Holy shit. Bibles were being distributed in my daughter's public middle school today!

[moc]

:wow:

I just sent a terse email to the principal and vice-principals demanding a phone call and an explanation.

For those of you in North Texas, this is in Plano ISD.

:wow:

[Gidney N Cloyd]

1. The little green ones the Gideons give out?

[Thothmes]

110. they use to be sort of a reddish brown years ago.

[Prefer]

2. As they would say in the Bible Belt:

"You're just a BIGOT!"

[formercia]

158. It's the Bible Jesus would use if he were alive today.

Don't you believe in Jay-sus? :sarcasm:

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fuzz]

5. True, but try passing out the Torah, Book or Mormon . .

[Thepricebreaker]

7. Let them pass out anything they want.. people get bent out of shape over books.. amazes me...

[Bluebear]

19. Uh, no, it's illegal. nt

[AZ Criminal JD]

30. What law makes it illegal?

[Bluebear]

37. Unconstitutional.

http://www.aclu-em.org/pressroom/2008pressreleases/010808acluapplaudsdecision.htm

“Based on the undisputed evidence before me, I conclude that the defendants’ purpose is the promotion of Christianity by distributing Bibles to elementary school students,” Judge Perry wrote in her 42-page decision. “The policy has the principle or primary effect of advancing religion by conveying a message of endorsement to elementary school children.”

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

48. INteresting, so you have no problem with handing out Bibles in school?

[Rosemary2205]

86. LOL

DU cracks me up sometimes.

[Richard Steele]

93. "Atheist lawyer"- is that better or worse than a "Jew lawyer" in your worldview?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

95. There you've gone and done it

:spray:
:rofl:

[Richard Steele]

153. Yes, it would seem that I have. Sometimes, the OBVIOUS needs to be stated, even if just for effect.

And to GOOD effect this time, as it turns out.

That was one of my last posts before I headed off across town tonight...
When I got back, I saw that not only have BamaCRAP's vile posts been deleted,
but his tag-team partner "Thepricebreaker" had a pizza delivered.
Hold the cheese, extra granite!

[Bluebear]

98. ..........

:spray:

[readmoreoften]

154. Isn't a "Jew" lawyer just an extreme version of an atheist lawyer?

:sarcasm:

After all, the "Jews" killed our Lord Jesus, right? That would make them the most extreme atheists of all time.

:crazy:

[jazzjunkysue]

147. Direct violation of the establishment clause.

You can have a prayer club after school but it has to be run by students. And, the principal cannot refuse any group that wants one. All religions must be treated equally. But you can't pass out Bibles during the regular school day, or after school to students who have not opted into such a group. And no adult can use their authority or positional influence within the school to promote any kind of religion.

You can study different religions as long as it is in an historic sense, and the idea of believing is not pushed.

Storm the board of ed. You can make a lot of money suing them if they don't undo the damage.

[PVnRT]

162. Oh, snap!

But this is the state that gave us Bush. Since when do they care about the federal constitution?

[marshall]

195. it would depend on the message conveyed when the Bible is distributed

In the case cited by the ACLU it appears there was some kind of proselytizing going on. It wouldn't be hard to remove that message and give out the Bible as a historcal or literary relic. It's not the book itself, it's cramming a religious message down children's throats that the ACLU objects to.

[hootinholler]

63. Uh, I'm pretty sure, it just went to court recently and was approved.

I forget where, I'll try to get you a reference tonight. I remeber thinking how fucked up the decision was when I heard about it.

-Hoot

[Robbien]

24. Seems you'd not even care if they hand out kiddie porn

It doesn't amaze you that people get upset over what their children are exposed to in their public schools. It appears you just want to poke a stick at people and be contrary.

[Crunchy Frog]

28. Lots of violence and filth in the Bible.

Parents have a right not to have filthy literature passed out to their kids.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

40. No, I get bent out of shape when there is no adherence to separation of church and state.

I also get bent out of shape with some Christians trying to shove their dogma. I am not a Christian and never was a Christian and grew up when there was prayer in school, and it sucked big time.

[VOX]

41. With each incremental step like this, the line between church & state gets increasingly blurred...

Until one day all citizens wake up to the living nightmare of a full-blown theocracy. The founding fathers are already twirling in their graves, and this final blow would increase their RPM to the degree that they'd drill all the way to China -- in which case their remains would be sold back to us as toxic material in toothpaste and pet food.

God, what a world.

[spoony]

50. Slippery slope hysteria

Was the country a theocracy forty and fifty years ago, when one set of my grandparents here went to public schools that began their day with prayers? You think that was uncommon? How about in the 18th century? You really think the FF would freak out over a Bible in a school?

People, people. The sensitivity over anything religious near schools is quite RECENT and reflects anything BUT a slide toward theocracy.

[Richard Steele]

61. Bullshit, complete and utter.

[spoony]

77. What part? Do you deny that schools had more religion in them

in decades past?

[Richard Steele]

91. Do you deny that this nation had more racial & religious discrimination then?

Forgive me if I don't get misty-eyed over an era when
blacks couldn't eat at white restaurants, and jews weren't
allowed on the golf courses.

Just spare us that "good old days" nonsense, why don't ya.

[spoony]

99. Wow, the point must not have even appeared on your radar

That being: schools were more religious decades ago. If that didn't create a theocracy, then the bellyaching now about this being a step toward theocracy is baseless. That's the ONLY point. Not about "good old days" or whatever other tripe you want to project onto my words.

[Richard Steele]

155. Didn't see your point on radar, but I did catch its cover spread in "Phrenology Digest".

Six of one, a half dozen of "Oh brother".

[ismnotwasm]

74. Back when women couldn't vote?

Or were discouraged from higher education? Or when Native Americans were punished for cultural practices and punished for speaking their own language? Or was it when Slavery was legal? All based on biblical interpretations. It may not have been uncommon but it sure was fucked up

[spoony]

79. Nice dodging, but the question is: was it a theocracy then?

If not, then it sure as hell isn't headed toward theocracy now. You can worm about all you like bringing up shit you think you can peg on religion, but the fact of the matter is that all of this silly hand-wringing in this thread would have literally been laughed at back then. School is FAR more secular now, but you are all still complaining and saying it's nearly a 'theocracy.' It's simply ridiculous.

[Chulanowa]

156. Yes, it was

Non-christians were discriminated against and had no chance of holding office, minority groups suffered from biblical interpretations being thrust upon them, law was pulled from the bible and forced on the population at large regardless of beleif, even non-protestant Christians such as Catholics and Orthodox suffered at the hands of Christian terrorists in the Klan, who need I point out, were very often one and the same with hte governments in those areas?

