"Hero" John McCain as Phony and Collaborator: What Really Happened When He Was a POW?

[Better Believe It]

Counterpunch
Weekend Edition
April 19 / 20, 2008

CounterPunch Diary
"Hero" John McCain as Phony and Collaborator: What Really Happened When He Was a POW?
By ALEXANDER COCKBURN

John McCain’s been getting kid-glove treatment from the press for years, ever since he wiggled free of the Keating scandal and his profitable association – another collaboration, you might say -- with the nation’s top bank swindler in the 1980s. But nothing equals the astounding tact with which his claque on the press bus avoids the topic of McCain’s collaborating with his Vietnamese captors after he’d been shot down.

How McCain behaved when he was a prisoner is key. McCain is probably the most unstable man ever to have got this close to the White House. He’s one election away from it. Republican senator Thad Cochrane has openly said he trembles at the thought of an unstable McCain in the Oval Office with his finger on the nuclear trigger.

What if a private memory of years of collaboration in his prison camp gnaws at McCain, and bursts out in his paroxysms of uncontrollable fury, his rantings about “gooks” and his terrifying commitment to a hundred years of war in Iraq. What if “the hero” knows he’s a phony?
Doug Valentine has written the definitive history of the Phoenix Program in Vietnam. He knows about the POW experience. His dad, an Army man, was captured by the Japanese and sent to a POW camp in the Philippines for forced labor. Many of his mates died. Doug wrote a marvelous book about it, The Hotel Tacloban.

Now Valentine has picked up the unexploded bomb lying on McCain’s campaign trail this year. As he points out, he’s not the first. Rumors and charges have long swirled around McCain’s conduct as a prisoner. Fellow prisoners have given the lie to McCain’s claims. But Valentine has assembled the dossier. It’s devastating.

http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn04192008.html

[gateley]

1. I think his time as a POW should be off limits.

Using any such stories would be deplorable, and as low as it gets.

What he did, what he went through, to me, should be sacrosanct.

This is swiftboating ratcheted up, and the very thought of it is disgusting.

[Better Believe It]

3. Subject Is Not Off Limits Among Us

That won't be used by any candidates but I don't think the subject should be off limits for any progressives.

I wouldn't be surprised if his time as a POW made McCain a bit wacky.

He seems like a bit of nut to me.

[gateley]

25. It's entirely possible it affected him mentally - how could it not?

But delving into his actions during his time as a POW aren't relevant. How he conducts himself NOW is. I still vote for "off limits" --

[JDPriestly]

36. It is part of McCain's life. It is part of his personality.

It is not off limits. It is very relevant to what kind of man McCain is and what kind of president he will make.

[gateley]

41. Those parts of his personality are apparent now.

He's exhibited troubling behavior during his political career. He's shown us what kind of man he is NOW. We have all the info we need without having to delve into that part of his life.

What contributed to his state of mind is irrelevant. What matters, as you say, is what kind of president he will make.

Even people with whom he has worked in DC and admire him in some respects say they wouldn't want his finger anywhere near that button.

What more do you need to know?

[treestar]

127. Nothing is off limits to the Republicans!

Why do you advocate the Democrats willings tying their hands?

[Bandit]

55. That is your opinion and your opinion only

McCain is unstable and the reasons why need to be brought out..He did indeed do the biddin g of the North Vietnamese and I am sure he has great regrets over it. He has deep hatreds inside him and the reasons for those hatreds need to come out..Heroes don't hate like that..weak people do..

[scarletwoman]

32. I'm not part of your "us". In fact, it's damn presumptious of you to make any declarations

invoking "us" whatsoever, since no one actually agrees with you.

sw

[Better Believe It]

60. You're Participating In This Discussion

So that makes you part of "us"!

[scarletwoman]

62. Pfffft. Lame sophistry. (nt)

[Kajsa]

111. BBI,

you do not have anyone's
best interest in mind except your own.

This includes DU.

[brentspeak]

76. Exactly. And the OP is the same one spamming DU with all the pro-Chinese-government threads

as well as a bunch of other flame-bait and weird topics. The OP definitely himself doesn't seem like a genuine "us".

[Better Believe It]

80. You Haven't Seen Any Pro-China Government Threads On DU

I haven't found a one. Post those alleged links .... if you can.

However, if you just want to engage in flaming, personal attacks and red-baiting when you disagree with someones position, or can't defend your own, I suggest you do that on some right-wing or trash talk board, not on DU.

OK?

[scarletwoman]

83. You have absolutely no standing to "suggest" to ANYONE where they should post.

Your main "contributions" to DU have been shit-stirring and ignorant anti-Dalai Lama diatribes.

Go cry your crocodile tears somewhere else where maybe somebody cares. AFAIC, your posts here have been nothing but a blight on the board.

[Better Believe It]

85. Still Can't Find Those Bogus Links?

Well, if you can't find and haven't seen any pro-China government links on DU why did you make that false claim?

And why do you persist in red-baiting and other personal attacks against those who don't accept your views?

I know the answers to those questions.

Posters who don't know what they are writing about need to engage in flaming, red-baiting and personal attacks.

They've got nothing else to offer!

Isn't that right?

