Anyone else struck by the eerie voicelessness

[pnwmom]

of the Texas polygamist women? Their physical lack of voice seems so much in keeping with their psychological lack of voice.

All of the various sets of three women I have seen on video, women of all ages, have the same odd high-pitched voice -- no depth of tone at all -- almost as if they weren't speaking with their vocal cords.

How did all of them get to have that voice? Do they copy it in each other? Were they deliberately trained to speak like that as girls? Is it part of being "sweet"?

For me, it's part of what makes them appear so robotic -- especially when it's coupled with their evasive answers to simple questions.

Psychologically speaking, I wonder what it means that a whole community of adult women speaks in this strained fashion.

[Clear Blue Sky]

1. That entire situation is surreal.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

2. It's modeled for them mostly, I'm guessing.

I mean, if you think about it, a lot of the behavior we "modern" women adopt to express culturally sanctioned femininity isn't specifically taught to us. We watch our moms and aunts and then our peers in school and emulate them. I bet that's probably where 80% of social conditioning comes from. Probably, the more soft-spoken and deferential you are in that patriarchal hellhole, the better off you are and the girls pick it up right away.

[murielm99]

3. Holy cow, you're right.

They all sound like little girls.

My dad made some old reel-to-reel tape recordings of us when we were kids. It is funny to listen to my brothers talk in their little-boy voices. But my voice was different, too. It is lower and firmer now. If I still spoke like I did when I was ten, I would sound like a cartoon character.

[monmouth]

4. It's very "Stepford Wifeish"....n/t

[DesertRat]

5. I'm old enough to remember the Manson murders

"Charlie's girls" who were willing to murder for him, all sounded eerily the same during the trials.

[EFerrari]

6. It's their breathing. It isn't normal. It's shallow.

When you're breathing like that, your voice production is impaired. :(

[SoCalDem]

10. and they have been stifled from day one..

I'm sorry, but those men need to be all removed & locked up..

Pay someone to work the fields..send all those women to school and let them learn some real things..and if necessary, find homes for the children..

Tear that abomination of a building DOWN..or turn it into a REAL school..

Turning a blind eye to these things does no good..

It's not about religion..it's about control and pedophilia

[EFerrari]

11. I'm with you but I have a problem with the government cuts corners

to save money. Those women and their kids were treated like cattle. That's only going to add to their trauma. :(

[kestrel91316]

13. If they gave each and every one individual custom kid glove treatment

and didn't legally consolidate the kids' cases, the court cases wouldn't be finished before the last of the kids turned 21.

[EFerrari]

15. There is always a good reason to deprive people, especially women,

of their constitutional rights. And any competent judge could order protective orders for those children.

It's one thing to take 50 cats away from a hoarder with no notice. This situation is different and more complicated.

[kestrel91316]

19. So you would turn the children back to their parents and let the abuse continue??

The children should not be denied safe haven due to their parents' rabbitlike breeding propensities.

[EFerrari]

20. No, that would be ridiculous. Talk about leaping to conclusions.

What I mean is, once those women and those kids were in custody, they should have been treated as if they were citizens of the United States, and not like feral animals with a smattering of language.

[pnwmom]

28. Part of the problem was that the bigger facility they needed

was already occupied -- they had to wait for it to get emptied and cleaned.

But they have been making some accommodations that are unusual -- bringing in special food, having a ratio of only 3 children to every CPS worker, etc.

And I appreciated the fact that they let the women come along with the children at first -- that way the women had a chance to decide if they wanted to return to the ranch or not (six did not). It also gave the children a chance to adjust while their mothers were still there. This, again, isn't something that normally happens in suspected abuse cases.

[EFerrari]

35. Some of those women looked so young to me.

Like teenagers, some of them?

Did you notice, in addition to their voicelessness, their faces (when they weren't weeping) were strangely devoid of expression.

[pnwmom]

44. Some of them might have been teenagers. That's one of the

problems CPS has had -- just getting their names and ages straight. Some of them might have claimed to be older than they were, in order not to be swept up with the first group of teenage girls. But the end result would be that now they're separated from their children.

I saw an interview where someone asked a young woman how old she was when she was married. A simple question, right? Her answer was something like "I was of age, 18, 19, age isn't relevant, I'm not married."


Yes, I did notice the faces, too. Beautiful faces, in a way -- great bone structure. But old compared to the voices, and almost expressionless.

These women have spent their lives in the prison of their husband's and elders' narcissism -- with no healthy role models outside their families to give them hope. No wonder they look haunted.

[EFerrari]

50. There but for the grace of God.

I wish I were more mobile.

:hug:

[pnwmom]

61. Have you ever read "Trapped in the Mirror"?

Another good book about narcissistic families.

Back at you.

:hug:

[Hamlette]

287. How could you leave your children if you honestly feared for their emotional state?

What was there for them to go back to?

Am I the only mother who thinks it odd they would return to the "ranch" when they could stay with their kids?

[Irishonly]

160. I Agree With You

Thank you for bringing this up. At first, I was caught up with, I guess you could call it shock. Then to see how wooden the women appeared to be and the MSM wanting to keep the shock value going people are forgetting the children. The kids did no wrong and they are being ripped from their world. I am not sure how many of the women losing their children were raised by the compound. I can't even begin to imagine how complicated it is. There is no clear cut answer on this one.

[ourbluenation]

286. unfortunatly the women are adults and can do as they please. The indoctrination of the kids is abuse

[pnwmom]

That makes sense to me, sfexpat2000.

Because I can easily make myself talk like that (I tried -- because I wanted to see how all those women managed to sound alike). But when I speak like that I'm aware that my breath is wrong somehow.

[EFerrari]

26. "If I only use a little air, maybe no one will notice."

:(

[raccoon]

249. Great observation. Lots of times people who grew up in alcoholic or similarly dysfunctional homes

breathe shallowly, so as not to be noticed.

[Matariki]

87. Maybe they're wearing corsets under those dresses...

kinky.

[XemaSab]

215. I'll tell you what they're wearing:

teh garment. :scared:

[Irishonly]

7. To me

they almost looked like POWs. I don't know if it was depression about losing their children or brain washing but the woman I heard spoke like a robot although a robot may have more inflection in the machine created voice.

I think it's strange that none of the men come out and answer anything and the women won't answer anything about husband(s). Real men at that complex. They are hiding behind the women.

[lunatica]

8. Lots of women speak like that when they address someone in authority

They learn it at their father's knee. Speak sweetly and your father just loves you soooo much! You're a 'good girl', you're 'nice', 'polite', sugar and spice and all things nice.

Women don't speak to each other like that because we know what's going on, so chances are quite good that those women speak in normal voices to each other and their children.

It's the sudden shocking crashing in of the world with cameras in their faces and studio lights and loud people bearing down on them that make them want to just huddle together and become very very sweet so all those loud crass people screaming at them will be mollified. They're frigging scared to death, as I would be if it happened to me and I'm not a protected woman!

[pnwmom]

27. I don't know ANY woman who speaks like that,

though I've seen videotapes of Jackie Kennedy with that kind of whispery-girlie voice.

I agree they're scared to death. But I think they're always scared to death, underneath -- that's what it's like, to live with narcissists. And what could be more grandiose than for a man to aspire to be a god of his own planet?

[EFerrari]

37. Do you remember Ted's girlfriend on the Mary Tyler Moore Show?

She talked like that. A "little" non-threatening, passive-aggressive "girl". So creepy.

[pnwmom]

63. You're right! I forgot all about her. Now imagine

a whole show populated with women who sounded just like her.

Exponentially creepy.

[lunatica]

60. You haven't noticed how Condi does it when she's

put on the spot and she's trying to wriggle out of it? Who would have ever thought that airplanes would be used.... Don't you remember her plaintive little girl look and the higher pitch of her voice? I do

[pnwmom]

64. I'd love to find a clip of that and listen to it again.

I don't remember, but I can well believe it.

[EFerrari]

76. You're right! How threatening must those questions have been

for her to revert like that. Wow.

[LisaL]

88. So what? Are you claiming Condi is being abused now?

[pnwmom]

141. Condi is just one person. What was so weird about the FLDS situation

is that ALL the women were doing it, often speaking the same words and even chiming in in unison.

One or two women like this from the same family, I could believe. But all of these women talking like this is a sign of some kind of disorder. It can't be healthy.

[kestrel91316]

194. They are robotic virtual clones. Highly trained, at that.

[pnwmom]

211. My mother heard someone question a former member about the voices.

Apparently it is something they are specifically trained to do.

I had thought it had to be more than women just copying each other -- it is just too strained a voice to adopt spontaneously.