Was it a theocracy? In all respects except for name, yes. And to a degree, it still is. Try running for office as a nonchristian. Or even as a Christian of a less mainstream denomination. See what happens.

[Solon]

103. So you want to return to a time when riots occured between Protestants and Catholics over...

whose prayers are allowed in Public School?

[spoony]

108. Read my reply (99) to your similarly impaired mate.

As you have totally missed the point.

[Solon]

112. Technically the country, more through custom than law, though that happened too, was theocratic...

This was a time of active discrimination against non-Christians and Non-Protestants in most of the country. Part of that manifested in public schools who lead in Protestant prayers. The fact is that our "hysteria" is well founded, and no it wasn't atheists, at first, who took "God out of classrooms" it was, mostly, Jehovah's Witnesses and Catholics. So blame them for anti-religious hysteria, they started it.

[tblue37]

159. I was forced to stand up in front of my homeroom class in 10th grade

(1965) and suffer being berated by my very religious homeroom teacher because he didn't see me in church on Easter. My family was in pretty bad financial shape, so I worked in a dress factory 20 hours a week, at an airport restaurant 10 hours a day on weekends (including 5 hours on Friday nights), and also worked at an illegal factory machine we had set up in our house so my mother and I could sew lots at home, too. I often worked straight through the night on our machine before going to school in the morning.

I was extremely energetic, so I handled it, and unusually smart, so it didn't affect my straight-A average, but it was quite tiring. At any rate, my dad had been laid off from his job (in Avoca, near Scranton, PA), and was out of work for 8 months. My family included 8 people--Mom, Dad, and 6 kids. Though I wasn't the oldest (4th of 6), I was the only one who could handle that sort of workload without having my grades wrecked by it (also, I was sort of the low person on the totem pole in the family, so using me that way wasn't out of the question for them).

At any rate, this teacher was well aware of my family's situation--and of my (dare I say it?) heroic efforts to help support my family and put my oldest sister through nursing school. Yet he, in his F***ing "Christian" righteousness, felt himself to be quite justified in berating an exhausted 15-year-old child in front of her whole class for not attending church on Easter Sunday because she was working her skinny little butt off supporting her family.

Do NOT tell me that it doesn't matter if we let Christianity (or any dominant religion) sneak its way back into our schools.

BTW, are you aware that the fastest growing religions in the world are Mormonism and Islam? Right now Protestant Christianity is the dominant religion in the US, but that won't last, what with growth rates among those two churches, through conversion and through higher birthrates among believers. Also, Protestant Christians who want to see Christianity shoved down every little kid's throat might feel less sanguine about having the Catholic version of Christianity promoted in public schools, and of course Catholics in America also have a higher birthrate than Protestants do--and most Mexican and Latin American immigrants are Catholic.

The idiots who figure that since they are members of the dominant religion, it is fine to have it foisted on schoolchildren are not realizing that the separation of church and state is also designed to protect their damned religion.

Also, are you not aware of the stories about religious teachers who abuse kids, to “save them,” even today—like that nutcase who burned crosses into his students’ arms?

BTW, that jerk of a teacher helped to turn me against religion altogether.

[Dorian Gray]

165. How the heck would your teacher

know whether or not you attended any service at any church in all the town/region? That's really fucked up.

Christ, where I was from, there were about 45 houses of worship in a 15 mile radius. My teachers would never know what religion I was, let alone when and where I went to church. (Which, in high school, I didn't.)

[tblue37]

185. We lived in the same small town. He was suspicious because I never showed up in

his church, although my family actually attended church (when we did) in Pittston, 3 miles away. But he started off by asking me what I did that weekend. He quizzed me about what I did Friday (worked at the factory, then at the airport); what I did Saturday (worked a 10-hour shift at the airport, sewed at home, though I couldn't say that, since it was illegal; same on Sunday.

Then, after making me say what I had done all weekend, he turned to the rest of the class and said, "Did you notice that at no point during her Easter weekend did she bother to attend church? I think she must be an atheist."

My classmates were all from very religious ethnic families, so I caught some crap for that, I assure you.

But as my homeroom teacher, he had so much power over me that refusing to answer his questions about what I did that weekend was not even an option. Teachers are in such a powerful position that they must not abuse their authority to force their religion down children's throats. I teach college. I am very sensitive to the power that comes with being a teacher, even in this day and age, when students are taught to disrespect teachers and the entire society has made it difficult for us to exercise appropriate authority in our classrooms. But if so many tachers had not abused their authority in the past, we might not have swung so far in the opposite direction today.

[Dorian Gray]

188. He sounds like a total

asshole. I'm sorry that you were singled out like that in the classroom. He had no business doing that to you, about ANYWAY that you spent your time. And especially not about your religious beliefs.

[Dorian Gray]

189. He sounds like a total

asshole. I'm sorry that you were singled out like that in the classroom. He had no business doing that to you, about ANYWAY that you spent your time. And especially not about your religious beliefs.

[OwnedByFerrets]

173. Thank you for your post.....

very moving.:)

[spanone]

174. you are so wrong my friend. so wrong.

[DeSwiss]

118. Why do you hate the Constitution??? n/t

[orleans]

142. oh please. give me a break.

you let your kids listen to rush limbaugh on the radio?

you seem terribly laid back about indoctrination--guess it doesn't bother some people

on edit:
i guess you won't be giving me a break any longer, eh?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=214813

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

65. 'Atheists are so intolerant.' bwahahaha, you poor thing. nt

[Richard Steele]

66. You're on the wrong board with that "Atheists are so intolerant" crap. nm

[spoony]

80. Or maybe the poster wandered into R/T

and saw all the examples first hand.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

88. I thought being intolerant of LAWBREAKING was a GOOD thing? -nt

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

94. Pssssst....not everyone who knows that this is Unconstitutional and also knows that there

is no place in PUBLIC SCHOOLS for the distribution of bibles, is an atheist.

[Echo In Light]

160. Thanks for illustrating that point

[Ichingcarpenter]

9. Its illegal and against the law, but you don't care about that do you?

http://www.aclu-em.org/pressroom/2008pressreleases/010808acluapplaudsdecision.htm

[OmahaBlueDog]

15. There are higher priorities on that very long list

Nobody's saying your kid has to read them or even keep them. If they go to an art museum are you going to complain if they look ar a renaissance painting of saints?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

31. NO! Giving them out in a public school is illegal, period. It seems you have a

problem with the separation of church and state.

