Abortion is murder?

[Rex_Goodheart]

The "pro-life" crowd is so full of horseshit. Hardly anybody REALLY deems it murder. How do I know this?

Imagine a society where a million or so unwanted orphans or foster kids are rounded up and exterminated. There would be massive rioting in the streets to end the slaughter. Civil war, even.

Where's the violence over the abortions?

[DrDan]

1. but state executions are just

[Iris]

69. yep - ok when the state decides to take a life.

[DrDan]

79. state-sponsored murder

[dysfunctional press]

97. innocence is the key word...

"unborn children" as they are referred to by the pro-lifers are also seen as complete innocents.

victims of capital punishment have been determined to be guilty by a jury of their peers. (HOWEVER- i do realize that innocent people HAVE been convicted and executed- i'm just pointing out the difference in the rational)

[Ferret Annica]

2. They are wrong to oppose abortion and then...

... support capital punishment as it makes them less then upholders of the sanctity of human life, but they are correct about abortion, it is a murderous evil.

[Fumesucker]

4. Has seeking an abortion been made a felony?

If abortion is murder then the abortionist is a "hit man", but the person who pays for the hit man is every bit as culpable in murder as the actual killer is..

I'll believe that abortion is murder when women who are seeking an abortion are charged with felonies for doing so.

Right off hand I can't think of anyone that is advocating making seeking an abortion a felony.

[Ferret Annica]

15. I am opposed to making abortion a felony

And women who chose to have should not be hounded or harassed for doing so.

[Mandate My Ass]

5. not evil at all and, imho, not even close to murder

chalk it up to just something you don't like and can't control.

[Ferret Annica]

14. Did I advocate control?

I think that 9-11 was an inside job and the power elite is moving toward destroying this country in order to create the North American Union, (NAU).

I don't advocate making any laws regarding abortion. My opinion is my opinion and I don't seek to impose it on anyone else. If a woman feels different about it than I do, she should still have the right to go get an abortion.

I don't trust any laws anymore that seek to control behavior or legislate morality.

I have many dear female friends who have had abortions, and I don't guilt trip a one of them over their choice.

[CTyankee]

29. Well, my goodness, if you feel that way

I certainly hope you don't ever have one!

[Ferret Annica]

49. How cool, someone else from the Nutmeg state.

I am from Clinton, CT originally. Hope things are warmer there then it is here in Oregon this spring.

I am a gay man, honey, don't worry about little old me having an abortion. *Sigh* I've tried to get preggers love, but for some reason nothing seems to work.

I also don't worship anyone nailed up on any cross either, I am of Wicca. I also don't need lessons in empathy as you imply. With all due respect you assume too much about me and why I feel as I do. You see, my opinion is not at all predicated by a desire to control and dominate women in a patriarchal manner as a radical rightwing wingnut might.

Thanks for sharing by the way.

[CTyankee]

55. Well, you're welcome, hon!

Don't be upset. I tell every man to tells me he is against abortion not to have one. I enjoy the responses I get...

[krabigirl]

65. lol, love the use of the word "evil."

[krabigirl]

66. lol, love the use of the word "evil."

[Warpy]

3. Well, there has been violence and people have gotten killed.

However, "abortion is murder" opens up a real can of worms. For instance, is a miscarriage involuntary manslaughter? Are sexually active women going to have to send all their used tampons and sanitary napkins in for inspection to make sure they haven't killed anybody that month?

Most miscarriages happen long before a woman suspects she's pregnant.

In fact, that's how I suggested the women in Virginia deal with their wingnut legislator who wanted all miscarriages inspected by the ME and issued death certificates: send him all their used sanitary pads for his personal inspection so that they could conform to his law.

Funny, a day after I posted that one on a Virginia bulletin board, he withdrew the bill.

Coward.

[raccoon]

16. Way to go, Warpy!

:yourock:

[Cerridwen]

78. I didn't read your response when I made mine.

Seems we're of "a mind" about this issue.

[Chiloe]

6. 50 million abortions in America

It really horrifies me. I think it's wrong. The operation itself sounds disgusting.

[reformedrethug]

7. My issue

is the fact that there are literally thousands of families that want to adopt a child, many want babies and since there is a shortage of infants available for adoption they go out of the country to adopt that child.

