Is fat acceptance a progressive issue?

[lightningandsnow]

It's interesting - a lot of progressives don't seem to be pro-fat acceptance, even less so than some conservatives.

And yet, all of the pro-fat acceptance people I know are progressives.

I consider myself fairly pro-fat accpetance, unless someone is so obese that it severely impacts their health. But I hate false beauty standards.

Your thoughts?

edit: more info: http://www.naafa.org/

[nomorenomore08]

1. I think "live and let live" is a fundamental progressive value, and fat acceptance is part of that.

These "nutrition Nazi" types (found even on DU) don't strike me as very progressive in that respect.

[VotesForWomen]

122. correct; many DUers show themselves to be snide little children on this issue.

[Bluzmann57]

2. Well I'm fat

I eat too much, I drink beer, I am bald as well. If a person can't accept me, I don't care. I want to be accepted for what's left of my mind. Rock and Roll.

[rurallib]

31. All that we can accept - but that Cubs avatar

that's too much!:toast: :toast: :toast:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

74. Awww I gotta feel for my former

Baseball cousins in the hopeless cubs fans ;) keep hope alive cubbies

[depakid]

3. Not really sure what "fat acceptance is."

Does it mean, for example, that someone doesn't decry junk food advertisements aimed at kids?

Or does it mean simply treating other human beings with respect, irrespective of their weight?

or is it something else?

[nomorenomore08]

4. I think she means the second, not the first.

nt

[depakid]

21. I don't know, that's why I asked

because on more than one occasion, I've been accused of some sort of prejudice based on what seem to me to be objective policy positions with respect to public health.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

75. I think as a political agenda it goes *slightly further*

than saying be nice and humane.

Some people consider higher rates for health insurance on obese people to be wrongful discrimination..

[Squatch]

145. There used to be a Fat Acceptance Group someplace here on DU.

[Double T]

5. TOO MANY Americans are overweight and need to lose and get healthy.

How could ANYONE be PRO-FAT acceptance; obese people need to be motivated to lose.

[Systematic Chaos]

11. Okay then, exactly what SHOULD you do with overweight people?

If you're not going to "accept" them, should you insult them instead? Look down upon them?

Pray tell, exactly what do we do with these obese people?

[Double T]

17. Just what I said, motivate them, encourage them to lose weight for their own sake.

Accepting obesity is ENABLING OBESITY! It ain't OK to be obese!!

[Raejeanowl]

38. It Ain't OK To Be A Lot Of Things

Including convinced of your superior right to impose your health decisions on other people "for their own good."

Do you practice safe sex and remain monogamous? If not, I think you should.

Stop drinking and smoking also. Both do terrible things to your arteries and I don't want to pay increased insurance premiums because of your self-abuse.

Do you get enough sleep? Exercise? Take your vitamins? Floss? Well, when are you going to start?

I need to discriminate against you until you do all of the things I think best, because to do otherwise is enabling you.

Any and all of my examples can potentially have catastrophic impact upon your health. The chief difference is that while you can hide a bottle or a pack of smokes or a clandestine affair, obesity is out there 24/7 for others to view and judge and target for abuse and discrimination.

[distantearlywarning]

60. Nice post!

:applause:

[lapislzi]

62. Word!

Excellent comeback.

[El Pinko]

64. I get where you're coming from, and fat people have every right to live as they please...

...I would never condone discrimination against fat people unless the job required fitness or smaller size, and nobody deserves ridicule or contempt just for being heavy.

However, NAAFA does tell its morbidly obese members that in essence, they are fine the way they are, that being overweight- even morbidly obese - does NOT pose a serious health problem. They tell them that "diets don't work" so they may as well give up and enjoy eating what they like ("diets" don't work, but permanent changes in eating habits do).

If NAAFA was just about teaching people to accept all body shapes and to love their bodies regardless of shape or size, I'd be cool with that.

It's their absolutely irresponsible medical advice that I have a major problem. Morbidly obese people don't need to try to be skinny, but if they want decent mobility, quality of life, and any sort of reasonable longevity, they need to at least keep their weight at a level of "slightly overweight" BMI.

In the end, it's up to individuals to decide how they will eat, but NAAFA, as a national organization with an appearance of some authority, is cheating its members by giving them a mantra that morbid obesity and good health can go together.

