A point about the Texas sect that many people are overlooking.

[Xithras]

I'm seeing an incredible double standard in how the men and women are being treated here. It's taken me a while, but I've come to the conclusion that everyone involved here is a victim. Man, woman, and child alike.

Many people in the media, and right here on DU, have adopted the position that the FLDS is a sex cult where men oppress women for their own gain and diddle little kids for fun. The poor unfortunate women and children are victims of sick men who should be locked away forever. This position, however, doesn't reflect the reality of the situation.

Most of the views towards this group seem to grow out of a comparison between their organization and those of David Koresh, Manson, or Jonestown. In those cults a small group of powerful figures used their influence to dominate, abuse, and ultimately kill innocent people. The leadership and membership of those group were raised as normal members of society, and yet chose to live outside of it in a way that harmed others. They are rightfully disdained for their decisions.

The FLDS is a different story though. The FLDS has been an independent religious group since the 1930's, and its communities and religious practices can be traced back to the 1890's. When we read about the men holding babies heads underwater to keep them quiet, we're horrified. We need to remember, however, that those same men had THEIR heads held underwater when they were children. They saw it happen to all of their siblings, their friends, and their schoolmates. Many people condemn the men for holding the women in a position of submission, but from the moment they were born, these men have been taught that the practice was NORMAL. Their fathers did it, their uncles did it, and the parents of everyone they knew did it. We condemn them for marrying off their young teenage daughters, and for marrying young women, but they grew up watching their own fathers marry younger women, and their own sisters be married off once they reached puberty. They were told, and society reinforced, the notion that this was normal, acceptable behavior.

I heard it mentioned yesterday that FLDS boys aren't permitted out of their communities, aren't allowed ANY contact with the world, until they reach adulthood. They are told that the people outside of their communities are evil, and everyone that they know and love reinforces the "common knowledge" that the ways of the outsiders are the ways of the devil. They never get exposed to religious dissent, they don't get to watch TV, they don't get to read the newspaper, the libraries are filtered of any materials that might foster doubt, and members who might develop independent objections are thrown out so quickly that their doubts aren't permitted to spread. These boys grow to adulthood without ever being exposed to a dissenting view. They adopt practices which we find abhorrent NOT because they are evil pedophiles who enjoy hurting people, but because for their ENTIRE LIVES, they've been taught that this is normal, acceptable, moral behavior. They've been taught that THIS is what God wants, and any other alternative leads straight to hell. They've never talked to a liberal, never had an atheist college instructor, and never watched a scientist lecture about facts that might have led them to question this worldview. From the moment they were born, this was simply the way the world worked.

These people, men, women, and children alike, are all victims of a self-sustaining cult that has been allowed to continue for far too long. What they need isn't prison time, because punishing somebody for doing something that they have always been told is moral and acceptable is not just. Our legal system has long recognized that, for someone to be tried of a crime, they must first understand that what they are doing is WRONG. Especially after watching these people on TV, I have serious doubts that they really comprehend that their behavior really was wrong. To them, it's simply the way the world is.

What these people need isn't prison, it's deprogramming. They need to be unwound the same way cultists of all sorts are unwound after being rescued. They're all victims. I understand some peoples need for justice and vengeance, but the truth is that the people who started and designed this cult are long since dead and buried.

[XemaSab]

1. Excellent point: so many posters here are treating the men like they're sex perverts

but when you're in a society where all your brothers, cousins, uncles, friends are marrying 12-year-olds, and then the Prophet says he's recieved a revelation that YOU'RE going to marry a 12-year-old, what can you really do about it? :shrug:

Yes, incest and molestation are rampant in these communities, but for a young man to be raised believing that that's "normal" and it's what "normal" men do... In they're own way they're as victimized as the women and children.

The cycle of victimization has to be broken here.

[Karenina]

2. Bingo.

[Xithras]

3. It's easy to react. It's much harder to think and reason.

This really boils down to something that cultural anthropologists have known for a long time. You cannot judge one culture by the ethics and morals of another. The FLDS have operated as a distinct culture and closed society for over a century, and they have a moral and ethical compass that is completely unrelated to our own.

Though experiment: Let's say you take two babies. Baby #1 is taught that it is good and right for him to punch the kid hard in the gut every day, and that he'll be spanked if he doesn't. Baby #2 is taught that it is good and right to be punched in the stomach every day, and that he'll be spanked if he tries to stop it. Baby #1 grows into child #1 hearing this every day, and eventually into man #1.

