I am a ..... Well, I don't know for sure anymore (Long Rant)

[WLKjr]

This is a response to another post I saw today.


When I was 18 and could vote, I registered as a Democrat.

I am 23 now, and have seen quite a bit of the 'real' world than the view I had when I was 18.

I work 12 hour days, pay way too much in taxes, have a mortgage (which I am proud to say I can afford becuase I was smart and didn't fall for the adjustable rate crap, that's another rant), getting married soon and have a dog. Over all, things aren't too bad (yet they could always be worse).

I have been away from DU for a long time, only making occasional posts few and far between since '04.

I listen to local talk radio now, since I drive a lot. I used to listen to AAR, but thier programming really went downhill IMHO. Matter of fact, I remember the very day I stopped listening to AAR and cancelled my XM subscription. I just couldn't stand the Young Turks first show.

1. There have been a lot of conflicting thoughts and feelings towards many of my former "liberal" leanings over the past few years. One thing that really set me off is the fact that Hillary Clinton believes she has the right to force me to buy and have healthcare. I already have insurance, good insurance, and if I didn't have that, I can go and get Medicare/Medicaid if I needed it. I would have to fill out a lot of red tape paperwork but I could get it. But I also decided to do the best I could to take care of myself so I don't have to make those dreadful trips to the doctor. Hillary doesn't have the right to tell me I have to have anything becuase she says I have to have it. I guess it's becuase I am starting to become a individualist and want to do things on my own, be my own man.

2. I witnessed a small business last year get blasted with taxes to the point where they didn't have enough money to purchase a rather large order from me, not to mention all the time they spent preparing taxes instead of remodeling houses and making money to spend with me and other suppliers. I have talked to a lot of business owners since then about this subject, becuase I was curious and wanted to validate some thoughts I had about business and taxes. Taxes suck, plain and simple. That's when I read about the Fair Tax. Wow, I wish I could not have almost 10k taken, yes, taken from me every year so it can be spent on stupid shit and or redistributed to everybody. I am rather ashamed to be getting $600 in a couple of weeks because it's someone elses money along with mine, and I didn't 'earn' it, someone else did.

3. I am sick of some Democrats and some Republicans thinking they have the master plan for everything and just bickering everyday instead of working together and doing thier job. I would like to take everyone of them aside and ask them, "WTF are you doing for me, my nieghbor and my country? I sure do not see any results and if you were in a real job, you would most certainly be fired!"

4. I do not like war, no one likes war. But I also have very strong feelings about defense. We have (contrary to popular belief) the best military the world has ever seen, and even when stretched to the limits, it does not break. Diplomacy works......sometimes. Other times, the only thing some will understand is a F-22 dropping a suprise in your cave. I didn't agree with Iraq, would have rather went to Saudi Arabia and Iran, but now that we are there, you can't leave it a mess. I really wish Harry and Nancy would see that and come up with a better plan that they have. Democrats are smarter (I hope) than that.

5. FAIR TAX FAIR TAX FAIR TAX

6. I am all about going green. I wish instead that people would start ecouraging being more efficient instead of just using less or buying all organic or getting more and more made in China mercury filled compact florecents (I am guilty of this, my whole house has them, the natural light ones though), here's an idea, how about turn off some lights, don't drive as much, wear a sweater, spend less dough ......wait didn't Jimmy Carter suggest some things like this??? However, I am not for sacrificing energy independence just to satisfy someone who says I need to pay $4 a gallon because we can't tap our own oil/natural gas. It's BS.

7. Get rid of NAFTA, implement the FAIR TAX and LEVEL THE DAMN PLAYING FIELD FOR US BASED BUSINESSES. BTW, build the damn fence already, patrol the borders and start inforcing current immigration laws. There's no need for any more, we have enough to be effective if they were simply enforced.

8. I was told once that before you go around preaching how to live to people, you should have your own house in order first. However, we should not become complacent with what is happening around us.

9. As far as Gays/Lesbians - although I personally don't agree with it, I could care less what you want to do wether it be getting married/adopting kids or whatever - it's none of my business or the governments business. Live and let live I say.

9.5 As far as abortion - See above, although I do not agree with it, its none of my damn business, I don't have to live with the decision and the government has better things to worry about. Like doing thier job.



I don't like Hillary Clinton, am on the fence about Barack and possibly could vote for McCain if Hillary get's the nomination. What does that make me? I am having real problems with the way things are going with current democratic leadership (not Dean, just the congress criters)

Flame away, I look forward to your responses, I am in a fiesty mood right now!

[Mojambo]

1. You're a conservative. n/t

[angstlessk]

2. no, he's a neo con...his list in order is him, his community and his country

he is first on the list...it is the me me me of the republican reight wing!

on edit: oh yeah, now Nancy and Harry are the Iraq decision makers...not boosh???

[WLKjr]

6. No, Bush made the decision n/t.

[angstlessk]

9. what do you mean then by this passage???

I didn't agree with Iraq, would have rather went to Saudi Arabia and Iran, but now that we are there, you can't leave it a mess. I really wish Harry and Nancy would see that and come up with a better plan that they have. Democrats are smarter (I hope) than that.


AND...WHY THE HELL WOULD WE INVADE IRAN???

[ellisonz]

175. Much less Saudi Arabia...

[Mojambo]

7. I reserve neocon for those holding a particular foreign policy view

But I agree. He does appear to have bought into the me me me, screw the commons world view.

[WLKjr]

16. I am not saying screw everyone else

I was stating things I have seen and feel. I am not saying screw you or screw anyone else.

[Mojambo]

25. Your whole evolution into a self-made man and individualist

and antipathy towards using government as a tool to improve the lives of people might have made me judge you unfairly.

It's just that's the same rhetoric that selfish asshole libertarians use so you can see why I might have made that mistake.

[WLKjr]

31. I know what you meant

DU hasn't changed much since I last posted something like this in the GD forum. Everyone is so quick to jump to conclusions instead of listening to a person's views and why they are thinking that way. I have been opening my hears to all points of view and can point out many similarities in most of them. It's just disagreement of how to reach the same goal.

I might sound selfish, but I am not going to treat someone like dirt and not help them. But I will not help someone who is not willing to help themselves.

[Mojambo]

33. I'll start handing out bootstraps immediately. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. And how do you know they are not willing to help themselves?

And who are YOU to judge?

Sorry but that has always bothered me when people say someone is not willing to help themselves. How the hell do YOU know they aren't willing? Is there some criterion chart somewhere we should consult so we know just who isn't willing to help themselves and who is?

[WLKjr]

85. Simple, I don't

I am not going to lie to you. Again, I am referring to my life experiences thus far. I have a brother in law that is 25, has a college degree and could get a really good job right now if he wanted it. But he doesn't, instead he mooches off of his grand parents for money for his every night partying he has been doing since he got out of college. I have tried to help him in getting a job, but he doesn't try to help himself at all so I don't even bother anymore.

[raccoon]

186. And as long as his grandparents continue enabling him, he probably

will continue to do just what he's doing.

[PaDem]

177. I help people who won't help themselves all the time.............

the purpose of my assistance is to get them to the point in their life that they will help themselves. For instance, some people are so depressed that they can't or won't "help themselves". Helping them get the right kind of treatment is helping them get to the point where they can help themselves.

I would add that the fair tax is a total non-starter, is less just than our current tax system, and would hurt middle class Americans badly.

[angstlessk]

26. the commons, dear, the commons..not people..it is where we gather together

and pool our resources to gain momentum against the storms that are inevitable in life!

[OKthatsIT]

58. Hey...I was raised Socialist and my grand parents were Communists

until they found out how bad Stalin was...

I understand your confusion, too. I was raised to SEE every angle out there. And I must say, Democrats remind me more of RepublicanLites than they do anything else these days.

I wanted Kucinich. I support Cynthia McKinney. I don't know if Obama will surrender, after he's in office. I'm hoping he won't. But it's very scary...these are extremely delicate times.

I don't think you're a NeoCon, either. Or a Republican. My stepmother was a socialist also. She personally would never have an abortion under any circumstances. But, she also felt like you...she wouldn't impose on others, her will or her judgement.

I can understand your feelings about taxes...but my complaint has more to do with the lack of representation. We all know Bush&Co are criminals and should be impeached. If they were impeached for criminal acts, then we could also impeach the Supreme Court Justices. These new Court Justices are born and bred from the Federalist Society. They are Corporatists. They would rather focus on Maritime Law than OUR CONSTITUTION's description of unalienable rights.

Hmmm, so...I've been a Dem my whole life. But if we continue down this road we're on..I think we'll all be faced with 'what was behind our polarization' all these many decades...looking for answers because we're being dished so much betrayal. Maybe it is our destiny to figure who profits most from our polarization...and end this tired charade.

[WLKjr]

63. You said it a little better than I did

I am wondering where all the bitterness is comming from on both sides. Its stupid, and it's just causing them to waste time doing nothing for you or me while still collecting a paycheck and getting re-elected.

