Are electric vehicles the answer?

[GaYellowDawg]

Fossil fuels will do nothing but continue to climb in price. Perhaps electric vehicles could suffice for short-range commuter needs where no one has to drive more than 200 miles in a given day. I feel that government investment into companies like Tesla Motors could really help with that need. However, I'm not sure our grid could handle it.

Also, what about long-range, large-scale transport that's handled right now by trains and 18-wheelers? Are electric motors up to that task? Could the grid handle that?

Please note: the point of this post isn't to call that technology into question. Frankly, I'd prefer to see electric vehicles on the roads more than any other kind. I'd like for someone more knowledgable to take a swing at my questions, because I sure would feel better with some hope.

[The2ndWheel]

1. It depends on the question

There is no such thing as an environmentally friendly car. Every species impacts the planet, to one degree or another, simply by existing on it. Our species impacts the habitat significantly, because we use more than our fair share of energy. We will not decrease our impact by increasing our ability to do more things.

If the question is related to the environment, then no, mechanized transport, powered by whatever source, is not the answer.

If the question is related to economic proconducsumption, then it might be an answer.

[Lerkfish]

2. if the local grid is powered by hydroelectric dams or windpower, yes. However

most electric plants are coal or oil driven, so the carbon footprint cost is just redistributed. there might be some savings, but it doesn't nullify the effect.

[GaYellowDawg]

4. Well, I will point something out...

If we reduced carbon pollution point sources from millions to hundreds (e.g., from cars to coal plants), it would be much easier to apply carbon sequestering technology.

[Lerkfish]

16. valid point.

[Radical Activist]

18. carbon capture technology for coal plants is still unproven

and is much more expensive than wind power.

[TheWraith]

29. Also, a modern coal plant is still cleaner per energy produced than a car.

Hard to believe, but it's true.

[sendero]

59. Not only that...

... but electric motors are very efficient compared to internal combustion, which is laughably inefficient.

[mainegreen]

3. Mass transit is incomparably better.

Ok, so maybe it is comparable, but 'incomparably' really gets the emphasis across, doesn't it?

[GaYellowDawg]

6. I'm sure it is.

And yes, it does get the emphasis across.

I would think that would take a hell of a lot of new infrastructure. Am I wrong? Please understand that I'm not arguing, I'm genuinely asking for answers.

[mainegreen]

7. Bus.

No new infrastructure needed.

[GaYellowDawg]

12. *smacks forehead* Duh. nm

nm

[Radical Activist]

22. New infrastructure means new jobs.

Sounds good to me. Let's divert some of the billions we spend on roads every year and build more rail lines.

[Kitty Herder]

13. While I agree with you, that only works in areas where there is mass transit.

There are many rural areas where there is no such thing (like where I live) and homes, workplaces, stores, etc. are far-flung.

[mainegreen]

17. I mean implementing it is a big part of the solution.

Using existing mass transit can't be part of the solution because it hardly exists.

[dysfunctional press]

24. it already exists where it's feasible.

"mass transit" is not the answer for rural and far flung communities. for many people and places it just doesn't/wouldn't work.

[mainegreen]

32. Untrue.

It most certainly can be part of the answer for rural communities.
Mass transit need not only take the form of city route/time format.
Some rural areas currently do have mass transit, and many more had mass transit, including light rail, over a hundred years ago with far lower population densities.
It's even more untrue when inter-community travel is thrown into the mix, including travel between rural communities.

[dysfunctional press]

37. if there was enough demand to support it, it would be there.

a hundred years ago people didn't have automobiles, and most didn't travel very far or very often.
the cost to run light-rail lines to even half the communities in the u.s. today would be beyond astronomical; especially with china/india gobbling up as much of the world's steel as they can get their hands on.

[mainegreen]

48. As gas goes up,

watch it spring back into existence.

[dysfunctional press]

57. extremely doubtful.

the investment would be better spent developing alternative energy sources for individual vehicles.
people like their own transportation- lifestyles are also much different than they were 100 years ago.

[Radical Activist]

43. My parents remember them in our t own.

The lines between towns in the area. Its a shame they were all torn out.

[TheWraith]

46. Mass transit doesn't work in a rural setting.

Try going out to a rural area if you don't believe me. Think population density of 100 people per square mile. And that's not even really far out there.

