Autism myth lives on

[Pale Blue Dot]

As the brother of an autistic person and a brain scientist, I have been hoping that the increased focus on autism in the news would lead to a greater public understanding of this disorder. Instead, I am angry that this coverage is spreading dangerous myths.

My sister, Karen, is autistic. In the 1970s, my parents wondered why she behaved so differently. At the time, a prevalent idea was that an emotionally distant mother could somehow prevent a child from understanding emotions or relating normally to others. Our parents had a simpler idea, that they might have hurt Karen's head during a bath.

Both these ideas are wrong. Autism is a neurological disorder, and its signs appear by the age of 1 or even earlier. It is highly inheritable. In identical twins where one is autistic, the chance that both are autistic is greater than 50-50. Even non-identical twins and siblings are at increased risk. In short, I dodged a genetic bullet. Now I worry about my daughter.

A link that isn't there

Recently, celebrities such as Jenny McCarthy and other activists have taken to the airwaves to repeat the myth that autism is linked to vaccination. Although peer-reviewed scientific evidence overwhelmingly opposes their views, they have attracted attention. In a recent discussion on Larry King Live, three pediatricians invited to make the case for science were no match for McCarthy's star power. Situations like this could mistakenly persuade parents to leave their children unvaccinated and vulnerable to contagious diseases.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2008/04/autism-myth-liv.html

[moggie]

1. What we need

More scientists appearing nude in Playboy. That's evidently the way to gain credibility.

[glowing]

2. that is not exactly what she has said.. she has said, like many others,

there needs to be more info involved in innoculating children with multiple amounts of vaccinations before they really have had a chance to establish their own immunologies..

I'm not even going to go on and on with this other than to say.. when you see it with your own eyes, Fuck the damn scientists and Doctors.. and Big Pharma, FDA, CDC, and the congress who see it as a business.

[kestrel91316]

3. Practicing medicine IS a business for doctors.

You would rather have physicians forced to bankrupt themselves by practicing medicine for free?

Disclaimer: I am an evil veterinarian. I own a veterinary hospital and have the unmitigated gall to charge for MY services. That way I get to report my very high expenses to the IRS to offset my gross income, and what LITTLE is left they take over half of - god forbid I ever live in less than near-poverty......

But you go ahead and keep hating medical professionals as a class.

[glowing]

14. Tad bit defensive I'd say..

I didn't say I didn't respect certain Doctors.. but the list I mentioned is a circus that makes money.

Oh btw.. I suppose just because someone doesn't have an environmental science degree, means they can't understand pollution...

[uppityperson]

26. "Fuck the damn scientists and Doctors." and you complain posters are defensive?

What. ever.

[kestrel91316]

29. Your post promotes hatred against medical professionals as a class.

For that, you'll get me more than defensive. You'll get me on the offensive.

[glowing]

31. Some people are not out to promote health.. some are there to promote

profit.. and it trickles down into the rest of the good people... Personally, I love my own doc, who's now moving.. She uses traditional and alt. interwoven.. she cares more about the wholeness, than what the med. est. she works is is trying to push her to sell... She didn't work her own ind. clinic/ office. It was a sub. of the hospital. Most of the time she gave me free stuff and advice.. I'm so sad to lose her.


On edit: I say fuck the govt too, but also recognize there are a lot of good people trying to do a good job.. from the "little" cafeteria worker.. to people like Kucinich and Feingold.. anyway.. did not mean to offend you..

[TZ]

97. Youve managed to offend every health scientist on this board

I've been in this industry for 10+ years and money is almost NEVER a motivation for scientists.
Hell there's a widely repeated saying in college if you want to be rich DON'T major in biology!

[davekriss]

57. You apparently have a very bad tax accountant

The maximum FIT rate is 35% and that doesn't kick in until after you've made $357,700. On that first $357,700 (of adjusted gross income minus exemptions and deductions), you pay $96,770 in federal income tax, or an effective tax rate of 27%. That's hardly "half".

If your income is at or above these numbers, you don't win any sympathy from me for griping about federal taxes. Instead, you should count your blessings.

[earth mom]

72. Gotcha!

:rofl:

[demobabe]

78. You're forgetting Self Employment Tax

15.3% for Social Security, taken out, and that's on top of your Federal Tax Rate... and if you don't make much money to begin with and don't have a lot of expenses, this really hits hard. Especially if you compare it to the withholding amounts of 6.2% for Social Security and 1.45% for Medicare if you are an employee who receives a W2. So looking at it that way (even tho the SS money is supposed to be yours), our vet friend could easily be paying a larger percentage of their income than you are calculating.

[davekriss]

82. No I'm not forgetting

Because, when making arguments for tax justice, our upper-earning Republican friends remind us that FICA taxes aren't taxes and shouldn't figure in on any dialogue. Further, it tops out at $97.500 (iirc), so the self employment tax, which is the same as the FICA tax shared between me and my employer, is less than net 1/3 for someone at the $356,700 figure. Take that 12.3% and divide by 3, and we're adding 4.1% to a fat cat's earnings. So, our vetinarian friend, if he hit the 35% marginal rate, has a net effective tax of 31.1%. Still far off from the "half" dreamland!

On edit: Whereas I don't have any sympathy for someone griping about paying "half" his or her earnings in taxes when (1) the claim is untrue and (2) they're making 8-10 times the average wage, I think we all can gripe about paying any taxes when so much of it is misued to further the imperial agenda of a thin sliver of top plutocrats instead of providing basic services to everyone, like single-payer universal healthcare.

[earth mom]

71. You obviously haven't watched SICKO. It is ethically WRONG to profit from others misery.

It doesn't have to be this way in the U.S. Doctors can still live well which was shown that they do in Europe.

The very fact that the medical industry is "For Profit" is at the very root of what's fundamentally WRONG with this country. :puke:

[kath]

74. how can the IRS take over half of your income, when the top tax bracket is only 35%,

and that's on TAXABLE income (ie, AGI - deductions - exemptions) greater than $349,700? http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm


But I'm with you in being totally sick of all the bashing of medical professionals (and all the spouting of unscientific bullshit) that goes on here.