[question everything]

223. Yes, I was thinking of jackie Kennedy, too

I was shocked the first time I saw a video of her giving a tour of the White House. Somehow I did not associate this elegant, courageous woman with such a whispery voice.

[pnwmom]

241. Me, neither. I didn't pay any attention to her voice when I was a small child.

So when I finally heard it as an adult, it was a shock.

[Stinky The Clown]

9. They are little more than farm bred animals

That is not to disrespect the women. It **IS** to say how they were conceived, how they came into this world, how they were raised, and how they're treated.

[EFerrari]

12. And how the government is STILL treating them. n/t

[Stinky The Clown]

14. My guess is that we're on the same side of this argument, but how would you have them .......

..... dealt with if not having the government get involved?

[EFerrari]

17. We are on the same side. But I have serious problems

with the way it went down.

They lied to the mothers and to the kids about when they were to be separated. That's so not cool.

They held the women in conditions that were substandard. That's not cool.

They basically treated these women just like they were treated in that cult. As a herd and not like individuals with individual rights and responsiblities. The only thing I can think is, they were trying to save money. :shrug:

[kestrel91316]

22. And you know the specific details of how they are being treated - HOW?

It's a shame that the Texas DFPS website has a flaw in that the detailed daily news reports are apparently not archived, but I have been reading the details there daily. The overview/chronology has only the barest skeleton of information on it compared to the lengthy daily updates.

http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/

I for one happen to believe DFPS rather than the protestations of infant torturers.

[EFerrari]

29. Because I read the news?

And you believe CPS because they're never lost a child or left one in an abusive foster situation or been caught in corrupt practices?

Good God. Use the google to search "missing foster children".

[kestrel91316]

16. I'm more concerned about how all the adults treated the children than

I am about how the government is treating the women. They may have been abused themselves in the past, but now THEY are the abusers along with their husbands. Parents have a DUTY to protect their children and if they fail in that duty they endanger the children.

The breathless little girl voices are way beyond creepy.

I know someone who works sometimes as a professional submissive. That's the voice she adopts in session. She recognized it the first time one of the FLDS women opened her mouth.

[EFerrari]

18. It doesn't matter if they are serial killers. They have civil rights.

And by breaching those civil rights, the government just gives some attorney an angle.

[kestrel91316]

23. The women were not in custody. They were free to leave at any time if they

didn't like the food quality or thread count on the sheets or whatever.

They are a pack of liars AFAIAC - a nest of vipers.

[EFerrari]

25. You must be joking.

How are you free to leave if someone is holding your children?

Geezus on a trailer hitch.

[kestrel91316]

197. I'm not kidding. Haven't you been paying attention. The kids

were taken into custody by CFPS. The mothers were given the unusual and extraordinary privilege of coming along in the beginning, and when it became clear the mothers were coaching the kids to lie and getting instructions on how to obstruct the investigation from the men (those MANLY men!), first the cell phones were confiscated and then the mothers were asked to leave.

When CFPS takes kids from a suspected abusive home, normally neither parent is allowed to come with, and the kids are usually taken to an undisclosed location for their safety.

[pnwmom]

32. I think they are largely co-narcissists, with some narcissists among them, too.

A whole community of people with personality disorders. It would be interesting to study -- except that real human children are involved.

[EFerrari]

36. The thing is, if they were co-narcissists, they wouldn't need to

stifle their breathing or all look alike. My god, they've been stripped of their identities.

They would also be siphoning the sense of entitlement, wouldn't they?

It looks like Stockholm to me. While it's true those women were to one degree or another enabling or complicit, their behavior showed little or no sense of privilege. On the contrary.

[pnwmom]

59. A co-narcissist isn't necessarily a narcissist herself. Most probably aren't.

It's more like being a co-dependent of an alcoholic. The co-dependent might not be a drinker at all.

A co-narcissist is someone who has learned to accommodate his or her behavior to the needs of the narcissist. The narcissist has his grandiose beliefs (in this case, aspiring to be the god of his own planet -- sounds plenty grandiose to me). The job of the co-narcissist is to support the narcissist in his feelings of specialness. The ideal co-narcissist never ever disagrees, always reflects well on the narcissist, and bends his or her whole personality to the task of providing ego boosts to the narcissist.


A really good book about these personalities is called "Children of the Self-Absorbed." What is so sad about the children in this FLDS community is that -- unlike most of us who grow up in dysfunctional families -- they have practically no opportunity to experience other positive grown up models -- no relatives who are not in the community, no teachers, outsider friends, etc. They have no chance at all to grasp onto healthier people around them. All they can do is submit or be cast out into a world they're convinced is a much worse place. (And why shouldn't you believe that? When the only world you've known is a kind of evil that calls itself "love"?)

[EFerrari]

66. I 'm not sure than one can support that kind of pathology without

engaging in it, too, at some level and in the same ways.

In any case, it is tragic that these young women (let alone the babies and children) found themselves trapped in that toxic place. I hope things get better for them from here, although, without healthy advocates, that's going to be really, really hard to achieve.

[pnwmom]

134. You could well be right. I think I've heard that a woman, for example,

might be primarily a co-narcissist with respect to her husband -- but a narcissist with respect to how she treats her children. In other words, the husband uses her, she uses the children. All of this is unconscious -- most of these people aren't consciously, deliberately evil. A narcissist can even be acting on the very best of intentions, at a conscious level-- even though the effect on their children, of taking away their own voice, their own free-agency, IS evil.

[pnwmom]

31. Oh dear.

That is a career I'd just as soon have never heard about. Blegh!

[Iris]

21. I wonder how old they are.

The hairstyles and dresses may make them appear older than they really are.

[Iris]

30. "Dr Drew from loveline can tell by a woman's voice when she was first sexually abused"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3166460&mesg_id=31666390


Check out post in this thread


On edit: the thread has been removed because it started out as a criticism of the women's hair and clothing style.

Unfortunately, the post about Dr. Drew and the arrested development of abuse victims is not gone, too.

:(

[pnwmom]

33. I know what you mean. One of them said she was a grandmother,

I remember. Not much gray in her hair, though.

Turned out she was 37.

You know, kind of a Gilmore Girls thing.

:sarcasm:

[LisaL]

40. Most of you are acting as if your regular teenagers never get

pregnant.
There are plenty of 16 year olds who don't live at that compound and who are expecting little bundles of joy. Britney Spears' sister for one.

[EFerrari]

43. You are seriously not understanding this situation or this thread.

[LisaL]

47. Well, why don't you enlighten me. WTF do you think I am supposed

to understand?

[EFerrari]

55. This cult was about so much more than teenager girls getting knocked up.

Anyone can do that.

This cult was about controlling every single fucking aspect of these girl's, women's lives to perpetuate the cult.

There is no comparison.

[LisaL]

68. That's how they live.

For them it's normal. And if you believe this article, those who leave these communities aren't doing so swell.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/16/polygamy.escapes/index.html
Do you seriously think that putting these children in foster care is going to be good for them?
Foster care has a high rate of failure.

"Many child advocates say that even in ordinary circumstances, separation from the mother is the worst-case scenario for the well-being of the child. They say a disproportionate number of foster children end up in jail, psychiatric institutions or homeless shelters.

The national coalition cites an 80 percent failure rate in a foster care, with some studies showing abuse in up to one-third of all foster homes. "It's a pernicious system that churns out the walking wounded," said Wexler. "Some of these kids are likely to be abused again.""

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/story?id=4666294&page=1
And those children have been completely sheltered from the outside world. Based on this I fully expect that if state of TX removes them from their parents and places them in foster care, in future years we will be reading how screwed up they turned out to be.
And frankly, I am still waiting for the state of TX to produce the evidence of abuse most of posters here accept without question.
The state of TX can't even produce the allegedly 16 year old whose phone call started this whole thing.

[pnwmom]

70. I have great fear for the original 16 year old. My deep fear is that she was

discovered while making the call -- leading to her sudden change of heart at the end -- and that she was taken care of, one way or another. They had plenty of time to send her off to a "better place."

Do you know why those who leave the communities like this often don't do well? Because their personalities have been broken. But is the answer to keep them in the closed community, resulting in more and more generations of these broken people -- or to provide them with the resources they need to heal?

I completely agree that we can and should do a better job with the foster care system. And that the evidence is still out in the Texas case. It will take a long, long time before all this is resolved.

[EFerrari]

73. It takes a long time to put a shattered personality back together

if it can be managed. It's like piecing a broken window.

