In one day, 4/18/08..Friday, 13,600, Jobs were eliminated by 2 companies.

[Stuart G]

Citigroup and ATT announced job cuts of 13,600..today.

These are not in the system, they are to come. Along with tens of thousands of other jobs cut, this alone is terrible for this country.
Yet, the federal government does little if anything. We know why. People who have never lost jobs will lose them. These cuts will ripple through the economy like a knife. They will create more job cuts, upon more.

Al we can do is elect a Democratic Congress, with a Democratic President who will initiate a program to restore faith in our economy and our government. Not only to we have Bush's War, but Bush's Recession. That is his true legacy.



McCain says that the.."There's Been Great Progress Economically Since Bush Took Office
babylonsister posted this here in the GD:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3177589

Here are the links in latest news to these events:

AlphaCenturi posted this about Citigroup;
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3273604

ohiochick posted this about ATT:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3274211

[gateley]

1. We hear reports like this almost daily --

I wonder if anyone is keeping a running tally. I think, presented in one big TOTAL, people would have a better understand of what the realities are.

[B Calm]

2. They are laying off where I work too. Nobody is buying new automobiles.

[Stuart G]

4. It is like the shit has hit the fan, and the fan hasn't ejected all of the shit yet.

It is happening, the fan is turning and the shit is hitting it. A piece here and there has ejected, yet the entire load is still processing through the fan. When it comes out and back, you will see some begin to act. Too late of course. Cause the leader of the federal government doesn't care. He has never cared. And he will never care.

[Ian David]

3. That's more jobs than al qaeda had memebers before 9/11. n/t

[hvn_nbr_2]

5. I see some million dollar bonuses coming for CEOs. nt

[SpiralHawk]

6. republiconomics worsens the ugly Republicon Recession

Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.
Republicon Recession.

Tell us again, republicons, about being so-called 'conservatives.' Ptooooey.

[Stuart G]

7. The enormity of it will come to pass........

Just 8 weeks ago, the leader of the federal government said that the economy was basically "strong"

The enormity of what has happened is the result of five five events coming together...
..A. Housing Crises:
..B. Money Crises as a result of above
..C. Outsourcing of Jobs
..D. Huge increase of the price of oil
..E. Iraq War
All of these are still progressing as you read these words. None them have gotten close to their full potential. What happens to us as a result could be truly disastrous.

For some people, it has already has.

[KSinTX]

8. Obviously incorrect data ...

"McCain: ‘There’s Been Great Progress Economically’ Since Bush Took Office"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3177589&mesg_id=3177589

[BeHereNow]

9. Add them to the 80,000 that were also cut last month.

Does anyone SERIOUSLY think Clinton or Obama will be
able to
turn this around?
If so, please give me some of what you
have been smoking.

BHN

[Stuart G]

10. Perhaps it cannot be turned around quickly but.

at least Clinton or Obama will be able to see it for what it is, a true disaster in the making. When you look at something and see it for what it is, you might be able to do something.
..This is opposed to what Bush sees and admits to. Nothing. Like Katrina, he sees water and no death, from a plane at 10,000 feet above the city. He needs to be shown on a DVD the enormity of it. And acts late, like he always does.

..Perhaps nothing can be done till a huge reconstruction program is instituted, and the troops are brought home. But at least different leadership could see and try to change. Current leadership doesn't even care what is happening.

[BeHereNow]

11. So what you are saying is...

Candidates beholden to the multi national corporate slave masters
are going to acknowledge the problem and do what exactly against the interests
of their backers?

What's the difference in an administration that doesn't acknowledge it
and one that does when the outcome for we, the people, is the same?
the fact that "they" acknowledge it
when they are still part of it?


Just look what those 2006 elections did for us...
The democrats gained the majority and continue to rubber stamp
every damned piece of legislation that is handed down by the corporate interests.

You DO realize that NAFTA was passed under Billary while his
wife served on the board of Walmart for six years, don't you?
BHN

[KSinTX]

12. Let's say they can't. They would, however, stop the financial sucking chest wound n/t

[BeHereNow]

13. Oh really?

By continuing the current policy of occupying Iraq
while selling America off to the highest bidder?

Cause honey, in case you haven't noticed, that is EXACTLY what both
are proposing.