[lumberjack_jeff]

77. The IRS doesn't take half of *anyone's* income. n/t

[Warpy]

4. They don't establish their own immunology until they get to med school

and vaccines are not given until the child's immune system is developed well enough to provide an immunity to the disease from the vaccine.

Wallowing in ignorance is a poor strategy for survival. Please educate yourself on what those vaccines are protecting kids against. Those diseases weren't benign. Children died from them every year until vaccines became available.

[conflictgirl]

11. Just because a disease is bad does not mean the particular vaccine against it is safe!

I've told this story before, but maybe not here. When my oldest was a baby, the rotavirus vaccine was very new - I opted to wait on it since he wasn't in daycare and was at low risk for contracting the disease, and within just a few months the vaccine had been pulled due to deaths resulting from the vaccine. The chicken pox vaccine was also fairly new when it came time for that to be recommended a few months later, and the whole rotavirus vaccine experience had me pretty wary of new vaccines. My doctor tried selling me on the vaccine, saying that deaths from chicken pox were possible but especially emphasizing the biggest cost of chicken pox being the lost work time for parents. Then there was a sign on the inside of the exam room door detailing the office's policies regarding after-hours calls, and on their list of things that were NOT EMERGENCIES to merit an after-hours call was...chicken pox!

I opted not to get the chicken pox vaccination for any of my kids, and they did end up contracting the disease. It was a miserable couple of days but otherwise uncomplicated, and according to my research their immunity to that virus will now be stronger than if they had gotten the vaccine.

My second child then had very severe reactions to his series of DTaP shots, to the point that my pediatrician reported it to the National Vaccine Injury hotline. Despite my experiences, I am not rabidly anti-vaccination. All of my children are between 50-80% vaccinated depending on their ages and their individual health (given that my middle child had severe vaccine reactions, I will NEVER give him multiple vaccines at one time like the current policy recommends).

What I wish wouldn't get so lost in this debate is that there are a LOT of us out here who are not anti-vaccination but who are very worried by the dramatic increase in the number of vaccines recommended for young children, the number that are given at one time, and the sketchy approval process of the FDA in the past decade that has allowed some dangerous vaccines and drugs on to the market. I do still support the classic vaccines of my own childhood in the 70s - which includes those for some very serious diseases like polio and diphtheria - as I think they are mostly time-tested and whatever adverse health effects may be attributed to them outweigh the prevalence of those diseases running rampant again.

But when people like you accuse thoughtful parents like me of being ignorant, it's really insulting. I absolutely believe most of those diseases are serious and vaccination is a good idea - but there is no way in hell I'm going to buy into whatever the FDA and the vaccine manufacturers tell me about the vaccine du jour and convince me to give my kid 12 vaccinations in one day. I believe that as a concerned parent and citizen I should have the right to view these new vaccines with caution and even skepticism.

Just because the disease is bad does not logically follow that the vaccine against it is safe - any more than the Vioxx debacle proved that people's severe pain was worth any price, no matter how dangerous the treatment. We should have the right to demand proven-safe drugs and vaccines before being legally bound to put them into our bodies!

[demobabe]

79. You are so wise to exercise caution

My little boy got his 1 year-old shots, and he became very ill. It set him back easily a year on some developmental skills. Before the shot, he was babbling, starting to sound out syllables and words, and then after the shot, he shut up and really didn't say a word for a year after that.

I so badly wish I could go back in time and not given him so many shots so early, or done a lot more research on all of them and found alternatives.

[glowing]

16. He got his shots.. and then he became sick in front of my eyes. guess I'm

just so wrong.. never would have been on this side of the argument.. I have a science degree.. been tested in the science is right.. trust the journals.. I'm lucky, I'm only dealing with ADHD and allergies.

[Warpy]

55. The problem is confusing coincidence with cause

and it's a human thing to do so. However, extensive research has been done on the subject and no link has ever been found between vaccination and developmental disorders of any type, including ADHD.

[glowing]

60. Too me its neurological... His speech decreased and now he needs help.

he became sick, lethargic, and broke out in a rash. His developmental speech and learning pattern were def. changed.. and I think the vaccine triggered it.. Now, we have to send him to special school, we use ADHD techniques to slow him down from "busy hands".. our term, and watch his skin so he doesn't have a huge eczema outbreak. Its just frustrating to watch him play with his little friend and have such a hard time expressing himself and communicating with them.

[Fireweed247]

17. hepatitis

"vaccines are not given until the child's immune system is developed well enough to provide an immunity to the disease from the vaccine"

They give the hepatitis vaccine before an infant even leaves the hospital.

[glowing]

24. and guess what.. I've never had half the shots they "require" and

am not signing up for them. I don't take a flu shot and no one in our family does... We've gotten a round of colds or two.. but nothing so severe that we are out for weeks.. (Eating well and taking vitamins work wonderfully). When my Doc asked about Flu or Chicken pox.. I told him no thank you... You'd have thought I was committing a deadly sin over that one.. R u sure? Here's the benefits.. Suffice to say, we were there for a physical to enroll him into school..and he picked up a cold from the Docs.. seriously, looking into a diff. ped. office.

[Fireweed247]

34. I have been hassled by several pediatricians for asking questions

We are supposed to just do what we are told and don't ask questions. They even wanted me to give my son liquid fluoride before he was one!

And today the news comes out that the flu season is worse than ever, apparently the flu shots were worthless. They have even made people who never got the flu before, sick from the flu for the first time. I had someone on my 'meals on wheels' route die from it. These scare tactics are harmful to everyone.

[uppityperson]

9. Here is a picture for you about the evils of innoculating children before they have a chance

to establish immunities on their own.
Damn those scientist and Doctors.

[glowing]

19. Well, thank God, he's all shot up and ADHD, sick all the time, has

allergies, and has to go to school at 3 to learn how to talk.. yeah.. loved watching my 8 mo old deteriorate before my eyes.. I haven't had any other children.. and I haven't decided what I will do on the next one.. Maybe, I won't have any.

[uppityperson]

25. Vaccines are not a total preventive totally safe thing, but they do prevent things like this.

Yes, some people react wrongly to them, some should not have them, but in the majority of cases they prevent worse illnesses like this baby.

It is a difficult decision, what to do with next one, esp since your first one had a reaction.

I am glad that vaccines have mostly done away with things like smallpox though.