[OmahaBlueDog]

51. I think you mean I have "A" problem with the separation of C & S

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Did congress mandate that the Bibles be distributed or pay for their printing? Were non-Christians were forced to engage in worship? If so, you have a good case for establishment. Otherwise, I don't see anything illegal or unconstitutional here. There are dozens of justifications -- artistic understanding, literary understanding, American heritage, etc. that they can use to justify this. What I do see (as I said in another post in this thread) is bait for us to swallow and piss off fundies, yet again.

My hopes are a) that these are unabridged KJVs and that b) if they are unabridged, all the kids go straight to (as Mark Twain put it) the parts that incite masturbation.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

55. Please stop the bullshit with baiting by the fundies. The fundies aren't baiting, they want

"conversions". It gives them a better chance for them to get into heaven.

See post #44. Interesting reading.

[OmahaBlueDog]

76. 44 is interesting reading, but the SCOTUS has changed since '02

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

81. If/Until SCOTUS addresses this, allowing bibles to be distributed in Public Schools

remains Unconstitutional.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

58. You don't seem to have a problem with policing grammar. Correction made.

[Ghost in the Machine]

132. Well, since you like to correct others:

"Did congress mandate that the Bibles be distributed or pay for their printing? Were non-Christians were forced to engage in worship?..."

Too bad it's too late for you to correct it, though...

Just sayin'....

:evilgrin:

[OmahaBlueDog]

134. DAMN! Now I have to get into the fish tank and sing.

(It's a Monty Python thing)

Thank you for pointing that out.

[Ghost in the Machine]

146. LOL! Will you sell tickets?

I was just feeling snarky earlier... I'm all better now...

:hi:

[QueenOfCalifornia]

42. How is that relatable?

Is a religious painting which hangs on the wall of a museum any way like a bunch of religious freaks pushing their dogma on kids at school? Do the people here who support this shit not see how this can and will get out of hand? Of course no one HAS to keep the book - That is NOT the important point being made by the OP. Her children should not be proselytized to at a public school. If she wants her children exposed to magical, delusional thinking she would put them in a private Christian school.

[OmahaBlueDog]

69. Handing out a book isn't proselytizing

No one said they had to read it or believe it. It's a book -- read by millions and is the basis for much of Western art & literature. Is the ACLU going to say kids shouldn't go to museums where religous art is displayed -- after all, not everyone wants their kids to see an image of Jesus on the cross with a weeping Mary?

So I say take the book -- and start asking extensive questions about the Song of Solomon, or the verses about Onan, or where the people in the Land of Nod came from. Let the kids read it and think for themselves.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

89. So...

(edit to discover new ways to fix typos)
Do you argue so as to miss the whole point of the original post? I would be really pissed off if my children were given any religious CRAP at SCHOOL. HERE IS A REAL LIFE EXAMPLE:
My kids were handed Bibles at the fair - I was not pissed off because it was at the FAIR. Get it? I see a vast difference between going to a forum where it is legal and not against the Constitution and having a person working in a booth hand my kids a Bible - Than it is to send them off to school and have someone show up and proselytize. I see a massive difference between taking my children to an art museum and having them exposed to art hanging on a wall.

BTW - handing out Bibles is by definition proselytizing:
proselytize


Main Entry:
pros·e·ly·tize


Function:
verb
Inflected Form(s):
pros·e·ly·tized; pros·e·ly·tiz·ing
Date:
1679
intransitive verb
1 : to induce someone to convert to one's faith
2 : to recruit someone to join one's party, institution, or cause
transitive verb
: to recruit or convert especially to a new faith, institution, or cause

[OmahaBlueDog]

92. I understand the point -- I just don't agree that it is as big a deal as you do

1 : to induce someone to convert to one's faith
2 : to recruit someone to join one's party, institution, or cause:transitive verb: to recruit or convert especially to a new faith, institution, or cause

I don't think handing them the book is inducement or recruitment. We just aren't going to agree on that point. I think making someone attend bible study is proselytizing based on the above definition -- but not handing out the book. It's like saying I'm forcing you to travel by handing you a road atlas.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

164. Are you hard of hearing?

or trying to be dense?????

WTF do you think they are handing them books for? To use as paper weights? It is one of many means of inducing someone to join the gang.

If someone handed my kid a ROAD ATLAS at school I wouldn't give a rats ass because it is in no way FORCING them to do anything. But it is a way to induce them to think of traveling.

Look - If my kids got a RELIGIOUS book from a person handing them out on our block I would not get all crazy over it - The reason is, it is not unconstitutional.

But good try OBD. I like the road atlas thingee but it is still not the same.

[Diclotican]

111. OmahaBlueDog

OmahaBlueDog

Then, can my Church, who many in Texas and other places believe to worship the devil, or at least be totally in the wrong, give free copies of The book of Mormons.. To ALL member of a school. And not be teased or been treated bad?

No I guess not... That would be to much to swallow for many "Christians" I guess. I don't believe that the Holy Bible should be given away at school. Not in US, not in Norway.. And If it so important to learn about what is been told in the Bible, then the parents of the kids should LEARN their children about the Bible from a young age them self.. Not let the School do that.

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[OmahaBlueDog]

135. Diclotican

There is no need to prevent the distribution of religous works in school, and many schools offer classes such as "World Religon" and "Comparative Religon". One needs religous books (or excerpts from these works) to teach these courses. A basic understanding of the Old Testament/Torah and the New Testament is useful to any discussion of Western Civilization, Art, Literature, and Government. A discussion of the Book of Mormon informs the discussion of the movement of the Mormons from Missouri through Nebraska on the so-called "Mormon Trail" to the settlement of Utah, so at that level, why should there be any objection to it being read or discussed. Congressman Ellison took his oath of office on a Quoran owned by Thomas Jefferson and kept in the Library of Congress; again, why is this work not worthy of discussion and review by students.

Schools should not be in the business of endorsing any particular faith (or lack of faith) and no one should be degraded or discriminated against because of their faith. That said, I feel the "Establishment clause" in the 1st Amendment has been too narrowly interpreted. The founders of this nation didn't want a "Church of the US" to be established, or for the nation to become Catholic. Beyond that, what they intended is open to debate. I don't believe they ever intended for schools and public squares to be scrubbed clean of religon. I don't think they were offended by nativity scenes or prayers before whatever sports they played at schools in 1789.

[Dorian Gray]

166. I suspect that Omahbluedog

wouldn't give a shit if your religion DID do that.

Personally, i think that everyone in this country should read the Bible, The Quaran, the Torah, The Tao Te Ching, and every other major religious text. I think that it's important for foundational knowledge. Essential, actually.

