I'm sick and tired of people being accused of being "out of touch with small-town America"

[El Pinko]

I'm sick and tired of people being accused of being out of touch with small-town America or rural America. Guess what? Most Americans don't live in small towns anymore.

I don't give a crap about being in touch with small town America per se. I'm all for the government making sure that their economic needs are met and all, but honestly, I couldn't give a rat's ass about

small-town values or what small-town voters think. I spent every damn summer of my youth in a small town of 5000 in N. Texas - a place that made El Paso look like San Francisco.

There were some notable exceptions, but mostly what I heard from everyone there was ignorant, racist, backward, bible-beating nonsense.



"We don't go down t'Dallas anymore because the nigras/Mexicans have taken over."

"The Mexicans are takin' over the whole country. Pretty soon they'll move into Bowie - and once they're here, you know the nigras won't be far behind."

"Catholics aren't Christians."

"The nigras were better off under the confederacy. They gave them food and shelter and they had no worries at all. Now look at'em, living in a bunch of housing projects on welfare and killing each other."

"You don't know what it was like after the Civil War ended. The Yankees let the nigras run wild and they were raping the young girls all over the place. They NEEDED the Klan to keep the peace."

When I was a little girl, a bunch of gypsies came through town, and they did nothing but steal and.. (etc. etc.)


This is all the kind of crap I heard CONSTANTLY from my family and neighbors - in the 1980s. These people were so delighted in 1985 or so when the Wal-Mart opened,

and none of them seemed to make a connection when the downtown was all boarded up within 3 years. Now there is a crystal meth epidemic there. Real Norman Rockwell. :eyes:



I am so SICK of politicians pandering to small-town idiocy. (and yes, I KNOW there are some good intelligent people in small towns!)


If there's a problem, it's not that politicians or pundits or city people are out of touch with small-town America.

It's that much of small-town America is out of touch with reality, and out of touch with the way the vast MAJORITY of Americans, who live in cities and the suburbs that ring them, think.



And saying so is not "elitist". I didn't even make $30K last year. I didn't come from money and I don't swill "brie and chablis". I'm just a regular guy trying to raise his kids on chump change.


And this is not an attack or a defense of Hillary or Obama - I have no problem with either of them. It's just this media meme that all liberals are these toffee-nosed snobs who look down their noses at the wonderful apple-pie country folks.

It's total BS.

[kenny blankenship]

1. Gave it a rec, but try to be gentle with them

we all have to live together, even if we don't, you know, actually live together.

[El Pinko]

3. It's not that I don't have *some* affection for small towns or their people.

It's just so lopsided. Why are country people presented as these all-American paragons of virtue and city people as insensitive out-of-touch boors?

Just tired of it.

[Fredda Weinberg]

9. Because they demonstrate more manners than you n/t

[El Pinko]

12. Yeah, I guess it is rude to not puff up the phony image of small town people as down-home saints

:eyes:

[MuseRider]

15. !

:spray:

[Kitty Herder]

54. As someone who grew up in two small towns, I think the opposite is true.

Country people are the insensitive, out-of-touch boors. And snobby as all hell.

I grew up in my dad's hometown, population 110, until I was 11. Then we moved to a small city. (It's metro area has population of 376,760.) The people there were very kind; the neighborhood took us in as if we were family, and best of all, nobody thought they knew all there was to know about me based on nothing more than my last name.

A year later, my parents got divorced, and my mom, my brothers and I, moved back to the same county, but this time to my mom's home town ten miles away, population 1,400. People were not kind at all. Suddenly, as a divorced family, we were pariahs. Especially my mom. The people at church treated her like scum. They also treated anybody whose grandparents didn't grow up here the same way. (At least I was spared being looked down upon for that, too. My ancestors were among the founders of this town.)

As an adult, I've moved around a lot, and now I'm back home. These small-town people are as rude, unkind and snobby as ever.(With some notable exceptions. No generalization is worth a damn, as my grandma used to say.) And as an adult, I'm more aware of some of their intolerance. I see how intolerant they are towards anyone who is different, whereas when I was young, I accepted that and just tried to fit in. In my travels, I've found that city-people are the truly virtuous, kind, tolerant, give-you-the shirt-off-their back types. Granted, I've never lived in a huge city like New York. But I don't think even New Yorkers could beat out the people in my hometown for sheer snobbiness and intolerance.

[MindPilot]

2. I have family in a small east Texas town.

Yeah, you're right. And I'm tired of this whole people-who-live-in-the-country are somehow better than us city folk meme.

Edit: syntax

[Doctor Cynic]

4. Shhh! You'll break the Mayberry image they all want us to think!

[Jade Fox]

5. It is a particularly ludicrous statement coming from the media....

who, as the recent debate fiasco confirms, are out of touch with EVERYONE, and live in some bizarre world of their own making.

As for "elites", I've finally figured out that the real crimes of people condemned with that label are: lack of stupidity, bigotry, and general mediocrity.

[Kitty Herder]

55. Amen to that.

[sandnsea]

6. I hear the same stuff from city people

They don't go to xyz neighborhood anymore because the blacks have taken over. So-n-so had to move because the blacks had taken over. If it isn't 'the blacks', it's 'the wetbacks'. I mean really, there's ignorant people all over this country. Look at how many are supporting McCain, even as they howl about how bad Bush has done.

[El Pinko]

10. Sadly, in the bigger cities, people tend to say the same things as the country folk...

...only they say it in code. Talking about how they bought a house in X school district and how their neighborhood has a low crime rate, etc.

I wish I could say that what you're saying is untrue, but I can't.

That being said, at least people living in TRULY urban environments have more chances to interact with different ethnic groups and kinds of people, so at least they're not completely ignorant.

The stuff I put in the OP is really just the tip of the iceberg of stuff I heard there...

[KansDem]

22. In all fairness, I grew up in the suburbs of Southern California...

Many of the "Californians" I encountered were transplanted Mid-westerners, and "yes" I heard many a racist joke and comment...

[Zynx]

44. Exactly. In Milwaukee there is horrible racism and ignorance among lower income whites.

[sandnsea]

47. Oh god, upper income assholes too n/t

[Zynx]

85. Certainly, but I think there is more intolerance of the sort the OP was talking about

down the income scale. However, there is of course elite racism and discrimination that takes form in some very insidious ways.

[Marr]

49. I don't. Maybe that's not PC, but there you go.

I mean, people like to talk about how we're all the same, how there are these false divisions, etc., but I think that's a myth in itself. There are distinct differences from region to region, and from city to small town.

I moved from a small town to a city, and was very pleasantly surprised at how much more open and accepting the city was in general. There are racists and religious kooks everywhere, yes-- but you know what? They don't have nearly as much sway in cities.

[sandnsea]

50. I was very much surprised

when city people came to my small town and were very upset that their kids were going to have to mingle with, well, the bar owner's child and the janitor's child. I mean, gah, everybody in their gated community all made the same upper income, went to the same mega-church, sent their kids to the same private school...

Snobbery and bigotry exists everywhere. It's just whether you see it or not.

[Marr]

87. I've never seen that.

When I lived in a small town I never saw that. I saw a lot of racism, sexism, anti-gay bigotry, anti-intellectualism, and general stupidity, but I never saw what you're describing.