[OKthatsIT]

84. You're right..I mean Left...grrrrr

Yeah, don't let them get to you. They need more time to wake up. Maybe when they see no one really gives a damn in Washington. We all want Daddy to rescue Us...that would be so nice. Well who wouldnt? But that's exactly how we all get fooled by politicans, isn't it.

Oh boy...it's time we all really LOOKED at face value and stop with the 'iconic diversions' or personification of gods. Honestly, I look at Americans as children. I've had to after watching all my life.

My mother worked her ass off in the Civil Rights Movement, Nuclear Freeze, AntiWar, Labor organizing..etc, etc...and she's now getting old and watching all of her dreams for humanity just fade away and a future of VeriChip and property confiscations ...I've gotten to the place where I just can't talk to her about the real war on Americans. I just can't let her know, "Mom, I don't know if we're going to make it."

at this point..it's just cruel.

[WLKjr]

4. Is that a bad thing

I alwasy considered myself a Fiscally Conservative Democrat. I like to speak my mind.

[angstlessk]

5. You are NOT a Democrat..remember JFK..ask not what your country can do for you...

republicans are me first the rest of you can have my leftovers..

[WLKjr]

8. You are mis-interpreting that statement

I have always interpretted that statement from JFK as a message for people to not be dependant on the government for everything, but to seek out how to make the country better by honest hard work.

[angstlessk]

12. WOW..hard work and you too can make the billions the hedge fund

operators rake in...push that broom harder..teach harder...fight that fire harder...you too can become a billionair..just like those people who push paper harder!!!

[WLKjr]

15. You are jealous

Why care so much if you are making x amount and someone else is making xxxxxx amount, why do you have to have the same thing they have to be happy? That's the thing I do not understand. I went from working at Walmart as a clerk to working IT and growing in skills and salary for the past 3 years. Seems to me that if you work hard, good things eventually come but it takes paitence. I worked 3 years at Walmart before getting into college and getting an AAS degree.

[Richard Steele]

21. Jealous of what? Your ability to pass off Limbaugh talking points as your own opinion?

Pfft.

[WLKjr]

29. Rush my have it as a TP, but let me tell you where I am comming from

to not be jealous of the jones's or to even try to keep up with them. Some are content where they are in life, some strive for and achive more, and some simply have more and will always have more. I strive, I know what I have to do to reach certain levels in my career. Each goal I have set thus far has increased my pay check.

I learned a lot from my grandpa, who was a democrat and voted as such. He tought me that if you work hard and are honest, you can go as far as you want in life. So far it's been true.

What I am trying to explain here is this point. The thing that I really don't understand is why people want to mope and groan instead of taking charge of thier life instead of giving up on life. I have a family member who has wanted to get a house for a long time, but every time I see them they are always moaning about how they will never get it. But guess what, they aren't saving for it so they must not want it that bad.

I am sure that if you and I really wanted to become gazillion billionaires, we could. But I can tell you right now I am not going to work towards that, I have better things to do.

[angstlessk]

32. does Mayberry still exist?? thought it went the way of the buggy whip???

we could all become gazilion billionaires if we just wanted to..is that ONLY in America or can say a Bangladeshi also become a gazillion billionaire if he worked hard enough???

[WLKjr]

38. well, not that I am aware of

No, that's not only in America, but I am not familiar with Bangladesh, other than phoning them for tech support ;-p !

I was speaking in general terms, not referring to any particular place.

[Richard Steele]

39. You already told me, and I'm not buying it. Go sell it at FreeRepublic where you FOUND it.

nm

[WLKjr]

40. That site is still around???

Sorry, I haven't even looked for it in a long time.

[Richard Steele]

44. Not buying that either.

Pull the other one- it's got BELLS on.

[FirstLight]

80. You are leaving out a VERY important point to your explanation

You sound like a white male, no child support or family to support yet...yes?

Try the same set of "values" when you are a woman recovering from domestic violence and the shreds that you have left to work with of your credit, your sanity, your health...
Try the same set of values when you are a minority and have every one profiling you to the point you may have a record at 23, even if you never did anything, and that affects your hirability for decades...

This country is no longer a place where a set of values and hard work pay off... if you have any rough patch, a family member getting sick, a loved one dying, a child with a disability...your job is usually the first thing to suffer, and there are less and less jobs and options today than even two years ago

reality check, junior

[WLKjr]

92. almost right one

If you consider having a dog as counting for a child......lol (ask my fiance' about that)

How can you have a record, if you have never been arrested and convicted??? I thought you had to be convicted of a felony before you got a rap sheet.


I know what your saying, it's hard and I was told it was but I am mostly bitching about the fact that the government wants more and more of my money, when I don't have a whole lot extra left to give and still be comfortable. As hard as I have worked I should have been farther along that what I am, but with the way things are starting to get it's not what I imagined would happen.

reality check taken.

[FirstLight]

134. LIFE is taking more and more of my money these days!

...and I made almost %50 less in 2007 than in 2006, because of losing a job and being a single mom and unable to work full time because my daughter just got diagnosed in 2006 with a birth defect that we are STILL in the process of fully diagnosing (2 years later, medi-CAL issues and specialists and traveling 300 miles for a blood test)...

that, and the fact that my ex just QUIT his job and went underground to avoid child support again...so there's more helpful "income" lost (which, had been very stable for the past 8 years)

How do I pay the electric bill AND feed my kids? I don't know yet

so please, take into account that most of us here are struggling in some way, and you having less disposable income is but a small symptom of a far greater pox on us ALL... see you in the bread line!

[WLKjr]

147. I can relate believe it or not

My dad was the same way, hell, he still is. My mother struggled with 3 boys and a job that a union tore apart (not ripping on unions as a whole, just this particular one). I don't know how she did it but she managed. I hope that your daughter gets better.

I am trying to figure out how to pay off student loans myself, I'll never use SM ever again. Sorry if I sounded callous, I don't wake up in the mornings trying to be a asshole to the world.

[raccoon]

188. Two comments I have:

“Seems to me that if you work hard, good things eventually come”

Yes, sometimes, but not always. Look at the people who worked for Enron. I’m sure lots of them worked hard.

“I am sure that if you and I really wanted to become gazillion billionaires, we could.”

How?

[angstlessk]

23. ya shoulda took a spelling class..just sayin!!! Jealous..not likely

just outraged they claim their income is capital gains..when they are actually paid as income since none of the funds they receive (from selling) is at risk..the only risk they have is not earning as much as they do! Like you. You are a salesman so are hedge fund managers, but they claim capital gains is their source of income and they pay 15% income tax, bet you would love to have their tax break!!! I ain't jealous, honey..I am flummoxed!!!

[WLKjr]

35. sorry, I always forget that spell check feature

You should see my emails ;-p , for the longest time I could not spell quote right (wait did I spell it right this time?)


Thanks for the correction, I will edit that right now!

[angstlessk]

52. they don't have spell check at freerebpublic do they? n/t

[WLKjr]

54. I wouldn't know

I never have posted there.

Jebus, it was an honest mistake. I didn't realize people would get upset about a simple spelling mistake.

[Kool Kitty]

151. No-republicans are "Me first and the hell with everybody else".

[Mojambo]

10. That's up to you. I think it's a dysfunctional world view personally.

But you gotta be what you are.

And you sound like a conservative.

[OKthatsIT]

62. You mean to tell me...(looking at the crumbling dollar)

that you would opt to spend when the economy is collapsing?

Do you understand what is going on with the banking cartel?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

No, he's a Libertarian

:-(

[OKthatsIT]

86. Why?

Do you know why?

[trotsky]

184. Precisely.

It would probably take losing his job and/or insurance to change that.

[alittlelark]

60. Thank You!!!! I read through the post

and was wondering how to word my response.


Thank You, You did it for me, in a very concise and to-the-point way.:toast:

[WLKjr]

64. But I am not a republican

why jump to conclusions without trying to see the point I was trying to make?

[alittlelark]

78. Look in the mirror, or, just peruse the posts here

Sometimes the truth hurts.


There's always "Republicans Anonymous" I've heard they can help if you Really Want to change. There are many Logic courses involved.


Give them a shot !-800-IMADICK.

[WLKjr]

94. ......

Sorry I pissed in your Cheerios too.

[alittlelark]

139. Why would you piss in my Cheerios? Nasty.

Why would you even think of 'pissing in my cheerios"....


Honestly....... WTF!

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. No, he's a narcissist. n/t

[papau]

3. Fair tax is a kiss to the rich as poor/middle class pay more - the rest is center/Dem

[WLKjr]

11. Tell me how I would pay more

You want to know my annual income???

40k a year, almost 10k of that goes towards taxes, so I only actually bring home 30k. With the Fair Tax, I would bring home 40k, and if I didn't decide to go buy stupid shit all the time and save a little bit for a rainy day, I wouldnt pay nearly as much in taxes and niether would you.