When man #1 walks up and slugs man #2 in the stomach as an adult, is he evil? If he is simply engaging in a behavior that he has always been told is correct, and that man #2 demurely accepts without complaint, and if there are NO voices questioning his activity, are his actions the actions of a predator? Note that I am NOT asking if they are WRONG, simply if he's an evil man for engaging in them.

These people are programmed to act this way from birth. I can fault their society as a whole, but I have a real problem hanging guilt on any of them individually.

[Indenturedebtor]

4. Well said and too true

We do things within our culture that are also inhumane. 60 hour work weeks and a life of slavery with no retirement, poisonous food, Faux News, crappy healthcare (if any), etc etc all so the top 5% can live it up!

[jasmine621]

33. They are perverts and should be locked up. No excuses .

This is America's answer to sex slaves. I don't give a s..t what anyone says.

[XemaSab]

34. Don't get me wrong, their kids should be taken away

But I think for most men it's more complicated than a mere issue of "sex slavery."

[seabeyond]

37. i dont. i really dont n/t

[madmusic]

44. Bull

Were you there? She was:

http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2008/04/beds-and-temples.html

[seabeyond]

5. i dont know that i can agree. had to delete. will think about it.

[Xithras]

7. I'd like to hear points of disagreement if you have any.

This discussion dropped like a rock.

[senaca]

51. I would like to know the success rate of deprogramming.

In our neighborhood a very intelligent young man got involved with a cult. The parents kept trying to reach out but were totally cut off. At one point the dad - a doctor insisted on seeing his son because he didn't sound well on the phone. The son called the father to raise money for the cult. At any rate his father saw him and was able to take him home because he was malnourished to the point of almost dying. When he became healthier the parents tried the intervention of deprogramming and a few weeks after it was completed he ran back to the cult. The cult tried to sue the parents for kidnapping.

Yes they may have all been victims at one point, but those in charge should still follow the same rules every U.S. citizen has to follow irregardless of religion. The question that may be asked is how far are we willing to look the other way when it comes to religion? Do honor killings not get prosecuted because that is what is culturally accepted in a community? Would the physical religious attack of one religious community be acceptable on another community? Would the burning of witches be acceptable because no one in the community knows better. I know I'm going back in history, but I'm trying to understand the argument that cultural ignorance is the reason of not prosecuting people when they have broken the law. Maybe deprogramming would be a part of the solution, however how do we break the cycle among the powerful of the community if what we have been hearing has been true.

I did enjoy your reasoning and different way of looking at this though.

[T Monk]

6. I don't like the pre-trial punishment aspect of it, re: separating parents..

from their children without a hearing. Swat tactics by law enforcement around kids in what is essentially a non-violent case is always stupid and even unethical when the complaint originates with the state.

[JerseygirlCT]

8. Those children are in imminent danger of harm

They HAVE to be removed. This happens in any situation where the authorities fear that harm will be done to the children they encounter.

[seabeyond]

18. if you even THINK a child is being raped, molested, abused, tortured

you cannot leave chldren in that situation until it goes to trial, regardless of how unfair that MAY be to parents. you have to have something that leads youto believe it is happening. but if you think it is happening, surely you are not suggesting the children should stay there and continue to be raped and abused?

[T Monk]

20. with all due respect

the most traumatic event in a child's life is forced and to the young child's mind inexplicable separation from his or her parent most probably the primary caregiver which I assume in living arrangements such as they were all living, the mother or "mothers". And, in cases like these, the trauma must be exponential if the separation is effected by swat officers trained and armed for lethal shock and awe. It's reminiscent of the all too familiar overkill tactics we've become conditioned to accept. There are better ways for the state to deal with people.

[seabeyond]

23. i cant get into all that. i did not watch all that, not aware, not informed

i was merely talking about whether one stays in an abusive or possible abusive environment while the wheels of justice spins.

[fed_up_mother]

22. This cult is knowing for moving families and kids around the country

and out of the country. Once it was determined that abuse "may" be present, it was imperative to take the kids away. You can't just knock on the door, and tell them to show up in court in a few weeks.

[T Monk]

26. perhaps I'm too cautious in regard to state authority

but I believe it's well founded

[fed_up_mother]

27. Ordinarily I very much agree with you.

But I've read too much about this cult, and know very well how they slip underground.

And how people disappear. I'm afraid CPS had to remove all the kids. Tragic? Yes, but necessary.

[seabeyond]

28. in this case, they were years overly cautious. n/t

[greendog]

9. They are the victims of religion.

This is what religion looks like without strong secular influence.

These people are about half as fucked up as we all would be if you turned the Christians loose and let them have their way.

