Europeans had $4.00 a gallon while we enjoyed $1.50 (or so)

[question everything]

How do they handle it and why can't we, too?

Is it lack of sprawl? Better public transportation?

[magellan]

1. Better public transportation AND higher incomes

Like, in line with that quaint old thing called the COST OF LIVING.

[uppityperson]

10. Not nec higher incomes. Many places don't have higher incomes.

Usually they get more than higher profits for big oil companies though. Health care for instance.

[magellan]

15. Overall their earnings are more in line with the cost of living than ours

Workers in America have been losing ground for decades. Not so in Europe. The UK minimum wage UK is the equivalent of about $10.00.

[uppityperson]

18. Family in France saying food costs going up fast now also.

Factoring in housing costs though takes a chunk out of that, at least for the last bit. And food costs raising fast.

Still, they get affordable health care, including dental, paid for by higher taxes.

[JDPriestly]

49. Healthier currency. Possibly higher interest rates?

[Angela Shelley]

2. Cars with better gas mileage, walking or biking to the stores,

turning off the engine while in a parking lot, etc.

[JDPriestly]

50. I think you can rent a bike on the street from a stand -- in Paris.

That's a great idea. I believe that you get a sort of credit or debit card with which you can automatically rent a bike. You can return the bike at your destination without returning to the location where you rented it. I saw a video on this.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

3. Except they get things like universal health care for those prices

We just get oil company profits.

[stray cat]

4. Both - but also look at the size of the countries

If my family and I all lived in NY it would be alot easier than with family spread out in Arkansas, NY and Iowa.

[KillCapitalism]

5. Their countries are much smaller.

A lot of nations in Europe are maybe the size of West Virginia, so to get from one place to another within them is not too much of a drive.

[LynzM]

6. Both of those things.

Plus better pedestrian safety. Many places in the U.S., it's life-threatening to try to walk, sometimes to someplace even 1/4 mile away. We don't build to accomodate pedestrians and bicycle traffic here.

Oh, and smaller cars that use less fuel, too.

[Bonobo]

7. I am told they get a great deal back in social services for that extra money.

Most Europeans have cradle to grave health coverage and can go to college free while getting months paid off for family leave, etc.

Because they don't spend so much money trying to figure how to make tools that put holes into people.

[underpants]

11. Also the still mostly live in urban settings

there really isn't anything like a "suburb" (at least to our scale) in Europe.

They can walk, bike, taxi, or mass transit it to most anywhere they need to go.

[Bonobo]

12. Good point.

That's why this country is fucked so badly with the price of oil going up.

[bdamomma]

30. not to be rude, but Americans have a love affair with their cars.

[stray cat]

35. and with their jobs and extended family

some of us can't afford to live where we work and the jobs are specialized and hard to come by. 30 miles on highways without shoulders is a long and dangerous bike expecially after dark.

[TooBigaTent]

22. Even those in the "country" know enough to bundle trips, ride bikes, buy more

efficient cars, etc.

[question everything]

33. Yes. Here, if you walk or bike and need to cross an intersection

at the "walk" sign, you really have to watch for SUVs who make a right or left turn and just glance to see if other cars are coming.

[JDPriestly]

52. I beg to differ. There are small towns surrounding some of the cities

that are like suburbs. Traditionally, in middle Europe, people lived farmhouses kind of clustered into villages. They farmed plots of land, apparently not necessarily contiguous in the surrounding countryside. It was a different concept. We tend to want a house with a large land area around it when possible. That is our idea of the good life. Some European houses are that way, but often even the farmers lived in villages and towns. In London, some of the housing used to be large one family homes that had been cut up into tiny bed-sitters or one room apartments.

In Austria, we lived in apartments that looked out onto a "Hof" or courtyard, effectively an outdoor living space shared by all the residents of the apartments. Shops were on the ground floor, apartments above. This was also true in Paris, however, in Paris we did not have a Hof. Instead, there were always small parks within easy walking distance of our apartment building. The great thing about the parks was that the government provided park attendants who observed the children as they played -- making sure the children did not get hurt. It was not uncommon for the park attendant to intercede in sand throwing fights or other problems. I loved it.

You could walk or use public transportation to get where you needed to go. In my experience, in Europe, people used to be able to get what they needed pretty close to home -- within walking distance or within and easy drive.

[BigDaddy44]

57. You're right

My father grew up in a suburb of Dresden during World War II. It was just that ... a suburb. (And for obvious reasons i'm glad he didn't live downtown)

[KG]

8. they don't commute one person per gas guzzling SUV.

