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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-24-08 10:40 PM
Original message
The Texas Polygamist Sect: Uncoupled and Unchartered
Williams had driven 1,200 miles (1,900 km) to Eldorado, Texas, in the hope that a brief encounter with modernity would allow him--and others like him--to push it once more far from his life. He is a believer in an antique and renegade Mormon sect that has endeavored for more than a century to keep polygamy alive in North America. His three sons were among the 437 children removed in early April from the sect's ranch in Texas, and Williams was doing his part to get them back.

But as he and other men of the sect tried to explain themselves to the 21st century, it was as if no common language existed. One man, who gave his name only as Rulon, declared, "We have broken no laws"--though the laws against having multiple wives are more than a century old. "I am a loving and honorable father," said Williams--though he has not seen his children in years, by order of the sect's leader, Warren Jeffs. Asked how he can revere Jeffs as a prophet even after the man drove him from his home, his family and the community he grew up in, Williams first spoke of a "test" he was given, but then words failed him. "I don't ... I don't ... without the full truth being understood, putting a small amount of information in it does not complete a whole picture," he said. "So I will not get into that."

-snip-

This is the latest scene in a long saga. In the late 19th century, the U.S. government told the Latter-Day Saints that the price of admission to a rich American future was the renunciation of polygamy. The official church and the vast majority of Mormons were happy to come along, but not these few. All these years later, words fail. Modernity comes speaking the language of women's rights, of the dignity and self-determination of children, of limits on the authority of fathers--and even on the authority of prophets. For people who have chosen to sit the last century out, this doesn't compute.

Nor does the state of Texas seem to understand, entirely, what it's dealing with. At first glance, the YFZ ranch has the look of other compounds built by apocalyptic cults led by charismatic tyrants. But this is a group with a tangled history many generations deep. Renegade sects have kept polygamy alive by settling far from neighbors in places like the desert canyon lands of Utah and Arizona, the villages of northern Mexico and the alpine valleys of western Canada. They have intermarried and interbred to the point that, in the words of author Jon Krakauer, their "relationships are almost impossible to make sense of without a flowchart." One figure in Krakauer's best-selling history of the sects, Under the Banner of Heaven, was both "sister wife" to her stepmother and stepgrandmother to herself. They are insular and suspicious. Williams did manage to get that much across in his meeting with the media. "What honorable father and parent would not give their all to preserve their children from a traumatic, hostile to them, even abhorrent society?" he asked. "What honorable father and parent would not give their all to protect the innocence of their children?" In 1953 authorities tried to root out the fathers and rescue the children, but after a couple of years of costly court cases and a tide of public opinion in favor of keeping families together--no matter how unconventional--the two worlds essentially agreed to ignore each other.

The families are trying similar tactics this time. They have created websites rich with photographs of tearful mothers, menacing deputies and frightened kids. All they desire, one site explains, is "the privilege of worshiping God as guaranteed by the Constitution." But live and let live is more complicated now because the buffers have disappeared. The verge of the Grand Canyon is no longer the middle of nowhere--it's the bridge from Lake Powell to Las Vegas. The jealousies and rivalries that have always boiled through polygamous communities now have ways of commanding attention. Secrets are getting out. And those alleged secrets--which range from child abuse and welfare fraud to tax evasion--have become too numerous to overlook any longer. It's hard to find a place anymore where the law will ignore you while you blatantly ignore the law.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1734818,00.html
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-24-08 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. I see little difference between a husband having children by multiple wives and a non-husband having
children by multiple non-wives.

:hi: CatWoman
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-24-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Jody
:hi:
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-24-08 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Even when those wives are 14 and 15 years old? nt
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-24-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Hell, they can have abortions and get BC pills at that age without parental consent
why not? :)
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
22. Are they being FORCED into having
abortions or taking BC pills? That's the difference here.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-24-08 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Yes. I've read many accounts of 14 & 15 year old girls having children out of wedlock, haven't you?
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-24-08 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yeah. Child rape is just so cool.
This is not about polygamy - it is about a cult that ritually rapes children.

Utterly indefensible.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Please provide a source proving the "cult that ritually rapes children" & proof that society does
not rape children in the U.S. as you seen to imply in singling out the FLDS rather than individuals.

The teenage birth rate in United States at 53/1,000 is the highest in the developed world. See Teenage Pregnancy

Note you are straying from the OP which was about polygamy and my reply #1 was about the similarity between two practices.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. OP was about FLDS, and FLDS is not about polygamy but about
forced marriage between children and grown men. Marriage is a ritual service by the cult - therefore, it is ritual rape of children.

And you know that another 25 girls were identified as being underage mothers - even before they were identified, the statistics showed that the teen pregnancy rate was 50% higher than the norm in TX. That was when it was only 5 pregnancies in the 420 children - that means with 30, it would be, what, 300% higher than TX norm.