[scarletwoman]

87. I already know that you love your little semantic games.

Your posts about Tibet have been anti-Dalai Lama and pro the official Chinese propaganda line. Like pushing the wholly false "God-King" meme.

You already know what you are and what you are about. Take your bogus victimhood and shove it.

[Better Believe It]

88. The "Discussion " With You Is Closed

It's obvious you're not at all interested in free discussion and debate on DU. Just lies, mud slinging, name calling, red-baiting and personal attacks against those who don't adopt your viewpoint .... if you have one.

[scarletwoman]

89. Oh noes! Not that!

The blinding glare of your righteous outrage has rendered me... oh, wait a minute... funny thing, it hasn't made a damn bit of difference.

Fancy that.

[conscious evolution]

100. Discussion?

I have seen you dodge more discussion then just about anyone here.

In case you did not know it replying with laughable links is not a discussion.My favorite was the link to a book review that was supposed to be proof that the CIA backed and funded the Dalai Lama.If you had actually read the book you would have read where not only did the CIA not fund him but he tried to get the group that was funded by the CIA to lay down their weapons.

[Better Believe It]

102. The CIA Funded The Dalai Lama .... Period! Case Closed!

The evidence has been presented on DU in several posts. Is that why you failed to provide a link to those posts?

Well, let me help you.

Here's just a couple of links to the evidence. I can provide you with a lot more if you really need it.

The CIA's Secret War in Tibet by
Kenneth Conboy and James Morrison
April 2002

Kenneth Conboy and James Morrison reveal how America's Central Intelligence Agency encouraged Tibet's revolt against China--and eventually came to control its fledgling resistance movement. They provide the first comprehensive, as well as most compelling account of this little known agency enterprise.

The CIA's Secret War in Tibet takes readers from training camps in the Colorado Rockies to the scene of clandestine operations in the Himalayas, chronicling the agency's help in securing the Dalai Lama's safe passage to India and subsequent initiation of one of the most remote covert campaigns of the Cold War. Conboy and Morrison provide previously unreported details about secret missions undertaken in extraordinarily harsh conditions. Their book greatly expands on previous memoirs by CIA officials by putting virtually every major agency participant on record with details of clandestine operations. It also calls as witnesses the people who managed and fought in the program--including Tibetan and Nepalese agents, Indian intelligence officers, and even mission aircrews.

Conboy and Morrison take pains to tell the story from all perspectives, particularly that of the former Tibetan guerrillas, many of whom have gone on record here for the first time. The authors also tell how Tibet led America and India to become secret partners over the course of several presidential administrations and cite dozens of Indian and Tibetan intelligence documents directly related to these covert operations.

http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/concia.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From 1959 to 1964, Tibetan guerrillas were secretly trained at Camp Hale by the CIA

Camp Hale, between Red Cliff and Leadville in the Eagle River valley in Colorado, was a United States Army training facility constructed in 1942 for what became the 10th Mountain Division. It was named in honor of General Irving Hale. Soldiers were trained in mountain climbing, skiing and cold-weather survival. When it was in full operation, approximately 16,000 soldiers were housed there.

From 1959 to 1964, Tibetan guerrillas were secretly trained at Camp Hale by the CIA. The site was chosen because of the similarities of the Rocky Mountains with the Himalayan Plateau. The Tibetans loved the surroundings so much that they nicknamed the camp, "Dhumra", the Garden. The CIA circulated a story in the local press that Camp Hale was to be the site of atomic tests and would be a high security zone. Until its closure in 1964, the entire area was cordoned off and its perimeter patrolled by military police. In the nearby mining town of Leadville, where instructors from Camp Hale occasionally went for rest and recreation, numerous rumors spread about the camp but no one guessed its real function.

The Tibetan project was codenamed ST Circus, and it was similar to the CIA operation that trained dissident Cubans in what later became the Bay of Pigs Invasion. In all, around 259 Tibetans were trained at Camp Hale. Some were parachuted back into Tibet to link up with local resistance groups (most perished); others were sent overland into Tibet on intelligence gathering missions; and yet others were instrumental in setting up the CIA-funded Tibetan resistance force that operated out of Mustang, in northern Nepal (1959-1974). After Camp Hale was dismantled in 1964, no Tibetans remained in Colorado.
From 1958 to 1960 Anthony Poshepny trained various special missions teams, including Tibetan Khambas and Hui Muslims, for operations in China against the Communist government. Poshepny sometimes claimed that he personally escorted the 14th Dalai Lama out of Tibet, but this has been denied, both by former CIA officers involved in the Tibet operation, and by the Tibetan Government-in-exile (Central Tibetan Administration).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Hale

[conscious evolution]

104. Right .A book review is definitive proof.

How can anyone argue with that logic?

If you are going to use a book review as proof you should actually read the book first.

[Kajsa]

106. Oh dear God!

You and this post are so sad!

[Kajsa]

114. Funny- I saw them, too!

the new search function can't find squat for me.

Strange, I saw all those pro-Chinese government threads by you, too.
Hmmm-----

btw, you are the LAST person who should accuse
ANYONE of flaming and baiting.

We are attacking your messages/threads/ posts.


They are untrue and they stink!