I'm sure you could pick out an asshole here or there and play tit for tat. The cities are full of assholes-- no doubt about it. But they're mostly equal opportunity assholes. The cities are not dominated by racists and bigots to the same degree that "small town America" is.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

7. The not-so-hidden implication is that being out of touch with BIG-town America is A-OK.

And that's where the problem lies.

[Kitty Herder]

57. Well said. nt

[mainer]

8. Why do we cater to them? (and I live in a small town)

No one wants to offend "small-town Americans." But no one seems to mind offending San Franciscans or New Yorkers.

[MuseRider]

11. Well consider this.

I live in a "town" of about 60 people and ya know what? They don't give a crap about what you or city people think.

Thanks for your help. Those of us who are out here working to make things change say thank you for proving just what we have been trying to get rid of. Does not matter how much you make my friend, what matters is what you say. As for being out of touch with reality, well they are very in touch with their reality but since it is different than yours I guess that counts only for stupidity?


Jesus.


Oh, one more thing, most everyone out here considers themselves Republican but they almost to a person agree with me when we talk and I am way left of what is currently called the Democratic Party. It would be really helpful if I could finish this work (along with the countless others who daily try to make a difference) without being set back all the time. Really, seriously. Do you want a better country or would you rather make (or keep) part of your country the enemy? I guess we all have to have someone to hate on. :shrug:

[El Pinko]

16. "I guess we all have to have someone to hate on."

Yep - and in this campaign cycle, the media have decided that the people to hate on are city slicker liberals, especially ones that live in snobby commie places like San Francisco.

[MuseRider]

26. Well that is not the fault of

the people in rural America now is it? It is the fucking media once again. First they stir up city people against country people then they do the opposite. As long as we keep falling for this it will never change and if things have not already gone too far to change back it will not be long before it does. As far as this campaign cycle, I would not know and do not care what any of them are saying. Don't fall into this media induced division. Just as you think you and your values are valid so do the people out here and you know what? They all have value, they may be different but do not go and paint a swath out here that says that what these people think and who they are do not matter. For the record I could do without every hearing the word Heartland for the rest of my life. I do understand what you are saying I just wish you would say it differently.

Hell, if I did not live here my next choice would be New York City. Some of us are working out here and really trying to heal things because we see both sides. You have no idea what it was like out here after the 2000 selection and all the Dumbfuckistan and Red State hate came out. They have value as people no matter what you think and they should be treated with the respect you seem to think they owe you just because of where you live. One of my best friends once told me that she wished I would get caught out here in the boonies in an ice storm and slide off the road and die because I did not have to pay city taxed like she did. I was stunned but this is the kind of thing that people do to each other. Be better than that and try to heal. It is the only way we will ever change their minds, the ones that are capable of changing their minds.

If this sounds disjointed I am sorry, I am rushing because I have to go out and fix pasture fence (really I do, truly). This may be mindless "small timey" in your eyes and mind but to me it is as important as hitting all the lights as I walk downtown to my job so as not to be late in the big city is to you.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

13. Well said, amigo .......

You nailed it.

I come from a small borough in Pennsylvania, not far from Hazleton, that bastion of freedom, where the idiot Mayor rammed through the Illegal Immigration Relief Act. It provided for fines if you rented an apartment or house to someone who wasn't a legal citizen. If a business hired an undocumented alien, its business license could be pulled for five years. I recall that it also made illegal the act of translating anything for an illegal immigrant.

It was absurd, and I believe the courts hammered it for being overly broad. Still, the damage was done, and the small city lost a slew of business owners and workers as people fled in fear of being busted, and now, in a depressed area that has no industry since the coal mines closed down, Hazleton is slowly sliding downward.

Nice work, Mayor Barletta, whose grandparents - like mine - were immigrants.

This is why Obama's never going to win Pennsylvania. It's not going to be easy for some folks to vote for Hillary Clinton, but they'd rather die than vote for a ........ well, you know what they call him.

No one's ever pointed out to them that he's also half-white. They'd figure out a way to make that just a rumor.

(I'd love to be wrong about Obama winning PA, but I lived there for too long to be optimistic.)

[soothsayer]

14. You're probably just out of touch with small town America.

[El Pinko]

17. LOL - I've only been back there once since my early 20s, two years ago.

It was sad - the town had decayed more. My grandma passed away 12 years ago. Despite her unbelievable racism, I loved her dearly. My great uncle, who was extremely overweight and refused to eat anything that wasn't drenched in cream gravy, had died. My other cousin, the chain-smoker who lived in the trailer still smoked even though she was on a ventilator. Everybody still does NOTHING but watch TV in their free time. It was very depressing overall.

[Kindigger]

18. Amen

Unfortunately, they are the least expensive places to live. Most likely the only kind of place a single person on disability payments of $650 mo. can have a roof.

That being said, my neighbors, as described quite accurately in the OP will continue to avoid me lest they be damned to Hell for hearing something I may say in their uppity, high-narrow-minded, clueless, ignorant presence. My landlord will continue his "that's not the way we do things around here", despite my protestation that there are laws that my humble abode must meet, and it was also in the lease I signed you fucking moran that can't even read his own shit.

They'll give me wide berth in my summer clothing, as I incidentally display my tattoos, because you never know what "those kind of people" will do.

Finally, I will come here for my daily dose of sanity, until I piss off my monopoly ISP that final time, by telling them at least once a month how "you're a bunch of money grubbing rip offs, and just because you're the only game in Podunk you can get away with it, and BTW SCREW YOU".

If I were rich they'd call me eccentric, but around here I'm just plain crazy, and ya know what you potluck supper sucking, Lane Bryant wearing, ugly lawn ornament contestants? Fuck you!

[Kitty Herder]

58. Hmmm..... I wonder if you and I live in the same town.

Because, damn, that all sound familiar.

[JohnnyLib2]

19. Good grief, PTSD?

I've lived in small towns, mostly, but also in Marin County CA and in Nashville. The good and the bad are to be found anywhere, IMO.

[El Pinko]

25. Marin hasn't been "small town" in a LONG time.

Bucolic and pretty, yes, but it's still basically rich suburbs of SF.

Definitely not representative of most of small-town America.

[Warpy]

20. The only small town I ever lived in was in New England

which is a far cry from the bible banging salt of the earth in Texas. However, it was still narrow minded, ignorant, and pathetically out of touch with what was happening in the rest of the state, never mind the rest of the country. Obsessed by local gossip, they just never allowed their imaginations to wander outside their narrow lives. They might not have thumped a bible to back it up, but they were still ignrunt and proud uvvit.

Small town values are what we city dwellers are trying to leave behind us. The notion that small towns are somehow purer and free of sin and corruption is utterly ridiculous to anyone who has ever lived in one.

It's just another flavor of Rousseau's noble savage nonsense. I'm afraid Hobbes came closer to the truth on the natural state of man. He certainly described small town life well with the stunting of intellectual inquiry replacing the shortness of physical life.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

35. I've had a racy novel rolling around in my head for years...

all based on the daily scandals of the small town I grew up in. :evilgrin:

[NuttyFluffers]

81. "Peyton Place" could always use a modern update.

:evilgrin:
whenever i hear this ridiculous "out of touch with small town America" trope i immediately think, "hmm, i think it's a good thing to be out of touch with 'Peyton Place.'" all places have their assholes and psychopaths; it's just in smaller towns there's less experience with different people. therefore when real evil enters the community they are often less successful in keeping it away or stop it from ruling their lives. there's a very serious lesson in "strength in numbers."

