There's a war on our southern border! Who knew? The Second Amendment helping arm the bad guys?

[bushmeister0]

Reuters reports:

"Fourteen Mexican drug gang members were killed and eight others were injured in a gun battle near the U.S. border on Saturday that was one of the bloodiest shootouts in Mexico's three-year-long narco-war. Rival factions of the local Arellano Felix drug cartel in Tijuana on the Mexico-California border fought each other with rifles and machine guns in the early hours of the morning, police said. Some 190 people have been killed in Tijuana so far this year. In 2007, there were more than 2,500 drug killings across Mexico and there have been more than 900 this year."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080426/ts_nm/mexico_drugs_dc

There's a war going on right over our southern border and for this we can thank good old American entrepreneurs and the Second Amendment.

ABC reports:

"U.S. gun stores and gun shows are the source of more than 90 percent of the weapons being used by Mexico's ruthless drug cartels, according to U.S. and Mexican law enforcement officials.

'It's a war going on in Mexico, and these types of firearms are the weapons of war for them,' said Bill Newell, the special agent in charge of the Phoenix field division of the ATF, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which has primary law enforcement jurisdiction for investigating gun trafficking to Mexico.

'It's virtually impossible to buy a firearm in Mexico as a private citizen, so this country is where they come,' said Newell."

Yay, American freedom!

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4695848&page=1

Maybe Eric Thomson, the online gun dealer who sold weapons to the Virginia-Tech and Northern Illinois University shoohers should think about moving to San Diego?

Eric Thomson initially said he was "blown away" by the fact that both the Virginia Tech killer and the guy who blew away five people at Northern Illinois University both got their guns from his online gun store. He said then: "I'm shaking. I can't believe somebody would order from us again and do this," but now, after some deep reflection and soul searching, he's decided to cash-in by getting his face plastered all over the news for offering guns at cost to everyone and anyone who needs a firearm to protect themselves from the crazy people he sells guns to.

What a virtuous circle.

[notesdev]

1. Try thanking the War on Drugs

it would be more accurate. You put that sort of money in peoples' hands, it doesn't matter what is legal and what is not.

[High Plains]

2. I know guys who work gun shows in the Rio Grande Valley

They say many of their customers are Mexican--Mexican cops, Mexican soldiers, Mexican narcos.

[ThomWV]

3. Yep, its our 2nd Amendment causing drug wars in Mexico ... give me a fucking break.

Mexico would look like fucking hobbits lived there if it weren't for our right bear arms. God dam us and our foolish Founding Fathers.

[bushmeister0]

13. Yes, the Founding Fathers who lived in a country without a standing army

and sometimes beset by hostile Native Americans (gosh, I wonder why?) on their borders. Back then the idea of the local men folk keeping a musket over the hearth for quick reaction into a well regulated militia made sense.

I'm quite sure Jefferson never envisioned he was giving every nutcase with a grudge license to rampage throughout a college campus, for example, at will until he ran out of ammo.

[notesdev]

15. The nutcases were already breaking the law

At VT I know for sure that the campus was already a "gun free zone", and we all know how well that worked out for them.

To a killer, that's the same as advertising an "unarmed victim zone".

Disarmament laws are least effective against the people who are most desirable to disarm, and most effective on people who aren't a problem. Until someone manages to solve this problem, gun laws will be DOA in most of this country.

[bushmeister0]

17. Of course, people also have no problem shooting cops

who are most assuredly armed.

If there weren't so many of them around and so easy to get, maybe we wouldn't have so many dead cops as well.

[High Plains]

22. No, not causing, but exacerbating.

I have no clue what you mean with your hobbit remark, but American guns are flowing into Mexico like crazy. To deny it is foolish.

Yes, I imagine if by some miracle, the US gun supply dried up, the cartels would look elsewhere, but it wouldn't be nearly so easy as just going to a gun show in Brownsville or Tucson.

As for the heavier weaponry, I suspect a lot of that is originally US military hardware, too. There have been a couple of scandals where members of Central American militiaries have been caught peddling to the cartels the weapons we gave them to fight commies.

And no, our 2nd Amendment isn't causing Mexico's drug wars, our policy of drug prohibition is. We are complicit in what is going on there, one way or another, and probably in several ways.

[Indenturedebtor]

44. Well... that's some ignorant shit

Original Message
Yep, its our 2nd Amendment causing drug wars in Mexico ... give me a fucking break.
Posted by ThomWV
Mexico would look like fucking hobbits lived there if it weren't for our right bear arms. God dam us and our foolish Founding Fathers.