That is simply not true.

Here is a slideshow of attendees at NAAFA's 2005 convention. It's great that they could be together and have a good time, but few of them look healthy to me.

http://www.naafa.org/Convention2005/photos2/index.html

Most look to be suffering from limited mobility already, and some are probably not long for this world because of their obesity. NAAFA is doing them a terrible disservice by not encouraging them to change their eating habits.

[distantearlywarning]

82. Unfortunately, you simply can't tell how healthy a person is by looking at them.

Statistically, people as big as the ones in the picture may be more likely to die of diabetes or heart disease. But that doesn't mean that any or all of the people in those pictures, or anyone you meet on the street, has diabetes or heart disease because of their weight.

It's the same thing as saying, statistically more black men go to prison more often than white men, so I know that any and every black man I come across is an ex-convict. After all, they all look like criminals to me!

By the way, I am not obese like the people in those pictures, but I'm a pretty big girl. I would have to lose 40 lbs to be at a normal BMI. And yet...I am in good cardio health (resting HR and HR recovery in moderately athletic range), my BP hovers around 110/70 (and is sometimes lower), my cholesterol levels are perfectly decent, and the last time I had a blood sugar test it was normal. In fact, I'd be willing to put up my health stats against the average skinny girl any day. And I bet I'm in better athletic shape than your average skinny girl because I exercise 6 days a week (cardio and weight lifting).

Despite all that I bet I'm the kind of person you'd see on the bus and think, "Gee, she should lose weight. How disgustingly unhealthy she is!"

In case you're wondering, I've tried to lose the pounds. It just doesn't happen, even if I literally starve myself. I have a thyroid problem, and something about that disease makes weight loss very difficult. Nobody seems to want to research why thyroid patients struggle with weight, preferring instead to assume that we all sit on the couch and eat pies and soda 24-7. Blaming people is apparently just easier and less expensive than actually doing anything about a problem. In the meantime, I have given up on losing it and I just try to eat and exercise in a way that makes me feel good on a daily basis. I also try hard to ignore the slights that I didn't receive from other people when I was skinny (and didn't exercise and ate like crap).

And I've just basically given up on trying to educate anyone in the world outside of DU. Everybody already knows the answer about me (or at least they are convinced they do), and they don't want to hear anything that doesn't match that answer, so fuck their arrogant, ignorant attitudes. And frankly, eventually I'll probably give up on DU too. It's really discouraging to read the anti-fat bigotry over and over again in these threads for years from the same posters with no change in comprehension.

[El Pinko]

99. I was 60 lbs over normal BMI - It was not healthy.

Your stats may be okay now - I assume you are young. Eventually being that heavy will catch up with you and no amount of exercise will undo it. I'm sorry that you have a thyropid problem, which makes weight loss difficult, but it does not make it impossible. I'm not assuming you're on the sofa eating pies all day. It only takes a surplus of 100 calories per day to lead to a weight gain of 1 lb a month. Most people who are overweight don't "eat like pigs". They do eat too much, usually it's bads of butter here and dabs of dressing there and little things they forget to account for that add up to a calories surplus.

"I have given up on losing it and I just try to eat and exercise in a way that makes me feel good on a daily basis." I'm sorry to hear that, as exercise is useless without a healthy diet. A healthy diet does not just mean healthy content, it means proper portions.

[distantearlywarning]

117. Sorry, but you don't know anything about me.

You never asked me what I eat, you just assumed. How do you know that eating lots of vegetables isn't what makes me feel good? Although I'm sure you won't believe it, here's what I ate for dinner last night (on my disgusting, butter & dressing filled piggy fat-person diet): 6 oz of broiled salmon, a relish made of lemon zest, red onions and a teaspoon of olive oil, & a few pieces of steamed asparagus with salt. This morning for breakfast I had about an ounce of skim mozzarella, a pear, 5 rosemary crackers, some tea, and a hard-boiled egg. Lunch was 6 pieces of California roll, edamame, and water. Tonight we are having grilled lean London Broil and green salad, plus I might have a glass of clementine juice cut half with sparkling water. This is a very typical daily diet for me. No butter, no fatty dressings, no pies, soda, cakes, or what have you. I will also go home tonight and lift weights for about 45 minutes while I watch American Idol. Yesterday I did 45 minutes of moderate cardio activity (I own and use a heart rate monitor, so I know exactly how much work I put into any exercise I do).