You do know that most doctors do not make scads of money, don't you? Unless they are extreme specialists, which family practice and pediatricians usually aren't.

Yes, damn those who are in it only to make money, but realize that that is a small percentage and not those most of us deal with day in and day out.

[glowing]

33. I would def research which one's I'd want them taking and when..

if its a girl.. I'd be more ok with it.. if its a boy, damn my husband and his native american gene's somedays.. My stepdaughter is fine.. its the son that's going to struggle.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

68. Your 8 year old got a vaccination and digressed to the point he needs assistance right then.

That's a remarkable story.

David

[IdaBriggs]

94. She said "8 MONTH old." nt

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

99. You're right my fault.

I apologize if it was an 8 y.o. it truly would have been a remarkable story. Unfortunately it's not uncommon for these problems to present at 8 months.


David

[TZ]

96. HELLO!

Stimulating young immune systems is HEALTHY! Why don't you read some articles about how kids WHO aren't exposed to pathogens and good old fashoned dirt when young turn out to be really unhealthy (ashtma, allergies) adults.
THe immune system NEEDS TO BE STIMULATED WHEN YOUNG SO THAT ANTIBODIES CAN BE MADE.
This is what breast feeding does.\
God save me from people who don't understand this basic biology!
And FU too from all my hardworking colleages how are all money grubbing thugs according to your philosophy. Fucking stereotypes.

[Fireweed247]

5. Who benefits?

Someone clearly has an interest in making sure that no one sees the connection between Autism and vaccinations.
Someone perhaps who would have to pay out million(billions) of dollars in damages??
I wonder who that could be...

[KamaAina]

6. In Karen's and my day, the incidence of autism was 1 in 10,000. It is now 1 in 166.

That is the official CDC figure. Genetics alone cannot explain this. There must be some environmental trigger or triggers that affect people with a genetic predispostion toward autism.

Of course, that doesn't mean that vaccines are necessarily the trigger, or the only trigger, or even that the mercury-based thimerosal preservative is the culprit; as mentioned above, a competing theory is that so many vaccines given in such a short time produce an autoimmune response that acts as the trigger.

Complicating matters considerably is that autism isn't really a "disease" as such, but rather a behaviorally defined syndrome with multiple etiologies (translation: many possible causes). Thus, while Karen and I might perform similarly on certain psychological tests, the underlying processes that made us who we are might be entirely different.

Much more basic research is needed before people (on both sides) start jumping to conclusions. Unfortunately, "Be patient and wait for the research" is not a good enough answer for a parent who sees his/her child "slipping away". Hence, the propensity to latch on to anything new that comes down the pike: a new treatment, a possible cause, whatever.

edit: header

[alarimer]

21. They have changed the standards for the autism spectrum

which accounts for most of the difference now.

[LeftishBrit]

23. Most of what has changed is rates of DIAGNOSIS of autism.

Many who were diagnosed 30 or 40 years ago were diagnosed as 'mentally retarded' or 'childhood schizophrenics' (the latter diagnosis has now almost disappeared) are now diagnosed as having severe autism. Many who in the past were diagnosed as 'maladjusted' or 'emotionally disturbed' or had no diagnosis but were just considered as 'odd' are now diagnosed with high-functioning autism or Asperger syndrome.

In addition, very premature, small or sick babies, who would have died in the past, now survive with an increased risk of autism.

As I said in another post, I would also not rule out *some* effect of prenatal infections or exposure to pollutants.

[KamaAina]

28. Would that really explain an increase of *two orders of magnitude*?

in a matter of a few decades?

Also, there is no conflict between an MR and an autism diagnosis; about half of people with autism have comorbid MR.

[LeftishBrit]

41. Yes, there is evidence that it does explain much of it

www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/322/7284/460

http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Health/2008/04/10/diagnosis_changes_may_affect_autism_rise/2633/

If most doctors are unaware of the existence of a disorder as a specific condition, then they will not diagnose it. To give a personal example: I was diagnosed with Crohn's disease at the age of 16, but had had it since the age of 5. Why was I not diagnosed till 16? Not because my parents didn't take me to the doctor (they did); or because the doctors weren't good (many of them were); or even because I have a relatively mild case (though I do). But because the prevailing wisdom of the time was that *children could not get Crohn's disease*; and therefore children weren't diagnosed with it! I was considered to have infections, or a neurotic mother, depending on which doctor I saw.

Nowadays, it is well-recognized that children *can* get Crohn's disease and therefore they get diagnosed with it. The actual incidence of childhood Crohns may or may not have increased (there is controversy about this); but the diagnoses have certainly increased - because now it is recognized as something one can have.

People in the early 19th century were often diagnosed as having *fevers* but not as having streptococcus, staphylococcus, etc.; because these had not been identified. These started being diagnosed when people had good microscopes and more medical knowledge. I think the MR/ autism connection is similar to, for instance, the fever/strep one. A diagnosis of 'fever' and strep are not mutually exclusive, and people with a strep infection may well have a fever, but whereas 150 years ago they would have *just* been diagnosed with fever, now they are also recognized as having strep. Similarly, most doctors 40 years ago would diagnose a child as having MR without considering that their particular form of MR was linked to autism. (Those with autism without MR were even less likely to get a diagnosis.)

[Ilsa]

62. I think that is part of it, but not all. Our schools have alot more

kids that are low functioning. I think something in the environment is affecting these infants and fetuses in utero.

YEs, the very premature have a higher risk. Alot of people don't realize that they are prone to numerous underdevelopment issues that occur when there is no substitute for that time in the womb.

My oldest is PDD-NOS. The worst part is the communication disorder. My youngest is not autistic, but his teachers have tried to make a case for him being autistic so the school could get additional funding.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

69. Thimerosal was removed from routine childhood vaccines in 2001.

So the rate of autism should be dropping to alarmingly low levels now.

David

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

7. Im sorry if Autism was more genetic than not

wouldn't you see a near 1:1 ratio in identical twins?

[LeftishBrit]

20. It should be noted...

that while the chance of the identical twin of an autistic person having *full-blown* autism is 'only' about 60%, there is about a further 30% chance of their having a cognitive disorder that does not meet full criteria for autism. Only about 10% are completely neurotypical.