[creeksneakers2]

50. Using it would be counterproductive n/t

[Thothmes]

66. Your correct

However, why do we feel that it is necessary to act like Republicans to win an election. This man can be defeated by honest discussion of the issues that face the American People.

[Adsos Letter]

4. I'll admit to having only hazy recollections of the debate around this...

but I thought the chain of command still functioned within the POW community...and I recall hearing that Senator McCain's superior while in captivity directed him to give some info, to lessen the degree of torture these guys were exposed to.

I could be totally wrong here and, if I am, I can count on the DU'ers to set me straight...but I agree, gateley, that this is stooping pretty low.

[Stinky The Clown]

7. I agree

I think his overall Navy record is fair game, but not his POW time.

He was a crappy pilot. Talk about that? Okayfine.

He spent most of his time in DC sucking ass. Talk about that? Okayfine.

His time in Annapolis was laughable and he really should have been dismissed. Talk abut that? Okayfine.

But his POW time? Off limits, in my view.

Divorcing his wife and taking up with a gravy train. Talk about that? O Kay Fine!!!

[Adsos Letter]

8. ...yup...

you don't go after ex-POWs...just my opinion, but I stand by it.

[gateley]

20. WIth you on all points. nt

[Captain Angry]

9. McCain has plenty of history to go after.

Enough that we don't need to touch his POW time at all.

"Campaign Finance"
His relationships with powerful religious nuts
Keating Five

And oh, so much more.

[razors edge]

11. Sounds like your concerned about

what is politically correct, not what is the best for the US in general.

As a veteran I concur that his service it to be respected, but if a service member raped a child in uniform does he get a pass as well?

It appears as though he gave information that led directly to the deaths of other American pilots, and I for one would like to know if that is true or not.

[gateley]

24. I would view the raping of a child in a different light - no pass on that.

And I'm not concerned with "politically correct". My view stems from my belief that anyone in that situation experiences unknowable horrors, and that those of us who haven't been subjected to that hell, have no right to judge or criticize. Especially for political gain.

Who is intimating that he gave such info that led to the deaths of American pilots?

This just smacks of swiftboating to me, which I found equally deplorable.

I am concerned about what is best for the US. There are plenty who have come forward -- and there's proof -- that he's acted irrationally in his political career. That's what's relevant.

And from the bottom of my heart, I thank you for your service to our country. It breaks my heart that you and others like you, have had to witness what it has become.

[razors edge]

27. You can google it.

Several of the men held captive with him have told of it, I won't link to it here.

I think it would be a shitty campaign issue also, but I don't think he should get a pass on it just because his daddy was a Admiral, something he used to his advantage time and again.

[gateley]

31. I just read 3 hit pieces on McCain-

and what they came up with was essentially what he has relayed himself (one piece printed excepts from his interviews and statements) and not much more other than projection and conjecture.

I don't see the smoking gun, and if this is the best "information" people can come up with -- even those with a definite agenda to discredit McCain, then I think it's even more outrageous that people are dragging this up.

[razors edge]

34. I'm not dragging it up.

But there is more to the story.

[gateley]

42. I would have thought hit pieces would have been where I would

find the goods. :shrug:

Fine. There's more to the story.

I hope those who feel it's relevant can feel good about themselves if they insist on making this part of a political smear.

[CTyankee]

73. Plus, Alexander Cockburn I think is a bit strange if I am remembering him correctly.

I agree. Let's not get into this. It could be a RW trap, a la TANG story on CBS, and we know how THAT turned out...

[Better Believe It]

74. Cockburn Is Strange???? Perhaps You Meant McCain

Is the following part of that Right-Wing trap?

Republican Sen. Thad Cochran of Mississippi, himself a past target of McCain's sharp tongue, especially over what McCain regarded as Cochran's hunger for pork-barrel projects in his state. Cochran landed in newspapers early during the campaign after declaring that the thought of McCain in the Oval Office "sends a cold chill down my spine."

Now I think that quote by a southern conservative leader of the Republican party should be used a lot in the general election.

"McCain sends a cold chill down my spine".

[CTyankee]

75. good one. On Cockburn, I think I read somewhere that he is a bit

brash. It's been a while so my memory is rusty...

[XemaSab]

21. I think his time as a POW SHOULD be a valid topic insofar as torture goes.

Obama said it clearly the other night: we do NOT torture in this country.

Obama's going to be running against a candidate who seems to believe in torture, but he's also probably the only serious candidate for president this country has ever had who has been tortured.

I think it should be on the table.

[malaise]

47. Only if he's not using it for shameless self promotion n/t

[AngryOldDem]

57. I agree.

What is the difference between this, and the questioning of John Kerry's service in Vietnam? Answer: None.

McCain suffered, and suffered badly as a POW. While I think that he is in no way fit to be president, that does not mean that I cannot recognize and respect the time he spent as a POW.

Just as I said back in 2004, I think some aspects of a candidate's past should just be left alone. Military service, unless it's on the scale of a My Lai massacre, is one of those aspects.

[acmavm]

59. The guy turned on his country and violated every basic tenet of what a

military officer should be, and you think his record should be off limits? Well isn't that SPECIAL?????