There is no defense for these abusers. The men belong in jail, and the children rescued from the cult.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I stand by my opinion stated in #1. Have a nice day. n/t
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. FLDS is not being investigated for polygamy.
they are being investigated for child abuse and child rape.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. Please read the OP again. n/t
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Seems to me that the OP's focus
Seems to me that the OP's focus is on the denial of free will to children.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. I read the entire article...
and have been following the news coverage. This is not about polygamy.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Well the teen birthrate in FLDS..
at YFZ is higher than 30%.

Children brainwashed into spiritual marriage with men decades older than them are not free. Boys and girls never allowed to know who their own mother is are not free. Teenage boys abandoned with little education and no understanding of the outside world are not free.

Sure, children are raped outside of FLDS. Are you arguing that two wrongs make a right, or what?
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #8
21. Your comparison is apples to oranges. How many of the 53/1000 result from unions between
Edited on Fri Apr-25-08 10:01 AM by spooky3
teenagers and other teenagers, versus adult men and teenagers?

How many of those 53 teenagers are 13, 14, or 15 vs. 18 or 19?

How many of those 53 teenagers chose their partners from their group of friends, versus were told by an authority institution or leader of it that they would displease a god if they didn't have sex with the designated person?

The teenage birthrate statistic is symptomatic of social problems that deserve attention. Some of these births likely did result from forcible or statutory rape. But chances are it is a very small proportion of that 53/1000, and that other problems need to be addressed.

In contrast, the Texas cult allegedly practices institutionalized child rape and we should not confuse it with other issues to which some people have objections.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. here we go again. these are real children having babies at
puberty. there is nothing that can justify that. ever.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. inevitably male, validating fuckin our youth by adult male. go figure. n/t
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
61. And usually the fathers are also teenagers.
When the fathers are adults, they're usually arrested for statuatory rape.

:shrug:
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. The difference is free will & choice. The FDLS kids don't have either. They're basically slaves. nm
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
29. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE SEXUAL ABUSE OF CHILDREN>>>
See the difference now/!?
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
47. There is a big difference...
...this cult is defined by children having children.

When some guy gets a child pregnant, he can be held accountable. When a "church" encourages it, it's still someone breaking the law of the land.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-24-08 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
7. Where the hell was he when Jeffs moved his kids to Texas?
Where was his fatherly concern then?

Excuse me if I cry few tears for the thwarted paternal rights for this sack of shit.
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elizfeelinggreat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
58. EXACTLY
Cry us a river over that, boo hoo.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
13. Some people still believe that it's okay to keep children as slaves..
That's what the case against FLDS boils down to.

It's disappointing to see so many liberals and progressives defend slaveholders.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
14. "Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matt 7:16 )
"Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matt 7:16 )

Which I think is somewhat appropriate (and quite revealing) in the case of the statements by the sect members as opposed to their actual deeds (e.g., "loving and honorable father" vs. not having seen his children in two years, etc.).
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
15. Even the Men are brainwashed (some of them),
since they were raised in the same abusive environment as the girls. They've all been told by their authority figures that they're doing God's work
I think the problem here is that "we" have let this cult live in a de facto state of lawlessness for decades. The rape and incest has been normalized in this community over a long period of time, and now the LEAs are just going to swoop in and "fix" the problem by throwing the lot of them in jail, and sending the kids to foster care. It's justice, i guess, but the entire cult needs to be deprogrammed IMO.
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1776Forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
16. Inbreeding among polygamists producing a caste of severely deformed children
I posted this yesterday - it is very important I think to get this message out:

As a mother myself I think it is hard to watch these families being broken up for awhile, but some of the members don't know about the terrible disease that the lifestyle is causing:

Forbidden Fruit
Inbreeding among polygamists along the Arizona-Utah border is producing a caste of severely retarded and deformed children
By John Dougherty
Published on December 29, 2005

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2005-12-29/news/forbidden-fruit

(snip)

In this isolated religious society north of the Grand Canyon, few secrets have been more closely guarded than the presence of fumarase deficiency. Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints elders, who control the community, have labored to keep the public from finding out why the disorder is manifesting. Many members of the fundamentalist community don't even know it's occurring.

The state of Arizona is contributing to the secrecy. The state Department of Health Services and the Department of Economic Security have been quietly providing services to assist the children and families of fumarase victims for more than 15 years. Both DHS and DES officials refused repeated requests from New Times to document the type and cost of services the state is providing to treat fumarase deficiency. The agencies claim that federal health laws prohibit them from releasing records or allowing their authorities to comment on the situation.

Doctors and family members interviewed by New Times say up to 20 children from families in the polygamist community are currently afflicted with the condition that requires full-time attention from caregivers. Victims suffer a range of symptoms, including severe epileptic seizures, inability to walk or even sit upright, severe speech impediments, failure to grow at a normal rate, and tragic physical deformities.