[mainegreen]

47. There's a world of difference between rural and wilderness.

I'm not thinking about ten people here and there in wilderness areas. The impact of their usage of cars is minuscule. Rural, however would constitute huge areas of america, say like Maine, where mass transit most certainly would work.

I grew up in a rural area. We used to have mass transit. It worked. Hell, there were still working remnants of it as I grew up.

Rural mass transit works.

[Kitty Herder]

42. I think it would be feasible on a small scale where I live.

We could save a lot of gas money if we had a bus run between our county seat and the county seat of the county just to the north several times a day. It's been suggested. But most people here are opposed to it. Don't ask me why. I suppose they would rather spend a fortune on gas.

[KharmaTrain]

5. There Are Many Answers...Not Just One

Electric power works well in an urban setting...deliveries, mail, shuttles...short distances with limited loads. For "heavier lifting", other sources need to be developed. The one I've long supported was Liquid Hydrogen...a source that can deliver the octane and power for a more powerful engine or work for long haul driving. Another that I've been reading up on is Methane.

The big need is to create a "Manhattan Project" to rush alternative sources of energy into the market place...spur growth and development in self-reliant energy sources and resources. Maybe, just maybe, people are finally getting it into their heads that fossil fuels have to go...and the sooner the better.

[GaYellowDawg]

11. That makes plenty of sense.

And I completely agree with the "Manhattan Project" idea. You know, the difference between Democratic and Republican leadership is this: when a Democrat sets out a big project for the government, it gets done. Develop a nuclear weapon? Done. Win WWII? Done. Put a man on the moon within the decade? Done.

Then there's the Republican version: reduce foreign oil dependence? No attempt at all. Put a man on Mars? Not even started. "Win hearts and minds"? Just the opposite.

It's no wonder Republicans say government doesn't work. They have no success at making it work.

[PVnRT]

53. Liquid hydrogen presents a number of difficulties

...most of which revolve around storage. You need to keep it 1) cold and/or 2) under incredibly high pressure to force it to stay as a liquid. Hydrogen and helium are the only two elements that the Earth's gravity cannot force to stay in the atmosphere. It is hard to keep them around.

You would be talking about spending a whole lot of money to keep the production/storage facilities safe, not to mention the difficulties in shipping it. I agree about Manhattan Project 2, but I don't see hydrogen as being the way to go.

[KharmaTrain]

61. Any Thoughts About Methane?

I've seen a lot of arguments about the storage of LH...or its safety (when not stored properly it makes a nice big exlosion...but so does petroleum). I've also heard about the production and storage problems but that there have been developments that don't create the LH until right before being pumped into a car or whatever...thus eliminating the pressure situation. Or, that, as in any other challenge, it's something we work over, under or right through it.

Recently I've seen a few articles on using methane...and "mining" our garbage dumps as a source of portable, high octane fuel. I haven't found much more than theory on it...but sounds like another possibility. IMHO, any option should be explored...the need to get away from fossil fuels is imperative for not only our financial future but our political one as well.

[napi21]

8. I watched a "NOVA" program the other night on PBS. They were

reviewing several fuel efficient cars that are already built and functional but not in production. One of the ideas I was quite impressed with was cars made from carbon fiber instead of steel. They are significantly lighter weight therefore enable the mfg. to make a 5 passenger car that weighs much less than the smallest ones now made and therefore require less fuel to move them down the road. Almost all of them were powered by lithium batteries. Some of them were total battery power, some were Hydrogen fuel cell, some were rechargable plug-ins. The program did a wonderful presentation and many of these suggestions did sound like the cure for our oil adiction.

Here's a link to what I found online of that program. I'm not positive if it's the entire show split into different segments (that's what it looks like) or if it's only a preview, but the one segment says 8 min. in length so I think it's the whole thing. If you have time, take a look. Pretty interesting stuff.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/car/program.html

[PVnRT]

54. Carbon fiber will be an absolute must in an electric car

What's needed is a way to bring down the cost of making carbon fiber panels in the first place, which is the big barrier. People who race cars have been using them for years precisely because they do reduce weight and increase acceleration characteristics.

[dysfunctional press]

58. tehy should try to find a way to make carbon fiber using sequestered co2.

that could solve some problems.

[napi21]

60. Yes, they explained that on that show. They did say that the guy who invented

the prototype carbon fiber car is now spending all his time on developing a cost efficient way to mass produce carbon fiber panels. He said he is making pretty decent progress, and he doesn't think the solution is very far off.