[raccoon]

17. How many want to adopt them if they're not perfect and white?

A few thousand less.

[reformedrethug]

72. my dad and step mom

adopted 3 black kids, 2 straight from the hospital. 1 has cerebal palsy and is pretty much cheir confined, the other has severe autisim and may never be able to take care of herself and 1 boy with SEVERE mental issues to the point he has been hospitalized to try to regulate his meds and to work on his actions. He has twice tried to kill his sisters... he is 8.

You would be suprised.

Btw we are white.

[raccoon]

90. Kudos to your dad and stepmom.

They are some special people.

[LeftyMom]

24. First of all, it is not the obligation of women with unwanted pregnancies to furnish babies

for those who suffer difficulty conceiving. Pregnancy is physically difficult, can be very expensive (medical care, time off work, a real possibility of losing one's job, etc) and creates lasting changes in a woman's body- it's not something to be undertaken lightly or that can be demanded of another, and it is not the job of the underclasses who often choose abortion because they can not afford children to reproduce for those who can afford the high fees associated with adoption.

Second, the adoption backlog exists only for one category of children: healthy, light skinned infants. There are plenty of kids available, the real shortage is of people willing to adopt kids who do not fall into that category. Adding more infants to the adoption pool just means that even more "less desirable" children (those over two, not perfectly healthy or darker skinned) are going to spend their childhoods in foster care and never have real parents.

Third, foreign adoptions are not undertaken due to a shortage of adoptable kids. Foreign adoptions are undertaken because of laws that are seen as more favorable, the perception that US birthmothers are likely to reclaim their child, and the perception that babies born abroad are less likely to be exposed to drugs in utero. The second and third are probably untrue, or at least not overwhelmingly true: adoptive mothers rarely reclaim their children, and drug abuse is an international problem.

[Warpy]

28. Thank you for writing this

I was heading into surgery and didn't have time to fire off the same thing.

Where barren women get off telling the rest of us we're obligated to risk our lives being their baby machines is beyond me.

There are a lot of kids of all colors going without homes, often traumatized kids who've been knocked around by the system before they've finally been cleared for adoption; there are also kids all over the third world who are waiting for parents to adopt them and some of these kids are put up for adoption as infants.

This bleating about not enough white infants to adopt in the US is ridiculous. Too many other children are out there and desperate for homes to have it sound as anything but self centered.

[LeftyMom]

40. A friend of mine is infertile.

She's been undergoing infertility treatment for pretty much all of her adult life (she was diagnosed with PCOS really young) with no success. She wants, more than anything, to have a baby. And she's driven another friend down to the clinic and sat with her through the whole thing. She says it hurts her to see other people reject the thing she wants most, but at the same time she understands that another person's tragedy is not her opportunity. She'll make a good mom someday, because she's an understanding, principled and remarkably unselfish woman.

[Warpy]

50. A friend has two daughters just like her

The availability of abortion allowed one to go to med school, the other to law school. Waiting that long to start a family means they are both having great difficulty conceiving.

However, they realized what would have happened to them had they not been able to get safe, legal abortions when they were in their late teens.

I'm afraid it will always be bittersweet for infertile women, but Lincoln freed everybody. Expecting fertile women to be their involuntary baby producers would push us so far back into reproductive slavery that we would never be able to recover.

[reformedrethug]

77. My oldest daughter

is working her ass off in High School in order to get into medicine. She has made the personal commitment NOT to get preganate until she is ready. I fully support her decision altho I want grandkids LOL
My oldest son is Gay and I fully support his decision, his mother not but you gotta know her mother.so that kinda lowers the odds there, and I have a younger daughter so I MAY still have hope in a few years LOL

[reformedrethug]

75. Your friend

is EXACTLY who my posts are for. I am sorry that she cannot have children, I dated a lady that was in the same boat and I seen her pain every time she seen a happy family. Needless to say she is one of the pro-life fanatics and even tho we share the views that these babies could be put up for adoption thats where our similarities end.

