Branch Davidian Massacre 15 years later. I still don't understand.

[El Supremo]

I was out of the country at the time. All the information I got was from the International Herald Tribune or short wave radio - and it wasn't very much.

I have never read anything since that really explained it. Was this a necessary but tragic incident or did Janet Reno and Bill Clinton really fuck up?

Opinions please!

[RC]

1. Janet Reno and Bill Clinton inherited it.

Janet Reno was hand fed the proper information to get her to make the decisions they wanted. Another republican scandal. The fed could have arrested David Koresh any time they wanted because he went into town on a regular basis.

[KharmaTrain]

26. Bingo...This Was More Residual From Poppy Bush

This kinda strains the old memory cells, but IRC, it was Poppy's man who was in charge of the raid...which occured prior to Clinton being inaugurated...and this dude kept both Clinton and Reno in the dark about what was going on.

Also this was in the wake of Ruby Ridge...another incident many wingnuts blame on Clinton despite it happening before he was even elected.

[reformedrethug]

43. Sorry but you remember incorrectly,

"On February 28, 1993, the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) attempted to execute a search warrant at the Branch Davidian ranch at Mount Carmel, a property located nine miles (14 km) east-northeast of Waco, Texas. An exchange of gunfire resulted in the deaths of four agents and six Davidians. A subsequent 51-day siege by the Federal Bureau of Investigation ended on April 19 when fire destroyed the compound. Seventy-six people, including 21 children and two pregnant women, along with Davidian leader Vernon Wayne Howell, better known as David Koresh, died in the fire. This has come to be known as the Waco Siege or the Waco Massacre."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege

Not that I am placing the blame on Clinton/Reno because the investigation started back in May of 92 which was Bush Sr's time,

Here is another version of the incident:
http://www.islandone.org/Politics/Waco.McCurry.html
And one more
http://www.serendipity.li/waco.html

[KharmaTrain]

44. Look Up Richard Rogers...

http://www.cesnur.org/testi/waco4.htm

He was the agent in charge...also, as I recalled, was involved in the Ruby Ridge situation. While the seige took place right after Clinton took office, the operation had been planned prior to that date. He called the shots on that day and the link is to the investigation into what really happened. As I say, it'd been a long time ago and this helped refresh my memory...hope it clears things up here as well...

[reformedrethug]

46. thats why

I posted the other links, a little more info on what went down. They show that the planning went on way before Clinton was sworn in so that lays the blame mainly on Bush Sr and his cronies.

[KharmaTrain]

50. Thank You For The Additional Info

I remember the '99 investigation and how the right wing tried to pin this on Reno...but it was jumbled up with so much other crap that was going on at the time...the endless investigations and non-stop attacks on the Clinton administration. A similar effort was done on the first WTC attack.

Cheers...

[joeybee12]

27. Yup, Janet inherited it, was lied to about it from Louis Freeh's FBI..

..and it was a disaster. But Janet has balls and took responsibility.

[RaleighNCDUer]

2. Clinton and Reno were 2500 miles away.

When the ATF tank breached the wall of the compound, fires broke out in 6 different locations - the fire was not the result of the attack, other than that the attack precipitated the setting of the fires by the true believers, who killed themselves and the innocents with them. Since most the children were found in the bus/bunker it appeared that they thought the kids would be safe from the fire they were setting - not thinking that the fire would cause them to be axphixiated.

It was unnecessary, in that they were at an impasse and could have been left that way, but at that time I don't know that anybody predicted the Davidians would choose mass suicide (and murder) to surrender.

After Jonestown, though, they SHOULD have expected it. But there were people on the scene who downplayed how nuts they were - remember, it was a sympathizer's tip off that started the whole thing and prevented the cops from making a surprise raid.

[Warpy]

3. The BATF, which had been militarized under Reagan/BushI

made the mistake of going in with guns blazing even after they knew the compound had been tipped off about a possible raid. Once they did that, the outcome was inevitable, as anyone who knows the Apocalyptic nature of that cult would have to admit.

A reasonable discussion is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege

[seabeyond]

16. still, we are in u.s. our cops come knockin, you dont get to shoot...

if the people chose not to leave, and so many and weapons, .... what, do you pretend you really werent going to arrest or that they are doing anything wrong and leave them alone. even without a tip and such big place and so many guns, if they wanted to shoot it out (and they obviously did) what does it matter.

i never got the anger at atf for waco. i think the pissed goes to davidan

[High Plains]

35. The ATF wanted a public relations coup.

They could have arrested Koresh at any time.