BHN

[KSinTX]

17. I'll assume I'm "honey," unless you hit the wrong reply button

I'll start here: Explain exactly how these two have claimed to continue the current policy of occupying Iraq?

[BeHereNow]

19. Don't take "Honey" personally- and here you go on Hillary:

http://www.hillaryproject.com/index.php?/wiki/Hillary_Clinton_Iraq_Quotes/

BHN

[BeHereNow]

20. And...more on Obama's military plans-

Either way, we are screwed. ($$$$$$$$$)

BHN

[KSinTX]

22. I'll wait on BHO's; read HRC's

I had pretty much given HRC a bye on Iraq due to the immense pressures she'd have on her. But on reflection and reading the posts, her position on ME is a bit hawkish and strident for me to stomach. But I do think she's in a box on Iraq. I also think BHO is as well and he doesn't come across to me as someone who wants or can afford to keep a war going there since his entire economic plan hinges on stopping it.

[BeHereNow]

23. Sorry- I forgot the link to the Obama plan....

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/01/2008-obama-on-terrorism/

Bottom line is-
ALL three candidates intend to continue the glut of military spending;
withdrawing troop rhetoric means NOTHING when they intend to
keep funding the whores known as private military contractors.

BHN

[KSinTX]

28. I've read the BHO report and it reinforces us getting out of Iraq

I'll grant you, he shifts the war to Afghanistan (a move I wholeheartedly support and "reject and renounce" Bush for abandoning) but that is a more focused and shared, minimally but moreso than Iraq, with NATO allies). I'm guessing you support Nader or Ron Paul?

[BeHereNow]

29. I don't support any of them at this point-

I think Kucinich might have helped our cause, but the PTB
would never allow that to happen.
I will however, vote for the Democratic candidate no matter what-
simply because I refuse to let my right to vote be cast away
with the rest of my rights-
Not that I think it will matter, mind you.
BHN

[KSinTX]

34. Well, just talking out of my a** a bit here

I have a gut feeling that BHO would be the most likely to undo some of power grab Bush has made using the fears and insecurities of American citizens. My sense is that HRC is all about the power and would never restore those decimated rights. In fact, she'd grab a few more in the bargain.

[BeHereNow]

35. You know what MATTERS?

The fact that which ever scum bag is sElected,
WE are fucked.
What ever is left of this country will be
funneled to the corporate elite.
Count on it.

On edit-
I would like to be wrong about this, but unfortunately,
I don't think I am-
Lets make a deal to meet here again
in four years and see if we are any better off-
keeping in mind the fact that a democratic majority
win in 2006 didn't change shit.
BHN

[Stuart G]

14. Correct, the wound might be stopped, and .

it is possible that Clinton or Obama could change the situation enough to save us. Sure it would be hard, but it is possible. And I am not sure that as President, either would be totally beholden to the Corporate Interests. Yes, they might be, but they might not be.

[BeHereNow]

16. BHN say, "Do your homework."

They ARE beholden to the corporate interests.
Who do you think is paying for their obscene campaign budgets?

Hint: It aint the tooth fairy.

BHN

[SammyWinstonJack]

24. And how exactly would they do that?

That's assuming that either one of them actually does manage to get elected. I won't hold my breath.

[BeHereNow]

33. Precisely- DIEBOLD et al...

BHN

[SammyWinstonJack]

40. You rock! And I don't like saying this

but I like you because you are real!

[Horse with no Name]

15. they are on our supervisors to cut, cut, cut

They have increased our nurse:patient ratio...and when one of our managers stood up and told them that they could not meet the NATIONAL standard of care for newborns by those numbers...the money man said "SO?"

Trust me when I say the number crunchers are everywhere...and I mean in the places you least expect it.:scared:

[burythehatchet]

18. .

:smoke:

[A HERETIC I AM]

21. Out of curiosity...

Yet, the federal government does little if anything. We know why.

What exactly would you propose the Federal Government do about a private company cutting its workforce during a slowdown in the business cycle? And what is it "we" know?

People who have never lost jobs will lose them.

How do you know this? Do you think every single person losing their job has never had this happen to them before? It might have been the case 30 years ago, but it is highly unlikely it is the case now.

These cuts will ripple through the economy like a knife.

No, these cuts will ripple through the economy like a ripple.

They will create more job cuts, upon more.