I hope that girl is alive. :(

[LisaL]

74. I don't have the "great fear" for the orginal 16 year old.

Do you realize that a similar call was made, but that time the caller claimed to have been in AZ? Authorities in AZ went and looked but couldn't find the allegedly 16 year old either.
The guy that allegedly 16 year old named as her abusive husband hasn't been in TX in years.

[EFerrari]

77. Why are you so interested in discounting what these girls and women have gone through?

Hmm? Why are you so bent on normalizing what is obvious horrible abuse and trauma?

[LisaL]

82. They deny it.

When they are being interviewed, they are claiming they are not being abused, and their children are not being abused.
They also claim the allegedly abused 16 year old call is a hoax.

[EFerrari]

83. That must be it. n/t

[LisaL]

89. Oh I see. Someone is being abused regardless of what

that someone says. If that someone says she is not being abused, she is being abused regardless.

[EFerrari]

92. lizzy, one of the ways abused women survive is to deny their abuse

because if they knew it in their hearts, they would break down. You don't let yourself break down when you're in danger.

[LisaL]

106. But here is the thing. People who are actually

not abused will say they are not abused, but you wouldn't be able to believe them, would you?
How would you separate those who are not abused and say they are not abused from those who are abused but say they are not abused?

[EFerrari]

112. Because women who are not abused behave and speak differently

than women who have been abused.

When you are abused, it marks your speech, your gestures, your eye contact, the way you react to another body in your proximity. There are many ways to measure how much a woman has been abused. Unfortunately.

[woo me with science]

143. No it doesn't, and please don't make false blanket statements like this.

I agree with you that this is a very disturbing situation in this compound, but throwing out myths about abuse is not helpful. There is no checklist of symptoms of abuse that makes it possible to tell if someone has been abused just by looking at how they talk or walk. This garbage voodoo is the reason that quack therapists find "recovered memories" all the time--"I can tell when they walk in my office!" If anything, the mannerisms you are seeing could reflect the cloistered existence of these people and their lack of exposure to any other way of life and discourse. They are not in and of themselves proof of sexual or physical abuse.

I suspect that there will be plenty of REAL evidence for REAL abuse in this compound, if we let the process take its course. Others are correct to be concerned about civil rights here. I still believe that they will have plenty of evidence to protect these children. You don't NEED to parrot the "survivor" myths in this case.

[EFerrari]

146. Okay.

Eta: And when I say, okay, I mean, okay, you don't understand this.

Because a person who has been subjected to physical and emotional abuse changes in both their physiology and in their psychology.

It's not a matter of wearing anything on your sleeve. It's more a matter that a relatively aware, educated and empathetic person can spot pretty quickly.

If you have a problem with that, I'm sorry. There's nothing "mythical" about it.

[woo me with science]

227. You are wrong.

It is a cultural myth, promulgated by garbage pop psychology and an irresponsible press, that eye contact and mannerisms are specific enough and sufficient to prove abuse. In fact, the cultural myth you are spouting is so pervasive and malignant that the American Psychological Association, the Canadian Psychological Association, and the Royal College of Psychiatrists in Great Britain were all forced to make professional statements specifically to refute it in the 1990's.

EVERY experience we have changes our physiology and psychology, sfexpat. That is very different from the nonsense you are claiming, which is that you can determine that abuse has occurred by simply looking at someone. Thank goodness for all of us that the courts hold a higher standard of evidence.

These children will require a great deal of support as they go through this ordeal. They need a careful investigation into what actually occured in that compound. What they do NOT need is armchair Dr. Frists imagining scenarios about what they endured based on the tilt of their head and the tone of their voice. And the American public does not need these myths reinforced either. There are still too many charlatans out there who also believe they have the special powers you attribute to yourself.

[EFerrari]

232. I am in fact not wrong. And I have not attributed any special powers

to myself but you have, which is interesting.

And, I have to wonder where all this reaction is coming from although I don't have any desire or need to know.

That all of our experiences changes us is not news. That physical and emotional abuse changes us in particular ways that can tip off trained people is also not news. It's not magic, it's training.

That has nothing to do with legal standards at all, in any way, but with threshholds that clinicians are trained to spot.

Please take your reactivity to someone who is willing to deal with it.

[woo me with science]

235. That was stunning.

Seriously. That post was a piece of work. Not only do you completely ignore the substance in the response I gave, you deny attributing special psychological powers to yourself while simultaneously attempting to psychoanalyze me over the internet. Dr. Frist could not have done as well.

Your snarkiness aside, the fact remains that you are ARE wrong. Multiple major professional organizations have slapped down the nonsense you appear to believe so strongly. Unfortunately, their efforts have been lost on you and the mindset you represent.

Good luck to you.

[EFerrari]

238. You know, I have nothing to prove here or to you.

I hope you find the peace you need.

[pnwmom]

254. No, there is no checklist involved.

But anyone who has worked with women in a therapeutic capacity would be struck by the oddities in the behavior in this group, oddities that would not be explained by isolation alone. Speaking in the strained the way they do, for example, is unnatural and uncomfortable. No entire group of women would speak that way unless they had been seriously trained to do so.

Of course we will let the process take its course. That's the way it works. But up till now, we've mostly been hiding our collective heads in the sand, while children and women have suffered. And that was wrong.

[EFerrari]

273. There is no checklist or magic ball or mind reading involved.

I agree. But a sort of competent person with some training could begin to identify indicators that the person they're talking to is in trouble.

There is no someone walks into your office and you invasively know everything about them. But, a reasonably skilled person could put the situation together. Just like we evaluate any other situation.

I guess this topic just upsets people or something. My argument would be, on the contrary, the more aware we can be of ourselves and each other, the more trouble we can head off, stop in its tracks, recover from.

Eta: That's actually not true. Those of us trained to work with abused women get a check list but, we all know that it's just a list. The real people we work with are real people, not a sum of lists.

[pnwmom]

278. And so the question with this FLDS group

is how best to intervene.

I read today that a lawyer is proposing a plan that would allow some of the mothers to stay with their children in apartments, under the supervision of CPS, with restraining orders against the FLDS that would allow the fathers only supervised visitation.

Perhaps there are ways to save at least some of these mother-child relationships, with a great deal of help and support and counseling. It would mean doing a lot of things differently, though, than any state is accustomed to doing.

[EFerrari]

282. If I were king of the hill, I'd break the kids' care down into

their developmental stages. Their moms will follow.

The men, on the other hand, would be really hard to reach. If it's even possible. :(

[pnwmom]

284. A psychiatrist who testified said that the authoritarian culture there

had resulted in underdeveloped brains, with 15 year olds who had the emotional capacity of 6 year olds.

If that is the case, I wonder if there is a critical period for reaching these women? Under age 25? 30?

[EFerrari]

289. Don't you think most of them are under thirty?

I was thinking that for most of those girls, the healthiest bond they probably had was with their children and now that's gone, too.

[pnwmom]

130. I think it is quite possible that they are covering up for abuse that has

occurred to their children.

[EFerrari]

133. Someone whose boundaries have been destroyed in that way

would identify with both the perp and with the victims. They may well be trying to cover up but the motive is more likely something like "so we can go back to our normal life" than "so we won't go to jail".

I've studied boundaries for a long time. If you take someone's boundaries away or mash them up, it's a lot like smashing a goldfish's bowl. There is nothing that makes good sense, after that. Even defensive reactions are sort of removed from the real world stuff like "we're all going to jail". The aim is more likely to be, "can we please go back to that place were I was coping." Imho.

[pnwmom]

242. So basically they're desperately trying to stay in the Land of Denial.

Nothing is wrong here. Everything is fine. And we're happy, happy, happy.

And that makes perfect sense, since the essence of narcissism is denying the emptiness within by erecting this grandiose facade.

[pnwmom]

126. The 6 women who went into safe houses apparently aren't denying it.

And there is also the evidence of the young pregnant girls themselves, in addition to papers that the state tried to put into evidence today, containing names and ages of girls who had been married.

The sect is claiming a nonexistent church-penitent privilege to keep its records out of the court. This theory didn't stop the authorities in the Catholic abuse cases, and it shouldn't stop them here.

[EFerrari]

129. What the h is a "church penitent privilege"?

Is that like a confessor / sinner privilege?

[pnwmom]

131. It's a term I haven't heard before either. I think they're implying something

like that. Actually, I'm not sure the first word was "church" but I remember the second word was "penitent."

But I certainly don't see how it would apply in the case of a community's marriage and birth records.

[Occulus]

237. I think it means they think they get something special in law for

claiming they're a church, above and beyond tax status.