[cali]

97. I'll put up the values, generosity and open mindedness of the

people in my community in Northern Vermont with anywhere. I lived in Boston for ten years, and I've spent time in other cities, and I'm always grateful for the people that live here, whether its the dairy farmer down the road, the world famous Bread & Puppet crew, the folks that run the nursery or the shop owners and people who work in the mill.

[KansDem]

21. I'm with you...

I lived in small towns, and I agree with you.

Small towns for small minds: I'm sick and tired of the racist jokes (I heard one small-towner tell me "niggers make good football players, but he'd hate to live next to one"). And I'm sick and tired of Mexican bashing (The "Why should I have to press '1' for English?!" bullshit).

I'm sick and tired of walking into restaurants along Highway 50 between Emporia and Newton, Kansas, and have every fucking pair of eyes turn to stare at me because I am a "stranger in their community." I'm sick and tired of "church elders" setting the mood at community events. One such "church elder" used to tweak my beard--some old fart who'd been in the church for all his miserable 65+ years. I'd have popped the SOB in the chops if it wasn't for my mom whom I was with. But this fuck thought he could exert his "power and influence" over me by performing this childish stunt. That's how small towns operate: establish the "pecking order" by submitting "underlings" to condescension.

City dwellers are more tolerant of others because they know, living so close to each other, they all have to get along. Small towners have a kind of "cultural inbreeding" due to their self-inflicted isolation.

Fuck Small-Town America™. I've been there, and I have absolutely no desire to go back!

[El Pinko]

27. OMG - that happened to me once with the restaurant!

I took some friends of mine with me on a road trip to the Gila Cliff Dwellings in New Mexico.

It was a Sunday at around noon and we went in an Arby's to grab some lunch in Silver City. Almost everyone in the place was in CHURCH CLOTHES and we were all in casual stuff, because of course, none of us EVER went to church-LOL.

Half the people in the joint kept staring at us while we ate - it was really weird.

[KansDem]

30. Yeah, it's kind of unsettling...

I mean I don't mind someone looking up to see who entered the establishment, then going back about their business, but in these places, they would stare and follow me with their eyes. It was weird!

[Miss Carly]

23. them thar big city fellas have jobs and commutes

them small town folk have gossip. Everybody dies famous in a small town.....

Carly

[nancyr]

24. People are pretty much the same.

People are people, no matter where they happen to live. There is always a segment of bigots, racists, morons,etc, wherever you live. In a small town you just have more contact with them. I speak from experience:lived in a small town of 1400 in Kansas for many years. People tend to be more isolated, or insulated, in the rural areas. Perhaps the rise of the computer age might have exposed them to broader areas. But, I still have friends in the midwest who get all of their news from the major networks and refuse to mess around with those new-fangled gadgets like computers and the internets. Believe me, it's not all apple pie.

[izquierdista]

28. Repositories of the dim-bulbs

When I was growing up in a small town, I couldn't wait to get out and go where there was more opportunity and learning instead of old farts waiting to go play golf. Most of the bright kids in my high school left for the big city, or what they thought were greener pastures. Now if that is replicated across the country, the brain drain from rural and small town America, it's no wonder that what you have left are people who incur a serious strain to their brain when asked to choose from (A) their own self-interest and (B) :nuke: :scared: :patriot: :patriot: :scared: :grr: :grr: :beer: :scared: :tinfoilhat: :patriot:.

These are the fools who believed the Republican lies about Social Security, but now rely on it to keep themselves from starving. These are the ignoramuses that believe the line that "socialized medicine is bad" and then die because they can't afford to get curable diseases treated. As Bill Maher said, these are the fools who base their vote on who they would like to have a beer with, and make the rest of us suffer with that decision for 8 years.

Yes, there are more of them in rural areas and small towns, and the problem is that there are not enough community activists to explain to them, in simple terms that they can understand, how voting Republican is going to make their life worse. As the OP said, they can't make the connection between Wal-Mart coming and the downtown going. They can't make the connection between two oil men in the Executive Branch and gasoline quadrupling in cost. Instead of being like contestants on Jeopardy! who can run the category of Elizabethan Literature, they are like the contestants on Wheel of Fortune who say "Pat, I live in Bumboil, Arkansas with my husband and my two children, Gumby and Pokey (hi kids!). I work selling candy bars at intersections and collect pretty pieces of broken glass in my spare time." They live in rural areas, because frankly, they would get chewed up and spit out in an urban area.

[Kitty Herder]

60. The brain-drain in small towns is a real phenomenon.

Jobs that require degrees are hard to come by in small towns like mine, so most of the "smart" kids grow up and move away. Most of the jobs around here involve coal. Mining it, trucking it, or working at the power plant that burns it.

There are exceptions, of course. My mom came back home and became the editor of the tiny rag of a newspaper. The salutatorian of my class and her husband came back because they love the cowboy lifestyle. She's the mayor of her tiny town at age 31. I'm back, because I broke up with my fiance with whom I was living and needed a place to crash. (Not to mention my mommy.:cry:) But I'm planning on leaving again as soon as I can afford a place somewhere else because I hate it here and I can't find a decent job. But it's kind of a catch-22. I can't find a decent job and that makes it incredibly hard to save enough money to get the hell out of here.

[Venceremos]

29. My area is an anamoly?

I live in rural America....our county is geographically large but only has about 50,000 residents (nothing but farms and very small towns scattered throughout). We voted for Gore and Kerry by significant margins and Obama is very popular here. And the Repuiblicans here are predominately moderate, not the Fox News crowd. Our house is an an unincorporated area but the closest small town promotes itself as progressive and has a diverse population for a town its size.

So please, don't stereotype all small towns as full of knuckle draggers.

[El Pinko]

33. True that all rural areas are not like that - New England is different, too.

My point is not to say that "all small towns are bad". It's just that they are NOT Norman Rockwell and big towns and cities are not Sodom and Gomorrah.


The same could be said for my county. Most of Texas went for POS Bush in 2000 & 2004, but El Paso has been solid red for ages and continues to be.


I'm sure there are a lot of folks in bigger cities that would consider El Paso kind of a small town out in the desert.

[Venceremos]

37. Did you mean El Paso is blue?

I lived in Texas in the early 1980's (Dallas and Austin), moved there from a smallish town in Illinois. Have to admit I was culture shocked by the brand of conservatism and racism I saw there. It was the first time I'd lived in a city, so in my naive young mind I thought most urban areas were racist and backwards!

[El Pinko]

68. Yes, For various reasons...

El Paso has been majority Mexican-American forever. Mexicans, catholics and labor groups are politically influential. Culturally and geographically, we are closer to Los Angeles and Albuquerque then any Texas city - in fact, we are the only Texas city in the Mountain Time zone. It's closer to Los Angeles than it is to Houston. We are always ignoreg and shortchanged by the legislature - which I think is in part because of our voting record and our ethnic makeup.

But yes, El Paso remains solid blue and a relatively nice, mellow tolerant place to live where the fundies are NOT in control. The cost of living here is dirt cheap.

[Tashca]

40. I'm with you

I've lived in several small towns and larger towns in Iowa, Illinois, and for a short time in Georgia. As far as I'm concerned there isn't a nickels worth of difference in the people from either. If you take the time to get to know people....If you respect them they respect you...