The guy is a fucking traitorous liar and a sneak and dangerous, too damn dangerous to let near the White House. He has no scruples, he is the biggest opportunist on the face of the Earth, and he'll turn on every and anyone for his own benefit. And the proof positive is in his 'military' record. And you think this should be off limits? WTF?

He has been nothing but a nasty bit of goods since he got out of the POW camp 10 pounds heavier than when he went in. One of the first acts out of the gate after he got into politics was to get himself involved with Charles Keating.

What is it that makes people such schmucks when it comes to someone being in the military? Does that meant they can't be a bad person? Does that mean that they can walk on water.

Fuck this military shit. During the Viet Nam war the military wasn't doing a fucking thing to protect and defend this country. They were in a foreign land killing civilians who didn't think that America had the right to take over their part of the world. And were were NOT picky about who we murdered. Revisit the photos of My Lai if you don't know what I'm talking about.

And don't come back and give me any sanctimonious bullshit about 'was I in the military'? The answer is NO. But my Dad was in the Navy, my brother John was in the Air Force, brother Bob was Army and my brother Tommy was in the Marines.

The man is a war criminal traitor grasping opportunist. Live with it.

[AngryOldDem]

61. I wonder how Jim Webb and John Kerry would respond to this,

Or was their service in Vietnam bullshit as well?

How does this really differ from the attacks on Kerry's service four years ago?

[acmavm]

72. Why would anyone with two active, living brain cells put those two in the

same category as John McShame?

edit: To add as well as why would one with a reasonable idea of right and wrong compare them as well?

You should be ashamed.

[AngryOldDem]

92. May I quote you?

<<<Fuck this military shit. During the Viet Nam war the military wasn't doing a fucking thing to protect and defend this country. They were in a foreign land killing civilians who didn't think that America had the right to take over their part of the world. And were were NOT picky about who we murdered. Revisit the photos of My Lai if you don't know what I'm talking about.<<<


And you don't think you painted every person who served in Vietnam with that very broad brush of yours?

Take your umbrage and shove it.

[acmavm]

97. Yeah, quote this too. They're doing it again. That old excuse "I was just

following orders" didn't work in Nuremburg, didn't work at My Lai, and sure doesn't work for any of the massacres in Iraq.

Take your starry eyed idol worship and YOU shove it. History has proven that wearing a uniform isn't a pass when you're killing innocent people. Intentionally. For a corrupt government.

[treestar]

128. Well, exactly.

THEY had no problem being assholes, and then they WON!!!!

The average American voter is a dipshit. McCain should be treated as Kerry was. Time to be "tough" so as to win.

This kind of let McCain be off limits caters directly to the Repukes, they count on us to take the high ground and therefore lose.

[bighart]

71. My view on all of this kind of stuff is

if you think it is "dirty politics" when it is done to someone you support, then it is dirty politics if it is done to someone you oppose.

[treestar]

126. Hello, what about what THEY did to John Kerry?

:rofl:

No, nothing is off limits, and they deserve it.

[DAGDA56]

2. I mentioned in another post that a question George S. should ask Senator McCain...

...is "does torture work to provide any useful information...if so, what did you tell the Viet Cong?" Cruel? Shameful? Maybe, but no more irrelevant than what was thrown at Senators Obama and Clinton.

Edited after seeing Gatley's post--would the Republicans back off if the situation were reversed? With Kerry, they swiftboated an actual hero...heroic due to his own voluntary actions...not due to the unfortunate experience of being shot down and captured.

[Adsos Letter]

5. yes, by all means...

let us emulate the republicans... :sarcasm:

[DAGDA56]

10. I'm not saying you or I have to do it...but do you really think...

...the subject will remain off limits? In any other year, perhaps...unfortunately, it appears the use of torture by the United States is an issue.

[treestar]

129. And then win the election

Did the Republicans lose due to their horrific behavior?

[pnorman]

33. "does torture work to provide any useful information...if so, what did you tell the Viet Cong?"

I'm going to save that for later use. Thanks.

As for the question under discussion: If it can be established with a reasonable degree of certainty, then lets go for it! Otherwise, it would be nothing more than copycat swiftboating. If refuted, it could do us great damage. Few if any on our side, can feign DeLay-like "outrage" when caught in a falsehood.

pnorman

[AngryAmish]

103. On a small pedantic point, McCain did not tell anything to the VIet Cong

Viet Cong were irregulars operating in South Vietnam. McLame was a prisoner of the North Vietnamese Army. NVA wore uniforms, Viet Cong did not. For the purposes of this discussion it does not matter, just that I'm a pedantic jackass.

[treestar]

130. I don't think it damages us with the horrific voters out there

Kerry taking the high road did not work.

Negative campaigning works. Not having the stomach to do it is why the repukes keep winning.

We are always on the defensive because we refuse to have the guts to be mean. Being mean to McBush is exactly what will let us win. Yet we insist on being "good." We'll lose.

[dano81818]

6. well, the first part of the author's name is certainly accurate....

i think these kinds of tactics will backfire against our nominee... that article lists very few facts to support the charge against mccain as a collaborationist. if this is all they've got, they should give up this line of attack. btw, it's funny that all we hear about is the right wing attack machine, yet here we are, doing what we've claimed to abhor. what's wrong with just talking about the important issues like the war, single payer health care, gun control and gay rights?

[Crabby Appleton]

12. Complete bullshit

[WheelWalker]

13. McCain's a nut case, but I don't think we need to go here to prove it. The probability of

"Blow Back" is just too great. Even the wise cannot see all ends.

[gateley]

44. You state it perfectly and concisely, VI --

He's a nut case, but we don't need to go there to prove it.

So I'm not understanding what the motivation would be other than ... I can't even conceive of a reason why someone would pursue this if it's not needed.

[AngryOldDem]

67. The "blowback" is just not worth it.

A Pyrrhic victory, if anything. No good can come of making an issue over his POW days. Countless people will be offended and alienated -- and I count myself among them -- that it is a strategy not worth pursuing. Funny. We constantly decry Rovian tactics, yet some embrace those same tactics if it helps some self-serving purpose.

Attack McCain for Keating. Attack his temper. Attack his apparent instability. But making an issue of the Hanoi Hilton is a big, big mistake.

[Piperay]

94. I agree

who wants to be like the reTHUGs with their purple bandages. x(

[treestar]

131. Why didn't that apply to them when they did it to Kerry?

In what they called "wartime" no less?

[SammyWinstonJack]

14. Hillary and Obama are both phony! We are so screwed!

[SammyWinstonJack]

15. Y'all fell for it! So sad and so bad!

[emilyg]

16. Pretty low.

[Journeyman]

17. "When you can take the hot lead enema," said Lenny Bruce . . .

"you can cast the first stone."

[mth44sc]

18. What happened to him them

is OFF LIMITS...

That he now supports our doing what happened to him then and MORE is not off limits...

[The_Casual_Observer]

19. I hate to see anybody get swiftboated. This is shit.

[Olney Blue]

22. We can win without digging up this stuff.

[SquireJons]

23. Depends on what he did as a POW

If he collaborated with the enemy, then that is a serious military offense. He can be court martialed and in other times, shot. The military takes this sort of thing very seriously. I'm not one for dragging this thing through the mud, but a seriously independent investigation is warranted. Unfortunately, with the obvious bias of counterpunch, the story loses it's credibility.

[Divine Discontent]

26. I agree

They swiftboated Kerry on the TV and in MILLIONS of email forwards. So, fine, we'll just send email forwards out or along, that say he's a loose cannon about to blow up and start world war 3, killing us all off from retaliation, and that he aided the enemy in Vietnam, and could very well be brainwashed by the communists, and when he takes power, he'll become a violent dictator! (all things I've seen already in email forwards about Obama - that he may have been involved in anti-American groups before he was elected into office, that he's a Muslim in secret, and that he's hellbent on destroying our country)...

face it folks, this is going to be a vicious campaign.

Seriously, just IMAGINE the fact we're days away from potentially having ourselves a black man run as the Democratic nominee for president. There's going to be some major hatred toward him and those of us who support him openly.

[gateley]

45. "we'll just send email forwards out or along"

Why? Or, more precisely, why does it need to be about his POW time?

There's PLENTY of other McCain crap -- which is true -- that we can spread around, that would show questions about his stability and therefore his ability to be President.

[Divine Discontent]

91. there is plenty, I agree

and if done even REMOTELY incorrectly - it will draw sympathy. In fact, I could see the right wingers making a horribly mean forward and passing it around to try and say we're disrespectful to his service. NOTHING EVER shocks me anymore when I hear in the news that the GOP has done something dirty regarding campaigns.

[scarletwoman]

29. It's not important. There's plenty of other stuff to lay at his feet.

There's much better ammunition available. Trying to attack his whole POW myth head-on is a stupid and useless tactic.

[Usrename]

37. Of course he collaborated with the enemy, that's what torture is for.

Nobody is expected to resist torture. That's why they used to issue cyanide capsules to spies.

[cliffordu]

28. Complete bullshit.

When you can stand the torture this man did and not talk, go ahead and use it.

Better yet, why don't you have your arms snapped and get someone come over and stand on them for a couple hours since you seem to think that's fair play.

He could have come home ANY TIME HE WANTED TO because his daddy was an Admiral and he could have been used as a tool for propaganda. He refused unless the others came with him. They really fucked him up after that.

You want to give him the nomination?? Bring it up.

His record as a human being and as a Senator is abysmal enough to go after without reducing the Democratic party to the kind of filthy tactic Rove and the rest of those scumbags almost perfected....


Oh, and by the way - under torture, EVERYBODY TALKS. Anyone who says different is lying or stupid.


:patriot:

[Richard Steele]

30. That's the worst idea I've heard all week. nm

[Bigmack]

35. Dems shouldn't use this stuff...

.. but why isn't the MSM giving McCain the same treatment that Kerry got during the "swiftboating"? They aired the accusations and gave the assholes a platform to talk.

Same guys are saying the same shit about McCain, and we hear crickets on from the pseudo-pundits.

I'm going out of my way to tell people I don't believe one word of what Ted Sampley and VVAJMc says, but if they believed what Sampley said about Kerry at all, how can they doubt what he says about McCain?

I tell anybody I know to go to...

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com

These are NOT liberals saying this stuff about McCain. If there is any onus on these stories, it lies with the slime on the Right.