In other words, you don't know the first thing about me or how I live my life, or the life of anyone else with a weight problem. And you need to stop pretending that you do.

Your post was very condescending, very insulting. And very typical. Sir, you can fuck right the hell off. Come back when you develop a metabolism disease of your own and then we can actually have a conversation about reality.

On Edit: I'm not particularly young either - more like middle-aged, so that's just one more thing you are completely wrong about.

[El Pinko]

156. I know one thing about you for certain - you're either overeating or undereating..

It doesn't matter if it's pats of butter of salmon or mountains of broccoli. A calorie surplus will produce weight gain, and a calorie deficit will produce weight loss over time.

Any doctor will tell you this and it's the truth. I never called you or anyone else piggy - just mantioned the kind of things that turn a healthy diet into one with a slight surplus for most people.

There was nothing condescending or insulting in my post, but yours is pathetically rude, profane and overly defensive.

Thank you for the laborious description of your routine. Sounds pretty carefully thought-out for a person who has "given up on it".

Since you went to the trouble to list everything, I'll take a look at it, combining last nights dinner with today's breakfast and lunch

6 oz of broiled salmon - 290 calories
a relish made of lemon zest - 1/2 cup - 25 calories
(1 medium) red onions - 41 cal
a teaspoon of olive oil -39 cal
(1/2 cup) steamed asparagus with salt - 21 cal
an ounce of skim mozzarella - 79 cal
a pear - 97 cal
5 rosemary crackers - 70 cal
some tea (zero to 100 calories depending on sugar content)
a hard-boiled egg - 67 cal
Lunch was 6 pieces of California roll - 216 cal
edamame (1/2 cup) - 126 cal


Assuming these amounts to be accurate, you ate about 1070 to 1170 cal during that 24 hour period.

The actual number could be drastically different based on the amount of edamame, relish, asparagus you ate, the size and content of the crackers, etc.

If you are eating that few calories, it could be that too few calories is stalling your metabolism and slowing down your weight loss. A female of short stature at about age 40 should be eating 1200-1600 cal per day of nutritious food to maintain healthy weight...

It's nice of you to mention the exercise, but that's more about maintaing health than weight. Recent studies have shown that exercise has very limited effectiveness in losing weight - it takes a LOT of exercise to burn off a few calories.


Anyway, you can keep spewing profanity and defensiveness all you want - I couldn't care less, but don't read judgments into my comments that were not there. I made no assumptions about what YOU eat, and I don't think people who have dabs of butter or dressing are "piggy" in the least. They're just unaware of the cumulative amount of calories they are taking in during the course of the day. God knows I was. I was shocked when I first took a hard look and diligently measured and calculated EVERY SINGLE THING I ate in a day. It was over 3000 calories, even though I had assumed it to be closer to 2400, and I was topping that off with almost 1000 calories worth of beer on weekend nights! No wonder I gained so much.

Anyway, best of luck and health to you.

[distantearlywarning]

160. Let's just put it this way:

I object strongly to you or anyone else suggesting that my weight loss or lack of it is due to something that I am doing wrong, rather than something that I have little control over (a metabolism disorder). Every time I have this conversation with a weight-fanatic, it's the same thing - if I'm not eating too much, I must be eating too little. If I'm not eating too little, I'm eating too many carbs, or too much protein, or not enough vitamins, or not enough water, or juice, or cabbage soup or whatever thing the weight-fanatic has convinced themselves is the magic key to weight loss. In any case, the explanation is never EVER that there is just something about me that doesn't allow me to lose weight, something that is simply just not under my control. Because, after all, if that was the explanation, how would people be able to justify stigmatizing me to themselves??? And the universe would seem like an awfully uncontrollable place, and that's scary. What if the weight-fanatic developed thyroid disease themselves (it's fairly common) and *gasp* couldn't lose the weight either?!?!?! Way too scary a thought. Much easier to console oneself with the thought that the person you are being smug to is just simply eating too much/too little/not the right things/not enough cabbage soup. Right?