[knitter4democracy]

42. Thank you--all this is spot on.

In certain areas of the US, fetal and maternal death rates in labor and soon afterwards are the same or worse than third world nations in Africa. So, we're going to put a woman at risk of death just so some people can feel better about it?

[gollygee]

44. Yes!

Of all the anti-abortion arguments, this one is particularly annoying. It isn't one woman's job to have a baby because another woman can't. And it isn't the job of poor women to breed babies for rich women. What an awful way to look at women - as brood mares.

[reformedrethug]

73. No it is the obligation

of both parties to practice birth control, redundant if they feel better about it so that they do not end up preganent.
If it gives the child a chance at life what is the big deal?

read my previous post, there are people out there that want children so badly they dont care the "skin color" and as my own example shows they not all care if they are perfectly healthy. They just want children PERIOD.

US birthmothers once they sign the forms permanently give up any parental rights and cannot attempt to locate the child.
I agree with the drugs issue, all 3 of the above mentioned children were either crack or cocain babies.

[CTyankee]

30. Women should not be considered brood mares for other women

who can't have children. A woman can make up her own mind as to whether she will or will not continue a pregnancy and give the baby up for adoption. That is her choice. Not yours.

[reformedrethug]

74. Where did I say that they should be REQUIRED

I simply presented a very viable option, and many agencies will provide all prenatal care including the birth costs.

[Warpy]

10. Then, by all means don't choose to have one, yourself

Just don't presume to judge for other women whose life stories you simply do not know.

[devilgrrl]

20. 50 million abortions, huh? Prove it!!!!

Where do these numbers come from? Let's see it!

Until then, I call BULLSHIT!!!!!

50 million abortions in the US....

uh huh, yeah, right, sure...

[ProdigalJunkMail]

22. not that it matters...

http://www.mccl.org/abortion_statistics.htm

[devilgrrl]

26. You're right, it doesn't matter. Thank you for posting the link.

eom

[ProfessorGAC]

104. I Question Their Data

Sorry, but they've got a vested interest in inflating these values. I don't trust them.
The Professor

[ProdigalJunkMail]

108. those numbers are well documented on about 20 sites...

you can google for the reference of your choice...

sP

[knitter4democracy]

41. So did my kidney tumor operation.

Medical stuff is nasty. Doctors are trained to do inhumane things to humans to keep them alive. When I read an article for surgeons on how to do my kind of kidney surgery, I freaked out and had to stop reading to go puke (ended up only being dry heaves, but it hurt). My surgeon did all that to keep me alive, and you know what, I'm still here.

Abortions are safer than the older, more traditional methods of causing a miscarriage, the ones known since Eve's daughters' time. In Exodus 20, if a man beats a pregnant woman badly enough she loses the baby, he's to pay a fine, but if he kills her as well, he's to be stoned to death. So, at least that long ago, womankind knew that beating a preggers woman could make her miscarriage--have an abortion--but also could make her die. So could mistletoe, shoving something into her cervix hard and repeatedly, or a thin crochet hook or knitting needle. Doctors came up with the abortion procedure to keep women from dying.

[gollygee]

46. Do you have a plan for what you would do with 50 million additional unwanted kids?

Where would they go and who would pay for their care?

[TommyO]

47. Based on your profile, it's a procedure that you will never go through

Leave the decision up to a woman and her medical provider, it's that simple.

[sinkingfeeling]

53. "So?", to quote Cheney. Do the 30,000 post-birth children who die every day around the world also

horrify you? Close to 50 million LEGAL abortions have been performed in this country since 1973 - 35 years. Yet more than 10 million CHILDREN die around the world each year. Abortions were probably performed at about the same rate when they were illegal here....big difference, women died from those. You think the 'procedure' sounds disgusting, try bleeding to death on the dirty floor of an illegal abortion provider.

[uppityperson]

57. What operation doesn't sound disgusting?

[Ice-9]

61. Open your eyes: most operations are disgusting.

Watch someone repair a ruptured colon, and I'll bet you'd wish you were watching an abortion.

[undeterred]

67. Welcome Chiloe.

I think its more like 1.5 million abortions per year - but it would be good if we could reduce the number. What would help would be better access to birth control education and birth control, and a better economic status for women. The largest number of women seeking abortions are very poor.