[Kitty Herder]

9. Not if coal power plants are the fuel source. Or nuclear.

[ItNerd4life]

10. 200 mile electric vehicles would help

I think the grid would inititally have trouble handling it. It would cause an increase in the costs of electricity. That's why I believe many people would then start to consider solar panels on their houses just to recharge their car.

[slackmaster]

14. I plan to do a combination of an electric car + grid-tied photovoltaic array on my house

During the day I will pump power into the grid. At night I'll suck some back out to charge up the car.

[Radical Activist]

23. Even the power company will love you for that.

You'll be giving them power during the day when demand is higher, and you'll be using it at night when other people are using less. I think you'll have the ideal set up.

[dysfunctional press]

25. we looked into doing that as well- but the costs were/are just too high...

when it becomes affordable, more people probably will be doing it as well.

[Indenturedebtor]

26. Yes that is what I'd like to do as well

If I have to live in a city that doesn't have reliable public transport again that is. We're planning on moving to Boston as soon as we are able. We'd like a smaller place with a smaller footprint and NO STUPID CARS!!!!!!!!!!

I hate owning a car. Costs too much money, makes too much work, and ruins the planet. It makes me feel guilty to drive :(

[SoCalDem]

15. the problem in this.. the POWER still has to come from somewhere

most power plants still use COAL.. It's like squeezing a water balloon..it just changes shape and the bulge goes to another part of the balloon..

[Radical Activist]

21. Electric cars powered by coal still have lower total emissions than

a conventional car, even when you include pollution from the power plant. Its a more efficient use of energy.

[baby_mouse]

28. Also, you don't have to use coal. NT

[LSK]

33. solar cells? overnight excess capacity that is being unused?

Home windmills, home solar cells, there are options.

[SoCalDem]

34. Why you ninny!!

How could the Kenny-boys of the world possibly make fortunes if people had their OWN generating facilities..

Can you even IMAGINE where we would be today, IF:

thirty years ago, we had set out to install solar on EVERY roof in America?

The technology exists and has existed for decades, but of course as fast as a patent was issued, the oil companies snatched it up, and promptly shelved it ..so it had to keep being re-invented, and then pooh-poohed by media as too costly..inefficient.etc..no accident, that!

[LSK]

36. and Reagan ripped solar cells off the White House roof

He fucked up this country in so many ways.

[SoCalDem]

38. and was PROUD of it too

:puke:

now we have macho-missile launchers instead :puke:

[endarkenment]

19. Q: what cars are really expensive and not terribly useful?

[Radical Activist]

20. Plug-in hybrids can go more than 200 miles.

They seem to offer the best combination of distance, practicality and fuel savings. I'm waiting for the Chevy Volt.

Actually it all works together very well. Wind turbines generate the most power in the evening when the wind picks up and power use is usually lower. But, if people are in the habit of plugging in their electric car when they get home in the evening then the extra power demand can be met by wind.

Trains already use electric engines.

[TheWraith]

27. Yes, they are .

"Perhaps electric vehicles could suffice for short-range commuter needs where no one has to drive more than 200 miles in a given day."

Actually even that limitation need not apply, if we simply improve fast-recharge batteries, or produce high-output fuel cells.

Even if this weren't done, there would still be ways around the problem of range. For instance, build long-haul vehicles with standardized, replaceable battery packs. Places like truck stops can have simple facilities to pull spent packs, replace them with charged ones, and take the old one to recharge, rather like a propane cyclinder exchange.

"I feel that government investment into companies like Tesla Motors could really help with that need. However, I'm not sure our grid could handle it."

There's a surprising amount of free room in our grid. As much as 20% of our power generation is simply unused during off-peak hours, which is when most EV charging would happen. Plus, there are plenty of ways to boost energy production.

"Also, what about long-range, large-scale transport that's handled right now by trains and 18-wheelers? Are electric motors up to that task?"

Yes. In fact, there are many trains that already run on electricity. Maglev trains are a perfect example, and they also avoid some of the logistical difficulties usually found in other kinds of electric trains, while still being very efficient. They get 10 times the energy efficiency of a car for the same passenger-miles at 300 miles per hour, and 50 times at 150 miles per hour.

Big tractor trailers typically have motors running up to 600 horsepower, which is also quite feasible and in fact currently done with electric motors. Energy storage is the only even questionable issue.

"Could the grid handle that?"