[newfie11]

44. I was in Germany in October 2007. The trip to my friends home from Frankfort

to Bodelshausen was stop and go bumper to bumper traffic. It was during what we call rush hour. People do commute to different towns for work and many of the cars I saw only had 1 person in them. This was on the Autobahn. I am told their gas is also going up.
One interesting thing is their trucks are smaller than our semi's and they cannot run on Sunday. It is a law but I don't know why.

[lisa58]

9. I was in Germany almost 20 years ago...

...and it was 5 dmarks a gallon then. They ride bicycles and the towns were small. You could walk to the market very easily and they have very small cars. Only the rich had big cars.

[bullimiami]

13. the rest is taxes, it helps pay for their excellent infrastructure and social services.

its all a ponzi scheme. we spend the same money, elsewhere, and get less for it and lower quality while more profits are made.
if it wasnt all obscured from view here we might demand results and to get our moneys worth.

[truebrit71]

14. They handled it as well as they could..bearing in mind that 90% of that was in taxes...

...that went to pay for things like health care for everyone, public transport etc...

In other words in went somethere OTHER than directly into the pockets of the gouging oil companies...

[lpbk2713]

16. I'm just curious ...

Anybody know how much US Military personnel pay per gallon on base in Europe through the PX?

Seems like they would get a break on taxes unless the PX got their bulk deliveries locally.

[flygal]

31. I had some friends here in Germany in the military

they both brought their SUVs over and regreted it. Not so much for the gas prices - they bought on base or could use credit cards at certain German stations to get a cheap price - don't remember what it was. But, they both hated that their SUVs couldn't do impressive speeds on the autobahn. I am seeing fewer and fewer US military SUVs over here - I was surprised they didn't discourage it as not just gas hoggers but MY GOD - you can't park those things over here!!!

[Warpy]

17. MUCH better mass transit

plus they're not getting gouged for health care. A car is a luxury in Europe, while it's a necessity here. Their mass transit is subsidized by the state, our personal transit is only partially subsidized by gas taxes that keep superhighways in repair.

Not only that, but Europeans don't drive gas hogs and generally don't flock to exurbs unless there is a train that will take them to their workplace.

The monster truck/SUV/momvan craze seems to be dying. Most of the temporary tags I've seen on new cars have been on sedans and econocars, very few on the hulking monstrosities that have been clogging the roads for the past 10 years. This is the wild west, so I imagine the same trend is elsewhere.

Gas in central NM today is $3.49. I think that's the highest it's ever been around here.

[question everything]

32. Too much to hope, I suppose, that this increase in gas price would force us

to take a look at our economy. To, yes, subsidize public transportation and to have some sort of a national health care paid by our taxes.

We have an FAA that is mandated with using tax money to promote aviation, but Amtrak, for example, is expected to be profitable. And the McCain-VP-wannabe, MN governor Pawlenty, just line itemed veto a bond proposal to extend the light rail between Minneapolis and St. Paul.

Monday I paid $3.17 but heard that yesterday it jumped to $3.30, or so.

[Warpy]

45. That's the good news in central NM

Governor Richardson actually got a north-south commuter rail system up and running. It will extend from the mid Rio Grande Valley exurbs to the south to Santa Fe by the end of the year. Ridership goes up every time gas prices go up and I know I'll be one of the first riders to Santa Fe--I hate that drive.

This is a state that has only a half assed bus system in the bigger cities. Getting a commuter train up and running out here is a very big deal.

[napi21]

19. BIG DIFFERENCE! Most of the cost of fuel in Europe is taxes

that are used to build/maintain roads.They NEVER have the stupid arguments about how much of the General Fund tax $$ to put into the Highway bill. You also have to remember that europeans have driven much smaller cars with a lot more fuel efficiency that we have for a LONG TIME.

I can't speak to every country in europe, but my son lives & works in Sicily, and THERE the majority of people live in the cities, and most of the stores are small neighborhood shops that people wal to so they don't even OWN a car. My son lives in Catania which is one of the larger cities in
Sicily, and he told me they finally built ONE big box store similar to Wallmart, but it's the ONLY one around. It's a completely different life styly than we have here.

[flygal]

34. Walmart here went under

People pretty much stick to their local markets. They just don't seem too into the strip mall scene - and it's regulated pretty strongly against that too as property and taxes are high.