[angstlessk]

14. does the fair tax pay your social security..or would it go into one of those

retirement accounts (like the state funds for retirement) that have lost more money since boosh took office than they ever have historically???

[WLKjr]

18. The problem with SS is beyond Bush

It's with congress, and has been for a long time. They all treat it like some big piggy bank and never put any money back. I have already started making plans to not even count that income into my future retirement funds, and have started investing in other programs such as an IRA and other real estate investments.

[lumberjack_jeff]

91. We were all 23 once.

We all knew that we didn't need social security, social programs or insurance. We knew that we didn't need to participate in society. We knew not of the general welfare.

Enjoy the good old days. Wisdom arrives with suddenness.

[WLKjr]

95. response

Okay, before I guess I should have said that I personally am not making SS a big part of my retirement, so I have invested in other means to supplement that (if it's still around), I have insurance, and if I didn't I would find a way to get it. Why is everyone thinking that I am saying I know everything, I openly admit I don't, and never want to know everything.

[angstlessk]

99. honey, no one is accusing you of knowing 'everythng'..maybe 'nothing'..but 'everything'

not even close!!!

[WLKjr]

103. I have been accused of that too :-)

again, sorry I pissed in your Cheerios tonight.

[zeos3]

36. Here's how you'd pay more,

10K is about 25% of your 40K income. The proposed "Fair Tax" would implement a national sales tax of about 34%. This would be a tax on EVERYTHING (food, medical care, new house, fuel, etc.) The national savings rate was negative last year, that means people were spending their income plus more. These people would pay an effective rate of 34%. The rich would see their tax rate go down because they spend much less of their income.

[WLKjr]

50. Okay, here's my response

How many new houses am I going to buy during the year??? Fuel already has a tax on it, so it's not adding a tax. You get a pre-bate check at the begginning of every month to offset the projected taxes you would spend on necessities. So you get money for those imposed taxes before you even buy the food.

The savings rates are low becuase 1.) people are spending beyond thier means and 2.) inflation

If you were to not buy buy buy, your tax rate would be the same as the rich. Right now it's not that way, we pay more on INCOME TAX and then you pay tax on everything else. So essentially you and I are being taxed more than once. DIVIDEND TAXES are completely different, and most wealthy people are living off thier dividend check (not thier pay check like we have) and thus do not have income taxes taken out. I couldn't believe this myself when I first heard it then I went to a CPA and confirmed that is the case.

[alittlelark]

65. You sound terribly desperate to defend your conservative views...

....perhaps you are in the wrong place.

[WLKjr]

70. Just having a open discussion.

The forums are lively here and have always been, that's why I keep comming back from time to time.

[alittlelark]

79. Try 'Republicans Anonymous' at 1-800-IMADICK

[zeos3]

93. LOL, just letting you know I'm gonna use that one

[zeos3]

89. OK, a house is a major purchase

but add 34% to it for everyone who's buying (not just you). Fuel has a already has a tax on it, so add MORE of a tax.

I don't know about the pre-bate check but what are the "projected taxes?" I thought you didn't like taking this year's rebate check and now you're saying you'll take one every month? How much waste is in that pre-bate check like this years rebate (the cost of printing and mailing them all out) isn't it cheaper not to collect this? (But then we wouldn't get that warm fuzzy feeling of getting our money back, it would go unnoticed if we kept it in the first place)

Savings rates: I agree PLUS 3.)stagnant wages for 30yrs for those who haven't been laid off or outsourced

As for the last paragraph, things would be better still for the wealthy because they do pay a small tax on unearned income. It's much easier not to buy buy buy when your money outweighs your needs.

[WLKjr]

98. Okay,

The check coming is a "bail-out" and not a actual plan. The government wants you to go out and spend it. I have heard no mention of them suggesting to people that they pay off debt, put it into the bank(s) in a savings account. NO, it's going to be spent by most on frivolous shit.

You really should take a look at the Fair Tax plan so you could comment on it with more understanding. I am not asking that you accept it, just read it.

[zeos3]

125. What does that have to do with anything that I wrote?

The Fair Tax is a scam and if you were really concerned about people who make 40K a year and small businesses you'd agree.

You really should understand the crap they are offering when you look at the Fair Tax plan.

In their 1983 book, Low Tax, Simple Tax, Flat Tax, Hall and Rabushka noted that their flat tax "will be a tremendous boon to the economic elite." They also said "it is an obvious mathematical law that lower taxes on the successful will have to be made up by higher taxes on average people."

Even the Reagan Treasury Dept testified that ANY "flat-rate tax" would "would involve a significant redistribution of tax liability" away from the wealthy and onto the average taxpayer.

Good job ignoring the points I made earlier

[WLKjr]

129. Fair Tax is not the same as the Flat-Tax, try again

Good job reading the actual bill.

[zeos3]

138. It is the same thing

and look at the Tres Dept quote "ANY FLAT-RATE TAX"

Just because they call it a Fair Tax doesn't mean that it is. If I create "Happy Happy Joy Time" and "Happy Happy Joy Time" consists of me kicking you in the nuts repeatedly, it doesn't mean that we are both gonna benefit from "Happy Happy Joy Time"

[WLKjr]

149. Bull shit

how can you and I paying the same exact rate when we go buy say a pair of shoes, not fair. So if I decide to not buy those shoes and you do that's somehow unfair to you that you made a choice to pay a tax on those shoes????

[zeos3]

153. It's not the difference between you and me

it's the difference between the top 5% or so that will see their effective tax rate decrease and shift that burden onto the rest of us, how many times do I have to repeat this?

[WLKjr]

159. thier rate doesnt decrease

what part of "everyone pays the same rate of retail tax" do you not understand???


That 5% you speak of already are not paying the Federal Income Tax, you and I are. The Fair Tax eliminates the FICA tax. You take home your entire pay check and only will pay as much tax as you choose to pay, you would have control over how much you decide to pay.

[zeos3]

164. What part of "the tax they pay, as a % of their income

will decrease" don't you understand?

How about lifting the cap for FICA and lowering the rate a bit to help those 40K earners and small businesses you're pretending to care about?

What are you, a PR guy for Boortz?

[angstlessk]

128. I saw the prebate..and the rich and the poor alike get the same DOLE from the government

you and your spouse would get $399 per month and I recon it is to pay for your bootstraps??? Hell talk about welfare babies...for 1 kid the DOLE would kick in another $67...hell go forth and multiply..but do not forget to stop at 7 like the prebate does!!!???***

[WLKjr]

137. here's the way I read it

Right now food (not liquids, but things like bread, eggs, apples etc) are not taxed correct? There's a tax eliment in each of those items from the time they are harvested, to packaging, to transportation, to the point of you buying it. That's how the final price is determined that you currently pay.

The fair tax will tax food, but that's where that prebate check comes in. It is to essentially eliminate that tax you have paid so you are not paying the tax. Prices actually may come down since the built in tax component isn't there anymore and only applies to the product at the retail level.


Now it's different if you go out and buy the house or plasma screen tv, then that isn't something your are reimbursed for because it's not an essential item (the tv at least is what I am refering too mainly here). now if you were to not apply that prebate to your essential purchases then yes you could look at it as paying more tax I guess.

[Kool Kitty]

154. Actually, I think that most people are going to use the

money to pay a bill or save it. I know I'm saving it.

[WLKjr]

158. same here, I am saving some, using the rest to pay bills. n/t

[angstlessk]

97. no, you make 40,000 you would NOT get a prebate..that is for the poor only

and if you spend any money on credit cards and pay interest you will be paying interest on 35-50% increase on purchases in federal sales taxes PLUS your local and state sales taxes, so might I suggest you NEVER purchase anything EVER on credit as long as there is a 'FAIR TAX'!!!

[WLKjr]

100. have you ever read the plan??

I am not asking you to accept it or agree with it, but read the actual plan. And besides, there are people already paying those kinds of interest rates on credit cards.

[proud2BlibKansan]

82. I make over 30% more than you do and take home HALF

by the time I pay taxes and insurance and retirement. And I always owe even more on April 15.

But I would gladly pay even more in taxes for truly universal health care, college tuition for our kids and adequately funded public schools.

[WLKjr]

102. I see what your saying

And it sucks, I am not looking forward to paying more as I make more either.

[proud2BlibKansan]

174. I don't mind at all

My income is higher than 95% of the people on this planet. I have a roof over my head, food in my cupboard and a car to get me to work. I also donate money and time to the poor. I believe in HELPING people. 'There but for the grace of God go I' has been a guiding force in my life. Success isn't a personal quest for me. I am grateful for what I have and avoid thinking about what I DON'T have.