Anyway, I used to accept that BS from society, and spent literally 5 years on one different diet or another. I counted calories, I ate low-carb, I ate Mediterranean, I ate too many calories, I ate too few, I starved myself, I did the Zone, I spent 3 hours a day exercising, I did pretty much everything. And I honest-to-God never lost more than 5 lbs. NEVER. It wasn't even a question of maintaining weight loss. I never got to a point where I would need to maintain anything. I just don't lose weight. I even went through a period where I was eating less than 1200 calories a day (and I know because I counted everything that went into my mouth), and I still lost nothing. NOTHING. Just imagine how discouraging that is when everyone around you, including all the oh-so-helpful progressives on DU, is telling you that if you just did this thing or that thing you would lose the weight... I actually considered suicide several times over it.

Now, interestingly, eventually I noticed that I never gained anything either regardless of what I was or was not eating, except for the times when my thyroid meds were off. In fact, it was pretty much like clockwork. I would be at a certain weight for 8 months, and then all of a sudden I would gain 5-10 lbs without any change in lifestyle. I'd go into the doctor, and sure enough, I needed a boost in medication. And of course, I was never able to lose it again, even when my meds were fixed. :-(

In fact, that's how I noticed I was hypothyroid in the first place. I was actually quite skinny (and very cute too) through my teens and early 20's (about a size 2-4) and then all of a sudden gained 30 lbs in literally two months with no consequent change in eating. I went to the doctor, and bam, hypothyroid. And it was all over from there.

So I know exactly how people treat the skinny vs. the fat, because I've been both places, and I'm still the same person on the inside regardless of how big my outside is. And it's bullshit. And I'm not accepting that anymore. I've spent many years in total self-loathing over something that I now realize I have little control over, and I'm not doing it anymore. I'm sorry that you don't like the profanity, but that's just how I feel these days. All of you smug, self-righteous people can fuck off. You don't get to judge me or tell me what to do or even think or pretend that you know anything about me or my lifestyle. You don't.

I'm sincerely glad that you were able to lose your weight. But you need to realize that your situation isn't the situation other people face, either as a heavy person or someone who is trying to lose the weight. And you need to knock it off with the know-it-all smugness. You don't know it all. You just know about you.

By the way, I'm going to tell you again, since you didn't seem to grasp it the first time: I exercise because it makes me feel good and it helps me sleep at night. I don't exercise because it helps me lose weight. And I eat the way I do because it makes me feel good and not have panic attacks and feel sick when my blood sugar sinks. I don't do it to lose weight. Anyone who actively tries to lose weight for 5 years becomes an amateur expert in nutrition and calorie counting. I'm well aware of the tenets of pretty much every weight-loss theory out there you can name. So I don't need lectures about this hypothesis or that one. But thanks anyway.

[El Pinko]

161. Thank you for explaining your thyroid disorder.

By the same token, there are people who have mysteriously gained weight in their gut only to find it was a huge TUMOR!

I'm sorry you are dealing with a diagnosed thyroid condition - you didn't mention it before.

In fact, severe diets or weight-loss surgery can cause death in thyroid patients, so yes, they are a special case.

I realize that calorie-counting doesn't work for EVERYONE. It does work for most, though. Problem is that people think of it as "a diet", they do it for a while, lose weight, then go back to eating the way they did before.

It sounds like you have a good handle on your condition and are living as healthfully as you can with it. Here's hoping you stay well.


Thank you for your thoughtful reply and pointing out that there is an exception to every rule.

[distantearlywarning]

162. Wow, thanks.

I appreciate the reasonable reply. And I apologize for swearing at you.

[El Pinko]

163. No prob - in context, it makes sense.

Sorry I made wrong assumptions about you.


Also - despite the fact that you used profanity, you went to the trouble to explain things, and not everyone is thoughtful enough to do that...

[eridani]

175. According to your reasoning, it's black people's own damned fault that they have shorter lives

And I can prove it. When I stay out in the sun, my skin gets darker, and when I spend more time inside, it gets lighter. I keep explaining this to those ignorant dark folks and they persist in doing it wrong. My own experience proves that they are wrong. So there.