But instead, they staged a fancy raid replete with media in the hopes they could burnish their image. Four of them died for their stupidity.

There is also some dispute about who shot first during the initial raid, if I recall correctly.

[seabeyond]

37. all that being said.... i am into facts. and though some may say

or there may be question, i think what has been brought out is that koresh men opened fired.

regardless....
cops have warrant.
serve warrant
fired upon.

fbi having cameras there and staging it really has nothing to do with the facts or responsibility. imo. we can all sit there and say what an ass freeh is, and know why he did this and all.

[Warpy]

39. The anger is over the stupidly macho raid

when Koresh could have been picked up in town just about any time, along with the rest of the leaders of that cesspit.

Once they'd gone in and confirmed the Apolcalypse was in progress, the whole thing was decided and the outcome inevitable.

[seabeyond]

45. i got that. and i agree. and i certainly know about stupid macho bullshit.... gotcha

then after the serious of having a shoot out i saw them back up and re think. and seemed to me at that point they took it serious and really put forth the effort to have an ok ending.

but i still bottom line it to... regardless of macho bullshit and is on atf shoulder, .... koresh responsible and only responsible for seige. it is just after the shoot out everyone then started thinking how they could have done it not to have shoot out and all say, pick him up when they came to town. i am thinking that probably they were not thinking there would be a high percentage that someone would actually do what he did.

we could go thru and see where something different might have worked differently. but we wont know if it did

what if the orders were he ever get picked up in town, go around shooting everyone in head immediately. then atf would be blamed for that fuck up.

[coriolis]

4. The nutball Koresh escalated and ignited it.

Sadly, idiots followed him...not unlike Jonestown.

[Bandit]

29. How did he escalate it?

By7 not doing the ATF's bidding? They came to his compound he didn't go to their's.

[seabeyond]

33. are you serious?

[Pavulon]

41. By killing federal officers

[usaftmo]

54. That photo is misleading.

The M-16 is on the left, and the AK-47 is on the right...the text underneath is switched around.

[Pavulon]

56. You are correct!

missed it.

[rgbecker]

5. What's worse is they (the ATF) had the situation under control and the

place blockaded. Why they decided to go in, driving armored vehicles into the place and probably starting the fires, is the question. The ATF said at the time they thought the davidians were going to start killing themselves (ref jonestown) etc. Seems to me they could have waited and solved the situation by talking or waiting for someone to start acting reasonably. Watching those tanks crashing into the place on TV and then watching it go up in flames, killing all those kids, burning them alive was enough for me forever. It was bound to put someone over the edge and apparently did. ie Tim McViegh (sp). I think Clinton and Reno were both too naive to understand the power of these entrenched washington power bases like the Military and the FBI and were forced into bad decisions by guys who want to do what they have been trained to do. I think Obama will also be tested when he gets in, but I'm moved by the supporters he has been gathering and HOPE that they will give him the power he will need to keep these guys in check.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

8. The ATF tried to "torture" the Davidians out. The FBI tried to negotiate, but couldn't compete with

blare lights all night and play the audio of rabbit killed by a coyote approach of the ATF.

It was ugly and, along with Somalia, a set up designed to to blame the killing of American citizens on Clinton's administration. That's what NPR says, anyway. :hi:

[MercutioATC]

10. Is it true that they play Nancy Sinatra to "torture" them out?

"These Boots Were Made For Walkin'" over and over and over at ear-shattering levels?

[Honeycombe8]

18. "I practice every day to find some clever lines to say to make the meaning come true"

"I practice every day to find some clever lines to say to make the meaning come true,
But then I think I'll wait until the evening gets late and I'm alone with you.
The time is right, your perfume fills my head, the stars get red and oh the night so blue.
And then I go and spoil it all by saying something stupid like "I love you""

[wtmusic]

13. Another example of torture's "effectiveness". nt

[El Supremo]

9. Good anayisis from a new member. Congrats!

The one thing I know is that Korech was bent on martyrdom.

[Orangepeel]

6. Well, besides Koresh being a lunatic with a messiah complex?

IMO, the only one to blame is him.