[SoCalDem]

20. They also had HIGH TAXES..which BTW gave them:

tip top mass transit
free or near free college
free or near free health care (better than ours)
maternity AND paternity leave ..PAID LEAVE
old age benefits far superior to our SS
unemployment payments as long as you NEED them
6-7 weeks of PAID vacation for all workers


sounds to ME like they have had a pretty good deal, no matter how much their gas cost..and their taxes seem to have gone to a better purpose too:)

makes me wish I had been born French..(although 1949 was not yet a very good time to be in Europe)

[question everything]

37. You mean, they are commie pinkos?

:sarcasm:

[SoCalDem]

39. yup.. and damned civilized too

if only we could be too:cry:

our leaders have a vested interest in the ruination of the public education system..

The European school system seems to do a better job of educating their people.. educated people will not stand for mal-treatment....

[PoiBoy]

21. 14 cents a gallon in Venezuela?

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/price.html

:wow:

[Marrah_G]

23. Both

I cannot get to work via public transportation, nor can I do the things I need to do during the week via public transportation. A car is necessary.

[Rosemary2205]

24. No they didn't

They had $1 gas and $3 taxes and we had $1 gas and 50 cent taxes.

Our taxes go to lobbyists and their's go to social projects.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

25. They have much better mass transit and they don't have to dive into pocket for health care,

college and other services.

[flygal]

26. I live in Germany

as far as I can tell it's several things. Cars are more fuel efficient. Fewer people own them - it's very expensive to get a license and you have to be 19. I think it costs around 1400 eur. Insurance is expensive. So many families make do with one car - us being one of those families. You rarely see SUV's - if you do they have US military license plates on - although I am seeing fewer of those too.

It is so usual to see people - like me, pulling our shopping bags on wheels to the store which is 15 to 20 min walk. You see so many people out walking/riding bikes to get around both out of necessity and also because it's so easy to do.

There so many many neighborhood stores like Aldi, Penny Markt - where as in my hometown in MT the 4-5 grocerie stores mainly are on outlying highway areas where you really can't walk - you could, but there's so much traffic it is such an unpleasant experience.

Also, public trains take you all over Germany - the schedule to small towns is pretty good and it's doable because the country is so concentrated. Germany is as big as Montana. Only MT had 800,000 people and Germany has 80 million.

As much as I miss some of the conveniences and the restaurants in the US - this is a very healthy lifestyle. Sundays we do absolutely NO shopping. It's family day. nice.

[question everything]

40. Here, sometimes you will have "special projects" where you put residential

units above retail, and try to make it "quaint" European style.

I remember the central station in Copenhagen, with hundreds of bikes available for rent. On the honor system.

Remember several years ago, a visitor from Sweden, I think, created a havoc in NYC because she left her baby in the pram outside a restaurant?

But then, many of us remember roaming the streets of our neighborhoods when we were kids, cycling or walking to school. Not today. Parents would be crazy to just let their kids roam freely.

[flygal]

43. I often left my sleeping outside a cafe or bakery

mainly if there were steps going in or the baby so wrapped up - we could see her and it was just done over here.

Kids are expected to walk to school here - starting grade 1. I am the ONLY parent picking my kid up to walk home with her and her friends. The other kids are just on their own walking mostly in groups - up to 1 1 /2 miles each way. And they don't complain.

They spent the first two weeks of school going over saftey - they walked the route with them and had police there. It's a big thing. In MT it was sad to see so many huge vehicles dropping kids off and they easy had less than than a mile to walk. Too bad they can't figure out groups to walk with or have more crossing guards.

Like I said below - it's nice here. I'll miss it when we have to move back to the asphalt jungle.

[LynzM]

42. Hey flygal...

Can I ask where in Germany you are? We're planning to move to Munich in August, all stars aligning correctly and such ;) :hi:

[flygal]

47. Munich!!

We were just in Munich last Saturday - what a great city. There was actually an article in the NYT last Sunday about it that summed it up perfectly. We live two hours away near Ansbach in the Franken section of Bavaria. It's nice and quaint here and close to many things.

But Munich - sigh - so much going on for expats to do but the city is still so Bavarian. It's really true to itself. I was surprised with how many people didn't speak English - except at the main tourist things. It's not like Frankfurt or Berlin.

And the location is fabulous. Near the Alps and close to Salzburg and Nuremberg. Cheap airlines to anywhere!! I hope it works out for you - a DU meet up in Munich - I'm in!!!:toast:

[JDPriestly]

55. We lived in the Passau area and later around the Isar river.

The countryside was beautiful although a bit too well groomed for my taste.