[El Pinko]

208. You're not even making sense.

Black people's higher level of pigmentation has absolutely nothing to do with their mortality rates.

Those are more related to a. higher violent crime rates in black neighborhoods
b. lifestyle factors like diet and smoking

As for fault, in this case I don't really think it can be assigned to any one particular thing, not do I see a need to assign blame.

And for millionth time, saying that most overweight people CAN PERMANTENTLY LOSE WEIGHT is not "assigning blame, being judgmental, or hateful". It's just the truth.


Your analogy that people who tend to be obese are like people who tend to be darker couldn't be more flawed.

Aside from a few people with specific disorders like hypothyroidism, the vast majority of overweight and obese people can and do lose weight when their calorie intake is reduced in tandem with some exercise.

Look at all the people who have had gastric surgery - they almost invariably lose huge amounts of weight - because they have been FORCED to restrict their calorie intake to a degree that they were unable or unwilling to do before. (This is not to say that I advocate gastric surgery - I don't. I think it's far too risky and drastic a cut in calories, but I do think it proves that calorie reduction does work, but that many people who claim to be "dieting" are willfully or unconsciously underestimating the amount of food they eat. Another problem with gastric surgery is that it does absolutely nothing to address the underlying reason for the obesity which in many cases is an unhealthy psychological relationship with food and/or an addiction to sugar, simple carbs and processed foods. - this is why after a lot of weight loss, many gastric patients eventually figure out ways to increase their calorie intake despite the lap-band or other stomach-restriction device - by taking it in the form of smoothies or other easily digested high-calorie routes)

You said it yourself - you choose to eat more than is healthful because the hunger pangs you get from sensible portions are too distracting at work.

A black person cannot stay inside and become white, but you COULD lose weight with the right calorie intake - you just don't think it's worth the distraction/discomfort/whatever.


I occasionally feel distracted and unsatisfied with my portions, but the feeling of vigor, lightness and energy that I have since losing all the weight is more than worth it to me, so I live with it.

I can always have a carrot or some broccoli if I'm really hungry - otherwise I can wait for the next meal.

For the most part, keeping my calorie intake below 2000 is pretty easy. Filling up on veggies goes a long way toward preventing any real hunger.

It's a shame you are so hyper-defensive about this issue. I honestly respect your right to eat as you please and stay at the weight you are at.

But I think you do others a huge disservice when you tell them that portion control, exercise and healthy foods cannot help them to get to a healthy body composition

Just because you feel that something doesn't work for you doesn't make it so for everyone.

Over at the calorie count community http://caloriecount.about.com/forums/recent/ there are literally hundreds of people ho have gotten their excess weight off, and are keeping it off, and I can tell you that for the most part, fad/crash diets are not encouraged at all. And the posters there are decidedly NOT hateful towards fat people!
There are anorexics/bulimics who post there as well, and all the other posters try to encourage them to get their weight up into a healthy range.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

220. 30 to 40 MILLION people is "a few"????

It is estimated that 30 to 40 million people in the United States have thyroid disorders, the majority of them hypothyroidism, and they are untreated or undertreated. Women are told it's normal to be cold, fatigued and depressed, and they are given antidepressants.

I have had to argue with my doctor about getting enough thyroid. If I took the recommended dosage I would be bedridden with cold and fatigue.

A previous doctor titrated my dosage. That means to start with a small amount, go up gradually, get to a high number, come back down, and STOP at the dosage at which I have energy and feel good. That number is unfortunately twice as high as the medical community thinks it should be.

www.stopthethyroidmadness.com

[eridani]

174. Obesity does not pose a health problem. The genes that lead to it do.

NAAFA just recognized biological facts, which are that people who evolved under conditions of scarcity aren't likely to be average weight no matter what they do. That doesn't mean no exercise--the most popular workshops at NAAFA conventions are workout groups. The biggest complaint from people who take those classes is how hard it is to find psychologically safe space to continue what they have learned back home.

Ironically, many NAAFA members don't join until they get really terrified that they will never stop gaining after so many yo-yo dieting experiences. There is a lot of relief that they at least get to a point where they aren't making their problems worse.