--------------------

You've never left the country have you? Do some reading about the history of Mexico. They have a proud heritage all their own.

Our drug war is causing their drug war... and they're buying their guns here to shoot each other.

Personally I don't have a problem with people walking around with muskets... it's the 20 bullet killing machines that seem to cause so much damage.

[Speck Tater]

4. Rival factions shooting it out.

So you've got bad guys shooting bad guys. And that's a problem why? Looks more like a self-cleaning oven to me.

[file83]

5. In all honesty though, those drug dealers would buy the guns on the black market if

they couldn't buy them here in the U.S.

And in that situation, as they say, then only the criminals would have guns.

Also, while 90% of the guns were purchased here, where did those other 10% come from? If you cut off this U.S. legal source, then that other source will fill the niche. It's just cold hard fact of economics.

Illegal arms dealers don't respect law. They don't respect borders. If there is a market for weapons, they'll find a way to get those guns to market. Nothing stops this from occurring. Where do you think all those AK-47's come from you see in every conflict around the world? They don't buy them from American sporting good stores.

If it is upsetting that this is going on, just remember, this country pays for the price of freedom to drive cars by having about 42,000 people die a year in car accidents, so... we could outlaw cars, but then, only criminals would have cars.

[bushmeister0]

10. Why do we have to make it easy for them, though?

[hack89]

14. Why do we have to make it hard?

especially at the expense of our constitutional rights? Sounds like Mexico needs to get its house in order, not us.

[Elspeth]

6. is this another Hegelian "crisis" designed to take another right from US citizens?

Hmmm

[bushmeister0]

7. Oh please, paranoid much?

[Elspeth]

8. Read and learn, grasshopper

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3210741

[bushmeister0]

11. I agree with you this whole globalization thing is scary

but I don't see what that has to do with having reasonable gun laws. My dad used to be a big gun guy, he went out and hunted. I have no problem with responsible people going out and hunting etc. But that doesn't mean that every pimple-faced dork with a credit ard should be allowed to buy a bunch of Glock 9s online and blow away a bunch of people who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, just because he can't get laid.

I don't understand why normally rational people completly lose their shit when guns come up. Maybe if folks were so fanatically fixated on the other Bill of Rights, W. and Co. wouldn't be now able to read our emails, listen in on our phone calls, lock up people indefinitely without charge etc.

[Edweird]

31. If "more laws" is the answer, just lobby to make murder illegal.

That should do it.

[Edweird]

32. And for the record how many "pimple-faced dork" deaths are there every year?

As far as I can tell, not very many. Your fear of them seems somewhat irrational.

[bushmeister0]

33. Um. . . Isn't 33 too much?

[Edweird]

35. We live in a free society. With that freedom comes risk.

This "you don't need that right anyway - it's for your own protection" crap is the same as the RW'ers justification for eavesdropping, unlawful imprisonment and torture.
The "we just want reasonable gun laws" BS is the same as the fundie attacks on a womans right to choose.
There are already adequate laws.
The guns are not the problem. Look at the UK. They banned guns outright, and their murder rate is essentially unchanged.

And what gun law exactly would have stopped Ryan Schallenberger? HMMM?
NONE.
The teen planned to make several bombs and had all the supplies needed to kill dozens at Chesterfield High School, depending on where the devices were placed and whether they included shrapnel, Lear said. Ammonium nitrate was used in the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 that killed 168 people.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24230688/

What stopped him?
His parents.
The same people that should have stopped the others.

[bushmeister0]

42. Nice Darwinist bullcrap there. And if a baby is born deformed it

shoud be left out in the wilderness, I guess, too.

We're all on our own, better get a gun and hide in the bunker. That's the kind of world I want to live in.

[Edweird]

43. What does Darwin have to do with this? Unless you have no rational response and are trying to

change the subject.

If you want to live in a country that you can be nearly absolutely certain of your personal safety, you need to move. The USA is not for you. Singapore may be more your speed. Their violent crime rate is next to zero. How they get there, though, is unacceptable to me and most other Americans. Imperfect as they are, I'll take my chances with the current gun laws. Unlike you, I AM NOT AFRAID.

Furthermore, if you really want your "undersexed and acned" teens to stop killing people, why don't you lobby against fast food.
500,000 (!) Americans die each year from heart problems. Hell, teens kill exponentially more people with CARS than GUNS!