[lumberjack_jeff]

109. The fair tax is an idiotic idea from a long line of idiotic ideas.

It's is as if natural selection rewards stupidity.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/files/bartlett_fair_tax.pdf

What happens to your business on the day after they implement a 34% inflation rate? What happens the next year when, because of the resulting economic collapse combined with shitty projections, the rate goes up to 75%?

Shitty projections? Here's an example: state and federal governments are expected to pay 34% on all its purchases too. Does this not imply a need for a tax increase to pay their tax bill?

Here's another. The fairtax projections use a 100% tax base. What does that mean? Well, rent gets taxed at 34%, for one. So does gasoline and food and doctor bills and your credit card interest, and your car payment interest and legal fees and your mortgage interest.

New houses would become 34% more expensive. Your post infers that you are a supplier to homebuilders. What might a 34% tax on each house do to your business?
http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/unspinning_the_fairtax.html

Because everyone will "stop buying stupid shit" the tax rate will need to approach infinity to be revenue neutral. At a minimum, it would need to be 50%. Tax dodging would be ubiquitous. You think that the IRS sucks now? Wait until they are forced to police the black market.

Here's what the Brookings institution has to say about it:

The notion that a national retail sales tax could effectively replace the entire federal tax system is a pleasant diversion. But careful research has shown that it is a dangerous and ludicrous fantasy.

<1>The 23 percent rate that Rep. John Linder says would be needed is really a 30 percent markup at the cash register. To be clear, under his proposal, if a good costs $100 before the sales tax is imposed, it would cost $130 (not $123) including the sales tax. Most people would call this a 30 percent sales tax.

<2>Academic research shows that the calculations that lead Rep. Linder to this 30 percent rate contain a big mathematical mistake. As a result, using his tax rate would raise the federal deficit by $6 trillion over the next 10 years! Avoiding this would require a 42 percent sales tax or markup.

<3>Rep Linder’s tax rate also assumes there would be no tax avoidance or evasion, even though most serious analysts think the underground economy would thrive under the sales tax. Allowing for just half as much evasion as exists under the income tax would raise the required sales tax rate to above 50 percent.

<4>It seems doubtful that people would tolerate a tax at that rate on necessities such as food, health, house purchases and mortgage payments. (Yes, Rep. Linder’s tax would tax a good chunk of mortgage interest.) <5>The number of people without health insurance, for example, would likely rise by more than 10 million. But if we exempt any of these items, the required rate would have to rise.

<6>The required rate would be even higher if Rep. Linder’s tax were not allowed to impose massive burdens on state and local governments. “Paying” for the federal government by taxing state governments does not reduce tax burdens, it just shifts them. <7>So expect state and local taxes to rise.

<8>Countries that have tried to enforce retail sales taxes at rates above 10 percent have uniformly given up because of evasion. Likewise, no state sales tax has rates that high. If we did impose a 50 percent or higher sales tax, it would be evaded massively.

The tax system’s many problems require serious thinking and creative solutions. But a national retail sales tax is not the answer.

[WLKjr]

113. Go read the bill, that's all I am going to say. n/t

[zeos3]

141. Take a math and/or accounting class then reread the bill

[WLKjr]

150. Talk to an accountant, I have done that already

and I have taken multiple math classes and some account classes myself.

[zeos3]

156. Then why can't you see

this "obvious mathematical law?" You asked, in your OP, what you are (rep, dem). The answer is you are an excellent lackey for the big money masters.

[WLKjr]

161. You can't answer my question, but you can call me names

Real smart Clark.


Come back when you have something to nice to say and you have read the Fair Tax Bill.

[angstlessk]

163. I hate it when people say "you did not answer my question" and there is no

question in sight??? WTF is your question??? are you too lazy to reiterate it?? if that is so..bet you ain't that hard worker you claim to be???

[zeos3]

165. I've answered his question

This guy is the internet version of a door to door salesman trying to hard sell the fair tax

[angstlessk]

169. agree..his orignal post might just have been the door opener??

btw..welcome!!!

[zeos3]

167. I've answered your questions

You just ignore what I've said. Is there a name for this fair tax cult you're a part of?

[Richard Steele]

13. I'm sure- you're a Republican. And not a terribly HONEST one.

nm

[OKthatsIT]

87. That's not true. You're in a box. A very small one.

[AutumnMist]

17. I think it is all a matter of perspective and government

In some times we want to give more power to the government and at others less.

If it is something we like and agree with we want the government to step in and use their power, if it is something we don't want to happen we tend to get upset when the government takes control over it.

We don't trust bush, but some are willing to trust others with the same powers it seems....

In the end we keep coming back to the same question: How much control over our lives are we willing to cede to a group of a few hundred people?

The less the better to people like me. But that does NOT mean we should not use the collective power of the people to better the lives of us all (through defense, health care etc - afterall, more people die each year because of lack of a good health care system here than did on 9/11...)

[The Straight Story]

19. Note to all: I posted the above :)

I thought I was logged in as me but after posting I realized my wife was logged in :) Sorry hun!

[angstlessk]

34. YOU Straight Story...are the culprit of this babble de goop?

[The Straight Story]

37. Yeah....

But I can blame the booze for it :)

[angstlessk]

41. OOPS...sorry

on edit...edited

[The Straight Story]

49. I am not saying that at all

I think the govt SHOULD help people.

I guess maybe I just wrote it wrong :)

At the same time I think we need to keep em on a 'freedom leash' - helping someone else does not mean you can control them ;)

[WLKjr]

53. exactly

[angstlessk]

57. I totally agree..and agree with almost all you post..I just thought you

said you were the OP you know ..the twit that started this all? I was flabbergasted at the thought it was you, really!!!

[The Straight Story]

67. Tis but a scratch...

:rofl: All is good :) BTW - Thank you for all you have done.

Things are weird now, but getting better.

[angstlessk]

121. as long as they move in the correct direction...all is well..it is those

damn-ed reversals that are horrid!!!

[The Straight Story]

51. Tis ok

crap happens :)

Sorry if I came across as callous. Was not my intention.

[angstlessk]

45. sorry thought you meant you were the OP and not just a commentator

you need to be more specific..

[Richard Steele]

42. Not this thread- he just meant post #17 there. nm

[OKthatsIT]

90. Can you be more descriptive?

babble de goop?

[angstlessk]

105. sugar, I was replying to a long time friend..sorry you do not like

my 'silly words'

[OKthatsIT]

114. oh..a friend. interesting

[WLKjr]

22. I totally aggree

I am not saying that something doesnt need to be done with healthcare, I just heard hillary make the comment that she was going to make it mandatory for everyone to have it and that kind of set me off.

I simply don't want the goverment to make me do something like that.

[angstlessk]

30. I think we all agree about the role of government on some issues

protecting the citizens is agreed upon by all..only some think it is all about weapons and care not a twit about the poison in our food and environment. Some think we need to control individuals (all..republicans) and others think we need to control corporations (most..democrats).

[The Straight Story]

55. Spot on!

We really need more control over companies - but so often we see people getting on board with controlling individuals.

[WLKjr]

56. That's about the jist of it. n/t

[live love laugh]

20. "What does that make me?" If you vote for McCain, it makes you an idiot. n/t

[WLKjr]

59. I wouldn't do that

I think he is a little crazy, and if it came down to Clinton and Him I would have to seriously think about even voting, becuase I couldn't select either. Right now I am for Obama, only have a couple of gripes but those are mostly between my brother and I.

[Fox Mulder]

24. You sound like a Ron Paul supporter.

You're not on the right message board.

[WLKjr]

66. I have met some Ron Paul supporters

They are kind of scary (at least the ones I have spoken to).

[OKthatsIT]

96. That's really escapist ...runaway from a real discussion

a discussion you dont really want to have. Maybe its you who are on the wrong message board after all.

[Fox Mulder]

148. What discussion?

He's got a lot of conservative views. This is a LIBERAL message board.

[WLKjr]

152. Labels suck

I hate the fact that everyone has to label everything conservative or liberal or libertarian or whatever. Labels suck

[lukasahero]

191. Dude - you ASKED to be labeled

WTF am I missing: "what does that make me?" And now you're whining that people are telling you?

[The Wielding Truth]

27. It means that you have been distracted by minor issues and

you have lost track of the biggest issue. that issue is to turn this country in a different direction.

If Hillary does win the nomination, she will bring a new (if not perfect)direction to government.

Step back and view this country and remember the losses we have taken.

From ignoring the 9-11 warnings, to sending unprepared soldiers into an elected battle, to the abandonment of Osama bin Laden in the caves and mountains of Tora Bora, to Katrina's deserted victims, to the torture in Abu Graib and $3Trillion debt. These along with the shredding of the Bill of Rights and the constant lies behind smiles that lead to innocent deaths.

If you can put all of that aside and not vote Democratic,you will continue to give your permission for all these atrocities and more.

[angstlessk]

28. well put, Weilding...that and the encroachment on our freedoms

it is insidious and constant and it seems if McSame is elected it will continue unabated for 100 years or more!!

on edit: fixed stuff!