Although I do think that both in this crisis and the Elian Gonzales thing, Reno tended to follow a pattern of waiting too long to act and then using too much force.

[Bandit]

30. Clinton had been President for less than three months and Reno

had only been approved by the Senate less than a month before. She inherited a situation where she relied upon the officers on the ground.

[HughMoran]

7. Nice sig pic

Thought I'd post so you can see mine ;)

[El Supremo]

11. Thanks, you can copy it. I made a real bumper sticker at zazzle.com. But haven't released it yet.

[w8liftinglady]

55. cool..let us know when you do!

[MiniMe]

14. Can I get in on this?

[spoony]

12. Neither of those, the boots on the ground

shooting into a building full of burning people to keep them inside are entirely at fault. I remember seeing a photo of a little girl who died, not from fire, but from poisoning from the unbelievable amounts of chemical agents they put into the building. She was all contorted. This is what happens when you train domestic law enforcement, fed or not, to act like an invading army.

[MonkeyFunk]

24. I believe the people at fault

are the ones who murdered federal officers delivering a legal warrant.

No government on Earth gives citizens a legal right to kill its representatives doing their duty.

[seabeyond]

31. this is how i see. i dont get how people twist it so. also a govt agency

allow 51, 53 days for the thing to resolve peacefully? i think that is a pretty big deal too that so many ignore. i dont think these agents where huddled around saying how can me murder the children. cook them. i dont get why people attack the agency. didnt work. agents may not be perfect. but the whole hindsight of disater is sure to find error, hence disaster

[seabeyond]

15. i dont get the right holding either waco or ruby ridge up as they do. i watched waco, reno

did everything they could to get those people out and not harming them. for law officials i thought they were incredibly patient. on both ruby ridge and waco i put the burden squarely on the people that caused it. they were wrong. then they escalated it. and i have always been a believer in dealing with cops, once you raise arms.... right there you shoulder blame for the outcome.

the right holds it up as... i dont know. but it is stupid as they all clain to be so much about law and order. the behavior of the people in these two situations totally contradict the law and order decree and should have the people pissed at those that caused it

[B Calm]

20. Ruby Ridge happened under Papa Bush's watch.

[Smith_3]

21. "once you raise arms.... right there you shoulder blame for the outcome"

So you are saying that in a dictatorship, the victims of police violence who fight back are to blame for police violence?

[B Calm]

22. I wouldn't go so far to call child molesters, victims. . . They had

every opportunity to open the door and chose their own suicide instead.

[seabeyond]

28. no, that is not what i am saying. that is not where this country is, and that did NOT

happen at ruby ridge.

but i am sure that is exactly the rights argument on taking blame off those at ruby ridge and giving it to the agencies there.

[Rage for Order]

40. Why did the federal gov't settle a wrongful death suit from Ruby Ridge?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge#Aftermath

The surviving members of the Weaver family filed a wrongful death suit and Randy Weaver received a $100,000 settlement while his daughters received $1 million each. Weaver wrote a 1998 paperback book, The Federal Siege at Ruby Ridge, about the incident. Kevin Harris received a $380,000 settlement.

FBI director Louis Freeh disciplined or proposed discipline for twelve FBI employees over their handling of the incident and the later prosecution of Randy Weaver and Harris. He described it before the U.S. Senate hearing investigating the incident as "synonymous with the exaggerated application of federal law enforcement" and stated "law enforcement overreacted at Ruby Ridge."

[seabeyond]

47. i have to go back and refresh memory, from what is left today in feel

i always felt that because of sentiment from nation, and because in reflection with other actions, this MIGHT not have happened so they rewarded. it wasnt large, significant, and to me it wasnt a statement that ruby ridge people innocent.... not responsible. i didnt get the feel at the time. more here, ... dont want to mess with it.

the issue i have here is when a person raises a gun to the cops they have escalated it to point when anything is possible, .... they made the choice

my point of police abuse is when there is no threat and a person is abused. when there is a threat, they are trying to stay alive....


btw... on either of these cases i am not stridently holding a position any way. it has been more, when i look at it i see it differently. why.