There's no doubt that if we convert over entirely to EVs, we'll want more grid power. Fortunately, grid power doesn't always mean fossil fuels, while combustion vehicles do.

[Solon]

30. They are not very efficient, and I don't see how they will completely replace internal combustion...

automobiles. The most practical solution is mass transit, electric trains, light rail, and buses for most transit and freight needs. The problem with cars, whether electric or oil powered is that they are very inefficient, you are hauling around over 2000 pounds of steel and plastic with you just to transport yourself from place to place, that's energy intensive, regardless of where the energy comes from. The goal isn't to use less oil, its to use less net energy than we have in the past to perform the same jobs.

[TheWraith]

45. Actually they are INCREDIBLY efficient.

An average gasoline powered car requires 2600 watt-hours worth of gasoline to travel one mile. An electric car requires around 200 to 250 watt hours to travel the same distance. In effect, you're talking about 250-300 miles to the gallon for electric vehicle.

[LSK]

31. they can replace a lot of cars for commuters who drive less than 50 miles per day

And they can start being used TODAY.

[LSK]

35. Thom Hartmann is talking about this right now

[Strelnikov_]

39. The conclusion I have reached is electrification, both personal and freight

Electric cars, electric trains, electric trucks (trams). The part that cannot be electrified can be run on biofuel and a modest CTL program (< 1 Mbbl/dy total).

Electric cars (w/ regen braking) require 1/7th of the energy of an equivalent sized IC powered vehicle to get a payload from point A to B in typical driving conditions.

Parallel to transforming the transportation energy carrier, we need to transform society. In a general sense, re-localize. Much shorter commutes, essential goods and services produced locally as much as possible.

Problem is, we will still need personal transport to negotiate the sprawl built over generations during the transition that will take generations. The following class of vehicle is probably the future in this transition. Designed using bicycle concepts (the most efficient form of transportation), a small, lightweight EV.

People should probably not get their hopes up for anything bigger, as there are not the resources to build a fleet of EV's equal to the number of IC personal vehicles we have today.

Oh, and did you know that a conventional IC personal vehicle (say, a Ford Taurus) is more energy efficient than all forms of mass transit when the vehicle carries two or more passengers. From an energy conservation standpoint, small efficient EV's make much more sense than mass transit except for the most densely traveled routes.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

40. Here's a do-it-yourself diesel/electric hybrid that gets over 200 miles per gallon

It's called the XR-3 and the plans are coming out next month. This guy is a design genius who works with fiber composite materials and shows people how to build their own super lightweight recumbent bicycles, boats, and cars. He's got another gasoline car design that supposedly gets 60 miles per gallon and would cost about $3,500 to build yourself. The XR-3 hybrid that you build from plans supposedly gets well over 200 miles per gallon and seats two. The only thing is that I don't know if it is street legal everywhere. I believe it has only three wheels so it might be registered as a motorcycle instead of a car, which might make it easier to get registered. California's DMV and Highway Patrol, for example, seem to be established to say 'no' to anyone who wants to do anything out of the ordinary, whatever it might be. I even had a very well-known regular commercial car originally imported to the U.S. in 1957 that I wanted to get back on the road and the Highway Patrol never heard of the model and made me jump through two years of hoops and three inspections before they would even consider allowing me to register it.

http://www.rqriley.com/xr3.htm

[madokie]

41. Locomotives are diesel electric

Diesel engine turning an electrical generator driving an electric motor that is turning the wheels pulling the train. Some large haul trucks used in mines etc are diesel electrics too and for the same reason. An electric motor has its most torque right off its rotor being stationary

[harun]

49. If I am not mistaken these are diesel electric

[madokie]

56. yep sure are

[JCMach1]

44. PArt of the answer-- what is needed is energy diversity...

[timtom]

50. What about

cars that run on water

or compressed air?

[Javaman]

51. I believe that all electric cars should be sold with an optional solar panel charging kit. nt

[Fumesucker]

52. They can be for some people under some conditions..

At the moment electrics are not practical for a lot of people.

More R&D still needs to be done on battery technology, the rest of it, motors, controllers and so forth is ready for prime time right now.

[jpljr77]

55. Yes

Combined with a concerted effort to improve electricity production in America and reduce personal electricity consumption.

And every dime of research money should go -- in my opinion, of course -- to solar cell efficiency research and (sorry, I have to go here) building more nuclear reactors.