[Midlodemocrat]

43. I have socks older than you.

[Richard Steele]

46. And I'll bet they smell better than this thread does. nm

[WLKjr]

69. I am sorry I pissed in your Cherios tonght DickSteele

is that your porno name????


lol, just kidding.

[Richard Steele]

73. I don't believe you are. Not even a little bit.

And I don't believe you "don't know what you are anymore".
Your OP here is no product of confusion, it's crafted of DELIBERATION
and carefully-worded INTENT.

Different.

[WLKjr]

104. Carefully worded INTENT???

I completely BS'd this off the top of my head,

Again, sorry I pissed in your Cheerios.

[angstlessk]

47. :lmao:

:rofl:

[WLKjr]

68. I am sure you do, and probably are wiser than I too. n/t.

[Trajan]

48. To have a safe, comfortable, secure nation in which to live and raise a family ...

Requires taxation, pure and simple ....

There is no specific reference as to why your customer was unable to pay there 'fair share' of taxes, nor about what was particularly unfair about their tax level .... Again: Someone looking for a free ride to a secure government ? .... It DONT come free ... Someone has gotta pay for all the institutions of government that help maintain ALL of our citizens at at LEAST subsistence levels ....

There is no doubt that the government has a need for taxation in order to defend the country against attack .... It also has been traditionally accepted that taxation to provide schooling is a reasonable expectation. Somewhere in the preamble of the US Constitution you will find the words "Promote The General Welfare" .... It is open to interpretation what that means, but many believe it means that all citizens should be safe and provided with basic needs if they legitimately need them .....

This kind of whining about having to share the burden of providing safe and secure government for all citizens seems mighty self centered and narcissistic ....

What makes YOU think you can have a free ride through this life ? .... Did you get a public school education ? ... drive on them nice shiny roads ? ... read at the library anytime in your life ? ... Anyone in your family who has needed Food Stamps and received them ? ....

Well ..... what makes YOU think you dont have to contribute to those necessities anymore ?

This is selfishness ... pure and simple ....

[Lydia Leftcoast]

61. And that military you're so proud of?

It is bleeding us dry--before the invasion of Iraq, 85% of the income from federal income taxes went for either military spending or interest on the national debt, almost all of which is due to military spending. Now the Busheviks are fighting an illegal, aggressive war on money that the country doesn't have--and they're trying to cut elsewhere so their spending habits don't look so bad.

If you make %40,000, your income taxes pay for less than one second of the Iraq War.

And another thing--if you think that you could qualify for Medicaid so easily, obviously you've never tried to qualify for Medicaid.

Oh, and another thing--Businesses pay taxes only on their profits, i.e. what is left over after they've paid all their expenses. A business that is failing for other reasons may have trouble paying its previous year's taxes, but no business is going to fail solely because of taxes.

No, you're just another "me-me-me" Libertarian.

[Trajan]

75. THAT Military is not what I am proud of ....

I dont recall implying that I was 'proud' of any specific military stance whatsoever ...

Nevertheless: 'A' military is a necessity for a nation ..... Historically; Those who have forgone at least a suitable defensive force are invariably overrun by those that profess militancy.

At NO TIME would I in any way profess that the current regime is worthy of praise or of emulation. It is unfair for you to cast my statements as a support or a 'pride' of our current debacle ....

The generic term 'defense' doesnt imply a need to have a rash, unreasonable, strident, invasive, imperialist cabal leading the legitimate armed forces into an avoidable adventure ....

Again: It is unfair to claim I supported THIS regime in any way .... Nevertheless: a reasonable formed military, used to defend a nation's border is required ....

Perhaps the problem with Medicaid is that it IS hard to 'qualify' ... that doesn't make it wrong to provide it, or unworthy to support with tax revenues ....

I have NO IDEA where you would make the claim that I am 'libertarian' .... While I respect the Libertarian view regarding victimless crimes, like drugs and such, I do NOT advocate a libertarian philosophy for government ... not at all ....

Now I am thinking you mistakenly replied to my post .... because it is clear I advocate that government HAS A ROLE in our lives ... limited, but enough to lift the common man up ....

[Lydia Leftcoast]

190. Sorry, Trajan--I was replying to the OP

and expanding on what you had said.

[Trajan]

200. Copy that ... I kinda figured ....

But I answered anyways .... chuckles ....

Thanks, Lydia ...

[WLKjr]

106. That business didn't fail that I was referring too

They spent more time preparing taxes instead of making money, it was lost productivity time that caused the budget shortfall.

[WLKjr]

74. I am not advocating eliminating taxes

I am for changing how they are collected because there needs to be more control over the budget so that pet projects can't be pushed through without having the will of the people to pay for it. What's selfish about that?

The Fair Tax doesn't take away from the roads/schools/libraries.

Nice shiny roads, I don't see to many of those in Dayton except for the reconstruction of I-70 and I-75 (which BTW is a mess, and will be for a long while).


If we are going to get into a war of words here, what makes YOU think I should have to do what YOU want? isn't that selfish too?

[Trajan]

81. Because you are a part of a larger experiment ....

One began by Locke, Paine, Hobbes and the like ...

What makes you think you can enjoy the benefits of that formal structure and then opt out when you dont like the cost ? .... We are all in this together ....

It isnt selfish to ask that all at the table be able to eat ..... that is the opposite of selfishness ...

[OKthatsIT]

127. you think WE wanted Congress to rip US off?

These damn banks contributed to the politicians who voted for this frickin war. And the War on Terror...what a joke.

And these idiot politicians still harp on 'the war on terror' as if we all are so dumbed down and frightened we can't SEE what's really going on.

These idiots are taking US all to the cleaners.

[OKthatsIT]

107. That's actually a very good point...

We send our money off to Washington and they make wars, spending Trillions or stealing Trillions...and we act like there's no tomorrow.

Congress is LOST in 'stacked' Bills, nobody even reads. The 2 branches of govt manipulate each other with budgets which contain pork on pork on pork on pork, twisting each others arms behind their backs and cry out to the people, "WE HAD TO PASS THAT BUDGET!" because they were choosing between food stamps for children OR Billion$ for bomb$...which bombed children in another country.

Defense and Food in the same f'king Bill. They're all insane if they don't take advantage of their majority standing in Congress...and straighten this mess out FOR GOOD!

And what happened to CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM?
And what happened to DIEBOLD?

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Richard Steele]

77. LIES in the OP- gee, what a shock. NOT. nm

[WLKjr]

108. You really get that name honestly don't you

I am hunting down my return right now to double check. I never said it was an exact number thought DickSteele. Quite being such an asshole.

[angstlessk]

117. here is an English lesson...quite means 'entirely'..quit means 'stop'

on edit...quite is not quiet...oops!

[WLKjr]

126. lol, see we are all making mistakes this evening

I am tired, I am going to bed. Sorry if I pissed you off angstlessk, thanks for the lively discussion though. It was invigorating and helped me through this couple hour wait I had while working on a pc remotely doing data recovery! good night.

[Richard Steele]

198. It's on my birth certificate, so I'm gonna hafta answer "yes".

Yes I do.

[Trajan]

83. Good point ....

I paid less than 7200 on more than 60,000 ....

About 12% .... That isnt onerous in any way ....

Thanks for the math lesson ....

[Ellen Forradalom]

76. "I am an individualist"

is the biggest fallacy in our society. Flatter yourself that you got where you are on your own. In fact you operate within the confines of a complex infrastructure. You are far more dependent on the banking, transportation, investment, education, and law enforcement infrastructure than the rich. So demand accountability. I agree that a simplified, fair, PROGRESSIVE tax structure is best, and that we should accept no less than a government that delivers value for money.

Your taxes buy a lot. Do you enjoy being able to drive on paved roads, breathe passably clean air, own a home, get treatment in an ER, walk down the street with a reasonable chance of not being beaten? Tax money buys all this and more. These things aren't possible in many parts of the world.

It isn't all yours yours yours. Remember that if your bride (congratulations btw) stays home to raise the kids. She's not taking money from you, she's making your success possible. Similarly with taxes.

[OKthatsIT]

112. Fair Tax doesn't mean the end of services.

I am not advocating Fair Tax, either. But Congress has handed power over to huge federal agencies and 'new wave economics'. Economics which needs more violence, more crime and prisons to justify their employment...their reason for being.

I believe the War on Terror is a Fraud.

I believe our unalienable rights have been stripped...and we have very little representation in Washington. I also believe most politicians are 'owned' by the Banking cartel...a cartel which makes SO MUCH MONEY from Arms Deals, Drug Trafficking(on those rendition flights) and huge national debt profiteers.

How can you have it both ways?

[angstlessk]

116. what the hell does a 'fair tax' have to do with WHAT capital hill spends it money on???

ya think you can purchace lemonaide and pay for health care instead of orange juice for defense?? WTF???