"They are in terrible shape," says Dr. Kirk A. Aleck, director of the Pediatric Neurogenetics Center at St. Joseph's Hospital. Aleck is a geneticist who participated along with Tarby and others in the groundbreaking study of several polygamous families with fumarase deficiency in the late 1990s.

There is no cure for the disease, which impedes the body's ability to process food at the cellular level.

"We can only treat the complications of the disorder," Aleck says. Once a baby is born with the condition, Aleck says, "You really can't treat the underlying disorder."

(snip)

Aleck says the fact that so many people in the polygamist enclave are blood relatives of the founding Barlow and Jessop families "shows the magnitude of the problem."

The disease is not widely known about even in Colorado City, a place where even normally public events such as marriages are conducted in secret. But residents who are aware of fumarase deficiency fear that the number of children afflicted with the disease will indeed increase.

"This problem is going to get worse and worse and worse," predicts 40-year-old Isaac Wyler, another lifelong Colorado City resident who was excommunicated from the FLDS in January 2004. Wyler's ex-wife's sister has had two babies afflicted with fumarase deficiency. "Right now, we are just looking at the tip of the iceberg."

For more than 70 years, all marriages in the isolated towns have been arranged by the leader of the FLDS, a breakaway sect of the Salt Lake City-based Mormon Church.

Marriages among first and second cousins have been common for decades in the community, where religious doctrine requires men to have at least three wives to gain eternal salvation. Only the FLDS prophet can arrange and perform polygamous marriages, and those marriages are taking place in a community in which almost everybody is related.

.......

My hope is that this can be settled with as less stress as can be had in this unfortunate situation where these families themselves are victims.

O8)
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. that is a truly horrifying article
:scared:
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. and taking consideration girls have babies at 13, 14, 15 generation after generation, it
is a much faster process than most families where babies are had in twentites or even thirties. really does not take long for this to kick in every decade and half.
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1776Forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Exactly - this is also behind the moving of these children from one location to another
Edited on Fri Apr-25-08 09:56 AM by 1776Forever
by the "elders" in hopes of spreading the DNA pool around more. It is tragic and must stop!!!!
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. Interesting opinions re inbreeding. I understand that over 60% of marriages in Iraq are between
1st & 2nd cousins and that has been going on for a millennium or two.

Given the OP comments re inbreeding, would not one expect to find extensive severely deformed children in Iraq but is that true?
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. This has nothing to do with Iraq.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Post #16 to which I replied was about inbreeding. Have a nice day. n/t
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Still has nothing to do with Iraq.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Facts show inbreeding is extensive in Iraq.
CSM article Why cousin marriage matters in Iraq

"One central element of the Iraqi social fabric that most Americans know little about is its astonishing rate of cousin marriage. Indeed, half of all marriages in Iraq are between first or second cousins."
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. This thread is about the cult here in the states.
I hear a faint whine of "but everyone else does it". :eyes:
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. #16 was about inbreeding within the FLDS and whether that produces birth defects. n/t
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1776Forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. I think what you say is true as theifdoms intermarry but not at the % as this cult has.
Edited on Fri Apr-25-08 02:13 PM by 1776Forever
We only know what has happened in this area from the article I posted.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Do you know how extensive inbreeding has been within FLDS? n/t
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1776Forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. The article I posted said it has been going on for 70 yrs. See link.......
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2005-12-29/news/forbidden-fruit

"This problem is going to get worse and worse and worse," predicts 40-year-old Isaac Wyler, another lifelong Colorado City resident who was excommunicated from the FLDS in January 2004. Wyler's ex-wife's sister has had two babies afflicted with fumarase deficiency. "Right now, we are just looking at the tip of the iceberg."

For more than 70 years, all marriages in the isolated towns have been arranged by the leader of the FLDS, a breakaway sect of the Salt Lake City-based Mormon Church.

Marriages among first and second cousins have been common for decades in the community, where religious doctrine requires men to have at least three wives to gain eternal salvation. Only the FLDS prophet can arrange and perform polygamous marriages, and those marriages are taking place in a community in which almost everybody is related.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Thanks, I overlooked that stat. I found interesting stats at the link below.
The Facts About Cousin Marriages

There are no contemporary studies that indicate cousins have children with significantly higher than normal birth defects. Fears of cousins who marry having children with birth defects are indeed exaggerated. Simply marrying within your own race increases the odds of birth defects. Marrying within your own town further increases your chances. Cousin couples have only a slightly higher incidence of birth defects than non-related couples.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Fact: 26 states allow first cousin marriages; Most people can marry their cousin in the US.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Fact: No European country prohibits marriage between first cousins. It is also legal throughout Canada and Mexico to marry your cousin. The USA is the only western country with cousin marriage restrictions.