I think that we do our students a disservice by shielding them from all these texts under the auspices of protecting them from prostheylyzation.

But, i am talking about reading these texts in a literary/historical/sociological aspect, not as religious indoctrination. I don't know why these books were handed out in this circumstance, and I'm sure the intention was to encourage people to read and embrace Christianity. I just wish that English classes would encourage the reading of certain passages of these texts in context with other literature that addresses them. (Paradise Lost/Genesis.) Or that Humanities was taught to everyone Senior Year in high school so that some of these texts could be learned in addition to Architecture, Classical Music, Art, and the rest. Reading Islamic Texts and comparing it to Arabic/Middle Eastern arts would be fascinating for me at 17 years old. Chinese art and poetry with Buddhist/Taoist texts to provide context? So amazing. Biblical passages with Michelangelo paintings and passages from The Divine Comedy?

[jazzjunkysue]

148. "Tomorrow's assignment: The Book Of Wiccan. "

"I'm the teacher in this class, and if you want an A, you'll write a 2 page essay on the virtues of pagan worship and spells. Extra credit to anyone who attempts the fertility exercises at home."

Yeah. Right. It's just a book. Doesn't really matter. Let the schools preach any religion to my kid. Ok with me.

[OmahaBlueDog]

151. Bibles and condoms seem to have the same thing in common here

Everyone gets really offended if they're handed out in schools, in spite of the fact that they are universally available to people of all ages for very little money.

[haymakeragain]

199. Handing out condoms at school is legal, handing out bibles is not.

Funny how it is the same people breaking the law with regard to the bible giveaway that want to break it again by stopping the condom giveaway.

[barbtries]

157. it is proselytizing n/t

[AZ Criminal JD]

29. The decision you cited is in the 8th circuit.

Texas is in the 5th circuit and 8th circuit decisions don't apply there. Not illegal or against the law.

[Ichingcarpenter]

44. The 5th circuit and the Supreme court have already ruled on this.

http://www.aclu.org/religion/gen/16037res20020311.html

[AZ Criminal JD]

127. Not true. The bulletin you link to talks about a 7th circuit decision

And there has not been a Supreme Court decision on the subject.

[spoony]

32. Illegal AND against the law

It must be really serious to be both.

[Parche]

bible

but there they are not supposed to be giving out ANY religious material.......period

I would file a grievance, or somethiing against that........

The bible should be burned anyway.......:woohoo: :hi:

[lifesbeautifulmagic]

13. I worry about anyone who

constantly tells us not to fight back.

[enki23]

20. it would also be illegal for public teachers to be recruiting for gangs and distributing drugs

do let us all know when those things happen, so we can all be as outraged as you want us to be.

[Stinky The Clown]

21. Mixing religion in government is okay with you?

Public schools are, in fact, 'government'.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

27. Last time I looked, it was Unconstitutional..illegal. And who says we can't multi task and be

concerned about drugs and gangs too?

It is with thoughts like yours, which will be the total downfall of our country.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spoony]

52. Please cite where in the Constitution it says anything about

people voluntarily taking Bibles from a group in a public school.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

59. The First Amendment.

Congress has passed laws requiring children to go to school, proselytizing in schools is a clear violation of the 1st amendment.

[spoony]

67. Congress is not involved in handing out Bibles in the school.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. No, they're involved in forcing children to attend schools.

Duh.

If they were handing out Bibles at the 7-11 this wouldn't be an issue.

[spoony]

75. And? The First deals with their actions. What is handed out

has nothing to do with them. It isn't a matter of curriculum, nor anything else they oversee. Unless it's the State's agents, that is, teachers engaged in acts that could violate the establishment clause, then there's NOTHING unConstitutional about this.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

96. Read post #44.

[spoony]

100. Not really talking about court cases

I'm talking about what is literally in the Constitution. The authors were so vague about so many issues it has created this atmosphere. But taking it for what it is, calling this specific incident unConstitutional does not follow from the text.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

113. What problem do you have with the separation of church and state? Separation

means separate.


As to the authors of the Constitution. They were a mixed bag. Most were of different Christian denominations and 3 were Deists. One of the Deists was Benjamin Franklin.
Deists are not Christians. Although Thomas Jefferson didn't author the Constitution, he was a Deist also.

Thomas Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."


Hmmmmm...no mention of a Christian God, but the Laws of Nature and Nature's God.
(Oh My Goddess! This almost sounds Pagan!)

Now considering that there were Christians and non-Christians framing the Constitution, and remember that many of the Christian denominations came to America to seek religious freedom, do you honestly think, that they would want someone of one denomination proselytizing another denomination's teachings in a STATE school? Handing out bibles is proselytizing.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

53. I say put gangs and drugs back in the schools.

It's curtailing my freedom, as a lover of gangs and drugs, to keep them banned in schools.

[jazzjunkysue]

149. This is exactly what the ignore list is for. Gonna miss you. Bye!

[Lorien]

177. Lol! You just put "ignored" on ignore!

;-)

[jazzjunkysue]

191. Too funny. I don't put HRC supposrters on ignore, just morons like this one.

They're only online for a fight. They'll move on to any other board if this one doesn't incite enough arguing for them.

[Lorien]

196. Well, since I'm a fan of neither candidate, I'm sure that they

ended up on my list for much the same reason. ;-)

[Hell Hath No Fury]

4. I would set up a Koran...

distribution myself and see how that flies -- if there was any anttempt to stop me then I would file religious descrimination lawsuit. :)

[AZ Criminal JD]

35. So go for it.

Don't just talk about it.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

56. Being from California I am not sure...

I could take action where I would have legal standing -- that's the tricky part.

[AlCzervik]

6. are they going to give out the Qu'ran and Torah's as well or just bibles?

maybe a little something for every religion?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

45. Could you imagine if they started to distribute The Book Of Shadows? They might get some

of those parents off of their collective asses.

[OmahaBlueDog]

136. Isn't the Torah mostly what Christians call the Old Testament?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

182. The Torah is only the first five books of the Old Testament, written down

by Moses, taking dictation from "God".

[Ilsa]

8. Nevermind. everyone else said it. Do you want us to email them also? nt

[kestrel91316]

10. Here's the cure: Demand that they also distribute copies of

The Satanic Bible, and say you'll get the ACLU involved and sue their asses to kingdom come if they don't . And then next the Koran. And then the Book of Mormon.

[Ichingcarpenter]

ACLU has won this case many times

its illegal and here is the link
http://www.aclu-em.org/pressroom/2008pressreleases/010808acluapplaudsdecision.htm

[OmahaBlueDog]

102. * They did not win with the current court

[lpbk2713]

11. So now will they allow Atheists to visit the school and speak their views?

I'm not holding my breath on that one. But the point is, if they allow one faction to promote their beliefs, then they should allow any others to do the same.