[JDPriestly]

8. Defining murder very simply as the taking a human life by force,

whether abortion is murder depends on when you believe that life commences. People do not agree on this. Abortion foes believe that life begins at conception.

There was a time when people believed that life began at the quickening, in approximately the 5th month when many mothers feel their babies move for the first time. I felt my babies move much earlier, so I don't know how they arrived at that date. It differs with different women.

The Bible speaks of the breath of life, suggesting that life begins at birth when the baby takes its first breath of air on its own. People who believe this would permit abortion any time before birth.

Some people may believe that the life of the soul exists eternally and that the soul is alive before and after birth. They may be reverent of all animal life and believe that killing any animal is virtually murder. They will go further than anti-abortionists and shun meat in any form.

Enough people subscribe to each of these theories that it is virtually impossible to reach consensus on the time at which to outlaw abortion. Generally, anti-abortionists define life as beginning at conception, so they are arguing for outlawing it at that time.

In my view, the devil's in the details when it comes to outlawing abortion. The government would have to intrude in the personal lives of women and delve into the medical histories and procedures that women undergo that making abortion illegal would be impractical. That is because there is a procedure that is commonly used to perform abortions also has a medical purpose unrelated to abortion. That is the dilation and curettage which can be used to abort but also is quite necessary to heal some other conditions in women who are not pregnant. Would the government require doctors to file reports on their reasons for performing all of these procedures? The idea of it is absurd. I don't think the anti-abortion folks have really thought this through. (Back in the old days women who were wealthier or who were able to persuade doctors to help them had dilations and curettages that were really abortions. Many women went to quacks for this procedure, and some of them died as a result.)

There are two reasons for leaving the abortion issue up to women themselves. 1) different beliefs about when life begins, and 2) the bureaucracy and invasions of privacy that would be necessary to enforce abortion laws.

[spoony]

A fine, even-handed evaluation. nt.

[ThatsMyBarack]

9. I think....

all pro-life cretins should just mind their own business!

[pink-o]

11. Nobody really is "for" abortion...

We're for women being in control of our own destiny, and not letting the fundies define our social standing. Unwanted pregnancies should be taken care of with as much info and options as a woman needs to make a decision.

The stupid thing is, the Fundies and us actually should have the same agenda: make all pregnancies wanted pregnancies. That comes from real sex education, access to birth control and a dialogue with women that's open and non-shameful or moralistic. But those fucking Fundie hypocrites won't even acknowledge that women have a right to their sexuality, so instead you have ill-informed girls getting pregnant, unwanted kids getting thrown into foster care (and if these idiots really cared about children and the sanctity of life, they'd be working to do something about that, not protesting women's clinics!)girls getting STDs and cervical cancer, and human sexuality shoved under the carpet, regulated and shamed.

Being an agnostic frees me from all that moralizing about sex, and gives me an objective viewpoint: the stupidest thing that humans have ever done, the root of all our suffering comes from sexual judgement and shame. Without that stigma, we could be a truly loveing and benevolent species!

[sinkingfeeling]

12. Let's see, responders #2, #6, and #7 are male and will never be pregnant nor faced

with either a medical complication nor have the ultimate responsibilty for a child. They say abortion is 'evil' or 'murder' or that all those babies could be adopted. What rot!

9 out of every 10 abortions in the USA are performed prior to the 12th. week of pregnancy. Can you tell which of these is the 'baby'?

[guyanakoolaid]

13. I recently saw a brilliant video of a reporter asking abortion protestors one question:

What should happen to woman who get abortions?

Almost every protester asked didn't have an answer, and admitted they hadn't thought about it. The reporter would clarify: "Well, if it's a crime, surely there should be a punishment, right"? One person out of at least a dozen could respond yes, the women deserved jail time, the others were left deep in thought.

Definitely a question to remember should you debate an pro-lifer

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lars39]

25. "Lifestyle" abortions?

A woman has a duty to herself.

[Crunchy Frog]

31. Most baby boomers are too old to be fertile.

Certainly not enough fertile ones to account for 90% of abortions. Nice try though.

[uppityperson]

32. "lifestyle abortions"? 90%? Where do you get this info from?

Link to source is needed when you present "facts".