[WLKjr]

130. you have more control over your congress critter

If they start to act fiscally stupid, all anyone has to do is stop buying luxuries and then the tax revenue stops. You may be surprised how quickly they change their mind about spending tax money on frivolous things.

[OKthatsIT]

133. oh boy...you really need to do a little research on this

You don't understand where taxes come from, or how much is actually income tax revenue.

Right now all of our income taxes goes to pay the debt...not services. It's a no win situation. The banks are a cartel. As we sink into further, unredemable debt..the banks are buying up all our resources and property. Middle class be damned.

[trotsky]

187. It most certainly would kill government as we know it.

34% is the estimate pegged for a national sales tax to completely replace the revenue from all current tax sources. This assumes people would continue to consume at their current rate and amount.

But how many people would do like the OP and severely curtail their purchases, especially upon seeing EVERYTHING they buy suddenly increase in price by 1/3, sending this country into a depression? How many black markets do you think would appear so people could buy goods without paying such an exorbitant sales tax? And how would the IRS audit such a situation? Are you going to have to keep a receipt for every trip to the grocery store? Will there be a million new bureaucrats to study your exact spending to ensure you're not cheating the system?

"Fair" tax is a fucking joke, it's the crap that Steve Forbes masturbates to when he can't sleep.

[WLKjr]

119. What is so wrong with wanting to provide for yourself

Why does everyone here seem to look down on someone with such content for making comments that they want to be responsible for themselves?

Not to stir up any trouble, but Lenin spoke of a progressive tax structure too. The Fair tax doesn't eliminate anything, it mearly changes the means at which taxes are collected. Everyone isn't going to stop buying things. Some may not buy as much and end up saving more, making the banks healthier and able to make more loans. It's just not forcing anyone to unwilling pay taxes without being aware that they are paying them. I like it becuase everyone would pay the same rate, that's fair to me.

and my future wife is the source of much of my success.......she gives me the kick in the ass that I need from time to time ;)!

[Ellen Forradalom]

146. Our ability to do so

is supported by the public infrastructure paid for by taxes.

I will agree that our tax code needs simplification. I also insist that corporate welfare needs to come to an end now.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

201. LENIN spoke of a progressive tax????

Oh, I know what kind of media you've been patronizing.

:rofl:

You need to listen to some nice classical music when you're driving, not that right-wing talk. It rots your mind. My own brother is proof of that.

[Juche]

101. How could you qualify for medicare

That is for the elderly, and you sound like you make too much to qualify for medicaid.

The fair tax is actually a tax cut on the rich and a tax hike on the middle class.

http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/unspinning_the_fairtax.html



Realistically if those businesses didn't pay taxes our economy would be shit. Taxes pay for retirement pensions/healthcare, the military, roads and education to name a few. If you cut taxes, you just increase private spending and then you end up in the same boat. If you elimiate social security and medicare people just have to start saving privately for these same things (and paying more for them I should add, taxes are progressive), so its not like if you cut taxes you get the same benefits.

[WLKjr]

110. It doesnt eliminate anything

It gives a person a choice of how to spend thier money they earned. Not money the government earned. The Fair Tax doesn't eliminate anything except for the IRS and the Fedral Income Tax. There's a lower tax rate already for Divedend Taxes, and it's way lower than the taxes you pay on your paycheck. The Fair Tax level's the field to the point where you pay taxes only when you choose to pay taxes, and everyone, EVERYONE, pays the exact same rate based on what they purchase. what's so wrong with that?

[angstlessk]

115. oh, like only when ou chose to eat..only when you chose to pay your rent???

only when you chose to pay your water, electric, and phone bill? gee lets all get on board..since those are such permutable commodities?

[WLKjr]

122. If you would read the damn bill

You would see that it's only FEDERAL INCOME TAXES and the IRS that are effected. Your water bill has nothing to do with it, your local government deals with that. Same goes for the electric company. But, your phone bill has FCC taxes on it. Funny you get taxed on rent, I rented an apartment for a full year and never paid taxes or even saw taxes listed on the monthly statement. I did pay local and federal taxes on my paystub though.

[OKthatsIT]

123. No..you don't really understand the Federal Reserve

We, The People, OUR FEDERAL GOVT can print its own money. We don't need to spend trillions on a debt to banks who only prints on paper.

It's insane economics. The Fair Tax options allows US to get out from under these criminal loan sharks. These very criminals who will go so far as to start a war to gain profit from it. They will rig the mortgages and credit lines to collapse and grab all the resources as we fall into an abys.

While the dumbed down Americans watch corporate media tells them what is reality? Lies.

This is at the bottom fo all our woes.

[angstlessk]

131. how does the 'fair tax' change any of that??? the government still taxes us..and it still collects

taxes and it still spends taxes..income vs sales does not change the way the government spends money nor does it change the Federal Reserve...if it DID..I would be all for the 'fair tax'!!!

[OKthatsIT]

136. Actually...the Govt doesn't collect a dime.

The IRS is a private collection corporation. The Federal Reserve is a Private Corporate Banking Cartel.

[angstlessk]

160. OK..I know the Federal Reserve is private..the IRS is NOT..it is a government

entity...it has of late (see boosh) privatized the collection of past due debts..but it is still a purely government entity.

[WLKjr]

162. FairTax plan mentions this

The IRS I believe is abolished and disbanded as part of the passage I believe, i would have to go back and reference this. I am relaly tired, gotta get some sleep.

[WLKjr]

142. wrong, your employer is the tax collector

They have to "hold" those taxes for you (because we are too dumb to do so) and report them to the government. That puts an extra burden on a business who's goal should be to make a profit and grow, give me and you a pay raise and not worry about the tax implications of making a business decision.

I know you are going to freak out on this one but if you go and read the Fair Tax book, it has references to some Harvard economic studies that show that consumption (retail sales) has not went down at all, but has continued to grow ever since WWII. That was the info that made me read more about it. I was skeptical at first too but decided to educate myself about what it was all about.

[Juche]

140. It is a regressive tax

I can understand the argument for the flat tax in that a person can choose not to consume. But a person can choose not to be employed as well or to be employed in a certain income bracket, or choose not to pay sales tax by buying online or choose to buy a smaller property with smaller property taxes. Personal choice still exists in our system as it is.

You sound like you are just bristling at the idea of being controlled (forced to pay taxes, forced to buy healthcare, etc). Understandable, and you sound like more of a libertarian. But to me since we all enjoy government services, the idea that paying for them should be totally voluntary doens't make sense unless using them becomes voluntary. We all benefit from the 1 trillion spent a year on k-12 and college education with public funds. Our $500 billion/yr military and $200 billion criminal justice system help people. The roads, oversight agencies and alot of science is funded publically. We benefit from these services daily whether we know it or not.

Personally I don't like the flat tax because it isn't progressive. In the last 30 years income for the well off has increased by 300% or more (the top 0.1 are making I think 700% more than around 1980 after inflation). For working class families it is around a 16% wage hike. At the same time taxes on the middle class (sales, payroll, property) have gone up while taxes on the well off (income, capital gains, dividend, corporate) have gone down.

A flat tax would be another nail in the coffin of the middle class that has been happening for the last few decades. I am new to the idea and I have heard it can improve our economy in teh global marketplace, so if that is true I may be open to it (I think Gravel supported the flat tax). But so far all I've really seen is anotehr tax cut for the well off.

[WLKjr]

145. response

The Fair Tax is not the same as the Flat Tax. Many people draw that conclusion but it's not the same thing. I do think that you can draw a parallel between wages not going up but taxes going up. To me that would obviously make it seem like you weren't making enough to keep up with inflation.

[stillcool]

111. If you have any spare time..

there is a website that has oodles of information, historical and current, about just about everything that is affected by our government's policies: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com
sometimes seeing where we've been provides clarity as to where we are..which is up against it.

[OKthatsIT]

118. Gladio and NATO terrorists

The Arms Deals and drug trafficking on those rendition flights, too.

Good link!

[stillcool]

132. if you use their search...

it's amazing the stuff you come up with.

[mike_c]

120. you and I have very little in common, my friend....

You are far more conservative than I am.

[WLKjr]

124. Maybe I am, or maybe it's just a phase

This whole post pissed a few people off, but it's not like they had anything constructive to say other than to jump my case instead of having a constructive discussion.

[mike_c]

135. it's an interesting OP....

I recognized myself in some of your comments, nearly thirty years ago. I once admired America's military, for example, but no more, and now I would like to see DoD funding cut by two-thirds or more. When I was your age I also objected vehemently to paying taxes. Now, at nearly twice your age, I'm proud to pay taxes to improve the lives of others and would happily pay more if most of the money went to social programs rather than to the Pentagon and the military industrial complex. I regard business as more often a vehicle for acting out personal greed than as a force for positive change. I have absolutely zero respect for corporations and would strip them of both personhood and any real opportunity to profit from the misery of others if I could. I regard John McCain as an abomination in American public life, although he's certainly not the worst.