Now where could they possibly have gotten that idea? :think:

[kestrel91316]

200. How is it that the TWENTY OR THIRTY pregnant teens they found

(we are talking under 16 years old here) are not the victims of rape? Explain that one.

Then explain why they should not be removed from the environment where they were raped, along with every other child in there.

[woo me with science]

245. CNN is reporting five. nt

[kestrel91316]

257. IIRC, 18 were removed immediately from the compound. Those were

presumably the ones obviously both pregnant and underage.

There is at least one THIRTEEN-YR-OLD with babe in arms. And at least one FOURTEEN-YERA-OLD with same.

[pnwmom]

110. Carolyn Jessop, Merril's former wife, has said all along that she thought

they got the whispered name wrong, and that it was another Barlow with a different first name.

As far as the call from Arizona, I can easily imagine that being real. Suppose a teen in Arizona -- someone very much like Carolyn or Flora Jessop -- had been waiting for her chance to escape. And then she heard about what happened in Texas, and all due to a phone call. Wouldn't it be logical for her to think that maybe she also could escape if she placed a phone call?

[LisaL]

127. I hear that investigators think the same person might have

made both calls.

[pnwmom]

188. Police investigators? Or investigators for the ranch?

[LisaL]

196. I am not aware that the ranch has any investigators.

[pnwmom]

210. One of the CPS people today testified that when the police came

to the ranch, the men there first said there were "no Sarah's" at the ranch. But when the police started looking, they found 5 teenage girls who called themselves Sarah. And that these girls seemed to know who Sarah Jessop Barlow was, but said they didn't know where she was.

There were several days between the girl's phone calls and when the police finally went to the ranch. Plenty of time for the sect to move her somewhere else.

[LisaL]

212. What do you think about this?

"DENVER -- A Colorado Springs woman was arrested on charges of false reporting to authorities and is being investigated for her alleged involvement in the call that tipped authorities off to possible abuse at a Texas polygamist compound."
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/15917112/detail.html

[pnwmom]

214. Who knows? But it's apparently related to something in February.

"This arrest stemmed from an incident that occurred in Colorado Springs in February of this year," Colorado Springs Police said in a statement. "The Texas Rangers were in Colorado Springs yesterday as part of their investigation involving the compound in Texas. They left and have not filed any charges on Rozita Swinton as of this time. "

Perhaps this woman was involved in a copycat call after the call in Texas.

[LisaL]

216. And what exactly would be Texas rangers doing there?

I am pretty sure we will find out more.

[pnwmom]

217. I'm sure we will, eventually.

As to what the Texas Rangers are doing there, who knows? There are branches of the community in Colorado -- maybe the Rangers had gotten a tip that Sarah was being hidden there. Or -- maybe this other girl has been making copycat calls, or maybe she was the original caller.

None of this will matter to the custody issues, because CPS is required to investigate even anonymous accusations, and they obtained search warrants based on a reasonable belief that the girl was real.

But it could make a difference if there are criminal charges.

[LisaL]

221. I hope we really find out it all, so we could stop worrying

about poor pregnant Sarah if in fact she doesn't exist.

[kestrel91316]

258. Lizzy, dear, you need to do more homework:

http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/

If you read the timeline perhaps it will help you refrain from making yourself look any more like a dolt than you already have.

[LisaL]

288. The only dolt here is you.

The timeline makes sense.

"A former polygamist sect member says a Colorado Springs woman who called her posing as a young abused girl could be the same person whose complaints led to a massive child-protection raid in West Texas.

Flora Jessop, a former Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints member, said she first received a call from a woman, since identified as Rozita Swinton of Colorado Springs, claiming to be an abuse victim named Sarah on March 30.

Authorities say a girl with the same name called a San Angelo, Texas, hotline March 29, claiming she was 16 and "spiritually married" to a man who would "beat and hurt her" whenever he became angry."




http://www.denverpost.com/healthcare/ci_8971925

Jessop received call on March 30th. The raid was on April 4th. The phone call was not publicized until the raid.

[LisaL]

220. More information.

"According to the city's release, The Texas Rangers were in Colorado Springs as part of their investigation involving the compound in Texas. The Colorado Springs Police Department says it cannot discuss the Texas case. However, a TV station in Arizona is reporting Swinton made false calls to the Texas authorities, sparking the raid at the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) compound."



http://www.9news.com/news/top-article.aspx?storyid=90138

[pnwmom]

234. More rumors, you mean. Too bad they didn't at least name the TV station

or provide a link.

[kestrel91316]

199. I personally think she went into that incinerator/crematory in the temple.

[LisaL]

208. So, now you are accusing them of murder?

[Iris]

248. It's just someone's opinion.

I didn't see any evidence that the poster went down to TX to file some kind of complaint.

Jeez. I want to say ligthen up but that sounds trite. Why do you think it is so wrong for an investigation into what is going on there? Maybe nothing is wrong, but should the authorities just go with that thought and possibly allow abusive practices to continue?

[kestrel91316]

198. Why are you supporting child rapists and infant torturers?

Because that's EXACTLY what these people are. No child should ever have to live in that kind of environment. NOT FOR FIVE MINUTES.

[Iris]

247. Yes. I suppose you could say the same about genital mutilation.

But in this society, people under the age of 18 have certain rights.

[pnwmom]

67. Our regular teenagers aren't subject to arranged marriages on the spur of

the moment to men who are often decades older.

We're not talking about girls and boys "getting it on." We're talking about young girls who are the victims of ritual sex abuse by older men.

[Iris]

246. Well, yes, but most of their parents are probably disappointed.

Rather than having encouraged the situation. Or forced it upon them as a parental expectation.

[EFerrari]

38. Yup. And most of their faces were unlined.

They looked like high school kids playing dress up. :(

[nashville_brook]

24. this is a great question -- you can't have patriarchy where women speak freely.

this is the sound of complete patriarchal subjugation. women's voices have been snuffed out.

i'm sure that to the men in this cult, women's voices are offensive. that's what they prolly tell the women. that God is offended by a strong woman's voice. women are shamed into wispy, non-existent vocalizations. to speak loud would be an offense to God, because it threatens the patriarchal order.

i don't find it hard to imagine that if there's such a thing as an FLDS etiquette book for women, it's chock full of limitations on when a woman is allowed to speak. how could it not be verboten for a woman to speak before her husband in conversation -- gasp -- to disagree? women are probably allowed to talk to other women, but not in a voice God would find offensive. she can probably speak to husband in private, but i bet she'd be sanctioned heavily for talking to another man. i'd be surprised if women permitted to partake of co-ed conversation. i'd be surprised if women were allowed to speak in church.

in reality, women's voices do indeed threaten the patriarchal order. cults like this literally have to sanction women's power of speech in order to survive.

[EFerrari]

53. You remind me of Tilley Olson's book, "The World Cracked Open".

I haven't thought of that in many years.

She said, roughly, if women spoke their truth, the world would crack open.

You're so right.

[nashville_brook]

124. this issue has me getting out my old feminism textbooks -- mary daly, luce irigaray

i haven't thought about these ideas, so pointedly, in years. everyday i get a whiff, but this story really brings it all home.

[jberryhill]

213. Bingo....

These are women who do not even know how to speak assertively.

[slackmaster]

34. Yes, I noticed that too

They sound, I'm not sure, perhaps subservient?

[SharonAnn]

281. Submissive. They sound submissive.

[LisaL]

39. Yes, you've made it blatantly clear you are struck by the way

they dress and talk. But just because they are a low talkers, or have their hair in braids, it doesn't seem like a good enough reason to me to take all their children away.

[EFerrari]

42. No matter how they look or sound, they all are entitled to due process.

The problem is, when you are in the shape those women are, you can't advocate for yourself and it doesn't look like they have anyone credible to advocate for them.

[LisaL]

45. They seem to have been talking well enough on LKL.

I don't know what shape you think they are in-they seem healthy enough to me.

[EFerrari]

48. That's scary. They were obviously traumatized. They are obviously

unable to speak as grounded adults to strangers. They are wearing the uniform of their semi imprisonment. They have obviously surrendered any sense of individuality.

But they seemed fine to you?

[LisaL]

49. They are wearing basically the same clothes Amish are

wearing around here. I guess I never figured out that means they need rescuing.

[EFerrari]

51. The Amish live in a different culture. That culture is supportive

not abusive as this cult was. It's not the same thing at all.

[LisaL]

52. Supportive of what? I've read stories about sexual abuse

allegations among Amish that make my blood curl.

[EFerrari]

54. For Chrissake. The Amish culture is not organized around pedophilia.

Your comparison is both ridiculous AND disgusting.