[bushmeister0]

45. Darwinism; you know, the survial of the fittest.

I'm not trying to change the subject. What you're describing is exactly that.

People are safer than thay used to be and I thought the idea of living in our society was the pursuit of happiness.

Speaking of Darwin, I thought we were evolving, not devolving back into the stoens age, only this time better armed. (Guns kill more people that stones and much quicker.)

Instead of regressing to the level of the worst of our civilization, let's try to rise above. There's a concept.

[Edweird]

46. No. I'm not. I noted our individual freedoms. You brought up "deformed babies" (?)

The fact that our country embraces individual liberty which grants its citizens unfettered opportunities to act lawfully OR criminally has exactly ZERO to do with Darwinism. In our society we have a great deal of latitude in our actions. Our government is relatively un-intrusive. There are social programs and financial help for those with your much ballyhooed "deformed babies". Your insistence that I am somehow advocating Darwinism is outright nonsense.

There are now, always have been, and always will be, people that will use violence to achieve their goals. No matter how much YOU "rise above" there are others willing to beat you down.

"But, clearly, the prime minister has laid down some ground rules which any functioning democratic state would insist upon, having to do with, you know, arms belonging to the state, not to -- not in private hands," she said. "The current circumstances come out of what I think is a very important and indeed appropriate action that the Iraqi government has taken." -- Condi Rice, secretary of state

What does that mean to you?
To me it means that the neocons JUST realized that an armed populace is impossible to subjugate. Which is precisely (as I understand it) the main (but not SOLE) purpose and intent of the 2A.

I don't know what world you live in, but I live in the REAL world. The one where bad things occasionally happen. I HOPE for the best, but PREPARE for the worst.
If you believe that the guns are the problem, you should spend some time in prison. There are no weapons of any kind allowed, yet people are murdered, raped and assaulted daily. Why? I don't know. But it happens.

If you have deluded yourself into believing that your imagined "superiority" or accelerated "evolution" somehow immunizes you from the actions of OTHERS... well... you're free to believe that.
But don't try force it on me.

[bushmeister0]

47. Barbarism breeds barbarism

"You should spend some time in prison. There are no weapons of any kind allowed, yet people are murdered, raped and assaulted daily. Why? I don't know. But it happens."

Perhaps if our penal system wasn't so barbaric, things might be different. You know, in Rome they had no jails. There was one temporary holding cell in the Forum called the "Carcer" (where we get the word "Incarcerate'), which was basically their deathrow.

Crime wasn't that big of a deal because people we more affraid of being ostracized than they were about the local constabulary.

The vast majority of Americans don't commit violent crimes, either, so we shouldn't let a minority turn our streets and our mindset into a warzone. Killing isn't a natural human behavior. Why do you think the military has to try so hard to sych-out recruits to get them to kill another person?

Less barbarism, more economic justice and less opportunities for the bad guys to get their hands on weapons that can rapidly kill multiples of people in less than a minute is the answer to solving our violent crime problem, not arming ourselves to the teeth.

And if Condi and Co. were really so intent on disarming the populous they wouldn't be so quick to immasculate the ATF (and whatever other letters they're using now)and activily prevent any kind of sensible gun regulation to get through their rubber stamp legislatures all over the country.

If you think the Bush administration is anti-gun, you really are paranoid. Jeesh.

[coriolis]

36. grasshoppers can't read. They, like cockroaches, are insects.

...

[nebenaube]

9. ah...

The fruits of prohibition... Happened with alcohol too.

[bushmeister0]

12. Again, for the record, I'm not advocating for total prohibition.

Read above.

[NickB79]

16. Yeah, I'm sure the Mexican drug cartels are buying machine guns in the US

"Rival factions of the local Arellano Felix drug cartel in Tijuana on the Mexico-California border fought each other with rifles and machine guns in the early hours of the morning, police said."

If they have machine guns, that means they can get pretty much anything they want from anywhere. There have been reports of RPG's being fired in some battles!

[Edweird]

18. "Ohhh I'm afraid where do I go to give up my rights....."