[JerseygirlCT]

11. Such nonsense

Really. I know it feels good, but that's just a completely uninformed response.

[greendog]

19. Informed by history.

Couple of books:

"Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews: A History"
http://www.amazon.com/Constantines-Sword-Church-Jews-History/dp/0395779278

"The Dark Side of Christian History"
http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-Christian-History/dp/0964487349

We don't have to imagine what a Christian Theocracy would look like. It's already happened. It's blueprint can be found in the bible.

[JerseygirlCT]

45. So therefore every modern day religion is the same?

Nice broad brush. And again, uninformed. Shall we have the Stalin and Mao waltz now, too?

[greendog]

53. Every copy of the "modern day" Holy Bible is pretty much the same.

The same from one denomination to another and the same back through history to the time it became cannon (around 395 AD).

Some Christians take the Bible as the literal "word of God". Others find a way to disregard the dangerous, bizarre and hateful passages. To my knowledge, their aren't any groups of modern Christians who are working on removing unnecessary and dangerous and ideas from their book.

I find myself wondering why ANY modern person could feel comfortable with a Bible that endorses slavery, polygamy, and stoning or burning alive anyone who is different from them.

Is it really too much to expect, after all the damage caused by these bad ideas over the centuries, that at least one Christian leader somewhere would find the moral courage to separate the good from the harmful and produce a Bible that any decent person could look at any say: "Yeah, I agree with that".

Where I live (NW Montana) I don't see much evidence of any "nice" Christianity. I see dozens of giant billboards shoving the Ten Commandments in my face. We have the Ten Commandments on a granite stone outside our county courthouse. People have the Ten Commandments printed on their vehicles. They have Ten Commandments markers in their front yards and on signs outside their businesses. Of course they also have the Ten Commandments in front of many of the local churches. To counter this, the little UCC Church down the street has had a vinyl banner that says: "Pray for Peace, Work for Peace".

That's it! One little banner.

I don't think that liberal Christians appreciate the degree to which they are outnumbered by the authoritarian bullies. I don't have any doubt that if "Christians" had their way liberal Christians would be among the first to go.

[MisterHowdy]

17. Agreed

Pure, unchecked religion can be a very dangerous thing.

[JerseygirlCT]

10. That's a good, if difficult point

Although I still think these men have more power, and more freedom, than the women or children, and so more responsibility for their actions. I'm not sure I believe that THEY really believe they are doing nothing wrong. I'm afraid their conditioning has just allowed them the emotional room to excuse the behavior they know is not right.

But I suppose that it would be hard for either of us to definitively know.

[Xithras]

12. Right and wrong are not inherent, but are taught.

Remember Lord of the Flies. Our sense of right and wrong is implanted and reinforced by the society we live in, not by any set of basic rules burned into our brains at birth. If the rules ingrained into them as children stated that these behaviors were OK, what reason would they have had to question it?

I have no doubt that they were aware, once they became adults, that the outside world considered them wrong, but remember that they were ALSO taught that the outside world was evil and that their opinions were implanted by satan. The more the outside world objected, the more it would have reinforced their belief that they were doing the right thing. It's perverse, but it's logical.

[seabeyond]

14. they KNOW they are breaking the law. they hide it, they lie about it, they know

they would be arrested for it. they know. they teach themselves it is ok. they teach themselves it is in the name of god. but they know it is not allow on the u.s. soil

[seabeyond]

13. i have sat with this and thought. i cant agree. i can understand, be empathetic

but....

conditioning is conditioning, it is never allowed to be justification, but to understand.

those in africa are conditioned to view females in a way and have been taught sex with a virgin will cure their aids. now.... we can empathize with the dumb shits but bottom line they rape

a person that doesnt have parents, are continually abused and grows up in torturous situation, a parent daily telling them they are worthless, no money, no food, no things, no education ....they grow into criminal

the person that is taught by their father or society or whomever that females are subservient and should be treated as such. a mans right to knock her around. let her know who is the boss. grow up with a father who always did it to the mom and the children....

outside of religion, within religion..... all this is life and they dont get a pass

and no, i am not of mind that the men felt the at all a person. i dont see that those men at all saw them as anything but for their use. conditioned, taught, all they knew.... whatever, it is what it is.

we can say that IF they had not been raised in that environment, but IF many people are not conditioned then....

nope, cant give you what you are looking for on this thread. it was a male dominant the female less than human and to be used.

want to call it a bunch of perverts, so be it, ... i dont see it so much that way. i see it much worse.

they are living in the u.s. and though they have created their own word they still live by the law of the lands. they must be taught them and know them. they are not living in oblivion when it comes to the society all around. they know there would be issue with what they were doing in that compound. they know to lie about it now. they know to hide it. they are not innocently unaware. it may have been what thye have been taught, .... but that does not allow them to do it.

be it the moms who are the victims, or the men who are the victims, both the moms and the dads are also knowingly the abusers.