Genetics seem to be the biggest cause of autism, but not the only cause. Severe prematurity, low birthweight and other birth complications are associated with increased risk of autism. When only one of an identical twin pair is autistic, usually the autistic twin was of lower birthweight or had worse birth complications.

There may well be other environmental risk factors in autism: in particular, I think there ought to be more studies of the effects of prenatal infections and pollutants. However, vaccines have been extensively studied, and there is no convincing evidence of their being a cause. Autism rates have not declined in countries where mercury was removed from vaccines (though I think it should be removed on general principle); and the temporary withdrawal and later reintroduction of the MMR vaccine in Japan did not affect rates of autism there.

[kath]

75. An important part of the environment of a child is the parents, and the quality of social

ineraction within the family, parenting, whether the parents promote/encourage obsessive behaviors, etc.:

Some experts believe that in reaction to the discredited theories the pendulum has swung too far away from the family. "The discussion of the role of the family, and social interaction within the family, is virtually taboo," says Anna Baumgaertel, a developmental-behavioral pediatrician at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. She says some of her autistic patients have been heavy video and TV watchers since birth -- a factor she thinks "may lead to autistic behavior in susceptible children, because it interferes with the development of 'live' auditory, visual, and social experience".
http://www.health-news-blog.com/blogs/permalinks/3-2007/does-tv-contribute-to-autism.html

[Lance_Boyle]

8. now you've done it - you've riled up the anti-vaccine crowd.

I'm leaving this thread before I catch something from the mouth-breathing nutheads.

[FlaGranny]

10. I really have no idea what causes autism

but I have a grandson with a mild form of it. When I was growing up in the 1940's, I don't remember one kid in my entire grammar school (small though it was) who had anything resembling what my grandson has. In high school (a bit larger) I have no memory of anyone like my grandson. My own kids, born between 1960-1970 were fine, all their friends were fine. Not one kid in the entire neighborhood had autism. I don't remember any other kids in their schools with it. SOMETHING has happened in the last 50-60 years and I hope that whatever it is, they find an answer. Although my grandson is a sweet kid and as smart as they come, he is always going to be "odd." He is 12 and looks like 17 and acts like he's 6. I worry about him.

[SoCalDem]

18. off topic, but..

Did you EVER know a kid who was deathly allergic to peanuts? I never did...

the chemicals introduced into our lives are to blame..some how some way..there are so many of them and from so many places,. we will never be able to "prove" which one was the "tipping point"..

[glowing]

44. No, its not off topic.. All these environmental stresses on our bodies.. is too much

Look at aquatic life in your area as the first sign of environmental quality.. If your frogs and fish are becoming mutated, don't you think our genes or our developing fetus' genes are potentially in harms way. Life is interconected.. its a whole..

[SoCalDem]

46. When I was a kid you could find frogs & salamanders

just about anywhere there was water..
I haven't seen a frog in decades..except at pet stores or in aquariums..

same for dragon flies & butterflies...

Rachel Carson tried to warn us.. and now we've poisoned ourselves & our children

[LiberalEsto]

92. Garden chemicals

People blast their yards with weed killers and bug killers. When it rains, the stuff runs down into streams and affects the critters that live there.

Pets also seem to die much younger these days. Our dog had to be put to sleep at age 7 because of a huge untreatable sarcoma that was blocking her nose and throat. Of course she drank from every rain puddle she could find when we walked her.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. You don't remember because they put disabled kids in institutions back then

We didn't have any autistic or Downs or any kinds of retarded kids in my school either. But that doesn't mean there weren't kids with these disabilities.

Federal law passed in 1974 said kids with disabilities have to be educated in public schools.

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. In my state, that has been the law for somewhat longer.

... since before I began school.

I see the same thing. My school district has about 1000 kids, of which 130 have IEPs, about half of whom have Autism. Very few people with autism are institutionalized now. Were it not an epidemic, I would expect to see many more adults with it than kids.

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. If 50% of your special ed population is autistic,

your district is breaking records.

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. The 13% is real, the 50% is anecdotal.

I could very well be wrong, but that's what the student services director estimates, and it jives with what I see when I volunteer.

Of the third graders I know to have IEP's, all of them are on the spectrum.

[glowing]

50. my mother .. in same town as I grew up.... has said the number of kids

that have some sort of special needs has increased dramatically.. when I was there 20ish yrs ago (80's) maybe a handful had a special need.. and most of that was in the form of more tutoring in a math or reading.. not like she sees today.. she lives in VT.. so, not sure if increased pesticides and crappy GMO/ processed foods, and increased shots have increased this phenomenom?

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. There are more kids

but mainly because we identify more kids than we used to. Before public schools had to serve kids with disabilities, no one worried about counting them and diagnosing them all correctly like we do now.

Yes there is something causing more kids with autism but many of them are kids we would not have labeled as autistic in the past.

[glowing]

61. no.. small town. population dwindling. too expensive to live in the North..

and she is in VT.. I am talking about the late 80's early 90's.. I graduated college in 2001. Perhaps there are more drugs administered, but they have always been good at this school in identifying the problems, even if a name hadn't been asigned.. She has been in the town all her life.. went to the same school in fact. During my formative years, she was on the school board and new every child and parent.. so, she knew the numbers.. Now, she works with the special needs kids.. and per capita, there are many more children who have special needs..

[FlaGranny]

95. One kid I remember vividly had what

I know now to be Tourette syndrome. His tics were almost contagious. I grew up in a small town, a farming community, where everyone knew everyone. No kids were institutionalized from that town. We had a couple of kids in school who were not at all "bright" but certainly not autistic. Kids like that were just "held back" until they got too old to be in school any more and then they were "graduated."

