics in the West... we have had water wars out here since the 19th century.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Oh, and one more thing, we didn't just "get" Germany's Karma, the Bushies imported it after WWII
Edited on Wed Apr-16-08 05:10 PM by tom_paine
Operation Paperclip.

Never forget that Grandpa Prescott Bush was a great friend and ally of the nazis, so much so he was going to be named Ambassador to Germany if the 1934 Attempt to overthrow FDR had not had the whistle blown on it by American Hero Smedley Butler.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/document_20070723.shtml

So it was always there because the Bushies brought it over when they were rescuing their Nazi friends after the war (the ones that weren't so high profile they HAD to be tried at Nuremberg).

It was always here since 1933 and before, watching, waitiung for it's moment.

Now that moment is here. The revenge of Prescott Bush and His Nazi pals over FDR and the men who saved America back in '34.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. With WW2 as a major interest, I'm aware of Paperclip, Gehlen, and the stinking Dulles Brothers...
I guess it speaks for itself that Roosevelt had to let Prescott Bush and Brown Brothers go free in the middle of the war. Clearly, the home-grown Nazis were already growing on us.

Then after the war, you got that Norwegian Prayer-Breakfast organizer - the beginning of the faux-Christianization of our national government.

But, my original point was that the vast majority of the American people were firmly anti-fascist by the end of the war - and certainly after the disclosure of the concentration campls. So, how come the whole country gets the karma of this tiny little traitorous elite - the Bush-Nazi connection?

Were Catholics in America more pro-Nazi than anyone else? I'm thinking of Father Coughlin. Is there anything more than coincidence to Wild Bill Donovan's shop/CIA helping out ex-Nazis at the same time the Vatican was helping them out?

Bottom line, why did these imported Nazis take root here so easily?

arendt
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. How come Germany got the Hitler karma of a tiny crazed elite?
Edited on Wed Apr-16-08 06:17 PM by tom_paine
the question for the ages. My speculation is that there is some component hardwired into the human evolutionary genome. I can't explain or elaborate just that I think somehow, in some way, this is something that is hardwired to be a part of the human condition, so deeply does it cut across all races, creeds, colors, nations, histories, and that is this:

At any given time there are roughly 6-12% sociopaths in the human population. Most of them are murderers, rapists, thieves, etc., usually the worst ones.

Of that 6-12%, some 2% are not overt in their sociopathy, but have learned to control it. Inside, they are amoral as as a murderer or rapist, but they have learned that to indulge in this fashion will lead to imprisonment and perhaps worse, or they are so rich and powerful they are insulated from the consequences and can hide their sociopathy.

These 2% of sociopaths are MUCH MUCH MUCH more dangerous to society than the other 10% who can't control their impulses and perform routine criminalities.

These 2%, because they remain legally unimpaired by the difficulties other sociopaths incur with their behavior, can channel their amoral sociopathy and frequently find themselves in positions of power, due to drive, zealotry and "lacking the handicap" (as they see it) of a conscience.

As to the nuts and bolts of why, all I can say is that sociopathic 2% finds a way. As you said, the Dulles Brothers were much more evil than the Bushies, and we can all be thankful that WWII was so near in time to them that this could not have happened before they died.

Could you imagine if John Foster fucking Dulles was Emperor and this same thing had happened before the 60s had civilized the Bushevik South a bit more, following up on the Civil War 100 years tardily, but better than nothing?

You want to talk about scary? Whew! Then we WOULD be seeing Nazi-like murders and beatings and hangings of liberals, with the approival of the Bushie South, which was Democratic an KKK in those days (not because they loved the Democrats so much as hated the Liberal Lincoln Republicans who made them give up their salves and their oligarchies).

And THAT is the problem. Throughout all of human history the other 88% of us, while we seem to be able to band together to stop the more typcial sociopaths through law enforcement, arrest and imprisonment, find ourseleves totally disarmed by this other kind of camoflauged sociopath.

Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia, Bush's Amerika, Pinochet's Chile, Marcos' Phillipines, Pol Pot's Cambodia: Time and time and time and time again it's the same old story. The 2% of the camoflauged sociopaths cut like a kinfe through butter (often, but not always) through the political systems designed by the other 88%, simply by being amoral and pushing to the outer edge f the envelope "if I am not arrested and still in power, you cannot stop me...you can only stop me by arresting or killing me, if you do not take one of those steps, I win...lather, rinse, repeat.

Hell, until 1776, political systems did not even take into account this mad 2% and how to construct a political system which would prevent them from doing what they always do, have always done.

That was the System of Checks and Balances, our Constitution and Bill of Rights, first of it's kind in human history, which postulated at it's basic level, that faction would be the savior of the other 88% from the BushCheneyHitlerStalin 2%.

"Ambition would be made to counteract ambition," said Madison, lacking the necessary psychological knowledge to more deeply explain the nature of the BushCheneyHitlerStalin 2%.

And it lasted for 224 1/2 years, until 12/12/2000. Now it's gone and we are, as almost all of the human beings who ever lived have been and are, under the control of the 2% of BushCheney-type sociopaths.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Because Germany was marinated in Theosophy and anti-semitism
As a reader of Hannah Arendt, I'm well aware of the virulent anti-Semitism in Germany (among many other places). As a reader of Morris Berman, I'm well aware of the Madame Blavatsky root-race Aryanism and anti-modernism that was also extremely popular in Germany. Plus, the Germans were proud of their new-found (since 1850) unity and military prowess.

One part hatred, one part "god's chosen", one part ego-trip - mix over the burnt out embers of the loss of WW1, the 1923 hyperinflation, and the Great Depression. Serve steely cold.

----

I take your point about the Dulles's being worse than Bush, and about domesticating the racists in the South, for a time.


Now on to ponerology.

I read that site over a year ago. I thought about it. I decided that, without an iron-clad, foolproof test for such pathology, trying to enforce laws against it would just start a witch hunt of huge proportions, which the sociopaths would win. So, however appealing it is. There is CURRENTLY no way to prove someone is a sociopath. Although, there are MRI tests that might show the brain patterns of such people. Again, the Big Brother-ness of such testing is still so scary that I doubt I could support it, without safeguards that would make today's death penalty appeal system look modest.

Nevertheless, I think the model and the numbers you cite are in the ballpark. Decades ago I saw some nature program about fish that breed in a pond after a monsoon rain. The pond will evaporate in a few months, so the fish have to grow, breed, and lay eggs. But there are gazillions of them in this little pond from the previous batch of eggs. So many that they are packed in like sardines. And, what did the nature program capture on video? That about 1% of the fish are CANNIBALS - and that those cannibals are highly successful. They look like any other fish 99.99% of the time. But that other 0.01%, they turn on their neighbor and swallow him. Then they go back to looking like any other fish. Presto, piscine ponerology. Highly effective.

The nature show pointed out that the percentage of such cannibal fish was controlled by natural selection. Too many cannibals and the species would perish, but 1% seemed to turn the cannibals into a species insurance policy, without doing excessive damage.

So, I agree that the cannibalistic nature of sociopaths is probably genetically hard-wired at a low level for species survival reasons.

The problem is that, with technological leverage, that 1% number is no longer an insurance policy for our species, its a death sentence. I don't have a solution. I view the sociopaths as predators in a classic predator-prey cycle. Unfortunately, they are predators who are smart enough not to kill the prey, but rather to enslave them and farm them - guaranteeing an unending supply of dinner for themselves.

----

That's just my view. I would be interested in your opinion as to what "cash value" there is in ponerology. That is, can this knowledge be operationalized in any useful way?

arendt



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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. You are absolutely right about the unfeasibility of testing for this kind of sociopathy.
Edited on Wed Apr-16-08 09:55 PM by tom_paine
For any number of reasons it would be awful: the power for abuse of the tests, skewing the tests, using tests to dispatch political enemies, etc.

I never suggested such a thing. I was outlining the problem, sadly I have no solutions. This is no surprise, after 8000 years the only partial solution I can see was the Founding Fathers' creation of Checks and Balances plus the Bill of Rights.

So, let me be clear. I would never countenance such testing nor any kind of punishment for "failing" such a test (if there was one).