[LisaL]

56. I haven't seen any evidence produced by the state of TX that

would lead me to believe that this sect was organized around pedophilia.
By the way, why don't you read about the Amish before sprouting off how supportive they are.
Does this claim sound familiar?

"Community of Submission
Irene Garrett left the Amish community to marry an outsider and has written several books on Amish life. Sadly, Garrett says, Mary's plight is not an isolated case.


"Overall in an Amish community, women are very quiet, they're very submissive," Garrett said." "


http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2365919&page=1

[EFerrari]

57. You're mistaking a cultural difference for abuse.

And by now, I'm not surprised.

[LisaL]

58. You've absolutely lost me, because your comment makes no

sense. Did you read the article in the link provided?

[EFerrari]

62. Trade you.

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/troufs/anth4616/video/Amish.html#abstract

[Occulus]

236. Sf, I have to ask you this:

Have you completely dismissed the possibility that their mode of speech, dress, hairstyles, etc., when taken with their evasive responses to questions, might indicate a deliberate attempt to obfuscate issues critical to secular authorities?

I ask because I think see something very different coming from them than you do. I see intent to deceive, and to me it's plain as day.

[EFerrari]

240. I have no doubt that at some level, these people are trying to CYA.

I just have a big question in my mind about what that means to them.

Imho, it may mean, "please can we go back home" much more than "I knew I did wrong and I want to keep my @ss out of jail".

And not so much because I excuse those women in any way but more because it just seems to me that they were victims first. I don't know if that makes any sense. They were trapped first, abused first and then made complicit. (And that means, at some point, what they went through made them "shut down" enough to go along with what came after. :(

What a horrible situation. :(

[Beaverhausen]

65. have you seen any of the interviews with the women who managed to escape?

please- educate yourself

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/16/polygamy.escapes/index.html#cnnSTCText

[EFerrari]

69. Heartbreaking. But also, hopeful that there are good people out there

who are working this street.

[LisaL]

71. I've posted the same link before you did.

Please.

[Beaverhausen]

75. so why are you saying there is no evidence of abuse?

please yourself.

Seriously, there is plenty of evidence out there regarding what the members of this sect practice, and none of it is any good.

[LisaL]

78. I haven't seen any evidence about this particular sect.

Authorities went in because an allegedly 16 year old made a call about being allegedly abused. Authorities have not produced that 16 year old, and the guy named as husband have not been to TX in years. Furthermore, apparently somebody made a similar call, but this time the caller claimed she was in AZ. Again authorities in AZ didn't locate any abused 16 year old.
Pardon me if I have questions about that whole story of a 16 year old being abused.

[EFerrari]

79. You watched that parade of abused women that showed their abuse

in their every gesture and saw nothing?

I sincerely hope you're not a social worker.

[LisaL]

84. No I am not a social worker.

They say they are not being abused.
I don't understand how they showed their abuse in their every gesture.
Are you a social worker?

[EFerrari]

90. They couldn't make eye contact. They weren't breathing deeply enough

to produce their own voices. Their faces were mostly expressionless and their physical gestures were circumscribed. They all looked alike because their own identity has been taken away from them.

They had no family or friends around them, they have been isolated.

They acted as if they were helpless to act on their own or to help their children. Did you notice none of them said anything about contacting their congressional representative or anyone that you or I would think of?

What does all of that tell you?

[LisaL]

94. It tells me nothing. I don't make good eye contact.

I probably'd be scared stiff if I was on TV giving an interview.
And I am not in the habit of contacting my congressional representative either.

[EFerrari]

95. Okay.

[XemaSab]

224. You said they had no family and friends

I think they were surrounded by their family and friends, but they live in a culture where people don't seem encouraged to openly support one another. :(

[EFerrari]

233. You're right.

:(

[Beaverhausen]

80. they are the same sect

do you honestly think what goes on in their compounds in Colorado City and elsewhere doesn't also happen at this Texas location?

[musette_sf]

93. this ought to answer some of your questions:

Anderson Cooper had one of the polyg-bot "wives" on the other night... she was avoiding actual questions and just ranting on and on about how her FREEDOM was being abused and her RIGHTS were being abused, blah blah blah.

his next guest was, via telephone, Carolyn Jessup, a woman who escaped from the cult. she said that she recognized immediately the voice of that polyg-bot "wife" who had just been on, and that she was one of her former "sister wives". she said, "She's... the one who told on me when I was trying to escape. So, in the land of the free and the home of the brave, why is it that she felt so urgent to go to Merril in the middle of the night and tell him that I had my children up, and I was leaving? And I nearly didn't make it out because she made that phone call. And, so, she believes in freedom. Where's my rights as a mother to take my children and flee if I believe we are at risk? You know, where are my rights? Because she didn't -- she didn't allow me any rights, but now she's demanding rights. And it's obvious that her daughter, who she is talking about was a 10-month-old baby -- and, by the way, is not 18 -- she is barely 18 -- she was probably impregnated when she was 16."

[LisaL]

96. Barely 18 is 18.

I saw that interview.
The age of consent in TX is 16. So if someone is impregnated when they are 16, that would not be a crime under TX law.

[musette_sf]

98. "she was probably impregnated when she was 16."

your hearing and reading skills need work.

ps, you added the "The age of consent in TX is 16. So if someone is impregnated when they are 16, that would not be a crime under TX law" part AFTER my post. so your backpedaling skills seem to be working okay.

[LisaL]

99. 16 is the age of consent in the state of TX.

Which to me seems to mean impregnating someone who is 16 is not a crime.

[musette_sf]

101. which part of "consent"

do you not understand?

here, i'll help you out:

http://incestabuse.about.com/cs/daterape/a/consent.htm

"If you did not consent, then a crime has been committed"

[EFerrari]

103. But the law isn't the point, is it?

The care and wellbeing of these girls / women is.

Are you now arguing that you can impregnated a girl of 16 without care to her wellbeing?

[LisaL]

104. If you are concerned about well being of these women, how

can you support their children being taken away by the state?
If my child was taken away I would be scared out of my mind.
I couldn't possibly trust the state to take care of my child.

[EFerrari]

107. You seem not to have read my posts to this thread

where I express my concern for how all of this came down, lizzy.

I couldn't trust the state with my children, either. No way. I still remember those reports of all those foster children "lost" in Florida. And in other places. Nope, I couldn't do that.

[musette_sf]

108. again, which part of "consent"

do you not get?

"If you did not consent, then a crime has been committed"

"Ignorance of the law is not a defense. Silence is not consent."

[LisaL]

111. You have to have someone saying they haven't consented.

At least.

[musette_sf]

114. and so to you

coercion = "consent"?

please don't even pretend for a second that you really believe that no coercion was involved at Eldorado.

[LisaL]

115. I don't know what is involved, but I am not going to run around

claiming somebody's been raped if that somebody isn't even alleging that she was.

[musette_sf]

116. for someone who doesn't "know what is involved"

you sure have a lot to say about it.

[LisaL]

118. Unless you were there, you have no clue as to what involved

either, but you sure got a lot to say about it.

[musette_sf]

120. i'm not the one claiming that

"i don't know what is involved".

i guess you missed the whole Warren Jeffs trial.

i'm quoting interviews with the polyg-bot welfare queens, i'm quoting a former member of the cult.

what have you got to say?

nothing except "i don't know what is involved"

self serving disingenuous non-logical argument seems to be all you have to offer.

[EFerrari]

121. That's not true.

Abuse is obvious a lot of the time, as in this case, if you are willing to simply see what you are looking at.

None of us know what happened in that compound but it's not rocket science to watch those women and see that they have been traumatized.

[pnwmom]

239. These are parents who allowed the felon, Jeffs, to arrange "spiritual marriages"

for their teenage daughters, whether the girls were willing or not.

These are parents who willingly allowed their pre-school age children to be sent to live in Texas without them.

These are parents who stay with Jeffs even when their husbands and/or sons are banished from the community, and allow themselves to be assigned to new families.

These are not normal parents.

If you had to pick either the State of Texas, or Warren Jeffs, to run you and your children's lives, are you so sure you'd pick Warren Jeffs? Because that's the choice these parents are making. Every single day.

[pnwmom]

229. There is a 16 year old girl reported to have four children already.

And a social worker testified today that there were "numerous" girls who may have had babies as young as age 13.

Where are you drawing the line?

http://www.kcbd.com/Global/story.asp?S=8191061

[niyad]

280. actually, 17 is the age of consent. and, in most states, if there is more than

a three-year age difference between the minor female and the adult male, statuatory rape charges can be filed.

you know, it is absolutely amazing to me how you are into denying that anything sick, twisted or downright creepy goes on in the polygamy groups. why, exactly, ARE you so vehement in defending them?