Exactly to the point at which businesses see the demand for their goods and services starts to rise again. Well before then the layoffs will stop. Unemployment is a LAGGING indicator. This is not the end of the world. Sure, it sucks for those being laid off or fired, but it does not mean that all those people will never find work again.

It's a RECESSION. Things recede. It has happened in the past and it will happen again. It is NOT the end of the world.

Please tell me you have a memory that is longer than 20 years.

[Pale Blue Dot]

25. "Please tell me you have a memory that is longer than 20 years."

I do. And you have data, I'm assuming, that shows how similar this is to the last two recessions, right?

It's a cycle, it's always a cycle, and it can never be any different, because... well, just because. :eyes:

Talk to me in 20 years. These jobs aren't ever coming back.

[Stuart G]

26. It is a very very bad cycle....

During the 1880s, yea, longer than we have been alive, eh? there was massive unemployment, riots, (Haymarket Riot), and the beginning of unions and workers rights. Recovery took a long time. Now, it is unknown what a so called.."cycle" would do to such a large economy...
And Finnfan is right, these jobs are lost. I am not sure (and no one is) where we are headed, but it isn't going to be easy. And we need a person with a brain in the Presidency, and a team which will at least consider the level of poverty in this country. This is opposed to the clowns in there who don't give a shit.

[A HERETIC I AM]

30. Well what would you have the Federal Government do about this particular case?

I refer you to my question.

You said "Yet, the federal government does little if anything."

What the fuck is the Government supposed to do about layoffs at AT&T and Citigroup? Please, tell me. Are they supposed to make them stop laying people off? Should the Government force the American people to buy more of Citi's and AT&T's services? Should the Government buy more? What the fuck can the Government do? Would it be better if those two companies didn't lay anyone off and as a result went out of business, thus throwing the entire workforce out of a job?

BTW, the comparison between this economy today and the 1880's is a rather large stretch. If you don't see the differences, then I fear for your perceptions in general.

[A HERETIC I AM]

27. Well Finfann, since you decided to answer for the Original Poster....

I'll take up the only salient point you raise;

"These jobs aren't ever coming back."

Perhaps.

But they will be replaced by other jobs. Sooner or later. You seem to insist on selling the ingenuity of the American people and this economy short.

Yes, fine, we aren't the industrial powerhouse we were in the 50's. Having hundreds of major companies with 100,000 plus employees showing up for work each day are a thing of the past. It is almost impossible to graduate from High School, get a Union Card and go to work "down at the mill". But that does not mean that we don't make anything here any more and it does not mean that this country can not be innovative.

It's a cycle until brilliant minds like yours come up with a way for production to precisely match consumption. Until then, people will continue to buy a refrigerator that lasts as long as possible, and a car that is built well, and paint that stays the same color for longer than a decade, and the cheapest airline fare, and telecommunications equipment and services that require a specific number of people to operate based on how many customers there are, etc., etc., etc.

Figure out a way to keep 100,000 people employed when only 80,000 are required to satisfy the workload and at the same time keep the company - A PRIVATE ENTITY that is in the business of turning a profit from going under, and you're sure to win the Nobel Prize for Economics.

There are some significant differences between this downturn and the others that have preceded it. That is a point I will not argue and this administration is in large part to blame for it. It still does not mean the end of the market economy and it does not mean that several million unemployed will be so for the rest of their lives.

I fairly sure I won't be talking to you in twenty years.
For any number of reasons.
But you have my very best wishes for your future.

[Pale Blue Dot]

36. First, I want to thank you for your calm and reasoned response to my rather hysterical post.

My frustration is getting the best of me - but I'm frustrated for a reason.

There was a time, maybe even as recently as 20 years ago, that an entrepreneur could have a great idea, start a small business to make that idea reality, be successful and create jobs for thousands in the process.

As little as four months ago, you were claiming that we (who I call "the economic realists) were overreacting, that there wasn't going to be a recession, and all we had to do if we wanted proof of this was to "open our doors and listen to the sounds of people going to work."

I wonder if you are hearing the sounds of small businesses being created. I certainly don't hear it, or see it for that matter.

We have become increasingly corporate over the last century, as mergers and acquisitions consolidated everything. The mantra on Wall Street became "Merge and cut jobs, and your stock price will soar."