I am shocked at the anger and hatred I see here on this string. I had to double check and make sure I was at the right site.

We certainly don't need to perpetuate this myth of a difference between small and large town. I think there is already enough division in this country...

[Viva_La_Revolution]

31. #5! I grew up in one of those small towns. nt

[XemaSab]

32. I hear ya

I spent a year and a half of my life that I will never get back in Oakhurst, California.

Dear sweet JEBUS that place is a hick town! It's all fundies, tweekers, and Nazis. :(

[cornermouse]

34. That's turning the argument on it's head.

People in big cities routinely make it clear as has been mentioned multiple times in this thread that people in small towns are stupid, backwards, uneducated, prejudiced, and everything else that you can think of to throw at small town dwellers. And yet... If you look, it's not uncommon to find graduates from those same small towns who went on to become doctors, high level politicians, engineers, pharmacists, and upper level executives. In some cases, some of those who you hold in such disdain are apparently your parents and grandparents. Go figure.

[mrcheerful]

36. Reminds me about my childhood years in the mid 60's

we lived out in a rural area, gramps lived in town. We had to drive through the "black" side of town to get to gramps house. Every trip through the area mom would point out un painted houses, junk cars sitting in the yards, trash every where then without batting an eye she'd tell us kids how fortunate we were to live in our area instead of around blacks.

Got a real beating when I pointed out to mom that 6 of the houses near us were nothing more then one room shacks with tar paper where the siding should have been , dirt floors, outside toilets ( out houses ) junk cars sitting in the yards, no electricity, where grass grew it was uncut, mostly it was just bare ground around the shacks and the folks who lived in them had 10 to 14 kids running the woods wild. Mom was upset because I was picking on our nice neighbors, lol. About the only difference I could see were the blacks had electricity and indoor plumbing with running water. Have to admit though one of the shacks did have a bath tub, it was sitting by the front door in plain site, over flowing with dirty water for breeding skeeters.

[2rth2pwr]

38. Are an Obama advisor?

Every time we talk about small town folk like they are those stupid Bible-thumpin', shotgun-pumpin',

outhouse-dumpin', sibling-humpin , immigrant-trumpin', backwoods mumblin' , genital-itching,

inbred racists we get closer and closer to the Presidency.

[mrcheerful]

39. I take it you be city folk. When you see babies running around the store in diapers

drinking coke out of a baby bottle, come back and we will talk.

[2rth2pwr]

43. ...

Small-town people of modest means and limited education are not fixated on cultural issues. Rather, it is affluent, college-educated people living in cities and suburbs who are most exercised by guns and religion. In contemporary American politics, social issues are the opiate of the elites.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/opinion/17bartels.html?ex=1366171200&en=d5a708ef7390069c&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss


But Obama’s words are worth scrutinizing because they reflect a bedrock belief on the left, the conviction that Republicans have seduced blue-collar whites by diverting their focus from economic issues toward the emotional social issues that Obama cited. That perspective reached its apotheosis in "What’s the Matter With Kansas? How Conservatives Won the Heart of America," the 2004 best-seller by Thomas Frank that portrayed Republican blue-collar gains as a form of mass “derangement” driven by the “hallucinatory appeal” of “cultural wedge issues like guns and abortion.” Physically, Obama was in California when he described the working-class as “bitter,” but mentally he was in Frank’s Kansas.

...Most important, the idea that working-class people have been uniquely bamboozled to vote on their cultural affinities rather than their economic status ignores the parallel change at the top of the income ladder. As Obama might have noticed in San Francisco, a growing number of upper-income and well-educated Americans are also voting against their “class interests,” preferring Democrats even though the party routinely supports raising taxes on top earners. In presidential elections from 1960 through 1972, Democrats won, on average, only 37 percent of the votes of white college graduates. Since 1992, they have won an average of 47 percent. Those voters (especially the ones with graduate degrees) have trended Democratic largely because they hold liberal positions on the same social and foreign-policy issues that helped Republicans crack the working class. Culture is replacing class as the glue of both parties’ coalitions.
http://www.nationaljournal.com/njmagazine/politicalconnections.php

[mrcheerful]

64. What was going on in between 1960 and 1972?

Civil rights, nam war, the Beetles, womens rights, unions getting more for the factory worker, the Japanese invasion, hippies, LSD, college drop outs, protesters, democratic support for protesters, MLK, RK, murder, Charles Manson, Deep throat, liberal backing of freedom of speech, press and porn, Acid rock, war protest songs, The 1968 Chicago police riot at the democratic convention, the draft, Canada to avoid the draft, The Hells Angles.

Why do you think Reagans family values and Nixons Law and Order platforms went over so well with the uneducated and factory workers? Fear of the criminal hippies or bikers that were going to rape their daughters and turn them into LSD zombies. Remember young people of college age refused to vote after Bobby K was murdered, in fact most wouldn't vote as they saw it as voting for the man, Nixon type squares. Turn on, tune in and drop out, was the cry of the youth.

Then on the other side of the aisle, you had the Young Republicans, the neo conservatives, the war hawks, tough on crime Supporters. See thats what 1960 to 1972 was about.

Sure college students voting democratic was low. Thats because they were dropping out of college or headed to Canada or going off to war. Percentages are meaningless when trying to prove a point in the past without taking into account what was going on at the time.

[El Pinko]

69. I appreciate this info, and I agree that it can be hot-button to mention this stuff...

...but I'm really not specifically talking about what Obama said, nor do I intend to carry his water on this. Maybe he shouldn't have made those "bitter" comments. I don't know. They didn't bother me because I *AM* bitter about the exportation of jobs overseas and I think all Americans should be. I don't cling to guns, religion or bigotry as a result, though like that's going to bring the jobs back?

Seriously, and I may have composed the OP poorly - my main point is not to say "all small towns are bad". I'm just saying that in many ways, many of them are not all they're cracked up to be by this stupid media that keeps pandering to their inferiority complexes about being hicks so that national candidates have to walk on eggshells to avoid damaging rural voters' delicate self-esteem, but it's perfectly fine to characterize San Franciscans and New Yorkers as out-of-touch, bourgeois latte-swilling, pinky-lifting fey intellectual liberal snobs.

THAT's what I'm sick of.

I am truly sorry that this thread has kind of turned into a small-town-bashing party. That's my fault and I apologize.

[2rth2pwr]

76. You might find this interesting

John McWhorter (Obama supporter) talks about Obama's comments. http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/10317?in=00:01:19&out=00:07:57

[DrCory]

86. I've seen this...

and worse in the big city. Guess that cancels out your statement, eh?

[mrcheerful]

91. Small town folks do travel into the big cities ya know? Btw, I knew a woman that

grew up in small town america and moved into a city, yep all 10 of her kids ran around in diapers drinking coke out of baby bottles. So in another words, you can take the country girl out of the country but you can't take the country out of the girl. :rofl:

[Nikia]

41. I suppose that it is because rural voters are an important minority voting block

The majority of them may be white, but they are a minority in the fact that they are smaller in numbers, tend to be poorer economically, and have less power in general in this country.
I think that whereever you go that you can find "good" people and liberals.
I admit that I have had bad experiences living in this small Wisconsin town and plan on moving to a bigger town with at least a 5 figure population when I find a new job. I grew up in a town with a low five figure population, which you would probably consider rual and small town, for which I have more sympathy. When I go back though, I realize that people are becoming more bitter and more for themselves than they were 10-20 years ago and that perhaps I would not feel very welcome if I was moving there for the first time. Regardless, I don't think that rural and small town Americans should be ignored and think that there have been some bad things happening in those areas which are a symptom of the problems that affect all Americans.
As far as racism, it depends on the town. Some urban areas are very racist and segregated. Some small towns, with more than a few non white families, are actually more integrated.