What was it Newt said?
Ah yes
“People will give up all their liberties to avoid that level of threat.“

This whole gun grabber argument line is doing the RW's dirty work for them.
Congratulations.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. Wait a minute, I thought machine guns were too expensive

for anyone but collectors to own. :shrug:

[ThomWV]

20. Nope, the guns are cheap, its the license to own one legally that is expensive.

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. That's not at all what I was told here last week

in a thread about the Kansas governor signing a bill making it legal to own a machine gun in Kansas. In fact both here on DU and on the floor of the state legislature, the argument was presented that machine guns cost a minimum of $20,000 so we didn't have to worry about them being used for violent crimes.

Now I see they ARE being used in Mexico for violent crimes. Hmmm.

[Pavulon]

24. Machine Guns are regulated by the Federal

government. The NFA classifies certain weapons as machine guns. Typically this would cover a select fire rifle, like the M4 up to a Browning m2 traditional looking "machine gun". The m4's rifles natural price is about 700 dollars. However the government does not allow weapons like the M4 manufactured after 1986 to be sold to civilians at all. So if you want an M4 in addition to the federal background check, and $400 tax stamp you must purchase out of a limited pool of weapons.

They may be remanufactured but none are new. So $20,000 is a ballpark for a rifle that is worth $700.

This law works because it is rigorously enforced.

The weapons used in mexico probably come from internal sources who legally purchased them in mexico (police, army) and them sold them.

[Edweird]

26. Why don't you shop for one and see for yourself?

http://www.impactguns.com/store/machineguns.html

Looks pretty expensive to me, but then I'm a working stiff.

[Edweird]

25. I think you've got it backwards.

The licenses are inexpensive.
A pain in the ass to get, but cheap.
Legitimate regulated N.F.A. firearms are ungodly expensive.
http://www.impactguns.com/store/machineguns.html

[NickB79]

30. Yeah, real cheap

http://www.gunsamerica.com/976963164/Guns/Rifles/Class-3-Rifles/AK74SU_Bulgarian_Krinkov.htm

Only $21,000 for a full-auto, legal AK-47.

[Horse with no Name]

21. You forgot Juarez (Texas border at El Paso)

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/pa/pa_3028.html

>>>snip
Violent criminal activity fueled by a war between criminal organizations struggling for control of the lucrative narcotics trade continues along the U.S.-Mexico border. Attacks are aimed primarily at members of drug trafficking organizations, Mexican police forces, criminal justice officials, and journalists. However, foreign visitors and residents, including Americans, have been among the victims of homicides and kidnappings in the border region. In its effort to combat violence, the government of Mexico has deployed military troops in various parts of the country. U.S. citizens are urged to cooperate with official checkpoints when traveling on Mexican highways.

Recent Mexican army and police force conflicts with heavily-armed narcotics cartels have escalated to levels equivalent to military small-unit combat and have included use of machine guns and fragmentation grenades. Confrontations have taken place in numerous towns and cities in northern Mexico, including Tijuana in the Mexican state of Baja California, and Chihuahua City and Ciudad Juarez in the state of Chihuahua. The situation in northern Mexico remains very fluid; the location and timing of future armed engagements there cannot be predicted.

Armed robberies and carjackings, apparently unconnected to the narcotics-related violence, have increased in Tijuana and Ciudad Juarez. Dozens of U.S. citizens were kidnapped and/or murdered in Tijuana in 2007. Public shootouts have occurred during daylight hours near shopping areas.

Criminals are armed with a wide array of sophisticated weapons. In some cases, assailants have worn full or partial police or military uniforms and have used vehicles that resemble police vehicles.

U.S. citizens are urged to be especially alert to safety and security concerns when visiting the border region. While Mexican citizens overwhelmingly are the victims of these crimes, this uncertain security situation poses risks for U.S. citizens as well. Thousands of U.S. citizens cross the border safely each day, exercising common-sense precautions such as visiting only legitimate business and tourist areas of border towns during daylight hours. It is strongly recommended that travelers avoid areas where prostitution and drug dealing occur.
Criminals have followed and harassed U.S. citizens traveling in their vehicles, particularly in border areas including Nuevo Laredo, Matamoros, and Tijuana. There is no evidence, however, that U.S. citizens are targeted because of their nationality.

[davidthegnome]

27. There is still the question of

Whether or not guns are actually necessary today, in many areas, for self defense alone. It is, once more, an issue heavily tied to drugs.

For example, up here in Caribou Maine, there was, some time ago, a city hmm... I think they called it a city council or something. A gathering of over 1000 people (HUGE turnout for a town with such a small population) to discuss the issue of the growing drug trade. Particularly among our youth, high school kids.