These jobs are not coming back, and they won't come back, because there is no way in our present economy to create them anymore. Small businesses can't get off the ground, and our government cannot possibly spend enough to create them itself, as was done in the thirties and forties. We have national and personal debt on a level not seen before in human history.

One needs only look at the reaction of the airline industry to the "recession": bankruptcies and mergers. Many, many more jobs lost.

I am frustrated because smart people like you, who have a vested interest in believing in the status quo, are ignoring the the growing mountain of evidence that this is going very bad for a very long time. People like you are on Wall Street right now driving stock prices up 220 pts. because one company's earnings were slightly better than expected while looking past news such as what the OP posted.

I think that you are a good person, but I think you're deluding yourself. This is not remotely like 20 years ago. It's not even remotely like 80 years ago. The rules of the market will not hold anymore. The sooner we can admit that, the better.

[A HERETIC I AM]

39. Would you be so kind as to show me any post I ever made that said...

"there wasn't going to be a recession"? Please?

I admit I have said many DU'rs were overreacting to the economic turmoil. I said that because so many were and still are saying we are headed for a depression. THAT is an overreaction. If I actually said "There will not be a recession" that I was obviously wrong and I apologize. I deserve to be called on the carpet for saying such a thing, but I do not recall ever saying that. I remember the thread you are referring to, however. It was a fumbled attempt to draw attention to the basic hum of daily commerce. A hum that has certainly slowed, but it will not stop. That was the point I was trying to make in that thread.

I live in an area of the country with a higher rate of unemployment than the national average, no industry of any scale at all outside the building industry (which has ground to a halt), led the nation in February in foreclosures, has had one of the most dramatic drop-offs in real estate values and a massive inventory of new, unoccupied homes. Yet the overwhelming majority of people in Lee County, Fla. still get up and go to work every day.

There was a time, maybe even as recently as 20 years ago, that an entrepreneur could have a great idea, start a small business to make that idea reality, be successful and create jobs for thousands in the process.

It can still be done. It is being done every day. I completely disagree that it is not possible to start a small business and be successful at it.

I wonder if you are hearing the sounds of small businesses being created. I certainly don't hear it, or see it for that matter.

Businesses start up every day. And they fail every day. The successful keep trying, even through failure. The unsuccessful do not.

These jobs are not coming back, and they won't come back, because there is no way in our present economy to create them anymore. Small businesses can't get off the ground, and our government cannot possibly spend enough to create them itself, as was done in the thirties and forties. We have national and personal debt on a level not seen before in human history.

Below is a snip from the article about AT&T, linked in the OP;

The nation's largest telecommunications provider said most of the layoffs will be among managers, particularly in wireline operations, including local phone service and service for large corporate customers. Jobs in corporate functions in like finance will also be cut.

"Even with the reductions announced today, we expect our head count overall to remain stable this year as we hire additional employees to support growth areas like wireless and TV," said spokesman Michael Coe.

That's 4600 employees, out of a company that employs almost 310,000 people. The article quotes their spokesman as saying they "expect our head count overall to remain stable this year as we hire additional employees". Again, why do you think these jobs will not ever come back or at least be replaced with other jobs?

One needs only look at the reaction of the airline industry to the "recession": bankruptcies and mergers. Many, many more jobs lost.

Finnfan, you have to admit - really - that the North American Airline Industry is a really bad example to use. When you book a flight, do you seek out the most expensive fare? If not, why not? Don't the Union mechanics, Pilots, Flight Attendants, Ground Personnel and their retired brethren deserve a decent wage? Personally, I think domestic commercial airline seats should be priced like Taxi Cab fares. Your choice would then be limited to when you fly, not how much you pay. The rates would all be the same, regardless of carrier. They could begin to compete on how well they treated you again. The airlines could charge a set price to move a persons butt per mile and that rate would be based on actual costs, not an absurdly complex, tiered rate system like exists today. Fares would go up, but Airlines would be solvent again.

I am frustrated because smart people like you, who have a vested interest in believing in the status quo, are ignoring the the growing mountain of evidence that this is going very bad for a very long time.

First of all, I'm flattered and thanks for the compliment. But why do you say I have a "vested interest in believing the status quo"? What could possibly be my vested interest in believing everything is fine? Things are not fine by a long stretch, but they are not the total shambles and clusterfuck many on this message board insist they are.