An interesting aside--sumo wrestlers are the world's only 100% successful dieters. They periodically fast because when they go back to eating they gain weight much more easily than before they fasted. Since that's actually what they are trying to do, that counts as success. Japanese wrestlers are really unhappy with the influx of Polynesians into the sport, because genetically the Polynesians gain weight much more easily.

[JackDragna]

204. Obesity is significantly different from all those things.

Obesity has a significant cultural component to it, stemming from our lack of good, nutritious food, our overconsumption of what food we do eat and our sedentary lifestyles. It should be the goal of people who promote public health, such as physicians, to encourage people who are obese to lose weight, just as they should encourage people to get enough sleep and exericse regularly.

[TommyO]

71. Let's turn it around a little bit:

Accepting homosexuality is ENABLING HOMOSEXUALITY! It ain't OK to be gay!!

Accepting Negroes is ENABLING NEGROES! It ain't OK to be negro!!

Accepting Jews is ENABLING Jews! It ain't OK to be a Jew!!


I hope this has illustrated just how bigoted even progressives and liberals can be.

[Indenturedebtor]

78. Different category

"Let's turn it around a little bit:
Posted by TommyO
Accepting homosexuality is ENABLING HOMOSEXUALITY! It ain't OK to be gay!!

Accepting Negroes is ENABLING NEGROES! It ain't OK to be negro!!

Accepting Jews is ENABLING Jews! It ain't OK to be a Jew!!


I hope this has illustrated just how bigoted even progressives and liberals can be."

--------------

While I agree that obese people shouldn't be discriminated against in terms of getting most jobs (well I can't be a linebacker can I?), they should be encouraged to make better choices. I'm a smoker. I don't expect people to lie to me and tell me that I smell good, or that just because a percentage of the population is more genetically predisposed to addiction that it's ok for me to smoke, or to drink every night. I do both. It's disgusting and yes it does make me less attractive with my yellowing teeth and fingers, bags under my eyes, stinky breath, hacking cough. Yuck.


Eating, smoking, drinking, consuming too much is gross and does bad things to your health. These are choices that we make, irregardless of the fact that these are harder choices for many people.

Now certain aspects of beauty appreciation are hardwired into us. In the category of beauty though, the "perfect weight" is highly variable among different cultures. However, in general being so skinny you wouldn't last a couple of days without food, and being so overweight that you can't run is pretty much universaly held to be unnatractive.

[asthmaticeog]

77. I think we should all draw false binaries.

But would the "excluded middle" constitute fat non-acceptance? :shrug:

[QueenOfCalifornia]

63. It isn't pro fat

Look - I am fat. I know it. I also have many things about me that have nothing to do with my looks. It means to accept a person for who they are.

It is never going to happen - people will not accept me for my abilities because they will ALWAYS judge me for my looks. I do not expect you to understand though....


Me - Gilligan

[eridani]

173. No, they don't. Abuse is not motivation

Only sociopathic shitstains would think it is. If yammering about how evil fat is actually worked, why isn't everyone thin?

[MrSlayer]

6. I do not think it's an issue at all.

There are fat people in all political parties and philosophies.

[Dorian Gray]

45. Yes.

I agree with that. There are some progressives and some conservatives who are accepting of rotund people, and there are some who are self-righteous and "grossed out" by the heft. I think it's really an individual issue.

However, I have no problem with restaurants being required to provide general nutritional information to their clients, and i also have no problem with a nutrition class being required of all students in high school. I also think that there should be a general population push to get people exercising.

I do not think that employers or health plans should discriminate based upon weight. I also think that if you treat someone who is overweight at sub-human, you are an asshole.

[MrSlayer]

50. Completely agree.

[Skittles]

7. people should just be treated in a decent fashion

regardless of how much they weigh

[AlCzervik]

14. ding ding ding, we have a winner!

:thumbsup:

[Jamastiene]

210. I agree with your post as well.

:thumbsup:

[guyanakoolaid]

8. What is acceptance?

As long as it doesn't affect their job, what is there to accept? What is there to legislate? Certainly current laws prevent discrimination.

As for social acceptance, that shouldn't be an automatic thing. Societal disapproval is a valid way for a society to tell people it disapproves of their choices, whether for society's or the person's own good. We should certainly be polite to all people, but just accepting that fat is normal is another thing, and I think that's what this is. People don't even want to be told by friends or family often that they are overweight, they demand that it just be considered normal, and it's not. It's an epidemic in this country that needs to be addressed.