[spoony]

42. Boy, way to live down to the stereotype!

You spend a whole post acting like a snob, then decry the media for calling you one. Fucking hell.

[Zynx]

45. There isn't any unified urban/suburban mentality. Suburban people have a broad range

of views that range from almost rural to more of a city mentality. This OP is not constructive other than the fact it expresses frustration.

[Two Americas]

46. I don't care either

Don't be in touch with rural America. I don't care what you do. But I do care about the party and the country, and the generalizations and stereotypes expressed in your post are poison and severely cripple the party.

Being an elitist is a matter of expressing certain attitudes, not how much your income is.

If people want to fight a culture war against rural people, or against their bigoted stereotype of rural people, they should do it outside of the party.

[sutz12]

48. For me, there is a huge framing issue here...

Much of the "small town bias" the media fawns over seems to be attached to the extreme RW fundy church crowd IMO. Those are the people I'm tired of "respecting" and "giving a voice to." In my mind it's not so much about "small town" vs "urbanite" as much as it is about fundy religionists vs rational people--both of faith and non-faith.

We all need to work on the basic "We're all in this together" mode of thinking and start really working on our problems: urban, suburban and rural. For me, that is the true Democratic Party message. The farm belt used to be solidly blue, until the fundies and the corporatists moved in and brainwashed them.

[yella_dawg]

51. You're cranking on small town America based on your experience in Bowie?

Trust me. It ain't like that. Even those small-town folks in Jack and Wise county think Montague county is a loonie farm. The place is some kind of pathological aberration. Get over it.

[El Pinko]

70. LOL- thanks for the validation, though!

Didn't know Bowie was so notorious!

[treestar]

52. I get sick of any group being deemed inherently more valuable

that the rest of us.

I even include the military!

[Kitty Herder]

65. Yes!

Rural people are not more valuable than city people and neither are their opinions.

Military people are not more valuable than non-military people and neither are their opinions.

True elitists, who live in mansions, own lots of stock, munch on caviar and, btw, tend to be conservative, not liberal, for obvious reasons are not more valuable than the rest of us and neither are their opinions.

[WildEyedLiberal]

53. What a hateful post

I'm from a small, rural farming community in the middle of Illinois. No, it's not particularly "progressive" by DU standards, but it sure as hell isn't full of your ugly stereotypes of unwashed racist illiterate mouthbreathers, either. I find it exceedingly ironic that you bristle with umbrage over the stereotype of city-dwellers as being elitist brie-and-chamblis swilling hybrid-driving snobs, yet have no problem in dealing with equally cruel and dehumanizing stereotypes of people from non-urban areas.

People here are hurting BAD - the new "global" economy has no place for small towns and their residents anymore. All people want is to provide for their families. They love their hometowns and don't want them to shrivel away and die - because whether you want to admit it or not, when the small towns die, an irreplacable piece of the American soul dies with them.

You know, I think I understand what you're trying to say. No, small towns aren't the only place in America where wholesome values and patriotism can be found. Yes, oftentimes, small towns tend to be conservative in many ways. Yes, the media meme that urban liberals are out of touch or don't have morals is idiotic and wrong. But when you throw in ugly unnecessary vitriol like "small town idiots" and saying that you don't "give a crap" what people in small towns think or insinuating that we're all racists (because, you know, all cities are harmonious multicultural paradises of racial unity and love), then you negate all of that and become no better than the media blatherers who you claim to hate. Worse, you begin to embody the stereotype they've created - that liberals pay lip service to, but don't really give a fuck about, the common working class citizen.

[MuseRider]

59. I think we are going to find

that rather than totally disappearing many of our small towns will thrive, especially if they are agricultural. Now we just have to make it through the next bunch of very hard years, hopefully we will because when the shit hits the fan we will be there providing good quality, healthy food at a price others can actually afford (hopefully, I can be such a pollyanna sometimes). Heck I am hoping for horseback to become a good way to travel again so I can unload some of these beasts!

Actually, I have to say that the tiny little place I live now is about the coolest place I have ever been. Yes there are a few intolerant sorts and the guy who keeps his wife hidden inside the house except when he gets on a toot and she is allowed out to watch him fire off his gun at 3 AM in the middle of our 1/2 block town. Mostly it is a bunch of old hippies like me and environmentalist types and we work together to clean up our little town, ID the local varmints and just have a wonderful quiet existence. Even the intolerant souls here would give you the shirt off their backs. Country welfare is just that, we help each other with everything. Maybe I am just lucky but I am sitting here on my deck overlooking my pond and the sunset with nothing but the ducks, songbirds and frogs and a few cows lowing from across the road and loving it. People pay to come to places like where I live to get away but they have no problem dissing it while they are away. They should be darned glad we are trying to preserve it.

Now this intolerant rube must get things together because I am going to a Jazz and Poetry dinner at the Brown V Board Museum. Gosh, small town life sure sucks.

[El Pinko]

74. I am the common, working-class citizen.

"Worse, you begin to embody the stereotype they've created - that liberals pay lip service to, but don't really give a fuck about, the common working class citizen."


And I'm as bitter as any rural voter Obama might have cited about what both the democrats and republicans have done via their trade and tax policies to the working class of this country.

That's why this post is NOT a defense of Obama - while I agree that a lot of people are angry, I don't see where Obama is going to change NAFTA or bring back jobs at all. In fact he's talking about tax cuts in a time when we have an explosion of debt.


"No, small towns aren't the only place in America where wholesome values and patriotism can be found. "

Even with this post, you validate the nonsense Mayberry meme. Wholesome values are not PRIMARILY found in small towns. They are found in big cities, and even suburbs.

The problem is that so many people have confused fundie religion with wholesome (it's not) and mindless flag-waving with patriotism (it's not).

Wholesome is pulling over on a busy freeway with hundreds of cars whizzing by to help a lady change her tire.

Patriotism is a whole neighborhood getting together and cleaning glass and junk from a vacant lot to make a community garden.


Sure, there are some major problems in the cities as well, but I would posit that small towns are no safer, no more wholesome, and no more patriotic than cities at ALL. They're just a lot whiter and more Christian, and too many people equate those things with virtue.

[WildEyedLiberal]

78. Yeah? So am I. I just get sick of people acting like small town residents are all hicks

I don't think I ever said that small towns are "primarily" where wholesome values are found. You were raging against the claim that ONLY small towns have "all-American values" and I was agreeing with you - yes, "wholesome" values are found in plenty of other places, too. And that doesn't even touch the "small towns are no safer" crap - that's just delusional. Crime statistics don't lie.

Guess what? Small towns also aren't the ONLY place where you'll find fundamentalism and "mindless flag waving." I guess things are much simpler in your little world where every city resident is a liberal culturally sensitive secular humanist and every rural person is a stupid, backwards flag-wavin' fundamentalist hillbilly.