[pnwmom]

139. You're assuming this is a first pregnancy. n/t

[LisaL]

144. She has one child.

[musette_sf]

164. and you know HOW

that Kathleen Jessup's daughter has only one child?

[LisaL]

195. I saw her interviewed on TV.

Her daughter has one child.

[fed_up_mother]

145. A sixteen year old girl can't consent to a much older man

That's statutory rape. It's just not the same thing as two high school kids getting it on in the backseat of the car.

Furthermore, I don't think the law allows parents to consent to statutory rape - not from other (unrelated) cases I've seen in the news.

[LisaL]

149. Do you understand what age of consent means?

It's not statutory rape if the girl is above the legal age of consent, whether you believe she can consent or not.

[fed_up_mother]

156. Texas age of consent is seventeen, not sixteen

Although there's a three years age difference rule to allow for teens having sex without getting prosecuted.

[LisaL]

173. You can get married at 16 with parental consent.

http://www.dallascounty.org/department/countyclerk/marriage-license.html
Which might or might not apply here depending on whether the marriages were legal or "spiritual."

[fed_up_mother]

177. Yes, that is my point

If they're not really married, it may just qualify as statutory rape, in which case, the state will probably have a pretty strong case.

Can I hand over my twelve year old to my forty year old friend? My thirteen year old? My fifteen year old? My sixteen year old?

Somehow, I doubt it.

[musette_sf]

178. so parental consent

overrides the consent of the bride?

and the "marriages" cannot be legal if the man has a living wife from whom he is not divorced.

it's that research thing again. try looking up "bigamy".

[fed_up_mother]

189. My point is that if it's statutory rape

it doesn't matter if the girl "consented." And I don't think parents can give that kind of consent, even if they can give consent to legal marriage (assuming the girl consents.) Of course, it's a sham marriage if he's already married!

[LisaL]

209. If Texas has evidence of such things, then they could remove and

arrest these men.
Warren Jeffs was prosecuted and convicted.
I don't see as to why the same thing can not be done here if Texas has evidence of statutory rapes taking place.

[pnwmom]

228. First things first. I assume they will be prosecuting some of the men,

if the search warrants hold up.

But the first thing to do is simply to sort out who the parents are of each child, and how old the children are. And the sect is prolonging the whole process by their lack of cooperation.

[pnwmom]

225. They most likely were not legal marriages. n/t

[pnwmom]

125. This particular sect is run by Merril Jessop, who is the ex-husband

of Carolyn Jessop, one of the former members who has spoken out.

Are you saying that you think she's a liar?

With regard to criminal prosecutions, it could be problematical if the 16 year old is not found. That doesn't mean she doesn't exist however. On the other hand, her existence won't matter with regard to custody issues. The CPS had a legal obligation to investigate once they had the phone call. And once they entered the compound, and immediately found evidence of child abuse -- young girls in forced marriages who were pregnant -- they had a further obligation to act.

The standard of proof, by the way, isn't the same as it is for criminal investigations. It's based on the "preponderance of the evidence."

[LisaL]

132. From everything I've read, I believe placing these children

in foster care will only screw them up.
I don't think the state of TX will be able to deal well with the placement of so many children.
Do tell me, what do you think will happen to those kids in foster care?

[musette_sf]

135. i have a good idea what WON'T happen

just for starters:

* teenage boys won't be (at best) abandoned on the side of the road. (looking forward to hearing more about the mysterious "Babyland" cemetery, and the crematorium on the compound. there is a lot more to the very skewed girl:boy ratio than meets the eye. not to mention what seems to be a complete lack of older, crone-age women on the compound.)

* boys and girls won't be left with only a rudimentary education and no life skills for the real world - they will have a chance to get a full K-12 education, and even college if they are so qualified and if they so desire.

* teenage girls won't be coerced into being raped by old men.

* the kids won't have to marry family members, and will be able to meet and marry people of their own choice and volition, and vastly improve their inbred gene pool when they bear children as adults, at a time and place of their own choice and volition.
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2005-12-29/news/forbidden-fruit/

for more, please refer to Cerridwen's excellent post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3163212&mesg_id=3163212

[LisaL]

150. The state already took a bunch of those teenage boys

and put them into the ranch for troulbed kids.
Yep, they will have a swell time there.
And by the way, what exactly does state do with foster kids after they turn 18?

[musette_sf]

152. no, they are not at "the ranch

for troubled kids".

they are at a licensed foster care facility.

if you spent half the time reading and researching that you spend posting gossip and innuendo that only you seem to be privy to, you'd be better off.

[LisaL]

153. WTF are you calling rumors?

It's been reported the boys were taken to the ranch for troubled kids.
I can provide many links if you'd like.
Here is one.
"The group is being housed together at the ranch, where they are receiving food, shelter, clothes and medical needs if necessary. Cal Farley's Ranch, is a self contained town with its own medical facilities and school system. The children at the ranch are considered troubled kids typically sent to the facility by their parents. According to Adams, the average stay is two years, but the boy's saty at the ranh is temporary."


http://www.kfdatv.com/Global/story.asp?S=8172151

[LisaL]

155. And here is another.

"More than two dozen teenage boys taken from the polygamist sect have been shipped 400 miles away to a ranch for troubled boys and girls, the state confirmed to ABC News Tuesday."




http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/Story?id=4654643&page=1

[musette_sf]

158. please apply some of your

scattershot research to Cal Farley's Ranch.

[musette_sf]

157. so are you alleging

that this is some kind of scandal-ridden "boot camp"?

once again, your research skills are wanting.

please cite an instance of malfeasance at Cal Farley's. it's been around for decades. it's actually one of the *good* places.

and the polyg boys ARE troubled boys. i'd be troubled if i were worried about my @ss being dumped on the side of the road any day, for no reason except that i'm competition for the old rapists.

[LisaL]

162. I am not alleging anything. I am stating a fact. The boys

were send to a ranch for troubled kids. Which you falsely claimed wasn't true.

[musette_sf]

170. i initially went by my initial research

a skill which you need practice in.

i then researched Cal Farley's Ranch. it looks to be on the up and up. no scandals, and it's been around for decades.

try that research thing sometime.

[LisaL]

179. It's a ranch for troubled boys and girls.

Which you falsely claimed wasn't true.

[musette_sf]

181. once again

i went by the research i had.

i then did more research.

try it sometime, you might learn something.

[LisaL]

191. At least they abolished corporal punishment in the mid 1990.

http://www.amarillo.com/stories/010498/019-2049.001.shtml
Yey.

[musette_sf]

192. your research skills are improving

but that news article isn't exactly about a corporal punishment scandal. it's about a change in policy due to changing times.

my grammar school had corporal punishment. times change.

and of course, there is NO corporal punishment in the FLDS compounds.

right?

[pnwmom]

255. That puts them ahead of the YFZ ranch then.

Carolyn Jessop has described how her husband Merill, the leader there, would punish her children in order to punish and control HER.

[pnwmom]

136. lizzy, I agree with you that this is a nightmare of a situation,

a horrible morass that has no good or easy answers. And that we have no idea yet what evidence there will be.

I am happy for the 6 women who seem to have gotten out -- who might have been waiting for just such a chance. As to the rest, it's too early to know.

The foster care system certainly has a sorry record. But there is one thing that any child placed in the foster care system has that the sect does not -- and that is access to outsiders who might give the child a CHANCE, just a chance, to make a real connection. Whether that outsider is a special teacher, a coach, a parent of a friend, or even a library full of books with authors who give hope -- hope for a better life, hope that helps a child to go on.

The children at the YFZ ranch had none of this. Just a very dysfunctional system organized around the narcissistic needs of the males in charge -- the future gods of their own planets. A system in which the girls were trained to be completely subservient and the boys were, in increasing numbers, kicked out in early adolescence. (Why do you think there were so many more girls in the group than boys? The boys had already been culled out.)

[LisaL]

151. More girls then boys could simply be genetic.

Some people have only daughters.

[musette_sf]

159. yeah, just like India and China

where "some people" have only sons.

[LisaL]

165. Nothing like making horrible allegations without a shred of proof,

I suppose. What exactly are you insinuating here?

[musette_sf]

168. "Babyland"

look it up.

[pnwmom]

172. Girl babies are commonly aborted in China and India, after ultrasounds

determine gender. This isn't new news.

Sadly, my daughter has a friend from India who lives in California who was being pressured by her husband's relatives to abort, once they knew it would "only" be a girl. I never found out what happened.