Fact: Children of non-related couples have a 2-3% risk of birth defects, as opposed to first cousins having a 4-6% risk. Genetic counseling is available for those couples that may be at a special risk for birth defects (e.g. You have a defect that runs in your family) In plain terms first cousins have at a 94 percent + chance of having healthy children. Check the links section for more information on genetic counselors. The National Society of Genetic Counselors estimated the increased risk for first cousins is between 1.7 to 2.8 percent, or about the same a any woman over 40 years of age.

Fact: Second cousins have little, if any increased chance of having children with birth defects, per the book "Clinical Genetics Handbook”– courtesy of the March of Dimes.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Fact: It is estimated that 20 percent of all couples worldwide are first cousins. It is also estimated that 80 percent of all marriages historically have been between first cousins!

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Fact: The range of consanguinity in Saudi Arabia is between 34 to 80+ percent. A study has been done on birth defects resulting from consanguineous marriages in this country. Read about it.


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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. None of those "facts" were sourced.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. Correct but the links below to sources support the conclusion that marriage between first cousins
increases the risk of birth defects but not between second cousins.

Inbreeding

Cousin couple

Consanguinity
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. It also depends on how many generations this goes on for. nt
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Do you have a source for your assertion "depends on how many generations this goes on". n/t
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Basic genetics. Amazon has lots of books on genetics, local college may offer a course also.
Having a major in biology, being a nurse, genetics was part of my training. Have you heard of evolution?

Do you know a dog or cat breeder? You could give them a call too.

The first link here has a good diagram about genetics.
http://anthro.palomar.edu/mendel/mendel_1.htm
http://www.accessexcellence.org/RC/AB/BC/Gregor_Mendel.php

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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Obviously you are not able to support your assertion. Have a nice day. n/t
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Yeah, a knowledge in basic genetics doesn't support my assertion about basic genetics.
Obviously. :eyes:
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1776Forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. That is true but we are talking about inter-marriage for over 70 years. We all know Roosevelt
married his cousin (not a first cousin, however they shared the same last name).

I think it is the consistency of the inter marrying over and over in this case that caused the problems and will continue to do so if this cult is not broken up.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. If facts support your assertion, then I agree with you. Genetic research in the 21st century will
improve prenatal testing to identify fetuses with high risk of birth defects.

I assume those who want to break up the FLDS cult because of the risk of birth defects will also support prenatal testing for all pregnant women to identify fetuses that are at risk for defects so they can be aborted early.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. Do you have a source for that assertion?
"those who want to break up the FLDS cult because of the risk of birth defects will also support prenatal testing for all pregnant women to identify fetuses that are at risk for defects so they can be aborted early."


Or is it just an unsupported assumption?
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #50
56. Guess you don't have facts to back up that assertion.
Simply accusing people of whatever you can think up. Imagine that. Have a nice day.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #50
63. That doesn't make much sense.
why not just require a blood test before marriage like Saudi Arabia now does?

Of course, these aren't real marriages so there's no way to enforce it.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. Are you simply musing about cousin marriages elsewhere in the world, or
are you trying to make a point that there is no problem with cousins marrying? I'd like to know before replying further. Thank you.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. I was replying to #16 and whether children of cousins are more likely to have birth defects. n/t
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. It depends on a number of factors.
How often it happens, how many generations cross with each other repetitively, how intensively.
As with dogs or cats, you can get by with cross breeding for a while, then there start to be more and more problems.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
43. At first I had sympathy for the mothers because I thought they really didn't know any better
But when they were asked if their very young daughters were being married off to old lechers they did not reply with, "Sure we did and according to our religion and belief system there is nothing at all wrong with that", like they would have if they didn't know what they had been doing was wrong. They knew it was wrong and still did it.

Instead they just clammed up and began crying on cue. The mothers are just as culpable as the fathers are in this tragedy.

The only innocents are the children.

Don
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. The same way they lie about not knowing who the father of their babies are
They know it is wrong. They make up excuses that it is okay to lie and cheat when it serves them.

Their tears are fake. I have pity for them for the abuse they suffered but that does not allow them the right to inflict the same on their children.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #43
57. i agree with your conclusion
don.....

all other is along the wayside
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #43
60. The women are completely powerless in that community
Would they be successful in leaving? Where would they go? How would they survive? I can't even imagine being a mother in that community. It would be like being a victim of domestic abuse. Of course you SHOULD go, but how? And what will happen to you and your children?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. i can understand. i can also understand the child raised in worst of ways
and growing up making poor and criminal choices. though i understand, they still are not allowed the cop out.

we can understand why these women. but it is not ok

the wife that is abused, or so pathetic to keep man, any man allows child to be abused. still, she gets to own responsibility

cant agree with you on this golly
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
59. "hard to find a place... where the law will ignore you while you blatantly ignore the law." LMAO!!
TRY WASHINGTON!
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