That would be as awful as Bushevism itself, maybe worse, so I am kind of horrified at the very mention of it. God, no! I did not mean any kind of testing. I don't know what the answer is and it is very possible that to this problem there is no answer.

It is interesting that you mention this in an evolutionary light, something i had not fully considered. Your example of the fish is spot-on, and I have no doubt that it comes from an ancient survival mechanism. Damn, I would love to see some studies on that phenomena, though I think them unlikely to happen.

I am reminded of what is called in psychology the Discount Rate, which sort of prioritizes our fears and is the reason why the longer-term the problem, the more we ignore it. It is also hardwired into us as a survival mechanism, most likely.

To further explain. The maximum example of a Discount Rate is a fish that continues to eat fish food until it dies. It's discount rate is so high (naturally, for it is not sentient, but it makes for a great extreme example) that even as it is eating and swelling to pop, it cannot help but "discount" the longer-term issue that it will soon die from eating too much, so it goes own eating.

If one considers the reverse in an evolutionary/prehistoric setting, which human being was most likely to survive and pass their genes on to the next generation, the person who could discount longer-term issues and focus on survival or the person crippled with angst over future problems because of a low Discount Rate?

I believe the person with the low discount rate would more often be snuck up on by a sabre-tooth tiger or other predators, and thus we were selected for high Discount Rates over a million years.

Like so many other of our early primate evolutionary adaptations, as you mention, what served us during the times when human were little more than highly intelligent animals has the exact opposite effect in the face of technological progress and civilization. The deep biological imperative, key to survival of the species early on, that most human males are biologically hardwired to want to have sex with (and impregnate, in a pre-birth control world) most every woman we see, has now turned against us and may well be the sole source of all our problems by being the sole source of the problem from which our other problems stem from: overpopulation.

Same thing here. Pondering, philosophical, farsighted people like you and me were less, shall we say necessary to the survival of the species in it's infancy. We were too busy being eaten by tigers while we pondered. Now, as with sex drive, the tables have turned and that which served survival now serves extinction, and that which would have helped extinguish us a million years ago now should be pressed into the service of species survival (I am not speaking specifics here, so please don't ask what I mean by that beyond making my point).

So again, we continue to flesh out a problem with no answer, or only unacceptable answers, such as the hideous test you mentioned. God, no-win situations suck.

Finally, the "cash value of ponerology". It has none. It is far too subjective. I have been living so long under totalitarian rule that I do speak a lot of good and evil. I just never expected in my life to see such division occur in this country, something I simply did not think possible. I did not believe that in this country something like Nazis, where the good people pretty much all lined up on one side and the bad ones along with the gullible and the autohritarian followers on the other.

And even then, statistically it is a certainty that there were "good" Nazis (I know that sounds crazy, but I'll bet what few there were found jobs where they did not have to perform evil directly, like accountant at Auschwitz or something) and "bad" people in the Resistance.

Life is not black and white, it is shades of grey and sometimes it is hard to remember that in this nation at this time. I mean, after all the Bushies, like the Nazis before them, created this situation in kind of self-fulfilling prophecy kind of way, saying "you're either with us or against us," demonizing and dehumanizing opponents, etc.

And now I am rambling in meandering fashion but sometimes I wonder, I mean I know the Bushies like the Nazis before them have distilled evil (what a free person would call evil, which is totalitarianism) and attracted it to their side, but sometimes I wonder by falling into that good/bad dichotomy, as close to being true as it is today, are we not giving them their semantic victory (AGAIN) by playing on their field so to speak? I don't know, but I do know evil when I see it. As I said I just never thought it would distill itself purely enough in one political party or another that a real-life honest to God good/evil liberty/tyranny battle would be waged in this country.

So, saying all of that, I do not embrace poenerology, I reject it. I emphatically reject the idea of testing for sociopathy and taking action based on those tests.

I don't know the answers, I can only see the questions.

Wups, hang on, I think I hear a sabre-tooth tiger sneaking up on me in the weeds!
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Not much to add. We really are on the same page...
One thing I would leave you to ponder, though. Perhaps the energy you spend worrying about whether fighting for survival against these bastards (call them "evil" or whatever you want) is part of that Low Discount rate trait that you speak about.