[conflictgirl]

12. Just because a disease is bad doesn't mean the vaccine against it is safe

I've told this story before, but maybe not here. When my oldest was a baby, the rotavirus vaccine was very new - I opted to wait on it since he wasn't in daycare and was at low risk for contracting the disease, and within just a few months the vaccine had been pulled due to deaths resulting from the vaccine. The chicken pox vaccine was also fairly new when it came time for that to be recommended a few months later, and the whole rotavirus vaccine experience had me pretty wary of new vaccines. My doctor tried selling me on the vaccine, saying that deaths from chicken pox were possible but especially emphasizing the biggest cost of chicken pox being the lost work time for parents. Then there was a sign on the inside of the exam room door detailing the office's policies regarding after-hours calls, and on their list of things that were NOT EMERGENCIES to merit an after-hours call was...chicken pox! I opted not to get the chicken pox vaccination for any of my kids, and they did end up contracting the disease. It was a miserable couple of days but otherwise uncomplicated, and according to my research their immunity to that virus will now be stronger than if they had gotten the vaccine.

My second child then had very severe reactions to his series of DTaP shots, to the point that my pediatrician reported it to the National Vaccine Injury hotline. Despite my experiences, I am not rabidly anti-vaccination. All of my children are between 50-80% vaccinated depending on their ages and their individual health (given that my middle child had severe vaccine reactions, I will NEVER give him multiple vaccines at one time like the current policy recommends).

As for the autism debate, no one knows what has caused the spike in incidence. But enough parents are concerned about the role of vaccination that at the very least, maybe the FDA should step back and at least look at whether or not the public supports their recommended vaccination schedule and the amount of vaccines - new and old - that are now required. The list grows nearly every year.

What I wish wouldn't get so lost in this debate is that there are a LOT of us out here who are not anti-vaccination but who are very worried by the dramatic increase in the number of vaccines recommended for young children, the number that are given at one time, and the sketchy approval process of the FDA in the past decade that has allowed some dangerous vaccines and drugs on to the market. I do still support the classic vaccines of my own childhood in the 70s - which includes those for some very serious diseases like polio and diphtheria - as I think they are mostly time-tested and whatever adverse health effects may be attributed to them outweigh the prevalence of those diseases running rampant again.

But when people like you accuse thoughtful parents like me of being ignorant, it's really insulting. I absolutely believe most of those diseases are serious and vaccination is a good idea - but there is no way in hell I'm going to buy into whatever the FDA and the vaccine manufacturers tell me about the vaccine du jour and convince me to give my kid 12 vaccinations in one day. I believe that as a concerned parent and citizen I should have the right to view these new vaccines with caution and even skepticism.

Just because the disease is bad does not logically follow that the vaccine against it is safe - any more than the Vioxx debacle proved that people's severe pain was worth any price, no matter how dangerous the treatment. We should have the right to demand proven-safe drugs and vaccines before being legally bound to put them into our bodies!

[Fireweed247]

15. great post

:applause:

[uppityperson]

30. I get tired of people who demand total safety in vaccines (general rant)

As a health care provider AND parent, I've gone round and round with this issue from several directions. There is NO absolute safety. Hindsight is good, but difficult to accurately predict the future. Some people are harmed by vaccines, some by the diseases. The question comes up are enough less harmed by the vaccine than the disease.

Difficult for those who have been harmed by a vaccine, but also difficult for those who have been harmed by the disease.

Yes, vaccines need trials to prove efficiency (efficacy? can't get right word) and safety and no, they will never be totally safe as nothing is totally safe for everyone everywhere all the time.

[Fireweed247]

36. They should put some effort into making them safer

If they spent half as much time working to make them safer as they do convincing us they are already safe, we would all be happy.

Half of the crap they put in vaccines are to increase the shelf life, isn't there some other way?

[glowing]

37. So, why isn't there more research being done on the 1 out of 166 babies

now effected by this.. Gene study.. or whatever.. And the societal cost on 1 out of 166 children that will enter adulthood and need a lot of help...

Personally, I think its time to clean up our environment, clean up our food, and clean up our scientific methods.. Its time to look at all the world's medicines.. and really, we are not on the cutting edge by a long shot, and no, I don't think we need to go back to "letting blood". Its time to look at total body wellness from all these factors.. Its not fair to say its just the vaccines, when most mothers are walking around with an increased mercury due to breathing from coal fired electric plants.. its not fair to say its only vaccines, when breast milk can contain jet fuel from the air we breathe.. Its the total package.. I think the vaccines may trigger some of these reactions. Also, if a child is already sick, there is no reason to shoot them up with a vaccine when their immune system is working already to fight off a cold infection. We need to clean up our backyards and we need to create a total wellness for everybody in the entire world. Instead, we shoot off DU weapons, build more factories in less regulated countries, and work way too much. At some point it would be good if all us little ants just took one day off to relax.. might put the top 1% in a bit of a tizzy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. There's lots of research going on all over the world

They just haven't found an answer yet, so you haven't heard about the research.

[uppityperson]

47. I wish there was more reseach into many health issues.

Part of what has happened is changing what is needed for diagnoses with many things. Back when I started my health care career (mid-70's) there were more catch-alls for diagnoses and less definitive diagnoses. This has changed over the yrs, sometimes for the better sometimes for the worse.

Our environment has deteriorated. From materials used in housing, to food, air, water, crap people buy to put on their skins (cosmetics), even perfumes made of nasty stuff found in laundry products, stress (typical greeting "keeping busy?" answer "yes, too busy. ha ha ha"), it all accumulates.

I too believe vaccines can trigger some things. So can stress of other sorts. Cancers and other auto-immune issues are rising fast and I don't believe it is only from diagnoses increasing but generally going up.

Advertising works, people get scared and buy crap and focus on stuff that isn't important and don't do what they should be doing to stay as healthy as they can. Difficult to know who or what to trust either.

Good luck with your kid, it's not easy no matter what and sounds like you got an extra whammy.

[conflictgirl]

52. I don't demand total safety because I know its not possible

But given that we know for a fact that it was known about some meds that the risk of death was discovered during pre-approval studies and covered up, I think it's reasonable to require these companies to wait a little longer and for the FDA to do a LOT more research and testing before allowing the riskiest ones on the market.

[uppityperson]

58. Yup. Another wish is that there would be a way for small research places to continue

rather than having what they find bought out by big companies who then never make what was possible because it costs too much. ALSO to have it be financially possible for smaller places to be able to get what they can make ok'd (if ok-able). Both research and medicines financially possible for smaller places.

[MindPilot]

13. I wonder about the genetic component too.

My son (now 30) is fine. His half-sister is mildly autistic but has pretty much outgrown it as she moved into her late teens. His twin half-brothers (different father than the sister) are fairly severe.