We pretty much agree about Sen. Clinton, I suspect.

As I've gotten older I've become MUCH more liberal. I expect to become even more so in the last half of my life.

[drmeow]

144. Well, you did invite flames

Furthermore your OP was anything BUT a constructive discussion and you admitted so by inviting flames and saying you were in a feisty mood. You reap what you sow.

[WLKjr]

155. I know, I asked for it and got it.

I just thought I would have gotten better responses other than the normal "your a neo-con, blah blah" I never un-registered as a democrat, still vote democrat, just lately have been unsatisified with the job some of them have been doing. I have to say though that Gov. Strickland here in Ohio has been doing a pretty good job getting us out of the Taft/Blackwell mess that was left.

[drmeow]

171. You can't expect better responses

when you lower the bar like that. Had your post not been a rant but more of an open invitation to discuss these issues, you might have still gotten some flames but you also might have gotten more thoughtful responses. Also, as much as responders were not willing to "listen" and to be respectful, it didn't look to me from your posts that you were open to listening either. You were looking for a fight - and you got one. If you philosophically punch someone in the nose, you don't have any moral high ground to complain that they punched you back instead of engaging in a philosophical discussion.

And, btw - you views are more on the libertarian side than the progressive/liberal/democratic side and this is, after all, a progressive/liberal/democratic site.

[drmeow]

143. The reason you pay "so" much in taxes

is because the conservative agenda is and has been for many many years to pass the tax burden on to middle class America to give tax breaks to corporations and the very rich. The middle class paid a lower percentage of their income in taxes under Clinton than under Reagan or either Bush.

[WLKjr]

157. All the more reason to make everyone pay the same rate. n/t

[drmeow]

170. No, the flat tax screws the poor

and then the middle class. A progressive tax (which should include a tax on capital gains) is far more fair and, quite frankly, the rich and big business benefit more from our government than any of the poor or middle class so, as far as I'm concern, the rich should pay more (disclosure - my SO and I make enough money to be considered upper class in my mind and we do earn capital gains ... and I still feel this way). With a fair progressive tax, you will still be paying way less than you do now.

We also would be paying far, far less in taxes if it wasn't for the overblown military industrial complex and huge tax breaks to extremely wealthy corporations.

[Jamastiene]

166. I'd say you sound like you belong to either the Republican Party

or the Libertarians. Not sure which. You'd have to go take the political test online that lets you know for sure, if you really don't know.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

Have at it. Then you'll know for sure. Problem solved. Bill's in the mail. :D

Here's mine:
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -8.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.77
http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-8.62&soc=-6.77

and here is one for some perspective:


It's a great tool to find out where you really stand.

[Yavin4]

168. You Work in IT???

Call us when your high paying job gets outsourced to India or an H1B visa takes it from you for pennies on the dollar.

Then, we will see you crying for massive govt intervention and programs to re-train you.

Part of growing as a human being is seeing the full picture of the state of humanity in this country, and you have an extremely limited view of the world.

[LeftishBrit]

172. You are basically a Thatcherite.

Economically conservative; anti-tax; favouring businesses over public services; hawkish but not as hawkish as Bush; socially conservative but not as bad as the fundies.

Even a Thatcherite is better than a Bushie, but not that much better.

[Kitty Herder]

173. Dude, you couldn't get Medicaid. The truly needy can't get medicaid.

The only people who can get it are the very, very poorest. In my state, it's so bad, that not only do you have to be incredibly poor, you have be either disabled or pregnant.

Wake up! There is no safety net to catch you when you fall.

I agree, however, that Hillary's approach is misguided. Hasn't turned out very well in Massachussetts. We need single-payer NOW!

[Snarkturian Clone]

176. Read my 1000th post.

link in my sig line. I agree with you on some points. DUers have gone a little crazy nowadays so they jump all over anyone who isn't violently leftist. Many DUers cry about fascism but if things come along that are leftist fascism, they cheer for it.

[Kitty Herder]

178. Leftist fascism is an oxymoron. You can have violent, dictatorial leftist regimes, but

by definition, they are not fascist.

Fascism is a right-wing ideology.

[Snarkturian Clone]

179. Smoking bans. Mandatory recycling.

Examples of leftist fascism.

[Kitty Herder]

181. Please educate yourself on the actual definition of fascism.

Leftists can be dictatorial, violent, repressive, all of the above. But that does not make them fascist. Any more than it makes them neo-cons. Fascism is a specific political ideology, first defined by Benito Mussolini. It's quite similar to neo-conservatism in many ways.

I know the word fascist gets thrown around as an insult for anything people disagree with, but that doesn't mean it's use in those situations is correct. The meaning of the word has been mostly lost over the years because it is bandied about in contexts where it does not apply.

[Snarkturian Clone]

182. Fair enough.

I know the word fascist gets thrown around as an insult for anything people disagree with, but that doesn't mean it's use in those situations is correct. The meaning of the word has been mostly lost over the years because it is bandied about in contexts where it does not apply.

I can accept that answer. :hi:

[Strelnikov_]

180. Then vote Republican

Either a person is 'intelligent' enough to get it, or they aren't. 'Debate' in these instances has little effect in my experience. I have found that the only thing that has any effect on your type is the ball pean hammer of reality to the forehead. From what I can gather of your economic position, your hammer is on the way, and McCain will deliver it.

Good luck, Ayn.

[raccoon]

183. I didn't know males could be "feisty;" always heard that adjective applied

to women/girls, but I'm glad to hear it's an equal opportunity adjective. :silly:

[KharmaTrain]

185. Fair Taxes Aren't Fair...How About A Consuption Tax??

There's no way in hell I'd ever vote for a repugnican...no way no how. Don't look at the candidate (whose bad enough), but look at the entire party. So you'd be happy for endless wars and a dysfunctional government that will lead to more bridges falling, healthcare going to hell, education become less than third world...all so Gramps can continue to fund his war for profit and pass along tax breaks to the rich.

I'm more than twice your age...have owned my own business for about as long as you've been alive. I was lucky that my business was able to grow during the Clinton days of the 90's...there's no way I could think of starting, yet surviving today. And it isn't taxes that's the problem...it's the anti-competitive nature of repugnicans...favoring their big money donors and telling the little business guy to go screw himself. Look at all the businesses in trouble today...despite boooshie's tax breaks to the rich...then look at this regime's wreckless spending and deregulation and that's where the small businesses end up behind the 8-ball today. His defecits have led to the credit crunch that all but will prohibit small businesses from expanding...it sure wasn't taxes.

I gotta love the Libertarian view that we pay too much in taxes, yet there's no specifics on what is necessary and what isn't. Do we all end up having to fend for ourselves? Do the rich pay for their own police and should the poor be withheld services for healthcare or education cause they're deadbeats?

There's been plenty said about how awful the flat tax is...how it favors the rich...and it does. At one time some were discussing a consumption tax...taxing on what you spend not on what you make and to set up a graduated tax scale where food and medicine aren't taxed, basic consumer goods (clothing, housing) would be at a lower rate...that the highest rates would be on luxuary items...from Wide Screen TVs to yachts.

Honestly, I'm sick with the libertarian double standard...talking as if they have all the answers, yet never any specifics on how they'll replace a federal government...who will collect the garbage, patrol the streets, educate our children or care for the health of our people. If you don't think these things matter to the welfare of all...admit what you really are...selfish!

[Burma Jones]

189. Hmmmm.......let's see

responses:

1. Are you also against Social Security? How about unemployment insurance? Which risks are you willing to assume? Will you gladly, yea even happily die if you find yourself unable to afford, say, Cancer treatment if you did not purchase health insurance. I have found that conservatives are all for assuming risk until they get bitten in the ass - then it's "where's MY bailout?"

2. Were these state, local, federal taxes? Was this a result of the business not planning ahead to pay their taxes? Plenty of businesses thrive and pay their taxes, they just have to know what they're doing. We have a low tax burden in this country, well, compared to other western industrialized nations. Granted, we pay exorbitant health insurance costs that other western nations fold into their taxes, but our tax burden is lower than most.

3. If politicians do not act as though they have the "master plan" then they're accused of not having any ideas.

4. Are you willing to be the last person to die for a lie?

5. If I were to only think of my own situation, I would love love love the fair tax. I do enjoy rather significant income from assets I did not earn. If the power to tax is the power to destroy, and it is, are you willing to see productivity taxed more than wealth, because that's what the "fair tax" does.

6. I assume you're talking about drilling in Alaska and offshore California. The additional crude oil that would be sucked out of these reserves would not last long, would end up on the global market because American Oil Companies are going to get the best price for that oil and that oil isn't all that cheap and easy to get. Also, no new refineries have been built since the 1970s. There is plenty of oil you know, we've merely extracted most of the easily obtained and transported crude.