[annabanana]

15. We here outside believe that each individual has intrinsic worth.

We have worth that is different than the worth of livestock. Women are the "coin of the realm" in this community. it is completely at odds with everything we understand. Yes, they are all victims, but some victims are in a worse position than others...

[seabeyond]

16. they are victims that become the abuser and isnt that classic of what happens

outside of religion in abusive situations?

[fed_up_mother]

32. Exactly. Excellent point.

[anitar1]

21. One point is, they are supported with tax dollars.

Only the first wife cannot collect money, foodstamps and medical care. That is how these huge groups survive. On tax dollars. When the Warren Jeffs community in Colorado City was under fire, this was one of the facts that came out of the investigation. They are are breaking the law. If they want to have sect communes, go to Mexico and do it.

[LisaL]

36. Authorities claim they don't even know how old many of these

children are or who they belong to. One would think that if these people were on Welfare, at least authorities would have documentation on who they are.

[senaca]

47. Generational documentation may prove key.

It was said by someone on another thread that there at times no birth certificates which would be convenient in not being able to prove age of young mothers. However if a young mother's mother claimed her as a child for welfare then it would be easier to ascertain her age. It would, also, help in assisting in supporting DNA evidence once it's collected. While the previous trials of the FDLS were in Utah, this should be interesting since it's in Texas. I know the LDS does not support the FDLS, but I would think sensitivity wise it would be harder to try in Utah. In some ways, if any of the children are put into foster care it would be easier if they went into LDS homes to have an easier assimilation process and yet I can understand why the LDS would not want to get into the middle of this.

I understand the initial posts view that the men may be victims themselves, but where does the cycle get broken if not now?

[fed_up_mother]

24. Maybe you need to rewrite that excusing racists for their behavior

After all, many of them were conditioned to act the way they act.

And then you will understand why I simply can't agree.

On some level, I can understand, but I can NOT excuse. At some point, one becomes an adult, and is PERSONALLY responsible for one's own actions.

[L. Coyote]

25. And yet, they do not live on another planet, or in another country.

They make choices too, and are responsible for the choices.

What matters is treating them as individuals, not as a group, all alike. Each of us, as adults, is responsible for our own actions, not those of our siblings or parents. If a conspiracy is evidenced, then that to can be considered. But, under our legal system we do not place societies on trial, we do not investigate beliefs. We investigate crimes and try persons.

[Cerridwen]

29. I'll get back to you later. n/t

[seabeyond]

31. lol..... n/t

[NNN0LHI]

30. We might as well empty out all the prisons then

Because everyone who is in there can trace their upbringing to them ending up there.

Many child abusers were abused as children. Do you suggest letting them all out because they were victims too?

Don

[Canuckistanian]

35. But as time went on, things got a LOT easier for the males

Whereas the women continued to be subjugated, for the balance of their lives.

[Catherine Vincent]

38. Deprogrammed. Excellent point!

:kick:

[jberryhill]

39. Good point, but....

...more broadly, each of us is trapped in our own cult, if you want to put it that way.

[guyanakoolaid]

40. They belong in jail. No justification for breaking laws, period. If that's the way you were brought

up, then the way you were brought up is illegal. Enough hiding behind religion to excuse our crimes. These men, and the women that enabled them, deserve jail time.

[struggle4progress]

41. "... My sister (also a member of the FLDS) and I used to have a grim joke: "Don't drink the punch" -

a reference to the mass suicide of 900 members of the cult The People's Temple by drinking a poison punch under the orders of the Rev Jim Jones in Guyana in 1978. We were terrified it might happen to us ...."

Forced to marry a 50-year-old with six wives when just 18
By CAROLYN JESSOP -
Last updated at 21:16pm on 12th April 2008
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=559132&in_page_id=1879&ICO=FEMAIL&ICL=TOPART

[Schema Thing]

42. You nailed it. I've had trouble putting my finger on what was bothering

me about the general tone of the national discussion on this religious group.


I don't know why I was having such trouble identifying, since I was once in a somewhat similar position, I was raised in, and stayed in, the Jehovah's Witness cult (or high-control group, if you prefer) until I was 37 years of age.