I still fail to see how you're any better than the talking heads who perpetuate the meme that you hate so much about city dwellers being latte sipping out of touch elitists. Your vitriol against people of small towns - who are every bit as deserving of economic opportunity and concern as you - is every bit as ugly and stereotypical.

[El Pinko]

82. C'mon, let's be real...

If I said "black people can be upstanding, law-abiding citizens too" , then everone would jump all over me for making such an offensive statement implying that upstanding blacks are not the norm.

That's the same thing you did by saying "No, small towns aren't the only place in America where wholesome values and patriotism can be found."

It sounds like you've bought into the assumption that small-towns are patriotism central, but in the cities, patriotism is an afterthought - at least that's how I took it.



"Crime statistics don't lie". True, crime rates in rural and suburban areas are somewhat lower than urban areas, but the urban areas average in the worst of ghettoes, which are densely populated and do not reflect the overall crime rate in cities. I would feel no safer on a rural street corner than I would in a normal, non-ghetto city street corner.


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/usrv98.txt


As for the rest of your comments, I realize there are some ignoramuses in the cities (and a lot more in the suburbs), but in the country it's hard to find people who aren't. At least in the city and most burbs, you can avoid those types.

[WildEyedLiberal]

100. "But in the country it's hard to find people who aren't"

So you defend your bigotry to the last. How ugly and how decidedly un-progressive. I'd challenge you to come to my town and treat the people there like they are worth less than the dirt beneath your feet - as you are doing all over this thread - but you won't. It's much easier to maintain your ugly biases if you don't ever have to interact with the people you hate. This shit is shameful and has no place on a message board allegedly populated by "liberals." I thought liberals championed the working class and the poor - or is that only if they're urban?

[alarimer]

90. That is not the point of the OP.

The point is that there is this stereotype of small towns being all that is right and good in the US, when in fact it is often the opposite.

[WildEyedLiberal]

99. I guess you didn't read where he referred to "small town idiots" and implied that we're racist

"When in fact it is often the opposite" - yes, cities are idyllic visions of progressive love and harmony. Look, I LIKE cities and I will probably move to one, because as much as I like my little town, there's not a lot to do there in the field in which I have my degree. But you and the OP seem oblivious to the fact that you are advancing every bit as ugly a stereotype as the MSM does.

[El Pinko]

104. Actually, it was "small town idiocy" - there is a difference.

"I am so SICK of politicians pandering to small-town idiocy."

And I don't back away from that statement. When politicians pander to rural people's extremist notions about guns, god and gays (because that's what it boils down to isn't it?) as a way os skirting the REAL issues of jobs, offshoring, income and wealth inequality, than that is destructive to everyone, rural or urban. John Edwards was the only candidate that showed any interest in these issues, and rural voters didn't seem to be biting - because for some reason they are STILL easily distracted with the shiny baubles of "guns, god and gays". Of course there are a lot of suburban voters falling into this trap, too. But how is constantly pandering to them and paying lip service to the fake mayberry image going to help? what the hell is the point of Hillary adopting a rural twang every time she gets out in the boonies? Okay, I'm just rambling now.

Maybe I am advancing a stereotype. I wish there was no truth to it. I wish there were a lot more exceptions to it.

On my drive through the south in 2004, I felt uncomfortable getting out of my car in some towns because there were confederate hate flags flying everywhere and I have an Asian wife and mixed kids. We went into one curio shop that still had mammy figurines and little watermelon-eating pickaninny boy figurines. What the hell am I supposed to think about communities where selling such things and flying slavery flags is socially acceptable? They obviously couldn't care less how those things make non-whites feel. And yet we as city dwellers (do I qualify as one, living in El Paso?) are expected to hold country folk with this sort of ridiculous reverence. Ugh.

[WildEyedLiberal]

109. So all "country folk" live in the deep south and fly confederate flags and sell mammy figures?

I just love how you think you know what every single "country person" in America is like because you drove through some shithole in Alabama or wherever the hell. I suppose I could tell you that I've never seen anything that blatantly offensive in my hometown or that I knew NO ONE growing up who used the n-word and in fact didn't encounter that kind of virulent racism until I met people at college, but it's obvious that you've made up your mind that the only people who are racist or backwards are people from rural USA, which you apparently think is some monolithic entity that resembles the Jim Crow deep South.

And now you have the hilarious nerve to blame rural people for not voting for John Edwards? All those stupid bumpkins in Iowa, is that it? Yeah, they voted for - gasp - Barack Obama, who apparently "panders" the least to "small town folk" of all the candidates. I guess people in rural areas aren't the stupid monkeys you seem to think they are.

[El Pinko]

114. I've already said in the OP and elsewhere that I know not all small towns are like that...

...but a LOT are.

I was annoyed at the way Edwards was ignored by the media in general and portrayed as a lefty, when he was the centrist of the Democratic field of right-wingers (except for Kucinich and Gravel)

I don't "blame" country and suburban voters for believeing the media line about Edwards, but it was unfortunate.

I didn't have a problem with Iowa or any other state that voted for Obama or Clinton - I think both of them are better candidates than was John Kerry, whose victory in Iowa in 2004 absolutely baffled me.

But with Iowa, you bring up another great example of rural pandering - the whole ethanol subsidy nightmare - a program that is completely destructive to both the environment and people's pocketbooks, but the only reason it exists is so politicians can pander to Iowa voters.

[MuseRider]

117. Well then...

"I don't "blame" country and suburban voters for believeing the media line about Edwards, but it was unfortunate." I guess then we can't blame you and all the other inflamed urbanites on this thread for becoming so divisive over the Mayberry small town ideals that the politicos are espousing. Sorry they made you fall right into their trap. PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE no matter where they live. I don't know anyone out here saying that they are better than anyone else, I guess the same can't be said for some of you city folks. It is the politicians and pundits that are doing this and people who fall into their traps enough to start up a hateful conversations and then start another about how the so called good people are using up all your tax dollars. Really, what is the point with all of this?

[knitter4democracy]

80. I entirely agree.

I grew up in rural Michigan. Yes, I ran into racism constantly and all sorts of nastiness. Yes, strangers or newcomers are stared at an gossiped about. Sure. But people will bend over backwards to help each other, dropping their work to run and help with a tractor that's broken down, get a car out of the mud, or watch a single mom's sick kid so she won't miss work, all of which happened to me and my mom.

I've lived in the city, and I pray I never will again. There's no community there. No one would give a rat's ass if their neighbor lived or died. We lived in a great apartment building, went to a decent church, and I taught in good schools. No one threw me a baby shower, no one helped us move in and out, and only once in awhile did anyone at church realize we couldn't afford most of their functions. That never would've happened in the towns where I grew up. Heck, teenaged moms got baby showers from friends and families and got presents from teachers, people help each other move all the time, and church stuff is usually just a potluck with some of the best cooking you'll ever eat.

We're in a smaller city now, and we're slowly becoming part of the community. I can breathe again. I can see the stars at night, drive not too far to get farm-fresh eggs or buy a half a bison, and our kids actually know our neighbors and play all around the neighborhood. Sure, I've run into racism--it was worse in Cleveland. Ignorance? Sure, but no different than some of the things I heard in Cleveland or hear from my in-laws who are city people. I'd rather live here or out in the country.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[depakid]

61. Trouble is, many in that region (and others) still have attitudes similar to what the OP described

and are reinforced daily by a steady of hate radio-which is usually the only game in town.