So there you have four kids, three fathers, one mother, and only the first born is not autistic.

I have to wonder if the genetic component is one that fails to prevent it rather than one that causes it.

[alarimer]

22. Just wait, the woo-woos will be out in force.

Apparently science is no match for a post hoc logical fallacy.

[Tyler Durden]

32. Chicken pox vaccine was not available for my Middle Son.

He got it before 1995 when it became available.

He tells me shingles is so much fun he can barely stand it.

[conflictgirl]

51. But if he had been able to get the vaccine back then

Its effectiveness would likely be wearing off right now. People have gotten chicken pox when the vaccine wore off or was insufficient, and now they recommend booster shots. Problem is, if people get their first shot around 1 year, and a booster around age 10, they're going to need another booster right around the time that they're adults and are most vulnerable to the disease being worse.

Also, shingles are due to the disease lying dormant in the body - the vaccine still presents that risk from what I've read.

[Tyler Durden]

80. No.

Vaccines don't work that way: they stimulate an immune response that recognizes the virus when it shows up.

He'd get the booster. Like my 12 year old did this year.

[slackmaster]

53. Shingles is the pits all right

When I was a toddler the preferred "vaccination" method for chicken pox was to send your kids over to play with the neighbors' kids who had the disease.

I got lucky and had just three small lesions.

My brother, several years later, had a moderate case of chicken pox but came down with post-chicken pox encephalitis. He's lucky he avoided permanent neurological damage.

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. It is incumbent on those who dismiss the possibility of an environmental trigger

to explain the concept of "a genetic epidemic".

Also, not all autism is apparent by age two. Increasingly, children develop normally until about that age, then regress - often dramatically.
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/42/15/28

[AllentownJake]

40. I was wondering

If there is a tie in with Vietnam Vets that were near Agent Orange at any time. My brother was autistic and a lot of the fathers of the other kids were Vietnam Vets like my Dad.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. The theory that makes the most sense and has the most scientific support

says there is a genetic factor that is triggered by something in the environment. So it could be a tie to Agent Orange or dozens of other chemical elements.

[dger11]

43. Autism has a very strong genetic component. It's unlikely that most cases

have anything to do with environmental factors. Androgens are probably the culprit, since they are one of the most important substances involved in brain development. Autistic brains appear to be highly masculinized. That's a bit of a pop-science way of putting things, but the research points in that direction.

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. Then it is incumbent to explain the increase in prevalence.

It is hard to explain an epidemic of a primarily genetic disorder.

[dger11]

56. It's not exactly an epidemic. The increase in prevalence may be due to a number

of factors that have nothing to do with more exposure to specific environmental toxins. For example, autism is linked to premature birth. Premature babies are more likely to survive now than they were 30 years ago. This could increase the percentage of autistic people in the population. It could be we are just diagnosing autism a little bit better than we were 20 years ago, and including a wider range of dysfunction in the criteria. And finally, society could actually be selecting for genes that make autism more prevalent. In other words, engineers and physicists might be making more babies.
Environmental toxins and vaccines need not be ruled out. However, the evidence has to be there. Right now, the evidence is pointing toward genetic factors.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. I have a masters in special ed

and when I was in grad school we studied the history of our field. There are absolutely horrific stories of kids who were actually deaf but diagnosed as retarded and placed in institutions, kids who had severe learning disabilities but were diagnosed as retarded and placed in institutions and kids who were most likely autistic but diagnosed as many other things and yes, placed in institutions.

The story everyone knows is Helen Keller's. Her parents had money and hired Anne Sullivan to be her tutor AFTER their family doctors strongly recommended that the Kellers place Helen in an institution. But that was rare; 99% of kids with disabilities like Helen were either allowed to 'mercifully' die as infants or were institutionalized.

The Kennedys had their daughter Rosemary lobotomized in an effort to 'control' her retardation and behavior. And if they hadn't been the notable family they were, no one would have known about this or thought it unusual. That was a very common practice. So was forced sterilization of the disabled.

One of my best friends from elementary school had a sister who had Down's Syndrome and her parents kept her at home until she was a teenager and then placed her in an institution. We had friends whose parents wouldn't let them go over to my friend's house to play because they were afraid of her sister and what she might do. It was highly unusual for her family to keep her as many years as they did in their home.

I had another friend who had a severely retarded brother who was immediately institutionalized at birth and everyone was told he had been a still birth. It was only many years later that my friend discovered she had a brother. Just like in Rainman. That movie was a lot more realistic than many people realize.

There were no sheltered workshops, zero employment opportunities and absolutely NO mainstreaming for kids with severe disabilities. So, most people had no idea how many of these kids there were.

People here on DU often get upset about Reagan closing mental institutions and the resulting influx of homeless people on our streets. But the movement to close the institutions began long before Reagan took office and was a direct result of advocates and families of the institutionalized speaking up and demanding better treatment for the disabled. Obviously, Reagan and his evil Republican cohorts went too far. But improving how we treated our disabled in this country was long overdue.

So seriously studying disabilities and looking for causation and treatment is a fairly new practice. My field is only about 40 years old. When you look at the history, it isn't at all surprising that we still don't know what causes autism. I know that frustrates parents but at least we take far better care of autistic kids than we used to.

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. Well said. Thank you for that.

What the disabled need is community support.

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. You're welcome

We really do a better job of taking care of our kids with disabilities. We still don't do as much as we can though.

[uppityperson]

59. Changes in diagnosing it accounts for a bunch.

Used to be schizophrenia was the catch all diagnoses, but what with more specific diagnoses differentiating, other things have gone up in numbers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. And they are all bi-polar now

It's the diagnosis du jour.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

70. Things previously not classified as Autism are now.

There's your increase.

David

[lumberjack_jeff]

76. No. It's not.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2938386&mesg_id=2950221

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

83. Your own study says it.

Because the autism classification was first introduced in 1992, some of the increase in prevalence should be attributable merely to local education agencies incorporating the new category into their special education classification practices.

Asperger's Syndrome is often classified as a subset of ASD where it wasn't before.

So now I guess I should say yes it is!