[OmahaBlueDog]

38. They do allow the views of Atheists -- just read the science or sex-ed texts

OK, I am kidding -- but seriously, that's how many would respond to your statement.

[Fumesucker]

64. Any book which does not specifically mention that God exists..

Is of course atheist..

[OmahaBlueDog]

72. I believe the technical answer is...

"any book that does not acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour, the Light and the Resurrection, is evil, and should be burned."

[no_hypocrisy]

12. Contact Freedrom From Religion Foundation for legal help if they don't stop.

http://www.ffrf.org/contact/

[OmahaBlueDog]

23. You do realize we're being baited, yes??

1. ACLU shows up -- does their little thing
2. Righties and fundies get talking points -- Dems love ACLU, ACLU against Bible, therefore Dems hate Christians
3. McSame appears on righty talkshows indicating he'll defend the Bible. Evangelicals awake from their slumber and vow their love.
4. "Do you think Barack Hussein Obama will defend the Bible" e-mails fly around

Oh, Hell -- let's just swallow the bait again.

It's be better if Obama would show up at the school, hand a few Bibles out, and talk about his deep faith and love of God. That would fluster the righties totally.

[Fumesucker]

25. Far better to just ignore lawbreaking..

Madame Pelosi would be so proud.

[OmahaBlueDog]

33. There are ways to respond that don't involve walking into the trap

that's all I'm saying.

...and I do admit this is way down on my lawbreaking meter.

[Fumesucker]

60. Yes, we need to lock up all the dopers

For decades and decades..

[OmahaBlueDog]

73. After the murderers and rapists, the next groups I'd like to see suffer would be

..identity thieves and all those who worked for Enron who knew what was going on. Then the Bushes and Katrina profiteers.

[FiveGoodMen]

62. Yes, we should always abandon our principles when the other side doesn't like them!

Someone tries to deny rights to Americans of Middle Eastern descent (let's just say)...

1. ACLU shows up -- does their little :grr: thing
2. Righties and fundies get talking points -- Dems love terrorists
3. McSame vows to bomb them all (and sings about it)
4. Someone from Iraq/Iran/whatever does something bad and everyone says, "See? We should have just obliterated them!"

It's better if Obama would show up at the school and proclaim death to all Muslims.

Keep your powder dry, asshole.

[OmahaBlueDog]

82. OK, Let's just say

Someone tries to deny rights to Americans of Middle Eastern descent (let's just say)...

1. ACLU shows up -- does their little :silly: thing
2. Righties and fundies get talking points -- Dems love terrorists
3. McSame vows to bomb them all. (and sings about it)
4. E-mails fly about that Barack Hussein Obama is weak on terrorism

It's better if Obama would show up at the school, hand out a few Bibles, talk about his deep faith and love of God, and vows not to sing political messages to the tune of Barbara Ann.

You keep your powder dry as well, and please wash out your dirty mouth before you go kissing anyone.

[Fumesucker]

90. The way to counter law breaking

Is with yet more law breaking?

I don't get that at all..

[OmahaBlueDog]

101. As I said earlier, I don't think any laws were broken here...

and I think the curreent SCOTUS would agree (which isn't necessarily a good thing)

[RedCappedBandit]

117. If bibles weren't shoved down the throats of impressionable elementary school children..

to begin with, maybe we wouldn't have hordes of brainwashed idiots listening to and voting for the idiots of the republican party simply because they claim to be christian.

[OmahaBlueDog]

138. There are people of faith on both sides of the aisle

Most liberal ideology draws roots from the teachings of Jesus, and people of faith have been deeply involved in progressive causes such as ending slavery, fighting poverty, and ending discrimination. The "Rev." in front of the names of Martin Luther King, Al Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson isn't there for window dressing. They are ordained ministers and men of God.

Perhaps a better understanding of what Jesus actually preached (love, peace, forgiveness, anti-materialism) might help young people see the things we fight for.

[RedCappedBandit]

143. I agree, but..

there is more to the bible than what "jesus" supposedly preached.

I agree with you though - the morality behind the common notion of christianity should be realized as liberal ideology, not that of neo-con fascists.

[Homer Wells]

140. Since it seems obvious that the Neo-Con Fundies

have never read (and understood)what the New Testament (The Christian portion of the Bible) truly espouses, it wonders me what passing out these books to the children is supposed to accomplish.

Perhaps if these kids truly READ what the Bible says about loving your neighbor, helping those in need, and being a Good Person, they would tell these Christian(?) elders to take a a flying leap.

O8)

[RedCappedBandit]

144. there is more to the bible than loving thy neighbor

you're right though.. if "christians" were actually christian, i don't think this country would be so threatened by the neo-con fascists.

[Ian David]

14. Contact Americans United

Americans United for Separation of Church and State
518 C Street NE, Washington, DC 20002
[phone] fax [phone]
[e-mail]
http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=aboutau

[Zynx]

16. In what context? Bibles can be useful for literary allusions since Biblical allusions permeate

literature as well as rhetoric in the West.

[WildEyedLiberal]

26. Please don't inject logic into a good old fashioned religious hatefest

FTR: IF a religous organization has been invited to the school to hand out Bibles for the express purpose of proselytizing or promoting the "rightness" of Christianity, then YES, that is illegal.

If, however, a literature class is teaching the Bible AS LITERATURE, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with this picture.

There is not enough information in the OP to determine what is actually going on, so I'll save my outrage.

[Fumesucker]

36. Plano, Texas..

Hardly the sort of place where Bibles would be handed out strictly for study as literature..

Like there isn't enough literature out there to study in public schools that is not theologically loaded.. :sarcasm:

[dkofos]

17. I was wondering what all those books were doing in the gutter!!

I couldn't see the title as I was speeding thru the school zone.

Now I know.

[Romulox]

18. They were probably being handed out on public property ADJACENT to the school

I've seen this before. Nothing illegal about it.

[Indenturedebtor]

68. No issue at all with handing them out adjacent to the school

But I agree that they shouldn't be passed out in school. The purpose can only be proselytizing... you're giving bibles to kids who you assume don't have bibles.

Don't take my tax dollars to pay for your religion. Don't force your religion on my child. Don't make my child feel like an outsider because he/she doesn't follow your religion. It's like peer pressuring a young kid with drugs.

And Science is not Atheistic in principle. It simply doesn't give two shits about invisible people. Science is concerned with reality, not who has the shiniest invisible friends.