People like you are on Wall Street right now driving stock prices up 220 pts. because one company's earnings were slightly better than expected while looking past news such as what the OP posted.

Again, I'm flattered but I do not work on Wall Street nor is it in my power to have even the slightest effect on the bid/ask spread of a particular stock. Besides, if people like me were on Wall Street, the market would have been up 440! (j/k) But I concede the larger point you are alluding to. The psychology that drives stock prices - why one goes up one day and down the next, why a share goes up on bad news and others down on good news even perplexes people who have been in the business for decades. There are two major factors that drive all markets: Fear and Greed. That's it. It's as simple as that. Prices are bid down because people fear for the future and fear they might get screwed. Prices are bid up because greed demands getting while the getting is good. If a company lays off 4600 workers and that layoff means they will remain profitable, or at the very least, solvent, traders react accordingly. If AT&T had announced a loss for the last quarter and also announced they were going to hire 4600 people without a justifiable reason, what would have been the result?

I think that you are a good person, but I think you're deluding yourself. This is not remotely like 20 years ago. It's not even remotely like 80 years ago. The rules of the market will not hold anymore. The sooner we can admit that, the better.

Again, thanks for the compliment. I think you are a good and decent person also. If I am deluded - well, time will tell. If you and the others that agree with what you are saying are correct, and the economy sinks into an abyss, it is likely you'll never hear from me again because Internet access will be the first luxury I cut loose. As far as the rules of the market are concerned, I beg to differ. Each and every time you hear of malfeasance, it is a sign the system is working. Every time bad news comes out, it is a sign the system is operating properly. Every time you hear of a lawsuit filed against a financial firm, or a trader being arrested, or indictments being handed down against principals of a company, it is a sign the rules are working. The system constantly needs tweaking and it is constantly tweaked. Does it need improvement? Absolutely. Is it fucked up in some ways? Damned straight. Is it completely broken? No. Not by a long shot.

Contrary to the opinion of the regular posters on the SMW thread and other threads on this board, the United States Financial Markets are the envy of the world. I've said this before and I'll say it again; They are incredibly deep, very transparent, extremely well regulated, politically stable and have a reliable court system in which to settle disputes. The American people are known the world around as being hard working and, domestically anyway, relatively peaceful. We have regular, non-violent transfers of political power and the population reliably and voluntarily pays taxes on their wages. We are innovative, generous, industrious and clever and our nation and businesses will continue to be so for a very long time to come. This economic slowdown will be but a blip on the chart of history in 20 years.

If that sounds like a Rethug talking, well...excuse me. Being a Capitalist and a Progressive are not mutually exclusive.

[BeHereNow]

32. Correct- In twenty years, this country will not be recognizable.

Which is why I spend hours and hours here:
http://www.escapeartist.com

Anyone who thinks there is hope is a FOOL.

BHN

Edited to fix link to escape artist dot com

[undeterred]

31. Harley Davidson, too

Harley will idle plants, lay off 730

In the wake of lower first-quarter earnings despite higher revenue compared with last year, Harley-Davidson Inc. said Thursday that it will temporarily close some plants, reduce daily production and cut about 730 jobs.

The Milwaukee-based motorcycle manufacturer (NYSE: HOG) didn't say which plants it would close or where it will cut jobs. The company has about 1,000 employees at its Kansas City plant and ranks No. 43 on the Kansas City Business Journal's list of area private-sector employers.

Harley-Davidson spokesman Bob Klein said in an interview that none of the roughly 370 unionized production jobs slated for cuts are in Kansas City. It's too early to know whether any of the roughly 360 nonproduction job cuts will affect Kansas City, he said. The "vast majority" of those jobs are in Milwaukee, he said.

Temporary shutdowns of partial operations will affect all of the company's plants, Klein said. Some temporary shutdowns of entire plants also could occur, he said.

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/stories/2008/04/14/daily26.html

[BeHereNow]

37. Nafta is working SO well for the global elite, eh?

The rest of us be Katrina'd (or damned to be more succinct.)
BHN

[undeterred]

38. Worldwide demand is down

and I know Harleys are loved (for reasons I don't entirely understand) the world over. I could understand if just American demand was down. This is scary. Its a lot of jobs all at once. A lot of families depending on those jobs are being let down into nothing all at the same time with nowhere to go.