I was of course very angry at the abuses I could look back on in my life... but in the end, all I can conclude is that we were victims of victims.

I couldn't agree more that punishment is not what these people need, but rather, deprogramming. That said, the inbreeding has to stop yesterday.

[seabeyond]

43. That said, the inbreeding has to stop yesterday

that is very good. i hope things are better for you now

[seabeyond]

46. i just read a thread where the boys are sexually molested too.

if this turns out to be the case.... i am going to go with a bunch of old perverted males.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3175095

[Blue Diadem]

48. Did you hear/see how one breaks the babies? Water torture!

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2008/04/18/ng.polygamy.crime.cnn

It's near the end of the video. I bawled my eyes out thinking about those poor little babies. I honestly don't know how anyone could ever deprogram a child that had been through that.

[pitohui]

49. oh for the love of christ

if you think the dirty old men who are putting the $$$ they have defrauded from the state in their pockets and who are putting their dicks in 13 year old girls are victims here, then what can i say?

no wonder progressives fail to make progress, at some point you simply HAVE to start from where you're standing and use some basic common sense

a rich dirty old man raping a 13 year to get her pregnant because he's bored with his now 16 year old wife, who has plenty of money in his pocket because he pimps the girls out as single mothers and has them beg welfare from the state -- he is not a victim, he is a con artist

DNA test them all, and every dirty old man who got an underage girl pregnant needs to 1) pay back out of his share of the ranch every dollar of child support/welfare those girls collected from taxpayers, and 2) go to prison for the rest of his life

then he can sit there and tell me how fucking victimized he feels


i realize you assume that everyone who believes in a nutjob religions is a brainwashed fool, hence you want to "deprogram" them, but your assumption that everyone is a fool is inane frankly -- there is nothing foolish about pretending to believe what you have to pretend to believe to put girls in your bed and money in your pocket -- these men are not legally morons, they have average IQs and they know damn well what they are doing is a crime -- they have the same grey matter as you or i, it's just too rewarding for them to ignore logic and follow their "teachings" -- they are criminals, pure and simple

[Richard Steele]

56. I agree completely.

[auburngrad82]

50. To learn how they handle young boys, google "lost boys of polygamy"

They kick them out and turn them loose on the streets. Too many boys means less wives per man. The "lost boys" are then homeless, with little or no formal education, and are frequently targeted by sexual predators.

Here are a few links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Boys_of_Polygamy

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy603.html

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,650224503,00.html

[marshall]

52. Remember what Mark Twain said about polygamy

From his book "Roughing It":

Our stay in Salt Lake City amounted to only two days, and therefore we had no time to make the customary inquisition into the workings of polygamy and get up the usual statistics and deductions preparatory to calling the attention of the nation at large once more to the matter.

I had the will to do it. With the gushing self-sufficiency of youth I was feverish to plunge in headlong and achieve a great reform here, until I saw the Mormon women. Then I was touched. My heart was wiser than my head. It warmed toward these poor, ungainly and pathetically "homely" creatures, and as I turned to hide the generous moisture in my eyes, I said, "No--the man that marries one of them has done an act of Christian charity which entitles him to the kindly applause of mankind, not their harsh censure--and the man that marries sixty of them has done a deed of open-handed generosity so sublime that the nations should stand uncovered in his presence and worship in silence."

[OneDemsConscience]

55. ROFL

Nice quote.

[Jed Dilligan]

54. A lot of serial killers and rapists were raised in an environment

of ritualistic abuse. Should they be given counseling rather than being incarcerated or put to death?

[Radio_Lady]

57. K&R. Brilliantly written, Xithras. My son and daughter-in-law are LDS members.

Both were raised in traditional families. My son was from a Conservative Jewish background on his paternal side, Reform Jewish on his maternal side. Daughter-in-law is Mormon like her mother's parents, but her mother is not practicing and remarried a lapsed Catholic man. These children heard dissenting voices all the time.

My son chose to be baptized as a Mormon probably because he thought it would be important to his wife, and to the children that they are raising. My daughter is also from this background, but she is more religious than I am, keeps the Kosher laws, holidays, like her father and paternal grandmother did.

I had never thought about polygamous families in this way. It is a sad, sad story.

Respectfully,

Radio Lady Ellen Kimball

(PS. Funny story: Ellen Kimball was one of the "sister wives" of Heber Kimball, a founder of LDS. Look it up on Google... I wasn't named after her obviously. However, my Jewish grandmother's name was Eva Kimball. She died of blood poisoning before I was born, trying to abort her fifth child.)