[pnwmom]

169. No, statistically that's impossible in this case. The numbers are much

too skewed, for a large sample like this.

[LisaL]

176. A lot of these people are probably related, so you normal

statistics might not apply.
By the way, what exactly is the ratio of boys to girls, since you claim it can not be explained by statistics?

[pnwmom]

185. I'll look for the numbers again, but I only saw them once. I only know

it wasn't even close to 50/50.

But the situation of the "lost boys" has been covered everywhere. All over the west, there are boys who are being dumped from their polygamous communities into nearby cities.

Some of the situation at the Ranch, however, might be explained by another factor. When they set the ranch up, according to Carolyn Jessop, they selected a number of tractable children (all under the age of 6) to move to the Ranch while leaving the parents behind in Arizona/Utah. I'm guessing there were a lot of girls in this group.

[musette_sf]

190. that sure sounds like "The Handmaid's Tale"

the children have to be tractable, in order to impose oppression and abuse on them. they have to have known nothing else.

[pnwmom]

193. I've been thinking about that book a lot, too.

Maybe I'll reread it.

:shrug:

[fed_up_mother]

182. but in a group this large, it should be roughly fifty/fifty

[LisaL]

183. Why don't someone tell what it is?

Before making all these claims.

[kestrel91316]

259. Nope. Oh, and BTW, what university level biology and genetics

classes have you taken (and passed, lol) that allows you to make this amazing claim?

Perhaps you have published your groundbreaking, revolutionary work in Science or Nature. Do provide us with a link!!!!

[Marrah_G]

264. You do realize the boys are kicked out as young teens right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Boys_of_Polygamy

Please read this.

[EFerrari]

137. The foster care system in this country is an obscenity

I couldn't agree more. But they probably have a better chance even there.

[pnwmom]

97. The Amish give their adolescents their "running around years."

They purposely give them a period of time as teens when they are free to experiment with living the ways of outsiders, but still may return to the Amish way. The kids form gangs who hang around together and do non-Amish things. When they are ready to join the community as adults again, they do.

The FLDS, on the other hand, is organized around the concept of very early marriages that tie the young girls to the sect through their babies. That seems like a very significant difference to me.

I agree with you, however, that it is wrong to ignore child abuse anywhere, among the FLDS, among the Amish, or in any of our communities.

[LisaL]

102. Even your normal teenager if left on his or her own would not make

it. What chance do the Amish have?
Can they go to college? How are they gonna adjust to outside world, having been raised in such a different way?
Where would they get the money to support themselves?
I disagree with that practice.

[pnwmom]

142. The Amish teens are not left on their own. They're still living with their families,

but are allowed to indulge themselves in behaviors that committed adult members of the community are not supposed to engage in.

[LisaL]

148. Amish in the city. They do move away from their homes.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/TV/01/19/tv.amishinthecity.ap/

[musette_sf]

154. "They do move away from their homes"

...when UPN is footing the bill.

and of course, the CNN Showbiz pages would be the most accurate source on what Amish teens do on their "running around" year.

once again, your reading skills seem to need improvement. not to mention your research skills.

your grasping at straws skills are doing quite well, though.

[pnwmom]

161. So? That's just some of them. n/t

[kestrel91316]

202. Amish have ABUNDANT exposure to the world of the English.

If you don't understand what I mean by English, BTW, you have no business even commenting on the Amish.

They are allowed "rumspringa". They join the church of their own free will as adults. They marry the person of their choice and they do so of their own free will. Amish themselves to not go in for higher education, it's too "worldly", but those who don't join up generally become Mennonite and many of them go on to universities. A notable example of this is John Hostetler, who wrote "Amish Society", which is the authoritative scholarly text on the Amish.

I strongly suggest you read it before making any more tasteless, moronic comparisons of the Amish to the FLDS. The ONLY thing they have in common is the long dresses.

[LisaL]

206. Oh I don't know. Just dresses?

How about inbreeding?
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/genetics/2005-06-27-amish-genetics_x.htm

[kestrel91316]

260. Genetic diseases are seen in many relatively insular religious communities.

There is a difference in having the occasional dwarf, and having the vast majority of all fumarase deficiency cases ever seen in the world.

Your ignorance is showing again.

[pnwmom]

85. I grew up near Amish country. The Amish women don't sound like that

when they're talking to outsiders.

They're just as capable of carrying on a conversation as I am.

[LisaL]

86. These women are capable of having a conversation.

They went on TV and gave an interview, and described how their children were taken away.

[pnwmom]

100. The women I saw appeared to be unable to speak in normal tones,

and unable to answer simple, direct questions.

They just kept repeating the same few thoughts, often expressed in exactly the same words. I saw three sets of women speak at various times and I was struck by how uniform they were in their manner and voice.

But I didn't see LKL. Maybe those women were different.

[pnwmom]

81. I have said nothing about the way they dress, not anywhere.

I couldn't care less about their clothing or their hairstyles.

But I do think these women are robotic in their affect and in their voices, and that that tells us something about them psychologically. Also, I told you yesterday that I was concerned about the description of baby-breaking, which you dismissed by saying that the procedure didn't make any sense. (Which doesn't mean they don't believe in it.)

The baby-breaking, if it is prevalent and the mothers observed it, would be a reason to lose custody. So would forcing young girls into early marriage.

Clothing and hairstyles are irrelevant.

[LisaL]

91. Yea, if the state had any evidence of baby waterboarding,

that certainly would be a reason to take the child away.
By the way state isn't even alleging anything of the sort.

[Beaverhausen]

105. and you know that how?

are you privy to all court documents in this case?

[LisaL]

109. Nope. But usually someone who makes a claim has to provide

evidence of that claim, considering you can't prove the negative.
It's like asking someone when they stopped beating their wife.

[Beaverhausen]

113. but you don't know what evidence the state has, do you?

They have been investigating this group for over 4 years. You have no idea what they have on them.

[LisaL]

117. No, I don't, and neither do you.

I am all for seeing that evidence, rather than accepting rumors as facts.

[Beaverhausen]

119. oh yeah- you are so open-minded about this, aren't you?

:rofl:

[musette_sf]

123. completely

"i don't know what is involved"

:rofl:

[pnwmom]

166. Unfortunately, most people don't abuse their children with videotape running.

It sure would make the cases easier to prove.

In the case of Ms. Jessop, she gave her testimony in a court of law -- so did her husband, the leader of the YZF ranch. And her testimony, not his, was accepted.

[pnwmom]

122. We don't know yet what the state is alleging or what the evidence will be.

What we know from the state is that they received a phone call from a girl who said she was 16 and that they have been working with an informant for years who was a former member. The state has not shared yet what evidence they have. It would be premature for them to do that -- and it would also violate the confidentiality of the children. Most of these cases are not tried publicly.

It will be interesting to see what the state learns, if anything, from the 6 women who decided to go to the safe house instead of returning to the ranch. About 51 or 52 returned, so 10% of the women of older children decided not to return. That's a significant percentage, really.

[LisaL]

128. I've heard other women claiming that even those six are now

back at the ranch.

[pnwmom]

138. I don't have any particular reason to believe them.

Their answers are generally so evasive, they're not particularly credible to me.

[musette_sf]

147. which "other women"?

you mean the polyg-bot "wives" at the compound?

yeah, now that would be a truthful, honest, uncensored, uncoerced claim.

i'm no great lover of the great state of Texas, having spent many years there, but somehow i believe the Dept of Family and Protective Services more than i believe these brainwashed women who will say anything to curry favor with the so-called "husband":

http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/About/News/2008/2008-04-15_news.asp

[EFerrari]

163. I only believe the DFPS a lick more because the whole state government

is notoriously corrupt.

We all need to light a candle for those kids. Or, ignite the object of your secular choice. :(

[musette_sf]

167. i feel for the kids

they are the true victims in all this.

but they WILL be better off as a result of this.

(btw, what's with the :( for "secular"? is "secular" bad? surely on DU "secular" isn't bad!)

[EFerrari]

171. Oh, no!

I didn't mean secular was :(

I meant those kids' situation was :(. Just ask the Pope about me. :rofl:

Last summer, I edited a compilation of foster kid survivor stories. And, wonder, who didn't make it to write one.

[musette_sf]

174. i'm a secular Buddhist Religious Scientist humanist

(and lapsed RCC) and i will indeed light a candle for the children.

the Pope doesn't want to be asked about me either :rofl:

[EFerrari]

180. Why make trouble?

:rofl:

[musette_sf]

184. because i want HIS SHOES

the Pope wears Prada!

http://www.dw-world.de/image/0,,1553351_1,00.jpg

[EFerrari]

186. The last pair of Doc Martins I bought are EXACTLY that color.

[musette_sf]

187. red shoes rock

don't they?

and yes, "The Red Shoes" is one of my favorite myths, and movies too.