You do know that "baby-boomers from the "Hell no we won't go" generation" are 45-65 yrs old, don't you?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

38. I guess it depends on the definition of 'lifestyle'

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

If the health of the mother or fetus are the only things considered NOT lifestyle choices...the respondent here would be correct...

sP

[sinkingfeeling]

33. What a load of crap! Nice for you to drop by DU for a few days.

A broad cross section of U.S. women have abortions:
56% of women having abortions are in their 20s;
61% have one or more children;
67% have never married;
57% are economically disadvantaged;
88% live in a metropolitan area; and
78% report a religious affiliation.


http://www.guttmacher.org/media/presskits/2005/06/28/abortionoverview.html

Adding another verifiable stat:

About half of American women have experienced an unintended pregnancy, and at current rates more than one-third (35%) will have had an abortion by age 45.

Hate to tell you, but baby boomers are way over 45.

[raccoon]

36. Are you mathematically challenged or did you flunk Sex Ed?

As another poster pointed out, most baby boomers are too old to get pregnant, or else quickly getting there.

Do you hear me tripping over your bridge?

[LeftyMom]

39. Do you think women too old to be fertile are having mock abortions for fun?

At 50, mom's on the young end of boomerdom, and her kids are all old enough to have kids of their own. I'm much more worried about her getting a hip fracture than an abortion.

Do the damned math. Past 40 or so, chances of getting pregnant accidentally, or for that matter, intentionally without significant medical intervention, are pretty slender. Even with a fairly late date for the end of the baby boom, 1964, the youngest boomer women would be 44, and thus quite unlikely to be pregnant, accidentally or no.

[gollygee]

43. Is "lifestyle abortion" the new phrase for "on-demand abortions"

all abortions are done on demand, for goodness sakes.

Lifestyle is true in that a woman is choosing what her life will be. Whose choice should it be?

Anyway, women don't have recreational abortions.

[Warpy]

51. Anything to make a woman's choice look frivolous!

The one person they lose in all this wringing of hands is the living, thinking, feeling woman into whose body an unwanted pregnancy has intruded and whose life it now threatens.

If they ever stopped to consider the woman, they'd find all their high minded arguments evaporating.

[Fox Mulder]

45. I've got a feeling your stay here will be really short.

Dumbass.

[Rob H.]

18. There's a local fundagelical church near me

and on one of their broadcasts the (Southern Baptist) minister spent the better part of an hour railing about abortion and listing statistics; total number in the U.S., then TN, then the county the church is in, etc. Not one mention of the ~46 million people in this country without health insurance or ~12.6 million children in the US who can't get enough to eat. For some reason he isn't as outraged about those statistics.

[raccoon]

98. Great post. nt

[noonwitch]

19. I am pro-choice, but I understand the other side's arguments

I do think that most abortion opponents take the stand they do because they care about children and women. They think that abortion is bad for women, that women feel guilty afterwards (many do), and that the baby deserves a chance to be born. I don't agree with them, but I do understand that they are good people, who can offer women who are unsure another option. Many antiabortion people do adopt children and some of the church-based organizations can and do assist pregnant women in getting things they need.

[pink-o]

34. I have a far less optimistic perception of the pro-lifers

First of all, those in power calling for an end to legal abortion are reactionaries who don't want women to control their own destiny nor have a right to their sexuality. It's all about keeping women oppressed--otherwise those same fire-and-brimstone breathing preachers would go after the men who so careless left their sperm where it could help bring about life. But they don't: male sexuality is only shamed when the man is gay.

Naomi Wolf pointed out that the term "promiscuous" is only used for women and gay men. Straight men are encouraged to go forth and fuck any chick, encouraged by the church and by their social position. They take no consequence for unwanted pregnancy.

So in order to keep women as second-class citizens--and of course for the patriarchal society to make use of them as sexual objects--it's necessary to shame and undermine their control. Keep them uneducated, uninformed--and without options if they find themselves pregnant.

The whole idea of "caring about murdered babies" is a complete blind. As I posted earlier, if that were the case these same people would quit screaming outside of women's clinics and actually DO SOMETHING constructive about the problem of unwanted pregnancies.