Every single time- I mean EVERY single time I have to travel to the South (where what's left of my family lives) I see and hear things that just make my jaw drop.

And not only about racism- but a host of things (sometimes from folks with college degrees).

To be fair, depending on location, the cities and suburbs have their share of fundies and irrational people, too.

[Fading Captain]

63. And if you paint with a broad brush

That all small-town folks are backward, or cling to these things that "more enlightened folks" escape, then you're pissing all over them and being just as unfair as a racist.

[depakid]

67. Hopefully, I'm not pissing on everyone -just making a general comment based on personal observations

about where I'm most likely to hear whack things....

Attitudes, beliefs and values (of any sort) tend to be more insular and more strongly reinforced in rural as opposed to urban areas, where there's greater diversity.

Joe Bagent's book "Deer Hunting with Jesus" pretty well sums up my experiences in this regard- and like others who've read it, it many ways I find that it's a depressing sociological fact of life in many places.

[El Pinko]

72. I almost went nuts driving through the South from Florida to El Paso one time...

...during the entire trip (2004) , for huge long swaths, the ONLY thing we could find on the radio was 20% country-western, 30% right-wing hate, and 50% bible stuff. It was unbelievable.

And people gripe about all the Spanish on the radio here in El Paso - I'll take that over wall-to-wall bible and hate.

[depakid]

77. That sort of "Reason Free America" radio predominates in large swarths of the intermountain west

as well- you find it for hours, even along the I-5 corridor.

If you're looking for talk on anything other than sports on the public airwaves, literally ALL there is, outside of the occasional public radio program is far right nastiness. And the vast majority of it isn't local.

It's ubiquitous- generic piped in crap- not unlike the chain stores and fast food outlets that have supplanted cherished local businesses and restaurants- where once you could enjoy (or not) the distinctive ccoking and the culture that the regions had to offer.

[L. Coyote]

62. There is no US and THEM, just us that don't say that and them that do.

Sorry about the irony! :rofl:

[LWolf]

66. I live rurally, near a small town,

and I don't appreciate your characterization.

[El Pinko]

73. The main characterization was intended to be about the media and its pandering to rural people...

...but my anecdotes from my youth ended up dominating and giving the post more of an anti-rural flavor than I intended and I apologize for that.

But I do think that the points that a.) The media panders too much to small-town people's insecurities and inferiority complexes and b.) Small-towns are not the Mayberry-apple-pie fantasy they're often portrayed as - are valid.

[LWolf]

88. You're right about that.

I've never found "Mayberry."

And I've found that the MSM panders to whatever will best manipulate the masses; I can't argue that.

It's true that rural places tend to be republican; heavily xtian and gun loving.

Many of the people in my rural community are also quite anti-intellectual, and there are bush fans here.

There are also many lifelong republicans who despise GWB, and many people, regardless of party affiliation, who are thoughtful, reasonable, and sincere about their political leanings and their choices at the ballot box.

While Democrats don't hold a majority here, they do have a strong voice.

Apology accepted.

:hi:

[alcibiades_mystery]

71. I grew up in NYC, and I live in Chicago

I'm also sick and tired of being the villain in these people's fucking psychodramas. Then they yell and scream that it's only "young, well-educated urbanites that support so-and-so," as if that's a fucking bad thing. Sorry for actually struggling through the public education system in a large metropolitan area and being successful. I know that makes me an asshole, but that's just life. Every time you see one of these murder shows, it's like "Oh, we expect this sort of thing to happen in New York City, but not in our precious small town community!" Here's a hint, assholes: that sort of thing does NOT happen in New York City, and if it did, it would be as big a story as it is in your podunk backwater, "ya hear?" Fuck you.

Fucking "heartland." "Real America." Fuck you.

[MuseRider]

75. Niiiice.

With love from the fucking heartland. :eyes:

By the way, it certainly is not your success that makes you an asshole.

[newfie11]

115. Hey I second that!!!!!!!

I am sorry that so many seem to think we suck. In my area we have Mexicans, Blacks, whites. I have not heard anyone complain about any ones ethnic background. Now I have sisters in large cities in Fla who will be happy to bitch about Cubans,Blacks,and Mexicans.
This area is very rural. If someone needs help I can tell you there is a neighbor (no matter what color or religion) that is willing to help.
You have the same problems you are talking about in large cities but you don't know the people because there are so many.

[girl gone mad]

107. I live in a small town..

and I usually spend several months a year in Chicago. Both have their pluses and minuses. Open your mind a little bit.

29 people were shot in Chicago over the weekend. I think my small town had one shooting in the last 5 years, and that was accidental.

I do not think that small towns on the whole are as solidly conservative as they were even 3 years ago.

[Malikshah]

79. Personally, I want a candidate who's in touch with the world.

Small town, big city US isn't enough.

I don't care if you're from Butcher Holler or EnWhyCee--neither has a monopoly on morality or wisdom.

People need to get over those myths and realize that there's a big wide world out there of which we are a part--currently, we're viewed as the bully who's fallen down and can't get up.

I'd like to see a President who can restore some semblance of leadership and reason to this country. To create a government that folks are not afraid of. To restore respect for various institutions by demanding that these institutions earn that respect back.

There is *no* heartland to this country of ours--no one may lay claim to it. That is not what the U.S. is all about.

[El Pinko]

83. Hear, hear.

I think yours is the best comment in the whole thread.

[BreweryYardRat]

84. Small towns do seem to screw some folks up.

Those comments you heard...

Daaamn. I can't even fathom that, and I've heard my fair share of bigoted remarks.

[alarimer]

89. Yes this is very true. I have seen it myself.

Coshocton, OH, around 1988 or so. My folks moved there after I graduated high school so I was only there in summers. It was a living hell. In the summers I worked at McDonalds. What a hellish place that was. Absolutely nothing to do and nothing going on. Of course I was the one with a "bad attitude" because I knew I could do something better for myself than McDonalds.

[MadHound]

92. As one who's moved from the urban to the rural area,

You may not be economically elitist, but you are certainly being intellectually and morally elitist, and frankly my friend, your own ignorance is showing.

You are basing your opinions on observations that you made twenty years ago in a single setting. Guess what, bum fuck N. Texas(or hell, the entirety of Texas for that matter) doesn't monolithically represent the attitudes and mindset of rural America. Nor does what you observed twenty years ago in any way represent what is going on in rural America today.

And frankly, for that matter, this pandering to "small town values" that both the 'Pugs and Dems engage in is nothing more than feel good nostalgia propaganda directed at those fine conservative folks in the suburbs, not those of us who actually live in the country. Quite frankly, politicians really don't give a good goddamn about people in the country, much like the rest of the US population. They realize that our votes are scarce on the ground and won't effect an election. What they're aiming for is the suburban white voter, and the best way for them to do that is invoke the mythical small town of the past, pump up those feelings of nostalgia and get those votes. For an intelligent urbanite pal, you're pretty ignorant when it comes to some things.

But hey, if you really want to take a look, here's a few facts for you. Rural areas have a higher graduation rate than urban areas. Twenty three percent of rural Americans have a college degree, as opposed to the twenty seven percent rate for the country as a whole. However rural areas are becoming better educated faster than urban areas. Over the past thirty years the rate of four year degree attainment has gone up over three hundred percent.