[Rage for Order]

48. The Dept. of Justice report on it is at this link...

http://www.justice.gov/opr/readingroom/rubyreportcover_39.pdf

I haven't read the whole thing, but here's an excerpt from Page 5:

"...We also found serious problems with the terms of the Rules of Engagement in force at Ruby Ridge. Certain portions of these Rules not only departed from the FBI's standard deadly force policy but also contravened the Constitution of the United States. In addition, we found these rules to be imprecise and believe that they may have created an atmosphere that encouraged the use of deadly force thereby having the effect of contributing to an unintentional death."

[MattNC]

17. Rules of Engagement

is by far the best work I've seen on this subject.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120472/

[RC]

19. Try google: There was no sane reason for what happened.

No one had to die there. The Davidian's were basically murdered by the law inforcement there. The news reports at the time did not jell right with me. They just did not sound right.
The records of this event were being stored in the Federal building Oklahoma City. After the bombing there, that building was razed and hauled away and buried in another state. As with the WTC there was no forensic investigation done, as is usually done at a crime scene such as this.
At the time of 9/11 there was a rumor that the records of the Oklahoma City bombing were being stored in WTC7. I wonder where the records of 9/11 are being stored? Or did someone finally get smart and made sure they didn't exist in the first place?

Anyway google is your friend:
THE DAVIDIAN MASSACRE PAGES
These pages are dedicated to the 82 men, women and children
killed by federal agents outside of Waco, Texas in 1993.

http://www.carolmoore.net/waco/

[Echo In Light]

23. In the mid 90s my wife and I happened upon a doc film on a public access channel...

It was pretty obvious what happened, and how the fire was started. More disturbing still was how the mainline media baited the populace into a Kill Kill Kill frenzy over it.

[kentuck]

25. I was visiting relatives in Kentucky...

And was in the lobby of a state park when the place went up in flames. I was shocked! I could not believe it. The Davidians waited until the tanks were knocking the walls down before they set themselves on fire? It didn't make sense. It still doesn't make sense. And I do not understand those that say their leader had a Messiah complex so, therefore they deserved to die? Did they think they would surrender when the place went up in flames? It was insane. It was criminal. I could understand why McVeigh felt the way he did. That is just my opinion.

[L. Coyote]

32. Statehood is founded on the sacred right of society to kill its members. NOT LOL!

Bill Clinton and Janet Reno inherited the Reagan/Bush FBI debacle at Waco.
The FBI messed this up. FBI actions harmed Clinton politically, no question.

[seabeyond]

34. they went in to serve a warrant. koresh and men opened fired.

why isnt that on koresh shoulder?

[L. Coyote]

36. So, burn them all, children too? Really?

The larger issue of government having "the right" to kill people should be addressed? Does the right exist, for one?

The proper use of state force is a real issue independent of questions of the actions of the people in the Davidian compound.

[seabeyond]

38. the intent was not to kill, burn the children. that was not their intent.

gotta have a little honesty in conversation. may have been the result, but clusterfuck generally results in that.

the responsible one for cluster fuck is the ones that created it, ... they were served with a warrant. they picked up arms and fired. atf sat out there for 51, 53 days, i cant remember. why is that never mentioned in the argument of who is responsible. why does koresh get a total pass on that. pretty big part of it in my opinion

[Pavulon]

42. They killed themselves..When served with a warrant you must comply

as civilized people we fight warrants and illegal search and seizure in court, not by killing federal agents. Regretfully the roe did not allow forces on the ground to shoot him dead when they had the opportunity. After he had fired on agents.

One 308 round would have saved many lives.

Their error was to try to take him there. They should have waited until he came out later and nabbed him on some highway. That way if he wanted to die he could have been accommodated bonnie and clyde style rather than killing innocents.

Their second error was to allow it to build.

[Jamastiene]

49. I was thinking about Columbine and the Oklahoma City Bombing

just this morning.

[bunkerbuster1]

51. Everything I learned about the massacre from Freeperville:

It was the worstest thing ever to happen to innocent people anywhere and it was all Clinton and Reno's fault and Janet Reno is an evil bulldyke who hates children!!!!1!!!

[seabeyond]

52. series!!!111!!!!! that is HUGH!!11!!!!!

[lovuian]

53. Branch Davidians were on the 33 degree parallel

many believe that there was a occultish feel and ritualistic sacrifice performed here

and it was started by the Leader

Texas learned from the experience