It's a bit of a double standard for society to constantly attack smokers but demand the overweight be given a free ride from the same disapproval.

[nomorenomore08]

10. Well, maybe they shouldn't attack smokers either. Just a thought.

nt

[guyanakoolaid]

13. The war on smoking was begun with one of the most faulty EPA decisions ever

Studies were more than inconclusive, highly weighted to no damage at all in research for the effects of second-hand smoke. The EPA chose to run with a select handful of reports and begin their smoker-jihad with them.

[Raejeanowl]

40. You'll Always Get A Skewed Result

Not to be a smart ass, but real smoking doesn't happen in a lab. You can't tease out all of the other carcinogenic substances inhaled daily by those also exposed to side-stream smoke, so how anyone seriously expects to make reliable disease or mortality predictions, blaming them all on a single substance, I'll never know.

[Lorien]

110. Not so. See post #109. n/t

[Raejeanowl]

219. Nothing About Your Post Contradicts What I Said

I am not saying that second-hand smoke might not be detrimental, or even that it is not detrimental.

What I am saying is that all of the research "results" indicating a degree of mortality and disease and attributing it to a single substance, in a world where none of the people exposed to it were not also exposed to other toxins simultaneously...are results extrapolated upon an intrinsically faulty premise.

[Lorien]

109. Smoking impacts the health of non smokers.

Obesity only kills the obese person (both leave the survivors heartbroken):

Secondhand Smoke Fact Sheet

June 2007-American Lung Association

Secondhand smoke, also known as environmental tobacco smoke (ETS), is a mixture of the smoke given off by the burning end of a cigarette, pipe or cigar and the smoke exhaled from the lungs of smokers. It is involuntarily inhaled by nonsmokers, lingers in the air hours after cigarettes have been extinguished and can cause or exacerbate a wide range of adverse health effects, including cancer, respiratory infections, and asthma.1

*
Secondhand smoke has been classified by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) as a known cause of cancer in humans (Group A carcinogen).2
*
Secondhand smoke exposure causes disease and premature death in children and adults who do not smoke. Secondhand smoke contains hundreds of chemicals known to be toxic or carcinogenic, including formaldehyde, benzene, vinyl chloride, arsenic ammonia and hydrogen cyanide.3
*
Secondhand smoke causes approximately 3,400 lung cancer deaths and 46,000 heart disease deaths in adult nonsmokers in the United States each year.4
*
Nonsmokers exposed to secondhand smoke at work are at increased risk for adverse health effects. Levels of ETS in restaurants and bars were found to be 2 to 5 times higher than in residences with smokers and 2 to 6 times higher than in office workplaces.5
*
Since 1999, 70 percent of the U.S. workforce worked under a smoke-free policy, ranging from 83.9 percent in Utah to 48.7 percent in Nevada.6 Workplace productivity was increased and absenteeism was decreased among former smokers compared with current smokers.7
*
Fifteen states - Arizona, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Maine, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Ohio, Rhode Island, Washington and Vermont - as well as the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico prohibit smoking in almost all public places and workplaces, including restaurants and bars. Illinois, Maryland, Minnesota, Montana, New Hampshire, Oregon and Utah have passed legislation prohibiting smoking in almost all public places and workplaces, including restaurants and bars, but the laws have not taken full effect yet.8
*
Secondhand smoke is especially harmful to young children. Secondhand smoke is responsible for between 150,000 and 300,000 lower respiratory tract infections in infants and children under 18 months of age, resulting in between 7,500 and 15,000 hospitalizations each year, and causes 430 sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) deaths in the United States annually.9
*
Secondhand smoke exposure may cause buildup of fluid in the middle ear, resulting in 790,000 physician office visits per year.10 Secondhand smoke can also aggravate symptoms in 400,000 to 1,000,000 children with asthma.11
*
In the United States, 21 million, or 35 percent of, children live in homes where residents or visitors smoke in the home on a regular basis.12 Approximately 50-75 percent of children in the United States have detectable levels of cotinine, the breakdown product of nicotine in the blood.13
*
New research indicates that private research conducted by cigarette company Philip Morris in the 1980s showed that secondhand smoke was highly toxic, yet the company suppressed the finding during the next two decades.14
*
The current Surgeon General’s Report concluded that scientific evidence indicates that there is no risk-free level of exposure to second hand smoke. Short exposures to second hand smoke can cause blood platelets to become stickier, damage the lining of blood vessels, decrease coronary flow velocity reserves, and reduce heart rate variability, potentially increasing the risk of heart attack.15