[momster]

106. FDLS -- the Right's Dream Scenario

Not the polygamy so much as the unfettered domination of women and the mindset of 'woman as vessel' and vessel only. Those women were taught from girlhood that their only value on this earth was as a receptacle for some man's sperm. They are taught to be as unindividual as possible, to speak in little-girl voices, and to pop out as many children from the onset of menses to menopause as possible. Considering how many of the Falwellian Christians have stated that their next objective is outlawing contraception all together, can we doubt that the FDLS group's dynamics is *exactly* what they'd like to see for every American family?

[sutz12]

21. Murder is a legal term which includes specific forms of wrongful killing.

Abortion is not on the list, yet. Therefore anybody who calls it murder is lying.

The wish of fundies is to get abortion defined as murder. It is our task to prevent that.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

35. Exactly right - murder is a special legal term of art

First, is an abortion the killing of a human being, a homocide? When does a human being start to exist? Even if it is, not every homocide is a murder. Killing someone in military combat is a type of homocide but it isn't a murder. Murder in most jurisdictions is defined something like: "the unlawful intentional killing of a human being by another with malice aforethought".

[area51]

27. If abortion is murder ...

... then why do the nazis fight so hard against SCHIP, which helps keep children alive and healthy? </rhetorical> They don't believe abortion is murder, otherwise they'd fight for single-payer for everyone, and fight to end the death penalty. It's all about controlling women and punishing them for having sex.

[Snarkturian Clone]

37. I'm pro choice but I believe abortion is murder.

There are necessary evils in this world.

[sinkingfeeling]

52. You do know that less than 1/3 of all fertilized human 'eggs' survive naturally? So how is the

destruction of an embryo, murder?

[Iris]

71. more from someone who will never have to make this decision.

Sure is easy for people without a womb to throw out words like "evil" and "murder" - isn't it?

[Snarkturian Clone]

82. That's one of the reasons I'm pro-choice, though...

because I won't have to ever make that decision. I live about 200 feet from a Planned Parenthood... I have to walk by the place every day and think about it, so don't tell me my opinion doesn't matter because I don't have a womb. A womb is not an extra brain.

[Iris]

86. So, move.

But don't go around calling women who make this decision murderers and then smugly call yourself "pro-choice"

[spoony]

96. Well said

[PeaceNikki]

101. Men talk about this issue, women live it

[dysfunctional press]

83. in a marriage, it's a decision by BOTH partners.

nt

[Iris]

87. Not necessarily.

I woman can be pregnant one day and not the next and no one but she and her doctor has to know. Ultimately, she is the one who will consent to the procedure, so, while the opinion and feelings of her husband may be important, she is still the one making the decision. A woman does not lose her right to choose once she is married. And she shouldn't be coerced one way or another (as in having the decision to abort made FOR her by someone who will not undergo the procedure).

[dysfunctional press]

94. in that case, the woman is betraying her marriage, making it a sham.

in a REAL marriage, BOTH partners are part of the decision.

[gollygee]

95. In a healthy marriage, a woman would naturally bring it up with her husband

but not all marriages are healthy. If a woman is the victim of domestic violence, for instance, she might not want to talk to her husband about it.

[spoony]

89. Without making a judgement about the argument, your logic is

lacking. It's like saying "people die naturally so how is destroying them murder."

[sinkingfeeling]

105. No, I'm pointing out that there is a point in time when it is impossible to call the destruction of

a fertilized egg or an embryo either 'murder' or 'natural event'. How is anybody going to prove that a 'natural' miscarriage occurred and not an abortion? How will 'they' regulate a woman every month to determine if she passed an embryo?

I've also been known to ask 'pro-lifers' how it is they can worship a god that destroys 2/3's of his 'gifts' to humans?

Edited.

[Yupster]

62. That's my wife's argument.

Absolutely. Of course abortion is murder, but it should be legal.

Seems utterly illogical to me, but that's been her view for years.

[uppityperson]

63. Try this.

Women have always been able to get abortions, will always be able to, depending on how much money and/or power they have.

Roe v Wade made it equal access, so those unable to travel to places and/or pay high fees to private doctors no longer had to make do with "back alley" abortions, do it yourself abortions, unethical abortions where you have to fuck the provider first, abortions where you had a high chance of getting deathly infections.