If we don't stop these folks, we won't be around to worry about whether or not we "fell into their frame".

So, I'm only concerned with defeating them. Even Buddhists grant a right of self-defense.

----

This has been a great exchange. Such a pleasure to have an intelligent conversation.

Have a strawberry, on me.

arendt
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #30
36. That goes back atcha', arendt. Always a pleasure to chat with you.
You always hold up your end of the conversation with interesting insights, and I know that in those few areas we disagree, it will be civilly and respectfully.

Not much of a big fan of strawberries, though. Think I'll have a banana instead. And I will try to remember how the imminent danger of totalitarianism's rise makes each day that much more precious, and each banana tastier.

Bottom line: that is the attitude to have, making something positive out of a terrible situation that may sooner or later become a horrific situation. If nothing else, I thank you for reminding me of that.

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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. I'm glad you agree about the zero cash value of ponerology...
it seems to have sparked a lot of discussion here at DU; but it will lead nowhere (for reasons we discussed). Therefore, it is a time-waster and a distraction. But to jump into a ponerology thread and try to explain that would be futile.

So, I'm just ignoring the whole subject.

arendt
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. There's a ponerology thread?
I think perhaps I'd rather spend an hour amidst the flames of GD-P than go on that thread with my apparently "bad attitude" towards ponerology.

We are all humans, with all the same weaknesses. And not a damn one of us can be trusted with unchecked power because of it. The Founding Fathers understood that.

I think I will join you in ignoring the topic.
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
34. Great conversation, guys. Best I've read so far.
As you can see, I don't post all that often. There's not enough time for that. But this thread expresses so much of what I've been going through, I'll just butt in here to mention the one element that is new in this entire sordid stew, and that is the internet. It does connect people worldwide, and at this point to such a degree that it has taken the place of the fourth estate, abdicated by the corporate media.

We are engaged in an information war, as Alex Jones recognized years ago. These days, well-informed people no longer get their news from the MSM. In fact, TV pundits have to check out popular blogs to get an edge. Congress has to deal with millions of emails, petitions, faxes, phone calls from furious constituents who got the latest news from sites like this one here.

Yes, I agree, on some days it looks like resistance won't make a dent in the Borg. But there are days when I know that the tide is turning, even if it's excruciatingly slow for those who've seen the writing on the wall in the year 2000 coup. But now, We the People have a tool like no other ever before. And while it is obvious that the fall-out from America's regression into fascism will be horrendous (and already is), it is also clear that the segment of the US population that is still adolescent in their development will be forced to grow up. And fast. Pain does that to you. Just like the Germans had to grow up when their world collapsed - ideologically, physically and environmentally - never to return.

The last people on earth that will follow authoritarian, pseudo-patriotic brouhaha of the Bushie bran are the Germans. Guys, I know whereof I speak. I grew up there. I carry that collective karma in my genes.

Now it's America's turn. That's one reason I am here at this time. Ready to die... and for another strawberry. With cream. Ah, this cake is delicious, as the Zen master said just before he croaked.







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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. I'm honored by your rare post (seriously)...
Its sad that you have to preface a compliment with "no sarcasm" tags, but DU is a pretty brutal place.

As I said up-thread, it is the large-scale part of America that is dying. The small-scale and the local are where the battle will be fought.

So long as the rat bastards at the top can't declare martial law and start transporting people, the information war will go on. So long as they can't get a handle on the internet without killing their own communications, the resistance will continue.

I really wonder who is dumb enough to get their news from the Corporate Media anymore. The "bitter" nonsense, followed by the Pope-gasm, while ignoring the torture memo revalations is "three strikes" in a week for the CM. They are buck naked. They have no credibility. With Desktop PCs literally selling for $200, there is absolutely no excuse for people not to be online. Only ignorance and denial can keep one from the truth.

Thanks for speaking up. Its nice to know there are lurkers (no offense, just don't have a term for it with a positive connotatio) with a good attitude on DU.

arendt
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
40. last kick before the 24 hrs to rec runs out. n/t
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
41. I would have fed the strawberry to the mice
Surely they could be lured away from the vine by a juicy fruit.

At least long enough to distract them while I swept them away into the jaws of the tiger below
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