[creeksneakers2]

53. Those guys are some of the worst slime balls on the planet

They made living perpetuating the myth that live US troops were left behind as POWs in Vietnam. They exploited the grief of POW families for profit. They hate both McCain and Kerry because the two held hearings that exposed the fraud.

I can name one person who stood up when these guys went after Kerry. John McCain. McCain put partisan differences aside to defend Kerry. We don't owe John McCain much but he's earned a pass from attacks from a group which is scum anyway.

[deaniac21]

99. Ted Sampley is a follower of Lyndon LaRouche.

[bush_equals_mladic]

38. More dangerous than Bush?

That can't be. Bush must be the first and worst President of USA this century. McCain can't beat him. You can't beat Bush's standard of lies - remember Iraq's WMD. With that lies he destroyed Iraq. The whole world was aghast but could not do a thing about it. This happened in 21st Century?

[progressive_realist]

39. I am not OK with using this line of attack.

If the conservatives want to eat their own, fine. But we should have no part of this.

There are plenty of other things to go after McCain with. This is no better than swiftboating.

[Hawaii Hiker]

43. After what the Swift Boaters did to Kerry, & the horrible campaign Saxy Chambliss ran

against Max Cleland, I have no problem doing it to McBush...

Two wrongs might not make a right, but turnabout is fair play....

[HuffleClaw]

40. descending to the level of the swiftboaters is folly imo

and won't impress too many people

[Beam Me Up]

46. Yeah, I wouldn't swift boat McCain they way the Republicans are going to

swift boat Hillary or Obama.

/snark

[dommyluc]

48. Turnabout

If McCain is going to run on his heroic status as a former POW, and there is credible evidence that he has been hypocritical, then it should be used. I am not talking about Swift Boat lies, tho. I am talking about documented, irrefutable evidence. Believe me, the Rethugs would use it against the Dems. We lost the election in 2004 because we tried to be the "nice guys". Well, the Rethugs are not going to be nice. And neither should we. We are not only talking about an election here - we are talking about the possible destruction of our nation by the right wing neocon forces of the Republican Party, with "hero" McSame in the first line. He must be taken down, although I think there is enough of other scandals in his life that can be used already (Cindy, Keating 5, etc.).

[dommyluc]

49. And BTW

Why were the sailors on the USS Pueblo who were taken prisoner considered traitors while McCain is considered a hero?

[newfie11]

51. I totally agree!!!!!!!!!

[creeksneakers2]

54. Because it doesn't work that way

The GOP attracts voters who love lies and have no consciences. When a smear job goes down the GOP voters want to get in on it.

Democrats lose votes if they engage in illegitimate smears because their voters are offended by those tactics.

A Democrat believes the US is all one big family and policy should be set by decisions we all arrive at together through an honest process. Anything that undermines the process is seen as an effort that will hurt us all in the end.

Republicans believe that government is one big rip off of their hard earned money, committed by a conspiracy of lazy dishonest people. Suppose you were held up at gunpoint and you had a $100 bill in your shoe and you didn't tell the robber about it. Would you feel bad that you weren't honest with the robber? Republicans feel the same way about their side starting lies and slanders.

There are plenty of honest things to attack the GOP with that won't backfire.

[MilesColtrane]

52. This stinks.

Criticizing someone for breaking under torture is beyond the pale.

[Kajsa]

108. That's what this OP is famous for.

or should I say 'infamous'?

Do a quick search of his threads here and
you'll see what I mean.

:(

[joeybee12]

56. No fan of McLame, but don't go here...

...his temprament is fair game, but if you try to tie it into his time as a POW, that's wrong, and will backfire so quickly...

[jpak]

58. Hanoi Hilton Vets For The Truth

a 527 is calling you...

:evilgrin:

[scarletwoman]

78. The appropriate 527 would be "Pot-stirrers for obfuscation and disarray". (nt)

[starroute]

63. The real issue may be whether McCain has a form of PTSD

The stuff quoted in the OP about whether McCain "knows he's a phony" is pseudo-psychological bullcrap as far as I'm concerned. But there's also a more substantial issue that has been touched on in this thread.

Torture traumatizes people in very deep and permanent ways. There are organizations devoted to working with the victims of torture, and they will tell you that the mental wounds can be far more difficult to treat than the physical ones.

Some of those mental wounds are essentially a form of post-traumatic stress disorder -- no light matter in itself.

But I've also encountered descriptions of something far more profound -- that under torture the self fragments, with the inner "I" attempting to dissociate itself from the suffering body and observe it from a distance, and that this dissociation can never be fully reversed. That you are never again fully in touch with your own feelings or your own experiences.

That is what worries me about McCain -- and it has nothing to do with whether he sold out to the North Vietnamese or not.

[gateley]

69. Yes - and we can highlight his questionable mental stability

by focusing on what's he done while holding public office. Plenty of worrisome crap there.

[Kaleva]

64. A bad move to use this line of attack

Obama refers to McCain as a hero and maybe the rest of us ought to leave it at that.

[indypaul]

65. I am more concerned abut reports that

he is taking economic advice from Grover Norquist and Phil Gramm.
We don't need to delve into his POW tenure to show his ass kissing
abilities. His attempt to bring the "conservative" wing of his
party into his camp will bare that out.