7. You think small businesses are burdened by taxes, try taking away their docile and poorly paid labor force.

8. You were only told that once? Hypocrisy is as old as hunting and gathering.

9. Equal treatment for everybody is pretty simple.

9.5 What? Are you afraid of a lawsuit from Letterman - I think you could have written "10"? Reproductive choice is up to Doctors and Patients.


I will vote for whomever the Democrats nominate. My preferred Democrat, Richardson, is out of the race. I would welcome a veto-proof Democratic majority in both houses of Congress - that would make a McCain Presidency a much easier pill to swallow.

[spanone]

192. if you could any way possibly vote for mccain you are in the wrong place imo

[ProfessorGAC]

193. Turning Libertarian Because Of Your Vast Experience?

While i can attempt to empathize, i cannot accept the intellectual integrity of any position that includes fan-dom of the Fair Tax. This is simply the stupidest tax proposal of all time, and the entire thing is based upon a lie that the plan is revenue neutral. It's not, and any 10th grader could do the math to prove it's not.

So, i question your depth of thought in the rest of the matters as well.
The Professor

[mainegreen]

194. Right on some things, wrong on others, with a serious lack of empathy: AKA Libertarian.

Don't worry, you can recover from Libertarian disease.

[LanternWaste]

195. Just curious...

Just curious...

How does one "not agree" with someone being gay? In this context, it seems to me to be precisely the same thing as "not agreeing" with someone being left-handed. Is there a precise and relevant difference?


(Additionally-- what is one man's FAIR TAX (as you so loudly put it), is another man's regressive tax system. Who precisely is to say what's fair or not?

[BlueFireAnt]

196. McCain, Hillary, Obama. Either way life will be no better.

Truth is, THEY ARE ALL POLITICIANS. They pander to what their base wants to hear and try to steal a few from the other side. They are all about what is best for them. If they weren't, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now. We've had Democrats and Republicans in the White House and holding majorities ni the legislative branch and nothing has really changed. Every time you vote it is for the lesser of two evils. We have just been programmed to believe it makes a difference. Economies go up and down, regardless of who's in charge. Tell me how anyone's life has really changed because of who's in charge. I don't mean the way we feel about things, I mean how has it REALLY changed. I consider myself liberal, but I'm also a realist. The government SHOULD take care of those who can't take care of themselves, but only a fool would DEPEND on it. It won't happen. That's why, as individuals, we should take care of one another. Period.


Actually, I may start this as a separate thread.

[MadHound]

197. Response

1. I agree with you about Hillary's plan, it sucks. However rather than continuing with what we have, which is corporately controlled health care, with the bean counters making medical decisions rather than patients and doctors, I would like to see a true universal health care, much like the Canadians have. We're the only industrialized country that doesn't have true UHC, don't you think it's about time we caught up?

2. It sounds to me like your buddy's business was suffering due to some serious mismanagement or bad bookkeeping. I would suggest that you go talk to your friend or your friend's accountant and get a better idea of what's going on before you make assumptions based on limited knowledge.

As far as taxes in general go, I think that they are a necessary thing for any country to have. If you want to keep the public infrastructure up, if you want to keep public services, public administration, a common defense, etc. etc., taxes are needed to make these all possible. I have my own quibbles with taxes, namely that corporations and the wealthy in this country aren't paying their fair share and haven't been for a long while. Thus the tax burden falls increasingly on the middle class and the poor. However a flat tax (which is what the so called fair tax is) will not alleviate these problems, it will only exacerbate them. In fact the flat tax is a regressive tax and it effect those who are poor and middle class much more negatively than it would effect the wealthy. Who can afford a 10% flat tax more, somebody who is making twenty thousand a year, who has to make every dollar count, or somebody who is making 200,000 a year?

Furthermore, a flat tax probably won't save you money overall, in fact it will probably cost you more. To make up the current federal budget, many economists have stated that at a bare minimum a flat tax of thirty percent will have to be imposed. Furthermore you'll still have to continue to pay for your SS, state, local and property taxes. At best, it's a wash, more likely you'll be paying more with a flat tax than otherwise. A better solution is to readjust the tax brackets and most important, close the tax loopholes that allow the rich and well off to hide their money from the IRS or get it positioned so that it is untaxable.

3. I'm sick of the do nothing Congress also, judging from poll numbers most people are. I'm also sick of both the Republican and Democratic party being nothing more than the governmental wing of Corporate America. In the rush to continually service their corporate masters, members of Congress have virtually forgotten about the regular citizen. I think that if we take the corporate money out of elections via publicly funded elections we would get better, more responsive government.

4. Yes, in some ways we have the best military in the world, but quite frankly it has been broken in this war and is in dire need of repair and modification. I have friends and family in the ranks and they feel the same way. However one thing that we desperately need to do is to cut spending on the military. Right now we're spending more on our military than the next largest twenty eight military forces combined. And much of this is in waste. We don't need systems like the Osprey, which is a proven danger to both pilot and those on the ground. We don't need tank systems that need their own special refueling vehicle because their gas mileage is measured in gallons per mile rather than miles per gallon. Furthermore, having a leaner military corp. will act as a deterrant to the US getting involved in wars of oil and empire. Plus, that money that you save can be better used in preventing attacks like 911 than in retribution. One of the key reasons bin Laden has stated for going after the US is because the US used Afghanistan in our proxy war against the USSR(remember those freedom fighters that Reagan talked about?). If we had spent a few million dollars in aid for rebuilding Afghanistan back then, it is highly unlikely that we would have lost all those lives, along with a multi-billion dollar piece of infrastructure. Stepping down our military and focusing on diplomacy and improving our image would go a much longer way to helping our foreign relations program than simply going to war with whoever we feel like.

As far as Iraq goes, yes, it's a mess. But you know what, it's going to continue to be a mess for as long as we're there. And no matter when we pull out, the situation is going to disintegrate into chaos and bloodshed because any government, no matter how democratic, that is set up in Iraq under the auspices of the US government is going to be considered illegit and illegal by the Iraqi people, and in a chaotic civil war, it will be torn down and replaced as soon as we leave, whenever we leave. Furthermore, we should give up nation-building as an option, because the US sucks at it, and it always turns into an imperial conquest than winds up killing many people and draining our resources.

And why should we go into Iran and Saudi Arabia? What have those countries done to us? What threat are they? If you're thinking that the 911 terrorists came predominantly from SA, yes, they did. But do we hold an entire country to blame for the actions of a few? No, we don't, at least not in the America I know. And as far as Iran goes, yes, they are the latest boogeyman used to stir up US hatred and jingoism, but frankly Iran is no threat to the US, and if we let Iran evolve on its own, it will turn into a secular, democratic state, much like what was happening before we shook the saber at it and helped a radical into power there.

6. Going green has got to be a priority, and reworking our energy system to eliminate fossil fuels is where we have to start. We can't continue to burn fuel that fucks up our atmosphere and that is increasingly scarce. And it makes no long term sense to depend on fossil fuels when renewables such as solar, geothermal and especially wind can fulfill all of our energy needs.

7. We do need to get rid of NAFTA, along with a host of other free trade agreements. It is killing our economy by not having a manufacturing sector anymore. As far a fence goes, I find that laughable on the face of it. First of all, a fence isn't going to stop a damn thing or person. There's an ocean on both sides that get around a fence, there's always ways to go under a fence, and given the lack of border patrol, there's enough time to get over the fence. All a fence will do is make life more difficult for migrating wildlife, for businesses on the border, and for legal border residents. Rather, enforce the current laws, especially the laws that punish corporations for hiring illegal immigrants(no jobs, no incentive to come here), make an easy, legal way for the twelve million illegal immigrants to become US citizens(because after all, how practicable is it to try and round all those people up and ship them back), and create a guest worker problem that will be of use to both our fellow humans south of the border and to US businesses who need their labor.

Finally, I would mention a couple of other things. As far as you having seen the real world, when you reach my age, late forties, you're going to look back on your statement and laugh at your own naivete. No, you're not a kid, but I seriously doubt that you've been around the block even once. You're life sounds rather cushy, what with a house and all, especially since I'm assuming that you're fresh out of college. Come back to that point about having seen a fair amount of the real world after you get a few scars and bruises from the real world.

Secondly, you political leanings sound more libertarian than liberal to me, and again, I think that will change that is if you have any sort of compassion for your fellow human being. Or if you have any economic intelligence. Libertarian social policy is OK, and I tend to agree with a lot of it, but its economic policy sucks. It is nothing more than a license for corporations to run roughshod over the citizenry. I'm sorry, but we need government to not only protect us from other countries, but also to protect us from corporations. If you don't believe me, go back and study the corporate atrocities of the Gilded Age, child labor laws, no safety laws, no banking regulations, etc. etc. That's the libertarian vision, and I'm sorry, but I can't buy into that, neither should you.

[T Monk]

199. maybe a repug maybe a dlc'er still about the same