So, I work to keep them legal for that reason.

[Snarkturian Clone]

80. There it is.

Women are going to have them whether they are legal or not so they might as well be safe and be an option for everyone.

[uppityperson]

109. That was some of the reasoning behind Roe v Wade

It is an issue of control. Limitations have been put on abortions due to viability but equal access and ability to have control over one's body are some of the basis of Roe v Wade.

[spoony]

92. Well, legally, and perhaps morally, there are situations

where taking another life--even when you acknowledge it is a human life with all the rights that entails--is arguably acceptable. Self defence for example. Euthanasia, too. So I think your wife's position isn't necessarily illogical.

[Lars39]

85. At best you are Choice Tolerant.

Using words such as murder and evil does nothing to advance choice and does everything to shore up anti-choice sentiment.

[kineneb]

48. And who would raise the unwanted children? The Gov.?

Where would the money come from...
to raise millions of kids in orphanages until they are 18?
to house them in prisons after they can't make it on their own?

Don't tell me the prospective mother or father would or could raise the child. What BS. If men could become pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

[momster]

107. Abortion wouldn't be a sacrament,

if men could get pregnant, but you could go to a drive-thru and get one on your lunch hour.

[colinmom71]

54. No, it is not murder, nor will it ever be...

The term "murder" is a *legal term* defined as the unjust killing of a person that is committed with deliberate and malicious intent. Abortion does not fit that criteria for it to be considered as murder. Anti-abortion advocates use the term murder in order to evoke an emotional response, but they use the term wrongfully since abortion does not meet the actual definition of murder.

Women are not acting unjustly by terminating a pregnancy if they are not willing to risk the varied health complications that pregnancy and childbirth can present. Self-defense is not unjust. So the unjust killing part of the murder definition does not pass muster.

I'm also pretty sure that women who elect to terminate a pregnancy are not doing so in order to just kill a fetus. Their motivation is simply to not continue the pregnancy and have the baby that would result later in time. I don't think women have abortions with the mindset of "Well, I'll show that fetus! Having the nerve to develop in MY body!" or "I like to kill fetuses for hobby!". So here the willful malice pat of the definition of murder is also not met.

But most importantly, fetuses are not legally persons. Since a fetus developing in utero is legally indistinguishable from the pregnant woman (in so far as legal powers of consent are concerned), the fetus cannot be legally classified as an individual person. The very nature of pregnancy does not allow for the fetus to be considered an autonomous individual. Anything that would be done (medically, etc.) to benefit the fetus would have to also involve use of the pregnant woman's body. Therefore, anything that would be done for the fetus would ethically, morally, and legally require the pregnant woman's consent to having her own health altered or jeopardized to achieve that goal. And that includes the very basic issue of whether the woman chooses and consents to remaining pregnant...

Ergo, abortion can never be considered murder.

[millionaire]

56. I don't see it as murder

Unless the baby is about 8 or 9 months old.

[ismnotwasm]

58. It's a personal medical decision n/t

[Jamastiene]

59. This, I GOTTA read.

:popcorn:

:beer:

[Ice-9]

60. When forced to carry their argument to its logical extremes,

many "pro-lifers" will effectively concede that they do not believe a fetus is really the equivalent of a human being. Makes you wonder whether they're "pro-life" or whether they're pro something else -- most likely, controlling women.

[Cerridwen]

64. Then miscarriages are manslaughter?

And what do we call our monthly periods during which an egg is not fertilized? Or is fertilized but the body expels it? Criminal negligence?

This could get "fun."

:sarcasm:

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

68. Pregnant women must remain strapped to a wheelchair

never leave their homes and never be exposed to any activity or excitement of any kind throughout their pregnancy if there's even a 0.1% chance it could result in a manslaughter, uh, er miscarriage.

[Cerridwen]

70. Screw that. The CDC has already put out an advisory that women of

child bearing age should be treated as perpetually, potentially pregnant. All of us need to be in wheelchairs and handled as the delicate flowers we are.