As far as attitudes are concerned, once again you are stereotyping. There are a wide variety of people out in the country. Yes, there are rednecks out here. But there are also old sixties hippies who went back to the land, as have many other ex urbanites ever since. There are those who come out to escape the urban madness, for health reasons, to get a better sense of freedom, to not be tied to the urban infrastructure and to be self sufficient and to be caretakers of the land. Yes, there are conservative Christians out here, there are also Unitarians, Catholics, Wiccans, atheists, agnostics, Muslims and many many others.

The politics are changing also. If you go back an look at the election maps from 2006 and 2004, in many cases the highest percentage of conservatives reside not in the country, but in the 'burbs, all those Americans who participated in white flight, and continue to do so. Frankly, most rural Americans are becoming increasingly liberal, and historically some of the most widespread Populist and Progressive movements have originated in the country.

And while you might not give a damn what we in the country think, one think you had better become aware of, you need the country, you need the food. The vast majority of farmers out here are not values voters, what they want is for a fair shake in farming from the government and corporate America, because we've been getting the short end of the stick for thirty plus years now. That's the top concern of rural Americans. Like I said earlier, most of that values crap is a direct appeal to the burbs, not to the country folk. Get a fucking clue.

So yes, you are being an elitist asshole. I'm not burned by what Obama said, and neither are most of the folks out here in the country. But people like you really do piss us off, because you are engaging in stereotypes and bullshit, not really going out and discovering what it's like in the country. But that's OK, keep to your little urban enclave pal, with your preconceived and out of date prejudices. We don't need another urban asshole out here in the country. We'll get along without your big brain just fine out here, we've got more than a few PhD's, college profs, Mensa candidates, etc. and don't need some elitist no nothing trying to reshape the place into his own preconceived ideals.

[Thothmes]

101. Bravo, well spoken.

[El Pinko]

105. "urban enclave" - LOL

Please visit El Paso sometime. It's many things, but an "urban enclave", it ain't.

PS - I get where you're coming from - sorry if you don't get where I'm coming from.

[MadHound]

112. I get where you're coming from, I simply happen to think that you're wrong

Hell, years and years ago, I would have agreed with what you said. Then I actually moved out into the country and found out differently. After knocking about again in urban areas myself for awhile, now that I've finally made it back to the country, I find your assumptions and conclusions are even less true today.

I also realize that your mileage may vary, what goes on in Texas probably isn't going on here in Missouri, for better or worse. So I suggest that you get out and about and check out what rural life is like elsewhere in the country, not just in the wilds of Texas.

[newfie11]

116. Couldn't have said it any better!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Darth_Kitten]

93. Bravo................

I grew up in what was considered an upper-middle class company town. You wouldn't know how many of my contemparies committed suicide.

Gotta love them small town values. :eyes: People are people no matter where they live. I'll prefer to take people on an individual basis, thank you. :)

[JitterbugPerfume]

94. I agree100%

I get e mails from my "small town "relation and (former) friends that makes me want to scream.Those peoples minds are welded shut , and they are proud of it .As long as they can hate everything that isn't red , white and blue (them niggers, spicks and radical Islamists, as one recently called Obama)they are smug in the realisation that they are informing me of the truth.


I told one of them recently that I am not only a Democrat, but also an athiest and she said


NO YOU'RE NOT"


I give up

[MuseRider]

95. LOL "NO YOU"RE NOT"

That is funny and almost the very same response that I got/get from my relatives in the big city. Just saying. People are people everywhere you go. Some here, some there. Rural folks are kind of trapped in some places and naturally your environment will play into how you think if you are the type of person who is uncomfortable being different and I think most people are uncomfortable with that. When your fundie church and Rush all day in your tractor are your two main influences this is what happens. Rather than say nasty things about them how about we all try and change their minds? Many already have and some have and don't know it yet but they are getting closer all the time. Insulting them is never going to work.

[cali]

96. Well, the folks in my very small village are nothing

like the people you're talking about.

[DCKit]

98. Rambling, poorly written, but an "A" for content. n/t

[ecstatic]

102. LOL. Are you a college prof? nt

[misanthrope]

103. My experience was much the same...

...growing up in Birmingham, Alabama (MSA of close to a million) and living my adulthood in Mobile, Alabama (MSA of nearly 500,000). I'm just completely exasperated by it, fed up.

[girl gone mad]

106. Valid points..

but I also want to state that my small Texas town is nearly 50% African-American and Hispanic. Obama got more votes than McCain or Clinton here.

[limit18]

108. I'll just go outside and find a little love...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7nAk0iUuoY

[readmoreoften]

110. Guess what? I hear those comments in Big Urban America too.

Big Urban America is where I saw a Black man and a Black woman scream HEIL HITLER and JESUS KILLERS at a camper full of little Jewish kids.

Big Urban America is where my partner was escorted out of Carnegie Hall by security for using the women's bathroom, even though she's a woman.

Big Urban America is where my partner was escorted out of the Whole Foods Bathroom for using the men's bathroom, after being sick of getting kicked out of women's rooms for not being feminine enough.

Big Urban America is where the Italian guys down the street from me laughed about beating up the "moolies".

Big Urban America is where I saw a group of pro-Palestinian protesters get shouted down by a group of Hasidim.

Big Urban America is where my pro-labor Arab neighbor said "between you and me, our real problem is the Jews, no?"

Big Urban America is where Sakia Gunn got stabbed for being a lesbian and where Kevin Avian got beat down for being a gay man.

So let's not act like Big Urban America is so intelligent and kind hearted...

[mrbluto]

111. There is also the "mooch" factor.

Turns out, if I recall correctly, most red states (where there is more rural towns) are net beneficiaries of the federal government. They pay some, but get far more back. We pay a lot, don't as much back and have to listen to pabulum about how un-selfreliant and morally bankrupt we all are. Adding insult to injury. It's a dynamic Karl Rove might love.

There was also an article in a recent Harper's monthly that pointed out that the even state-by-state, rather than per-capita, distribution of infrastructure funds has cause crippling economic loss to blue states, and vast inefficiencies nationally.

If you look closely at the situation the reason for this, or at least the main part (ala Pareto), is due to uneven political power. Low population states have more voting power per capita - the subsidies they receive are related to that. These red states are conservative, where they used to be more populist, because people who want to game our political system immediately see that you get the most political power for one's efforts in these states.

Right down to it's foundations - districting, voting mechanisms, undue respect for party organizations, campaign finance, and media ownership - this democracy is intrinsically sick. It is only the general population's unarticulated, yet still very real, liberal sentiments (i.e. trial by jury, free speech, privacy, etc.) that have held this system together as long as it has held over the past few decades. Considering the success of republicans at setting us against each other over various issues (any but the one true class divide) I'm not laying any bets about how much longer before there's some real and wide spread violence.

Either O or C - they'll have a tough row to hoe.

Most likely the next four years is gonna be one big damaging game of pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey with a huge risk that the republicans get to subsequently usher in the sort of fascism they've been salivating over for decades.

McCain? don't even ask what I think he'll do, and he's supposed to be one of the good ones. He'll do a Nancy Pelosi roll-over on all our interests if he gains the the presidency. They have too much on him and, due to age, he's kind of a short timer if you think about it.

[ColbertWatcher]

113. McCain and the GOP are out of touch...

...McCain doesn't think people are suffering unless they have been held captive for 5 1/2 years, like he was.

Freakin' coward.

[stimbox]

118. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours

:bounce: