Psychiatrist testimony in polygamist case: underdeveloped brains

[pnwmom]

in children who grow up in these authoritarian communities.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/041908dnmetpolygamy.77507369.html

SAN ANGELO – A child psychiatrist who worked with children of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco testified Friday that the kids in the polygamist Yearning For Zion Ranch were in danger of growing up with underdeveloped brains that would leave them unprepared for the outside world.

Dr. Bruce Perry, who interviewed several of the children, said that among the risks the 416 ranch children face is an inability to develop healthy relationships or to make their own decisions – resulting in, for example, 15-year-olds with the emotional capacities of six-year-olds.

"That makes them highly vulnerable to individuals who would exploit this child-like quality," Dr. Perry said.

In many ways, he said, the environment the children live in is healthy, the mothers appear to be loving, the boys are happy, he said, "but there are parts of what they do that are very destructive."

SNIP

[Diane R]

1. This explains the women's interviews in the media; very simplistic and childlike speech patterns.

[Bobbieo]

2. It is doubful this info would have ever come out in Az or Utah.

There are too many Mormons in these two states that would have surpressed it.

The state of Texas deserves a great deal of credit for FINALLY exposing the dangers of FLDS polygamy.

[Prophet 451]

4. I question whether it is polygamy itself which is at fault...

... or the way such groups usually practice polygamy. I can't see anyone conducting a controlled trial though.

[nichomachus]

8. There is a long history of polygamy

It's the cult nature of this that is the problem, along with child abuse.

Polygamy has been widely practiced throughout history in many cultures. It was the norm in Africa until the Christian missionaries tried to stamp it out. Now, it's practiced de facto there, although not recognized.

Monogamy is very closely connected with notions of private property. The more a culture is attached to private property, the more it values monogamy. That keeps property from being too diluted by being chopped up among too many heirs. It has nothing to do with morality, religion, or psychological well being.

Just as celibacy was enforced in the Catholic church only after some clerics began amassing huge amounts of property. The church wanted that to go to the church and not some snotty nosed children.

[pnwmom]

10. Polgamy in Africa is no more a benefit to the women, in general,

than it is in America. It is associated strongly, just as it is here, with cultures that keep women in a subservient position.

There is not a NECESSARY connection between polygamy and the subjugation of women, but in practice there is commonly a link between the two.

[pnwmom]

9. No, but it is the authoritarianism that underlies every large, long term,

closed polygamist community.

Random polygamist families here and there, scattered among the general population and attending public schools, would not be expected to produce this result.

[Prophet 451]

12. That was more my point

That it is not the polygamy per se that produces this result but something about the dynamics of large closed polygamous communities.

[fed_up_mother]

11. The problem stems from the fact that their religion teaches

that men must have at least three wives to reach a high status in "heaven," that women MUST bear as many children as possible, and that husbands will determine whether their wives rise after death. Under those circumstances, if you thought your eternal life depended on those factors, you would want to MAKE SURE you had a plentiful supply of young brain-washed girls to marry. You can't discuss this issue without discussing the religion, as some have attempted to imply.

Here's a good description on their beliefs on a site for religious tolerance, of all places. It's not a "hate FLDS" site!

Their religious beliefs are bumping up against our country's laws, but I believe children have civil rights not to be abused, even though I'm also a strong proponent of parental rights.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_poly1.htm

[Prophet 451]

15. Of course

Believe me, I'm not excusing the child abuse for one second but I think you can discuss polygamy as distinct from the rleigions that practice it.

[fed_up_mother]

16. True, but not in this particular case, I believe

If they stop brainwashing these girls to marry at such young ages (after all, they might actually make up their own minds if they wait until they're older), what are they going to do? Resort to kidnapping? :eyes:

[Prophet 451]

17. Point well taken n/t

[SoCalDem]

20. they are not even LEGALLY married.. just pressed into breeding service

by OLD men...The man has ONE legal wife, and then forces all these teenagers to draw aid for having a slew of babies..

What surprises me, is that welfare departments did not investigate sooner when they saw such a large amount of under-age "girls" with all these babies... a pregnant 16 year old with 4 kids already, who speaks in a whisper, and dresses like she just arrived in the Conestoga wagon, should have been a BIG RED LIGHT FLASHING...especially when there had to be SEVERAL ...

[pnwmom]

21. From what I understand, there are so many thousands of these

women in Utah that the problem was deemed to big to address.

[SoCalDem]

22. Well isn't that peachy..

Seems like maybe some LAWS might be passed, and some legal action taken against the men.:grr:

The women could stay in their own little enclave, but with real schooling given to them..and their "property" being run by paid workers..

There have to be many women who escaped, who would happily help introduce these women & kids to real-life..

[roguevalley]

30. Utah is especially guilty here. Polygamy is out in Utah and Idaho

and other places but no one speaks of it. They better get on top of it for nothing else that its a HUGE pyramid game.

[JDPriestly]

23. Are there any teenaged boys among the children?

What happens to them?

[knitter4democracy]

24. They're the Lost Boys--kicked out of the community.

Often dropped off on a road with no money and no possessions far from anywhere. Basically, left to die. There are some grownup Lost Boys trying to help those who are still minors. It's pretty bad.

[LisaL]

27. They weren't kicked of this community.

State of TX send them to a ranch for troulbe kids after removing them.

[pnwmom]

31. This community is only a few years old. They probably just

didn't bring many preteen boys with them when they moved from Utah/Arizona.

But that doesn't mean there wouldn't have been boys kicked out in the future, once the current crop of young children reached that age.

[knitter4democracy]

41. Oh, the younger boys.

Sorry, I misunderstood which ones you were referring to. My bad.