[AlphaCentauri]

125. it would be funny to see people handing out marxist books adjacent to a school

not illegal but....

[Romulox]

171. I used to get MIM Notes handed to me on the campus of U of M ALL THE TIME!

http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/mn/

[AlphaCentauri]

176. That was not an elementary or middle school

[Romulox]

180. Fair point. I don't think the legality turns on the level of the school involved though. nt

[FiveGoodMen]

197. I'm pretty sure it does. K-12 is mandated education. College isn't.

[Subdivisions]

22. I'll keep on the alert for similar action in Cleburne ISD. Could

they be trying to implement and theocratic-style fascist state?

Woudn't put nothing past them.

[Serenades]

34. I remember when

I remember when I was in middle school/high school I remember people handing out Bibles every so often. Didn't really bother me all that much. I wish there would have been people passing out Books of Mormon and the Koran so I could have seen the reaction of citizens and so I can read about their beliefs. I was originally from a place called Bryan, TX. Now I live in the big DDDDDDD!!!!!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. As Mark Twain said:

"The bible is a book with some beautiful poetry, a bloodstained history, a wealth of obscenity, and upwards of 10,000 lies."

[GoesTo11]

47. Big deal. They used to distribute Spaghetti in my school

[Stinky The Clown]

54. ............... which equates to bibles ............. how, exactly?

:shrug:

[GoesTo11]

71. Become enlightened

http://www.venganza.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

[Runcible Spoon]

78. I'm fairly certain the whole Flying Spaghetti Monster farce was lost on you.

sad, very sad.

[zorahopkins]

57. There Is NOTHING HOLY....

There is nothing holy about that shit.

[anselmo]

83. I hope that students allowed to decline the bibles

If that's not the case, then this is unconstitutional.

[Runcible Spoon]

84. to ANYONE thinking this is "not a big deal"

parents enroll their children in good faith to become indoctrinated, that's right, indoctrinated into certain belief systems. Children are point blank told to believe what is presented with them, and at such young ages they lack the intellectual precocity to distinguish between what is "fact" and what is someone trying to teach them a religion which may or may not be approved by their parents. It's bad enough our schools do little more than follow NCLB's BS and are forced to teach non-stimulating cookie cutter crap. The schools are impeded enough in terms of teaching children HOW to think; they can only grapple with teaching the kids WHAT to think. Parents are struggling hard enough to raise children to be more than little consumers and worker bees, because that is exactly what public school curriculum under the Bush Administration is. Goddess bless those teachers who go above and beyond and manage to actually teach the children real life skills.

So you tell me...do you really want to have a complicated conversation with a 11 year old about how sometimes the schools don't teach things that are "true" (assuming the parents are not of that particular denomination)? It's one thing to instill a sense of questioning the authority of institutional knowledge, but to expect a middle schooler to have to learn cold hard truths about his teacher that early will undoubtedly cause the child to have more problems in the school environment. All of this is assuming that the parents are AWARE and even themselves intellectually EQUIPPED to communicate this to their children.

Best to just AVOID the indoctrination of children into religion in schools and teach them critical thinking in other, more innocent ways until they are old enough to decide for themselves.

[spoony]

104. I'd agree if they were actually being TAUGHT a theology

by school authorities, that is to say government authorities, but as it is, the students are simply being exposed by what I presume is an outside group like the Gideons.

[jazzjunkysue]

192. Can I hear an "Amen!?" Exactly the point. If we have prayer in school,

the real question is, "Who chooses the prayer?"

I'd choose something from 2nd century China, myself. So, the point isn't that we're praying, but that we're making specific choices for children that we have no right to be making.

[dixiegrrrrl]

85. I got no problem with handking bibles in Schools ...IF

they also hand out "The Devil's Dictionary" by Ambrose Bierce
or
"Letters from the Earth" by Mark Twain

and uh, oh, yeah..

Penthouse...they got good columns in that magazine.

or the Bill of Rights.
In English

[HughBeaumont]

87. THIS is the only Bible that should be handed out in schools:

:rofl:

[ileus]

129. X days ah comin' and the pinks are a bummin'....JR's the best

[Cleita]

97. Does it include the Old Testament?

I went to Catholic school and we weren't allowed to read the Old Testament when I was about that age. It was thought there was too much sex, adultery, and incest for our little minds to handle. I wonder if any of those people have actually ever read the Bible? Honestly, it isn't for kids.

[OmahaBlueDog]

106. My point exactly

Read Mark Twain's letters from the earth on why Protestant boys aren't allowed to read certain parts of the Bible

[AlphaCentauri]

126. and violence, crimes, genocides, war and greed

[notadmblnd]

105. they were handing them out on the sidewalk in front of my son HS yesterday

he came home and told me that he and a group of his friends went and asked for one. He then went on to tell me that after he received it, he hollered out "it burns! it burns!" The way he told it to me I laughed so hard I almost peed my pants.

[moc]

107. UPDATE: As it turns out, it's not illegal.

After posting, I heard back from the vice principal, who gave me the phone number for the district's communications office. I spoke with the assistant to the director, and she was very pleasant, even apologetic, in explaining district policy.

Apparently, the district was sued for not allowing distribution of religious materials and the case went to the Supreme Court (I'm not sure if she meant state or federal Supreme Court). They have to allow distribution of all materials as long as it doesn't include anything about drugs or violence. The conditions of distribution of any information (religious or not) is that they must be placed on an information that students can browse at their choice. The materials cannot be handed out directly to students.

As I said, the lady who explained it to me was apologetic. She agreed with me that parents who don't see why someone would be offended by bibles laying on a table would likely feel differently if it was a Koran instead.

So there you have it. :shrug: I must say, I was proud of my 11yo daughter at her righteous indignation about the whole situation. Directly after my phone call to the district office, I had to take her to volleyball practice, and she ranted and raved the whole way. I'm proud that she's sensitive enough to the feelings of her non-Christian classmates to be angered by them having their feelings hurt.

[Solon]

109. Sounds like the excuse is BS, personally...

I don't even see how a public school is obligated to let any religious group into the school to distribute any materials, religious or otherwise. The only exception is if they allow some groups, but don't allow others because of religion, its either all or none, not anything in between. The school would be well within its powers to prevent the distribution of any material, religious or otherwise, by outside groups on school grounds as long as they are consistent.