[kevinbgoode]

68. If McCain keeps bringing up his POW experience like a badge of honor

then most certainly, the conservative claims about his patriotism can be pulled out from 2000 - after all, THEY were the ones who threw him under the bus back then. . .

And when the candidate brings the experience up himself, he should be willing to talk about any issues around that experience.

[Better Believe It]

70. Senator Thad Cochran (R-Ms) McCain In Oval Office "Sends a cold chill down my spine"

McCain: A question of temperament
Questions over an explosive temper still dog the presumptive GOP nominee
By Michael Leahy
The Washington Post
April 20, 2008


Since the beginning of McCain's public life, the many witnesses to his temper have had strikingly different reactions to it. Some depict McCain, now the presumptive Republican nominee for president, as an erratic hothead incapable of staying cool in the face of what he views as either disloyalty to him or irrational opposition to his ideas. Others praise a firebrand who is resolute against the forces of greed and gutlessness.

Former senator Bob Smith, a New Hampshire Republican, expresses worries about McCain: "His temper would place this country at risk in international affairs, and the world perhaps in danger. In my mind, it should disqualify him."

"As a young man, I would respond aggressively and sometimes irresponsibly to anyone who I perceived to have questioned my sense of honor and self-respect. Those responses often got me in a fair amount of trouble earlier in life."

He defied authority, ridiculed other students, sometimes fought. The nicknames hung on him at Episcopal mocked his hair-trigger feistiness: "Punk" and "McNasty." Hoping to emulate his father and grandfather, also an admiral, he went on to the Naval Academy, where his pattern of unruliness and defiance continued, landing him near the bottom of his class. "I acted like a jerk," McCain wrote of the period before he righted himself to become a naval aviator, a Vietnam POW and eventually a career politician.

.... Republican Sen. Thad Cochran of Mississippi, himself a past target of McCain's sharp tongue, especially over what McCain regarded as Cochran's hunger for pork-barrel projects in his state. Cochran landed in newspapers early during the campaign after declaring that the thought of McCain in the Oval Office "sends a cold chill down my spine."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24223304/

[brentspeak]

77. You're a total freak to try to bring this up.

McCain is unfit to be President because his policies and his politics reek; but he's a genuine military hero, while you, on the other hand, are a genuine zero.

[Better Believe It]

84. McCain Was Not A Vietnam War Hero

I don't think bombing and dropping napalm on innocent civilians was very heroic at all.

But I tell you who the real heros in the U.S. Air Force were.

The many pilots who refused order to bomb civilian targets.

Now that took courage!

Do you think these victims of napalm bombing attacks think Senator McCain is a hero?

[WheelWalker]

95. Get over it.

[Ilsa]

79. Using this method of attack will only bring him sympathy. There are

too many pictures and videos of him in recovery from his injuries, which were severe. He told his captors he wouldn't go home unless his fellow prisoners went home with him. That's why he is a hero. I won't participate in this kind of bashing.

[moondust]

81. delete

[Balbus]

82. Yeah, this is an election tactic that will swing the undecideds...

[GoneOffShore]

86. What is the first duty of a captured officer?

What is he required to supply in the way of information to the enemy?


What did John McCain do?

[defendandprotect]

90. Who among us wouldn't crack and beg for mercy? I detest McCain and all he

stands for re the military --- but this is nonsense.
Believe the worst of him -- I'm sure it's true.
But we would be fools to try to judge this ---
and not understand that whatever he withstood, it is probably more than
any of us could.

No --- it's for those who served with him to judge him --- not us.

It would also be expected that because his father was prominent in the military
that that would be used in one way or another against him.

Again --- I detest this man, but this approach is something that should be left to the r-w.

What we have to learn is how to DEFEND ourselves better against such low tactics!

PS: I think they have reversed the rules that these men were serving under and that
the rules now reflect that it is understood that they will crack under torture.

[Better Believe It]

93. What Might Cause The Nutcase To Crack At A Presidential Debate

If a reporter quotes Senator Thad Cochran's comment that the thought of McCain in the Oval Office "sends a cold chill down my spine."

Or if a reporter directly questions McCain's mental stability and POW behavior in Vietnam.

That could trigger a rather bizarre reaction by the right-wingnut.

[WheelWalker]

96. I agree...debates will not be a pretty picture. But it's now...living in the NOW that must be

dealt with. Viet Nam happened. Fix the problem, not the blame.

[Better Believe It]

98. Senator Bob Smith: McCain's "temper would place this country at risk "

The Nation
04/20/2008
by Katrina vanden Heuvel

MCCAIN: "HIS TEMPER WOULD PLACE THIS COUNTRY AT RISK"

I've read a lot about McCain's fiery temper and I certainly think it's one factor among many why the man would make a dangerous President. But I still think McCain is most dangerous because he's the true neocon. He would lead by taking this nation into wars not only of choice but of his own choice.

As the Brooking Institution's Ivo Daalder told The Nation's Robert Dreyfuss,
.... it was the words of former New Hampshire Republican Senator Bob Smith that I found of special note. "His temper would place this country at risk in international affairs, and the world perhaps in danger. In my mind it should disqualify him." A man who admits to not liking McCain, yet a Republican in good standing.