[LynzM]

56. Cool, I'll look forward to it!

It'll be nice to see MissHC, 48Percenter, Karenina, Angela Shelley.... and probably others I don't know yet! :toast:

I read the NYT article... I'm so looking forward to the amount of design and art in Munich. And parks, and good food, and great public transportation, etc., etc. Have you seen Munich Daily Photo? It's linked in my blog (link in my sig, below). Neat daily pics from the city!

[JDPriestly]

53. I have great memories of Germany -- Bavaria to be exact.

Sounds like it hasn't changed in the past 20 years. Do you still use the Netz for shopping. Those are great. Also, do you still notice that Europeans buy what they need for a day or two only and then shop again. They want to buy fresh food. When I was there, the refrigerators were generally quite small. Americans buy a week's worth of groceries each time they shop. I think we allow more food to spoil in our homes than Europeans do.

[JDPriestly]

54. Dup

[Lifetimedem]

27. That money

Helps support the "free "day care and health care.

If $3.00 of my gas money was going to fund those things instead of line the pockets of the Arabs and oil companies I would not care as much.

[tama]

28. those plus

more efficient cars, much better km/litre ration than US gaz guzzlers.

[bdamomma]

29. maybe they afford their gas because they get higher wages.

Americans keep on working for peanuts, not even peanuts!

[The2ndWheel]

36. Geographically smaller, smaller populations, were the centers of world power

Lost wars to us, or didn't outlast us, so they don't have a military, because if they did, it would be a challenge to US power(and you don't win wars and voluntarily give that power up). That's why the US taxpayer has the burden of paying to police the world. A global military without a globe paying to have it is very difficult, as we're seeing.

It's the same idea behind universal healthcare. It doesn't work unless the entire population is paying into the same system. If globalization is unavoidable, then everyone has to chip in their fair share to provide that military force, which is not only required, but built into the way we organize life. That's especially true for the US and Europe. Throw China, India, Brazil, etc in there as well.

[NNN0LHI]

38. But how much has Europe been paying for our military to go steal it all these years?

Got to figure that into the equation.

Don

[pansypoo53219]

41. better roads too.

they don't shop stupid like we do. waste money like we do.

[caledesi]

46. They get more than gas..healthcare, transportation and much more! NT

[JDPriestly]

48. Both. I lived in England, France, Germany and Austria

and for quite a few years. In urban areas, the public transportation is wonderful. The cities were developed in an entirely different way than here. Travel in, around and to and from rural areas is less well organized, much more difficult .

[question everything]

62. Reminds me of SoCal in the 50s

which used to have public transportation, until the oil and auto industries destroyed it.

[Crunchy Frog]

51. They don't have the level of dependency on automobiles that we do.

Their communities tend to be structured in ways that are far more friendly to walking and bicycling than American communities are. They also have vastly better public transportation. Many people can get along quite well with no automobile at all, while similarly situated people here are absolutely dependent on cars. Just a very different culture.

[Richard Steele]

58. The extra $2.50/gallon went to social services, not into an Oil Executive's pocket.

And, they have much better public transportation, and cities
designed to accommodate & encourage bicycle/scooter usage.

We had some great Public Trans here, years ago. General Motors
bought it all and destroyed it, to force people to buy cars.
And they threw a lot of "lobbyi$t hour$" into influencing our
basic ideas of Urban Design, so we end up with cities where
you MUST use a car to live & work.



That's some tinfoil theory- it was proven in COURT, long ago.
GM was found GUILTY of deliberately destroying the USA's
public transit infrastructure.

There's an excellent documentary that lays it all out:
http://www.newday.com/films/Taken_for_a_Ride.html

[question everything]

63. Yes, I know. Certainly in SoCal in the 50s

Both the auto and the oil industries.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

59. Last time I was in England, gas was 99p per liter

At current exchange rates, 99p is nearly $2.00, so that's $2.00 for a little more than a quart.

The last time I looked at gas prices in Japan, which was 2000 (I just don't pay attention), it was about $5.00 a gallon.

Both places have more compact cities and better public transit, although Japan is even way ahead of the UK in this respect, for both urban transit and intercity rail.

[marmar]

60. Europeans don't need to drive.....Centralized cities and great public transit.

Only one of my friends from Europe owns a car, and he rarely uses it.

[MadHound]

61. Let's see,

They have a much better mass transit system, their individual countries, excepting Russia, are the size of US states, their cars have always gotten much better fuel mileage, and look what they get for all those taxes that they pay(which is what drives up their fuel costs). Hell, I'd be willing to pay extra gas taxes if I got real, true universal health care in exchange.

[JackRiddler]

64. At that time it was a spur to development...

One factor is there was incentive to occupy niches that the US has abandoned, ways to save energy, be more efficient.