[kestrel91316]

204. Salt Lake Tribune, IIRC, reported today that TWENTY TO THIRTY

underage pregnant girls are in custody. They are legally rape victims whether they went begging for sex or were held down and forced to submit. There is no legal sex with a girl under 16 in Texas.

I'd venture a guess that they constitute evidence of systemic sexual abuse and FAILURE OF THE PARENTS'S DUTY TO PROTECT FROM ABUSE sufficient to permanently terminate parental rights. One can only hope.

[pnwmom]

219. Yes. This is the opposite of the usual case: girls sneaking around

behind their parents backs.

This was a case of parents handing their girls over for ritual sex abuse. Only they call it "spiritual marriage."

[kestrel91316]

203. You don't know that. The medical records and documents

detailing abuse are SO CONFIDENTIAL, they are not even being emailed to the attorneys, but rather hand-delivered.

Do your homework, little girl:
http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/About/News/2008/2008-04-09_chronology.asp
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=flds+abuse
Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer
Escape by Carolyn Jessup
There's another book by a man who left FLDS, I forget the title and his last name (starts with B?)

[LisaL]

207. Little girl?

You've got some nerve.

[kestrel91316]

261. You've got nerve condoning child rape. And yes, that's EXACTLY what you are doing.

[pnwmom]

222. Thanks for the links. n/t

[kestrel91316]

201. The children weren't taken away because of the way they talk or dress,

you fool. They were taken away because they had been physically or sexually abused or were in danger of being abused due to the pervasive, systemic culture of abuse that is the raison d'etre of the FLDS. Child rape and infant torture and sexual enslavemant and welfare fraud and child abandonment are holy sacraments to these freaks.

http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/About/News/2008/2008-04-09_chronology.asp

Open your eyes and read something other than TV Guide.

[Beregond2]

41. They remind me

of a kind of woman I saw a lot of in my college years. We called them "cow women," because they had just about that much personality. They were always in thrall to some domineering guy, usually of the hippie type, who thought that their membership in the counter culture meant that they couldn't possibly be sexist. The same vacant stare, the same lack of self-esteem. Eerie.

[EFerrari]

46. And you called them "cow women"?

:wtf:

[October]

250. Seriously. That was a strange post./nt

/nt

[Throd]

72. "Come play with us Danny, for ever and ever and ever..."

They sound like those creepy twins from "The Shining".

[pnwmom]

140. Eww.

But you're right.

[kestrel91316]

205. OMG, so true!

[Dukkha]

175. definitely a product of mind control

and being cut of from society. their mannerisms are creepy and almost alien like

[question everything]

218. And all wear the same dress

Same design, different colors and sizes, of course but it is one pattern.

[defendandprotect]

226. There was a study of voices in the last year or so --- in suppressed areas/conservative ...

both males and females had higher pitched voices ---

in areas where there was more freedom/liberal attitudes --- deeper voices for males and females.

Now. . . exactly what polygamy might bring about, I don't know . . .
except that the females seem to fit the profile.
What do the males sound like?

[pnwmom]

230. I haven't heard any males speak from the community. I wonder why.

It's almost like they're hiding the men.

My mother heard someone ask an ex-member about the voices, today. The answer was that the women ARE deliberately trained to speak in that fashion.

Yuk.

[XemaSab]

231. Here's what the men sound like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFAc2WiF2IE

:hide:

[pnwmom]

252. Maybe so!

Not exactly what I was expecting, however.

;)

[judasdisney]

243. "A Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood

the book

http://www.amazon.com/Handmaids-Tale-Novel-Margaret-Atwood/dp/038549081X/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208499687&sr=8-2

the movie

http://www.amazon.com/Handmaids-Tale-Natasha-Richardson/dp/B00005PJ6P/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1208499687&sr=8-3

[XemaSab]

244. It's not just the style of speech, it's the fact that they all seem to parrot a few phrases

It's like every woman there only has a tiny, tiny vocabulary and they can't even articulate half the thoughts they have about this.

[pnwmom]

251. And sometimes they parrot them in unison.

It seems that they must have been heavily coached for these interviews. "No matter what you're asked, keep saying: it's all about the kids. I love my children. My children need me." Etc.

As to the voices, my mother heard someone ask a former member about this; the person replied that the girls ARE trained to speak this way.

[XemaSab]

256. Very Newspeak-esque

If there's only a thousand words in the dictionary, you can't talk about things not covered by those words. :(

[Lone_Star_Dem]

253. Do they all sound similar? Could it be genetics?

I haven't actually heard them speak yet, but I have noticed how many of them look very similar to each other. I mean their actual features not the hairstyles and the clothing. Perhaps the women who were speaking are not too far apart genetically?

[kestrel91316]

262. They are well-trained clones.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

263. Well, that's a little bit closer than I thought they might be genetically

But not by too much.

As for them being trained, I'm sure they have been taught how to conduct themselves since they were in diapers. It's very difficult to maintain a group of people under such circumstances as those without very strict rules of conduct being applied.

[kestrel91316]

268. I hear that they way they enforce good behavior among the mothers is by

threats of violence against THEIR CHILDREN if the mothers don't toe the line.

[EFerrari]

272. And yet, hearing that, you can dehumanize them as "trained clones"?

:eyes:

[kestrel91316]

283. I admit to mixed feelings about the mothers.

That's a fair sight better than supporting them and overlooking child rape/abandonment.

[EFerrari]

290. Is anyone here doing that?

[pnwmom]

270. No, it's definitely not genetics. I experimented with my own voice

after hearing about a dozen voices of theirs, and was able to quickly produce my own version. I tried it out on my mother, my son, and my husband and they were all easily able to tell who I was imitating.

It's a strained way of speaking that feels as if the sounds are coming from some location higher than your throat--almost as if you're bypassing your vocal cords. Another DUer told me it had to do with holding your breath while speaking.

Anyway, my mom said she heard someone ask an ex-member about the voices, and the answer was that, indeed, the girls ARE trained to speak in this strained, whispery fashion.

[Marrah_G]

265. This post has certainly highlighted some people with truly fucked up realities.

So many fucked up posts....too bizarre to even answer.

Thank you for your post, the women do indeed sound very odd. Unfortunately for many of them they are too far gone to ever be deprogrammed.

[Midlodemocrat]

266. I can't believe people on this site are DEFENDING this sect.

:puke:

Children being given to men more than twice their age? That's okay with some of you? The abuse and degradation is okay with some of you? The casting out of the sons is okay with you?

My God.

And sfexpat is right. Women who have been abused are different for a very very long time. Sometimes forever.

[Marrah_G]

267. Just a couple very disturbed individuals

Most people here are aware of just how bad this is and how long it has been going on.

The rants you are seeing come purely from ignorance. Some research would quickly show them how bad these groups really are.

[EFerrari]

274. It broke my heart to see those young faces that have been so

taken over, stolen from themselves. If any of those women and girls ever get over this, it will be close to a miracle.

:hug:

[annabanana]

276. the most vociferous defender

seems to be someone with a blocked profile who is not interested in investing in a star...

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

269. I know a woman who was raised within a strict Christian environment

I'm not saying it was a cult she was in, but all the women in her family dress similarly, and they are all (IMO) unable to express any real emotion. This lady literally cannot laugh- she actually expresses laughter by saying the words "tee hee hee". Seriously. That's as close as she can come. The poor woman has probably never externalized an emotion her entire life.

She's sweet as can be- so are her mother and her daughter, but they are all pretty much the same way.

There may be no real way for them to talk about it- the shame would be too great, and they are probably not even mentally equipped to do so even if they want to.

[pnwmom]

271. The psychiatrist who testified today says the environment causes brains

to be underdeveloped, that a fifteen year old girl in an authoritarian community could have the emotional capacity of a six year old.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3176930&mesg_id=3176930

[EFerrari]

275. That's so sad.

:(

[Jed Dilligan]

277. Their voices remind me of the aliens in Galaxy Quest.

[Sheltiemama]

279. Last night, it hit me who they sound like.

Warren Jeffs. Seriously. When he was on the run, an audiotape of one of his sermons was played on TV. That's who they pattern their speech after. It makes me wonder if the men in the compound do, too. It's so eerie.

[ourbluenation]

285. yep. their culture, as small and narrow as it is, is influencing their speech.