I went myself, as my own family has been touched by this. Two of my sisters experimented - and eventually became addicted. One to painkillers, another to EX.

It's interesting who else showed up. Guys I knew very well were drug dealers, some of them I'd even gone to school with. Young women who I knew were into EX, meth, crack.. you name it. Among them of course, were many middle-aged parents, (my own included) most of them who had had their own experiences during the 60s or 70s.

I remember our Chief of Police talking in great detail about the bust on a local meth lab over a year ago (or maybe it's two years ago now) and I also remember the former Chief of Police who, any student of my generation could have told you, was a good man to go to if you needed a little cocaine.

Yet overall, the people who were there had genuine concerns and wanted to do something to address the issue. Many of them parents of children who they'd seen suffer with addictions, or who had criminal records as a result of selling.

Unfortunately, despite the early popularity, the whole thing fell apart as most of us realized the local, state, and federal powers didn't give enough of a shit to help us.

In the last few years, people breaking into homes to steal drugs (raid your medicine cabinets, etc. easy enough to find people with back problems, surgeries, or some form of illness for which they take medications) has become increasingly common. Only recently a small group of high school boys (and even a couple girls) beat an old woman's dog (a puppy) to death for barking as they were stealing her medications.

It's only a matter of time before they become even more daring and more desperate, considering the falling economy. Next time it will be the old lady they shoot, along with her husband and the visiting grandchildren. It's bad everywhere and I'm afraid it's going to get worse.

So, yes, many people up here own guns for more than just hunting, and I do not blame them. I live with my parents who won't allow a gun in their home, but all the same I wonder what I would do if some of those drug-seekers broke into our house some night and decided to have their way with us.

Our second amendment isn't the issue here, even if our policies do provide weaponry for these gang battles. The alternative is far worse. Here in the land of the free and home of the brave.... we need our guns, to protect us from each other.

[bushmeister0]

29. More than likely those guns intended for home protection are going to wind up in

the hands of those very people breaking in.

Even the NRA admits stolen guns are a big problem. Naturally, it's all very self-serving, seemingly because their aim is to protect out of control gun dealers the likes of Eric Thomson.

"According to Americans for Gun Safety (December 2002), gun theft is most likely in states without laws requiring safe storage of firearms in the home and where there are large numbers of gun owners and relatively high crime rates. Based on FBI data, nearly 1.7 million guns have been reported stolen in the past ten years, and only 40% of those were recovered. The missing guns, over 80% of which are taken from homes or cars, most likely fuel the black market for criminals. NEA, AGS and the National Rifle Association advocate for safe storage. To access 'Stolen Guns: Arming the Enemy' visit www.agsfoundation.com"

http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsafety/gunsafety/statistics.htm

And most thefts are never reported, because there's no law mandating it.

Of course, while the NRA is so worried about stolen guns, they're also very active in preventing states like Pennsylvania from passing laws that mandate reporting the theft of guns.

Weird.

Seems to me you can't have it both ways, but as I've said rationality isn't the strong suit of those on the "more guns" side.

If you can't see straight on an issue like this, if all you see is red when even the mention of regulating guns comes up, then you're just putty in the NRA's hands. Do you seriously believe they're agenda is really in your best interest?

[Edweird]

38. I know for a FACT that *YOUR* agenda isn't in my best interests.

I don't belong to the NRA, they don't speak for me, so I don't give a shit about them either way.

[ColbertWatcher]

28. Are you Lou Dobbs?

Watch Lou Dobbs' tie send out a warning about who's crossing our borders!

[UTUSN]

34. You pegged the flamebaiting!1 n/t

[ColbertWatcher]

39. DO I WIN SOMETHING!? n/t

[UTUSN]

40. My undying appreciation for not flaming ME, as I was in one of the other bomb-throwing threads!1 n/t

[ColbertWatcher]

41. There are so many...

...remind me which one that was?

[RedCappedBandit]

37. Sad how much worse the world is because of the war on drugs.

[boppers]

48. Thomson's a site spammer.

www.gunsatcost.com www.shotgunworks.com www.midwesthuntersoutlet.com www.amerigloweaponsights.com www.lasermaxstore.com
www.ar15pro.com www.hkperfection.com www.xdpistols.com www.allglock.com
www.waltherpistols.com www.thegunsource.com www.bersapistols.com www.sigsauerpro.com www.rugerlcp.com www.gsg5rifle.com www.thegunsource.com ... all his.