David

[lumberjack_jeff]

85. No, it doesn't.

From the Newschaffer study:

Results. Prevalences of disability category classifications for annual birth cohorts from 1975 to 1995 were calculated by using denominators from US Census Bureau estimates. For the autism classification, there were birth cohort differences, with prevalences increasing among successive (younger) cohorts. The increases were greatest for annual cohorts born from 1987 to 1992. For cohorts born after 1992, the prevalence increased with each successive year but the increases did not appear to be as great, although there were fewer data points available within cohorts. No concomitant decreases in categories of mental retardation or speech/language impairment were seen. Curves for other health impairments, the category including children with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, also showed strong cohort differences.

Conclusions. Cohort curves suggest that autism prevalence has been increasing with time, as evidenced by higher prevalences among younger birth cohorts. The narrowing in vertical separation of the cohort curves in recent years may mark a slowing in the autism prevalence increase.

This topic has been hashed and rehashed.

If the autism epidemic were explainable by changes in diagnoses, you would see "concomitant decreases in categories of mental retardation" or other developmental disabilities. We do not.

Autism is an epidemic - not a fad. Vaccine fundamentalists who find comfort in the belief that the Autism epidemic is nothing more collective fantasy, and that environment plays no role in Autism, must explain this; there's no such thing as a genetic epidemic.

Autism prevalence HAS been increasing with time.

Aspergers was first described in 1944. Until 1981, it was rarely, if ever given as a diagnosis. In 1994, official diagnostic critera were established under the ASD umbrella.
http://psychcentral.com/lib/2007/history-of-aspergers-disorder/

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

86. The qoute was from your study.

I didn't say it was responsible for all of the increases. It is to blame for some of the increase. Environment may play a role as a trigger. The increase has continued since Thimerosal was removed from routine childhood vaccines, so it would appear that vaccines do not play the role that many believe.

David

[lumberjack_jeff]

87. I don't claim to know which environmental factors play a role.

Only that they do, and that the result is causing huge harm.

... and I consider vaccines on the table for scrutiny.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

100. I never said you shouldn't.

I see a wide variety of patients some who are more sensitive to certain things than other people are. When I was in the army we sent a guy home from Kuwait after he had heat exhaustion every day for the first 2 weeks we were there. He was pale skinned, with freckles and red hair. He wasn't built to live in the desert. He was very sensitive to heat. My wife is extremely sensitive to mold, it doesn't bother me a bit. I'm sure that certain kids are genetically predisposed to autism and a certain number of those kids also has sensitivities to environmental exposures that can act as a trigger and when they are exposed to those triggers sometimes they develop autism. At least that would be my guess about the way things may happen in some kids.

David

[Greyhound]

66. While I have no position on this, I am not nearly as accepting of allopathic "medicine",

as it is practiced in our "profits before everything" society, nor am I as ready to dismiss "alternative medicine" as you seem to be. I only have two things to say to your proclamation of myth to the theories regarding the increase in the rates of autism, Thalidomide and ibuprofen.

[dorkulon]

73. In support of a Thimerosal-autism link:

*
Autism was first identified in children born soon after thimerosal was first introduced to babies in 1931.
*
In 1930, Eli Lilly injected 22 meningitis patients with thimerosal—all died within weeks. This “finding” didn’t make its way into their report, which declared the cost-saving substance safe.
*
In 1935, vaccine maker Pittman-Moore declared thimerosal “unsatisfactory” for use in dogs, when half died after test vaccinations. They warned Eli Lilly of their findings, to no avail.
*
In 1971, an Eli Lilly study found that a hundredth the typical amount of thimerosal in a vaccine was toxic to tissue cells.
*
In 1977, a Russian study found that doses of ethyl mercury far lower than those given to American children still led to permanent brain damage. Soon after, thimerosal was banned from children’s vaccines there.
*
In 1991, the FDA considered banning thimerosal from animal vaccines. But that same year, the CDC and FDA recommended three additional vaccines containing thimerosal be given to infants, including one on the day of their birth. Since then, autism rates have increased from 1 in 2,500 to 1 in 166. At two months, infants often received three thimerosal-based shots in a single day. The chairman of the CDC advisory committee which made these recommendations was a paid consultant for the majority of major vaccine makers, and at least one other person on the committee was a researcher for these companies.
*
In 2000, without public announcement, the CDC privately invited 52 industry experts to the Simpsonwood conference center in Norcross, Georgia. This is where Kennedy’s article begins. Dr. Thomas Verstraten, a CDC epidemiologist, after examining the records of 100,000 children, presented some difficult-to-ignore findings to his colleagues. Here are a few quotes from the transcript of the secret meeting:

Dr. Bill Weil, American Academy of Pediatrics: “There are just a host of neurodevelopmental data that would suggest that we’ve got a serious problem… To think there isn’t some possible problem here is unreal.”

Verstraeten: “...we have found statistically significant relationships between the exposures and outcomes for these different exposures and outcomes. First, for two months of age, an unspecified developmental delay... Exposure at three months of age, Tics. Exposure at six months of age, an attention deficit disorder. Exposure at one, three and six months of age, language and speech delays… Exposure at one, three and six months of age, the entire category of neurodevelopmental delays, which includes all of these plus a number of other disorders.”

Dr. David Johnson, State public health officer in Michigan, member of the ACIP vaccine policy committee: “This association leads me to favor a recommendation that infants up to two years old not be immunized with thimerosal… My gut feeling? It worries me enough… I do not want grandson to get a Thimerosal containing vaccine until we know better what is going on.
Weil: “The number of dose related relationships are linear and statistically significant. You can play with this all you want. They are linear. They are statistically significant…I think you can’t accept that this is out of the ordinary. It isn’t out of the ordinary….The increased incidence of neurobehavioral problems in children in the past few decades is probably real…
Dr. Robert Brent, a pediatrician at the Alfred I. duPont Hospital for Children: “…we are in a bad position from the standpoint of defending any lawsuits if they were initiated and I am concerned.”
Dr. John Clements, World Health Organization's Expanded Program on Immunization: “…I really want to risk offending everyone in the room by saying that perhaps this study should not have been done at all, because the outcome of it could have, to some extent, been predicted… there is now the point at which the research results have to be handled, and even if this committee decides that there is no association and that information gets out… that will be taken by others and will be used in ways beyond the control of this group. And I am very concerned about that…”
Dr. Roger Bernier, CDC's National Immunization Program: “We have asked you to keep this information confidential… I think it would serve all of our interests best if we could continue to consider these data… in a certain protected environment… So too basically consider this embargoed information. That would help all of us to use the machinery that we have in place for considering these data and for arriving at policy recommendations.”