ON EDIT: I also find it puzzling that they are handing out the Bible, which is quite violent, why is there an exception for that book, and not other violent material?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

114. I suggest that you still call the ACLU. I am sure the ACLU would love to hear from you on this.

[NuttyFluffers]

115. "have to allow distribution... as long as it doesn't include anything about drugs or violence"?

now that's definitely not the bible i read growing up.

anyway, what's the context of this? is this a little table of old ladies sitting there with literature on display? and if so, why is soliciting and loitering as such allowed on a school campus? rather odd.

why don't people just teach religion like they do in colleges? treat it as literature, philosophy, theology, cultural studies, etc -- just don't treat it as "The Unadulterated, Inescapable Truth." it's hard to understand a people and their motivations if you do not understand the ideas that shape their thinking. oh whatever, that's expecting too much sensible conversation for here, let alone america...

[Fumesucker]

120. If the Bibles being distributed have the Old Testament..

There is plenty of violence.. And sex too..

Cain slew Abel.

The Israelites slew the Canaanites just to steal their land, that sweet land of milk and honey.

Wait, I've heard about something like that more recently..

Don't tell me, it'll come to me.

[Lars39]

124. I would not take her word for it being legal.

Federal judges in state after state have ruled that it is unconstitutional to hand out Bibles in public schools.

http://www.aclu.org/religion/schools/16146leg19950412.html

[AlphaCentauri]

128. Ask her that you would like to distribute The Communist Manifesto

just to test their fairness

[kath]

131. I think she's BS'ing you -- previous cases have ruled that they CANNOT be handed out on school

grounds, but can be distributed on public property near the school, such as sidewalks near the school.

Here's a case that was decided just yesterday (federal district court - apparently will be appealed to Fed Appeals court):
excerpt-

"The original suit alleges that on May 9, students were allowed to leave class to pick up Bibles from Gideons International representatives in front of the Principal’s Office, but were given the option to stay behind if they did not want one.
Barbier noted Principal Andre Pellerin notified fifth-grade teachers in an e-mail about the Gideons but told them to stress to students “they DO NOT have to get a (B)ible.”

Still, Barbier found the child was pressured to take a Bible, noting the special care courts have recognized schools must take with impressionable elementary schoolchildren.

“Jane Roe states that she accepted the Bible because if she did not, her classmates would have ‘picked on’ her. She feared they would call her ‘devil worshipper,’ and that ‘she don’t believe in God,’ and that she is a ‘Goth,’ ” Barbier wrote.

In the board’s motion for summary judgment, attorneys argued school officials did not encourage students to take Bibles but “merely allowed an organization onto a school campus for the purpose of making literature available to students.”

The ACLU suit sought a permanent injunction to halt the practice and nominal damages, records show, but Barbier did not specifically grant the injunction.

Esman asserted it was granted, however.

“We asked for an injunction. The court granted us our motion; therefore, he gave us what we asked for,” she said."

http://www.2theadvocate.com/news/suburban/18033169.html?index=14&c=y

[Lorien]

179. I wonder how they would feel about "the God delusion" by Richard Dawkins?

or even Harry Potter?

[renate]

190. I *bet* you're proud of your daughter!

Good for her, for 1) understanding at such a young age that there's a real principle involved and that this was more than just handing out free books, and 2) thinking about the feelings of her non-Christian classmates. What a smart kid! :applause:

[L. Coyote]

116. Holy Holy Shit!! Wholly improper and probably illegal. But, who will be fired?

The person who complains, probably becomes the outcast.

[GetTheRightVote]

119. bibles should not appear in public facilities such as a school period

must have seperation of church and state always.

[Zynx]

152. Considering how frequently biblical verses appear, I think at least a copy should be on hand

somewhere.

[BigDaddy44]

163. I agree... AND

All currency should be banned from schools also. It does say "In God we Trust" on it after all. A clear violation. This contraband CANNOT be allowed in schools.

[krabigirl]

121. Bibles should only be distributed in school if it's to study it as literature. I'd be pissed!

[iamthebandfanman]

122. alot of schools do this

at graduations and accomplishment deals...

they are different colours representing the occasion as i understand it.

i got a red one when i graduated high school, so did everyone else in my class.

[Matariki]

123. Too bad our public education doesn't teach critical thinking -

then passing out Bibles, Torahs, Korans, The Upanishads, or even The Satanic Bible, wouldn't matter. Kids would know how to reason and make decisions for themselves. As it is, passing out bibles (and presumably not *other* religion's texts) is religious propaganda.

[LWolf]

130. Who distributed exactly what, where, and to whom?

On school property, or at the property line before or after school? To all, or to those who wanted one?

Who paid for them?

What was the stated purpose?

During school hours, or before and after, or during lunch?

I recall something like this a few years back, where some religious organization stood on the other side of the school property line handing out bibles after school. The idea being that, once kids were off school property, they were fair game.

Which is not actually the case, at least in the state I was working in then.

[JerseygirlCT]

133. Yoikes! nt

[seabeyond]

137. is it IN the school, or outside, on sidewalk. i am in texas and i have had

some old religious dude handing out little bibles to the kids. we are activists about so much. speak out all the time. kids told me and i asked if they took one. they said no. i asked if they were polite. they said yes. they were surprised i didnt flip out. i didnt cause the kids can merely say "no thank you" and it bothers no one. it is outside of the school. not hurting anyone. also had people offering the john smith (jehovah)? bible? and said thank you, took one in case i want to peruse it sometime. and would be really appreciative if someone handed out the koran, and i could peruse that some time

IN the school, another story

BUT if they did, i would see about getting another religion in there to offer something to show, if one, then ALL

[Greyhound]

139. I think it is Joe Smith and he is the charlatan that founded the Mormons.

I agree that some, or all, of the competing mythologies should demand equal access. Rastafarian's, Satanists, FSM, Scientologists, the whole gamut of delusions.

[kath]

141. Here's an interesting follow-up on the "backpack mail" controversy in VA a few years back --

the Jeezoid fundies insisted on the schools' allowing Xtian flyers to be sent home in kids' backpacks. Then, after a Pagan flyer and an atheist flyer got sent home, they were *incensed* (surprise, surprise) so then the district banned virtually all flyers:
http://www.readthehook.com/stories/2007/06/28/NEWS-fliersditched-B.rtf.aspx

I especially loved this comment (in the comments section at the end of the above piece):

"Back in the mid-1990s, the Waynesboro, Pennsylvania school board allowed the Gideons to come into the elementary schools and distribute New Testaments to 5th graders. I had warned them not to allow it, but they ignored me.

So, with the aid of the Freedom from Religion Foundation, I prepared an eye-catching little pamphlet--geared to elementary kids--entitled, "God Is Just Pretend", and I demanded that I have equal opportunity to distribute it.