[LisaL]

26. The teenage boys that were removed from the ranch were

send by a state of TX to a Cal Farley's ranch for troulbed kids.

[pnwmom]

32. Where, according to the State, they are being housed separately

from the other kids.

[roguevalley]

29. no religion is above the law. nothing in their practices is protected

except the right to believe. all the rest is in violation of every law we have.

[roguevalley]

28. they are also inbred unfortunately. some of the women who got

away say that fathers and daughters are 'marrying'. Also, they are forbidden to smile. They are so controlled, its stunted them. God help them all, the children AND the women. Look at them and feel pity. I pity them so much, all of them. The men? Hang them by their balls.

[pnwmom]

7. It explains the childlike diction, but not the strange breathless voices.

That, an ex-member said, was the product of training.

[Triana]

3. 'the boys are happy'....

...but the girls are ABUSED - emotionally, physically, sexually.

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

45. The boys are not happy

- Most of the boys are abused too - most physically, and more than a good number sexually
- A good number will be thrown out when they reach puberty and become competition for the older men (google "Lost Boys")
- They have no adult role-models, male or female
- A large number end up committing suicide

[XemaSab]

5. Thank you Dr. Frist

:eyes:

[nichomachus]

6. Huh? What does that mean?

[XemaSab]

13. You must have missed the Terri Sciavo FLAMEWARS here...

Bill Frist spewed some sort of nonsense that Terri was not in a persistent vegetative state based on the video he saw of her.

I'm saying that the dude in the OP has not met any of the people from this group, so his opinions are BS.

[nichomachus]

14. Please re-read the story

Dr. Bruce Perry, who interviewed several of the children,

[pnwmom]

19. But what you're saying is not true. The doctor in the OP

hasn't met with all of the members of the group, but he has interviewed several of the girls and of the boys, as well as some of the adult members.

[nichomachus]

18. Sounds like Young Republicans

inability to develop healthy relationships or to make their own decisions . . . emotional capacities of six-year-olds. . . highly vulnerable to individuals who would exploit this child-like quality,

[LisaL]

25. That same shrink said these kids should not be put in foster care.

WTF do you propose state of TX does with them?
http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4680903&page=1

[pnwmom]

33. The doctor said they shouldn't be put in regular foster care.

He said that the children and mothers would need lots of extra support to adapt to life outside the compound. And I agree. Why do you think there are only two choices? (Staying in the compound or being thrown into the regular foster care system?)

The judge might consider plans for special arrangements for these children and at least some of their mothers. One lawyer for a mother has proposed, for example, letting the mother live in an apartment with her children, under CPS supervision -- and with a restraining order keeping the FLDS men away, except for supervised visitation for the father. Another group of lawyers is said to be working on a plan to allow the women to stay on the ranch with their children, along with CPS workers and other people to work with them -- but for the men to leave.

In these kind of situations, the judge can make creative choices. I'm not assuming the worst.

[LisaL]

34. He said they could be put in special foster care, only one little

problem-it doesn't exist, according to him. So, basically it means in a real world they shouldn't be put in foster care.
I really don't know what the state of Texas will do with them, but I am afraid whatever it does, it will only screw them up.

[pnwmom]

35. He didn't say it couldn't happen. Only that it would take special care, that

the ordinary foster care system wouldn't work for these children.

In the real world, judges dealing with family issues make creative decisions every day. Again, this judge has more than one choice. She doesn't have to choose only between sending the kids back to the ranch, right back into the same damaging conditions they've been living in OR sending them into a foster care system that is unprepared to deal with them. She has other options, and she can also tailor the options to the various groups of children that are involved.

[LisaL]

38. I guess I will have to spell it out.

"While Perry suggested that foster care with individuals who are trained to deal with children who have suffered trauma would be ideal, he doubted such an option exists.

"That just does not exist in the foster care system that I'm aware of," he said."

He said THAT JUST DOES NOT EXIST

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4680903&page=1

[pnwmom]

39. That particular option doesn't exist. But many other options do.

And other options, such as the ones that have already been discussed by some of the attorneys, are a great deal preferable than simply returning these children to their repressive, stunted lives at the compound.

[fed_up_mother]

36. I wonder if it's possible to put them with "normal" Mormon families?

I don't think it's necessary to take away their religious beliefs as mormons, nor do I believe it's constitutional. That would be horrible. (And I'm definitely not mormon.)

I read that former members of this cult have volunteered to take in some of the women and children, but how many could they possibly take in? Even if they had to cross state lines to take in these women and children, it seems like it would be the right thing to do if they can't remain in the compound.

I'm just speculating.

[pnwmom]

37. I've read that that is one of the things the state has been looking for.

Mormon families that could take foster children. At least they would probably be a lot more sensitive to the religious issues.

[LisaL]

40. I don't think there are many mormons in TX, are there?

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

44. It's difficult because the mainstream Mormons

have excommunicated the polygamists, and I am told, make no distinction between the older men, younger men, women and children involved. So my understanding is that the mainstream Mormons cannot offer help. Perhaps the Communities of Christ could, but they're seen as too far removed from traditional Mormonism.

[Occulus]

42. "except for supervised visitation for the father."

BAD idea.

Bad, bad, bad.

Who do they think is the controlling authority for this cult's family group?

The fathers should be kept as far from their wives and children as possible at this point, including handwritten missives. It's CYA time, and those authoritarian manipulators know it!!

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

46. It's a prophet and council of elders

Most of the younger men are just as much victims as the women and children.

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

43. I have aquaintances born into Mormon polygamy

They tell me it took them 5 to 10 years after leaving to function in society. They still aren't normal, by their own admission. And they left several years ago when the most of these groups still educated their children. They tell me the situation has only deteriorated since then.