Serious, serious :sarcasm:

[AlphaCentauri]

76. Sometimes I get confused about the abortion dilemma

some one can be jail for killing a dog but not for interrupting the life of 6 month fetus, at some point can fetus an animals be compare? what are your thoughs?

[dysfunctional press]

81. a LOT of people DO consider it murder- that's WHY it's a BIG issue.

duh.

(i personally don't consider it murder and i'm pro-choice, but i can definitely understand the pro-life argument)

[Rex_Goodheart]

102. You missed the entire point

DUH

[dysfunctional press]

111. and what was your convoluted "point"?

there's been plenty of violence over abortion by some of the people who do view it as murder.

or hadn't you noticed?

[PeaceNikki]

84. I will refer you to my signature. They are Anti-choice. NOT pro-life.

And I recommend that everyone watch a documentary called "Lake of Fire"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0841119/

↓

[Echo In Light]

93. Thanks for the link...and you're correct re the skewed terminology

"Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers." ~ George Carlin

I'll have to track down that doc film.

[PeaceNikki]

100. It's on Netflix - available for online viewing

http://www.netflix.com/Movie/Lake_of_Fire/70077517?trkid=222336&lnkctr=srchrd-sr&strkid=948058242_0_0

[Echo In Light]

103. Thanky

:hi:

[gollygee]

99. Love your sig!

So true!

[PeaceNikki]

88. Where's the violence over the abortions?

http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/history_violence.html

HISTORY OF VIOLENCE

Since the 1973 Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision that made abortion legal, there has been an organized campaign by anti-abortion extremists which has resulted in escalating levels of violence against women's health care providers. In an attempt to stop abortion, anti-abortion extremists have chosen to take the law into their own hands.

What began as peaceful protests with picketing moved to harassing clinic staff and patients as they entered clinics and eventually escalated to blockading clinic entrances.

This foundation of harassment led to violence with the first reported clinic arson in 1976 and a series of bombings in 1978. Arsons and bombings have continued until this day. Anti-abortion extremists have also used chemicals to block women's access to abortion employing butyric acid to vandalize clinics and sending anthrax threat letters to frighten clinic staff.

In the early 1990s, anti-abortion extremists concluded that murdering providers was the only way to stop abortion. The first provider was murdered in 1993. Since then, there have been six subsequent murders and numerous attempted murders of clinic staff and physicians, several of which occurred in their own homes.

Extreme Violence

The following are incidents that were reported to or obtained by NAF. Extreme violence has the potential to destroy clinics and harm the lives of clinic staff. http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/history_extreme.asp">More

Murders and Shootings

Anti-abortion extremists perpetrated an unprecedented level of violence in 1993 with the first murder of an abortion provider, Dr. David Gunn. Since that time, anti-abortion extremists have murdered or attempted to murder others involved in reproductive health care. http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/murders.asp">More

Arsons and Bombings

Arsons and bombings at clinics can cause widespread destruction. Over two hundred of these crimes have been committed against reproductive health care clinics since the mid-1970s. http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/arsons.asp">More

Butyric Acid Attacks

Butyric acid is a clear, colorless liquid with an unpleasant, rancid, vomit-like odor. Anti-abortion extremists began using butyric acid as a weapon against abortion facilities in early 1991. Butyric acid disrupts services, closes clinics for clean-up, and harasses patients and staff. http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/butyric_acid.asp">More

Anthrax Threats

From 1998 through 2002 letters threatening to contain anthrax were used as a tool to intimidate clinics. Over 650 letters have been received, causing clinics to be closed and staff to be subjected to decontamination procedures and placed on unnecessary medications. None of the letters ultimately contained real anthrax. Clayton Waagner was convicted of sending 554 of the letters, but no arrests have been made in the remaining 100 cases. http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/anthrax.html">More

[Galway girl]

91. Oh really ? Arn't we doing that in iraq

Noy much rioting of the 100 or 200 thousand we killed in iraq yet?

[uppityperson]

110. To answer your OP, there is violence. Drs murdered, pickets,

nastiness. You could say the same thing about Iraq.

Imagine a society like Iraq where a million or so people are exterminated. There should be massive rioting in the streets to end the slaughter. Civil war, even.

Where's the violence over the Occupation of Iraq?