In the meantime some members of the right-wing school board were voted out, and the new school board knew that they were caught between a rock and a hard place. They knew that if I really wanted to distribute the pamphlet they would have to allow it. But they gave me the choice. So I told them that I would rather they cut off ALL non-curricular-related handouts, and instead allow an open public forum annually at the Back To School nights in September. Local organizations whined and whined, but that September saw atheists next to Seventh Day Adventists next to Bible Thumpers next to the YMCA next to the (non-religiously-discriminatory) Girl Scouts next to the bigoted Boy Scouts. We all got along, except for a couple of loving Christians who harassed us and one who trashed our table right before our eyes.

Nothing fails like prayer, and nothing stops (and infuriates) know-it-all religionists in their tracks faster than atheists demanding and exercising their equal rights."


Methinks you should find (or write) some Pagan, atheist of Muslim pamphlets (or better yet, all three) to put on the school district's "distribution tables" -- perhaps the Freeedom From Religion foundation still has a "God is just pretend" pamphlet.

[Art_from_Ark]

145. Oh, fer crying out loud

They handed New Testaments out in my elementary school in 1969-- and 6 years later, most of the kids from my class were some of the biggest hedonists you ever saw. I doubt if any of them opened up their mini Bibles more than once or twice before consigning them to the sock drawer.

[truedelphi]

186. My sentiments also.

Having attended Catholic Grammar and HSs, I saw hedonism as a result -- in fact, some of the lord's meassage about Love and Light could have been more of an influence without it disturbing me.

Plus if we stop Bibles being distributed, won't we have to stop flyers on Earth Day etc?

[iamthebandfanman]

200. i think thats where mine is ;) n/t

[mcctatas]

150. were they technically on school grounds?

I got into a huge to do with my kids school, but they said because they were on the sidewalk, not school property...

[klyon]

161. here where I live we don't have enough text books for all the kids

for a school to spend money on bibles would be an outrage. Are these books being paid for with tax money? Is your library complete? I don't know any librarians that doesn't have a long list of books, periodicals or reference materials that they would like to acquire for their library. If you all got extra money send it to our library.

[AngryOldDem]

170. I really doubt the school funded this.

Most likely it was the Gideons International handing out New Testaments. It happened at my school all the time, back in the day. And it was done off property, if my memory is correct.

And if your school library needs books, can your PTO help? PTOs at schools where my kids go have a budget to purchase books for their libraries...I realize, though, that some schools just don't have the spare cash for this.

[Galway girl]

167. So What ?

There is nothing wrong with handing out Bibles . It's a book for fuck sake!! Dems complaining about this kinda shit loses us elections .

[Richard Steele]

178. Thanks for your CONCERN: "Dems complaining about this kinda shit loses us elections"

:eyes:

[Gormy Cuss]

184. You're right . There's nothing wrong with handing out free Bibles

as long as it's not done in a school or other public institution where it may leave the impression that the book is sanctioned by same.

[FiveGoodMen]

194. Dems refusing to oppose this kinda shit loses us the Bill of Rights

Dems have already become republican enough trying to chase votes.

[woo me with science]

168. Oh please. People need to save their outrage for something more important.

When did LIBERALS become so afraid of books? IMO, the more free books the better. Hand out the Koran, the Bible, the Field Guide to Insects. This is not an issue of proselytizing or indoctrination. We have all seen these Joes handing out the books. Half the kids throw them in the nearest trash bin.

I say give them out. The Bible is an important book in terms of understanding history, literature, and our civilization. Breathless fears aside, reading it does not hypnotize you and turn you into a Christian. I grew up in a fairly non-religious household and had never read the Bible until it was handed to me by some guy outside my school when I was in the seventh grade. I was glad he gave it to me, because I got to read it, and knowing a bit about it helped immensely in literature classes and in catching basic allusions in everyday life.

I would find this funny if it weren't so pathetic, that people are so upset that their children might (gasp!) be handed a book. You are sounding like Fundies who believe their children will become witches if they are ever in the same room with a copy of Harry Potter.

[shrike]

172. Thank you

Reminds me of something I read once about Bob Dylan.

Various literary types were asked for lists of the most overrated and underrated pieces of literature in the world. Dylan had only one choice for the most overrated list: the Bible. Know what his choice for the most underrated was? The Bible.

[AngryOldDem]

169. Tell your kids to JUST. SAY. NO.

Not everything needs to be made into a frigging federal case. Tell them to politely refuse the books, or, if that can't be done, take the offending Bible and then get rid of it at the first available opportunity. (A good place to donate unwanted Bibles are homeless shelters, where people ask for them all the time.)

What a concept! :wow:

Why this constantly sparks such outrage here amazes me, and just feeds into the ridiculous stereotype that all Democrats and all liberals are religion-hating fanatics. It makes us all look silly and is an unnecessary distraction to other, much more important, issues.

[Mountainman]

181. Look, some of us believe in defending the Constitution and our Constitutional rights.

It may seem like very little to you, but it is he right thing to do. There was a reason the establishment clause ended up in the First Amendment and the reason was because of people holding opinions such as yours cavalierly trample on the rights of others.

[seabeyond]

193. but moc never came back to clarify if this was outside of school. before outrage

we need to know if it wa outside the school like so many of us parents have seen at our childrens schools, that have nothing ot do with the school itself, ergo not missing with the constitution. why this poster has posted it, but not posted any more in this thread makes me wonder.

i personally cannot start a thread and walk away, especially when the info isnt complete.

probably in all likelihood not a constitution seperation of church and state issue.

[MessiahRp]

175. I hope they added a disclaimer, "This book is entirely fiction"

Since none of it can be proven and since many of the aspects (at least of Old Testament) are pure fantasy (talking snakes, parting a sea to walk across the sea floor, animals including predators and prey living in harmony together on a boat for 40 days and 40 nights), it must be fiction right?

If my son's school handed out Bibles, I'd buy Korans and start handing them out in protest and I don't believe in any religion.

Rp

[Aristus]

183. What did you expect? You're living out in the provinces.

Come to real America; Blue America, where you can have an intelligent conversation, a good cup of coffee, effective schools, and well-stocked libraries. Why do you think the rest of us fly over that part of the country on the way to somewhere else?

[ChickMagic]

187. Tell her to do what I do

"No thanks. I'm not part of that fan club". Then lower the boom!

:hi: moc

[residentfan]

198. What exactly happened?

I'm a little lost as to what happened. I'm new at posting at DU, so please bear with me. Who handed out these bibles and how? If the bibles were handed out in non-school property (such as the sidewalks across the street from the school) there may not be a law broken if they were handed out on school property then there may be a problem. Can we get details?