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters?bid=45&pid=313287

[Javaman]

101. total bullshit.

I hate mclame, BUT questioning his actions as a POW is off limits. Period.

Let me clue you in on something regarding being a POW, they all break. They all talk. Anyone that says they didn't is lying to themselves.

If gitmo and abu garib has taught you anything, it's this: humans are capable to doing the most horrible and horrendous things to one another all under the guise of nationalism/patriotism.

so please, take this tripe outside.

[Kajsa]

105. A-Ha! Mr. " The Tibetian Taliban are at work, again"

has posted yet another thread of dubious credibility!

How'd those other threads go?

You are absolutely insulting to the members of DU,
thinking you can fool all of us.

[Better Believe It]

119. Still Can't Figure Out Why You Disagree With Posts?

Wish I could help you out.

It appears that you and a few others on DU just can't resist posting their non-thoughts and non-opinions on articles they supposedly disagree with.

When ya'll can figure out why you don't like those articles please share your golden nuggets of wisdom for all of us to read!

The old one liner personal attacks are getting a bit old.

So far all I've seen from ya'll is a poverty of ideas

Nothing bold.

Nothing original.

Nothing of substance.

Just thoughtless dribble.

That's the very best they can do.

That's OK.

Us grown-ups can proceed without you.

Poor souls.

[Kajsa]

120. Ha! You have one great advantage here,

-- a not so great search engine on DU now.

" Still Can't Figure Out Why You Disagree With Posts?"

surely thou jest--

a questionable "article" claiming McCain
" collaborated extensively" with his captors,
and lied about his experiences as a POW?

- that's some earthshaking,factual reporting there!
:eyes:

-- just like all your other "sources".

I've tried to reason with you in the past-to no avail.
Your blinders are permanently glued on and it
doesn't look like they're coming off anytime soon.

Your MO, in a nutshell;

Post flamebait,
repeat false, inflammatory dogma ad nauseam,
repeat step 2.

---and then there's your immaturity
and complete lack of decency as a human being.

I ask you again, ( which you avoided to answer)
-how did your threads turn out?
( I remember, just in case you're compelled to perpetuate untruths)

Again, you're not fooling anyone here.

[Better Believe It]

121. "how did your threads turn out?"

How did you know I just bought a new suit?

It looks terrific on me.

Thanks for asking!

[Kajsa]

122. You're welcome!

What were the reactions of other members
to the other threads you posted here on DU?

What's the consensus on this thread?

[Better Believe It]

124. "What's the consensus on this thread?" YIKES!

Well, if you actually read the comments on this and other threads you'd know the answer to your question!

I'm sorry if you don't have the time to read or just don't understand the comments written by posters but I really don't have to time
to help you.

Oh .... in answer to your question, there is no consensus on this thread. People have different points of view regarding the subject matter.

I wish you had an opinion and could express it.

[Kajsa]

125. Wow- you REALLY don't want to answer that, do you?

That wasn't even artful dodging.

You already know my opinion, as I have
stated it quite often.

You know the consensus here, it's in all
of the responses.

The answer to both are one and the same.

This thread is propaganda, it's untrue
and it stinks- that was pointed out several times, here.

You do not have DU's best interest in mind,
only your own.

[Kajsa]

107. -----

[scarletwoman]

112. That's a lovely painting!

Is it a rendering of "The King Of Trolls"?

:D
sw

[Kajsa]

113. Hi Scarletwoman!

Thank you---:)

Yes it is!

It's by John Bauer, one of my favorite artists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bauer

:D :hi:

[scarletwoman]

115. Thank you for the tip about John Bauer!

What fun to make a new discovery!

More than that, I am so grateful to see someone else on this thread who feels the way I do about the author.

:loveya:
sw

[Kajsa]

116. You're very welcome, dear lady!

I'm glad to see you here
countering his nonsense,too!

:D :loveya:

[scarletwoman]

117. We are like Madeline,

We know a "bad hat" when we see one.

:D :hug:
sw

[Kajsa]

118. Yep!

:hug:

[Zynx]

109. I'm never going to attack what happened to anyone when they were a POW.

First of all, I am reasonably sure this is bullshit. Secondly, let's have you be tortured for 6 years in an authoritarian country and see what you do.

[LittleClarkie]

110. Cockburn can go to hell and take Counterpunch with him.

Leave that shit to Ted Sampley.

[Jennicut]

123. I'm no fan of McSame. However, this is too low for me and many others.

I don't think McCain's personality changed that much after being a POW. He was always brash and a bit unstable. He used to drink and part a lot at his naval school. I have a problem with his views on the Iraq war and its a shame that a man who was part of torture in Vietnam would be for a war that has harmed many Iraqi citizens and led us to torture others. Still, I think he paid a heavy price for being a POW. Even his son went to Iraq. In many ways John McCain is more dangerous then Bush because he is so personally involved in the military and believes so strongly that it should be used. Bush just let the ultra neo cons like Cheney lead him. McCain is a true believer.

[cynatnite]

132. Swiftboating McCain will cause a backlash...

:puke:

We've got what we need to slam McCain. His time as a POW shouldn't be used as speculation fodder.

It's disgusting and it's no different than when the repukes hit Kerry on his war record.