*
In 2001, after the Simpsonwood conference, the CDC instructed the Institute of Medicine to produce a study to allay fears of thimerosal causing brain disorders. Some quotes from the official transcript of a closed meeting on January 12th of that year:

Dr. Marie McCormick, Chairman of the Immunization Safety Review Committee: “ wants us to declare, well, these things are pretty safe on a population basis.”
Kathleen Stratton, Ph.D., Study Director for the Committee: “We said this before you got here, and I think we said this yesterday, the point of no return, the line we will not cross in public policy is to pull the vaccine, change the schedule…Even recommending research is recommendations for policy. We wouldn’t say compensate, we wouldn’t say pull the vaccine, we wouldn’t say stop the program.”
Dr. McCormick: “We are not ever going to come down that it is a true side effect...”

All of these statements were made before the committee had considered any evidence.

*
Stratton refers also in the transcript to “Walt” and “what Walt wants,” referring to Dr. Walter Orenstein, the CDC’s National Immunization Program director.
*
Confronted in 2004 at an autism conference by Dr. Andrew Wakefield with a transcript from this committee and the charge that the CDC had instructed the committee as to what its findings should be, Stratton did not deny the charge, but simply said to Wakefield that the transcript “was not to be shared with you.”
*
In April of this year, UPI’s Dan Olmstead, in search of a ‘control group’ of children who had not been exposed to thimerosal, looked for autism in the Amish community of Lancaster County, PA (the Amish don’t vaccinate their kids). According to statistical levels, he figured there should be 130 autistic children there, but could only find four—one who had been exposed to mercury from a power plant, and three had, indeed, been vaccinated.

[TZ]

98. Source? BS total bs

Go read the links at NIH who have studied this for years.
I'm betting your source won't pass muster with quackwatch. I've heard this bullshit for years.
Oh btw, Andrew Wakefield is a HUGE FRAUD and QUACK and is very likely going to lose his medical license as he has really hurt his "patients" with potentially LETHAL and UNAPPROVED experiments.

[Junkdrawer]

81. Changes in the diagnostic standard could mask any link....

When and why did the diagnostic standard change? :shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

89. 1993 and it changed for two reasons:

a) Better knowledge
b) Because asd's are becoming more common

When one out of 10,000 kids who have autism are misdiagnosed with childhood schizophrenia or mental retardation, it's somewhat understandable because it's rare.

When one out of 150 display the same traits, it's not unusual any more. It then becomes clear that the diagnostic tools need improvement.

[Debbi801]

84. I am the mom of a high functioning autistic (Asperger's) 6 yr old...

I don't think the anyone really knows for sure what role the vaccines play. My thought is that there is some sort of link, but only if the neurological disorder was there to begin with.

I have 3 kids, all were vaccinated on time. Two are NT, one isn't.

I don't have a problem with people making their own decisions as far as the vaccines go. Isn't that part of parenting?

What I do have a problem with is the people (like McCarthy) who come out and claim that their kids are suddenly "cured." This isn't a curable disease. Yes, diet may help in some cases. Just like the OT, sensory diet, and social skills therapy will hopefully help my son. But I don't expect that one day he's suddenly going to be cured. And honestly, I'd miss all the quirks.

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. As children grow up, "the quirks" begin to interfere with their quality of life.

My son is 9. He wants to play baseball. Unfortunately, setting aside the motor skill problems, the rules (written and unwritten) are beyond his ability to grasp.

Tom Hanks says "there's no crying in baseball".

[Debbi801]

90. I don't doubt that, which is why my son is in so many different kinds of therapy ...

In hopes that they will help him now and as he gets older. I want him to be able to have a good quality of life, be able to say "hello" to someone he meets, make a friend (and actually remember the person's name), etc. But, I don't want to lose the essence of what makes him who he is. Does that make sense?

What you've described with your son is exactly why we have been afraid to do any kind of organized sport with our son. :hug: That has to be so hard for both of you.

As an aside, a friend's 16 yr old son has AS. He's never had therapy because they didn't want the stigma that went with the diagnosis. Sadly, they can't take him anyplace now because he's a danger to himself and the people around him.

edited for spelling, because I forgot to spell check the first time. :)

[lumberjack_jeff]

93. Absolutely right - and it absolutely makes sense.

My son is the most honest person I've ever met. He is generally good natured and happy - unless he encounters some form of adversity. He's never belligerent or combative and he's always comfortable with affection.

That's not to say there are no frustrations. You work through them.

What has been good is teaching my son chess. They had a chess tournament recently, and although he probably won't ever be a grand master, he did a really great job with the sportsmanship part of it. I was really proud of him.

There are so many things to know when playing sports that NT's take for granted. Chess teaches many of those lessons without the chaos and pressure.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

102. Chess is a good idea.

I have played for quite a while at a reasonably high level (for a fireman anyway). I can't play untimed games, I have a moderately bad case of non-hyperactive ADD, I can get through them on meds but I usually play chess at night. Does he like computers? If he does Yahoo has one of the better free Chess Boards for players of all skill levels. The sportsmanship leaves a little to be desired though but you can turn the chat off.

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

101. I would be curious.

If he is athletic have you considered golf? Maybe not playing initially but hitting balls at the range without a care in the world where they go.

David

[mamalone]

91. With my oldest daughter...

I was very compliant to the doctors recommendations. She got all of her immunizations right on schedule. She got very sick after each one, but I was told that her reactions weren't "severe." My other children I was much more hesitant about the imms.... they have all been immunized but not on the schedule the doctor preferred. My youngest son is 9yo and he has gotten most of his, but he won't be getting the chicken pox vaccination.

Interestingly enough, my oldest daughter who had all her imms on schedule has an autism spectrum disorder... and she's the only one on either side of the family with one. Coincidence? maybe... but something like this is mightily compelling when it's the health and well being of your child that is potentially on the line.