For more information on secondhand smoke, please review the Tobacco Morbidity and Mortality Trend Report as well as our Lung Disease Data publication in the Data and Statistics section of our website at www.lungusa.org, or call the American Lung Association at 1-800-LUNG-USA (1-800-586-4872).

Sources:

1. California Environmental Protection Agency. Identification of Environmental Tobacco Smoke as a Toxic Air Contaminant. Executive Summary. June 2005.
2. Ibid.
3. The Health Consequences of Involuntary Exposure to Tobacco Smoke: 6 Major Conclusions of the Surgeon General Report. A Report of the Surgeon General, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 2006; Available at: http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/secondhandsmoke/factsheets/factsheet6.html: Accessed on 7/7/06
4. California Environmental Protection Agency. Identification of Environmental Tobacco Smoke as a Toxic Air Contaminant. Executive Summary. June 2005.
5. U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Report on Carcinogens, Tenth Edition 2002. National Toxicology Program.
6. Shopland, D. Smoke-Free Workplace Coverage. Journal of Occupational and Environmental Medicine. 2001; 43(8): 680-686.
7. Halpern, M.T.; Shikiar, R.; Rentz, A.M.; Khan, Z.M. Impact of Smoking Status on Workplace Absenteeism and Productivity. Tobacco Control 2001; 10: 233-238.
8. American Lung Association. State Legislated Actions on Tobacco Issues (SLATI). Available at: http://slati.lungusa.org/StateLegislateAction.asp Accessed on 6/18/07.
9. California Environmental Protection Agency. Identification of Environmental Tobacco Smoke as a Toxic Air Contaminant. Executive Summary. June 2005.
10. Ibid.
11. Ibid.
12. Schuster, MA, Franke T, Pham CB. Smoking Patterns of Household Members and Visitors in Homes with Children in United States. Archives of Pediatric Adolescent Medicine. Vol. 156, 2002: 1094-1100.
13. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. America’s Children and the Environment: Measures of Contaminants, Body Burdens, and Illnesses. Second Edition. February 2003
14. Diethelm PA, Rielle JC, McKee M. The Whole Truth and Nothing but the Truth? The Research Philip Morris Did Not Want You to See. Lancet. Vol. 364 No. 9446, 2004
15. The Health Consequences of Involuntary Exposure to Tobacco Smoke: 6 Major Conclusions of the Surgeon General Report. A Report of the Surgeon General, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 2006; Available at: http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/secondhandsmoke/factsheets/factsheet6.html: Accessed on 7/7/06

[Raejeanowl]

41. Not On One Point

You can separate the smoker from the cigarette in a matter of seconds. Not easily or permanently, I know, but work with me here (I am a former smoker and totally empathetic about nicotine addiction).

Smoking will always be perceived as only a behavior.

Fat is part of someone's physical being. Fat, even if caused by a behavior, becomes who you are. Therein lies the difference.

[treestar]

86. There have always been fat people

It's not "abnormal."

[CTyankee]

137. If you go to Italy you as an American feel fat even if you are not by our standards.

It's surprising when you depart from an Italian airport full of thin people and arrive in an American airport and just look around.

When I am in Italy I don't gain weight eventho I eat wonderfully. Iguess it's because the walking there tends to be arduous with lots of hilly terrain. I huffed and puffed all over Perugia! I didn'thave any problems after downing their food, wine and chocolates (oh, their chocolate shops, to die for!).

It's amazing when you see a restaurant full of Italians eating a dinner that lasts for hours, with severalmore courses than we eat and always with wine. It's a big production!

But no one is obese there so I have to wonder why. Some things I don't think are healthy there are their breakfasts of pastries and coffee. They are repulsed by American breakfasts full of eggs,sausage,etc. But I do like protein in the a.m. so I try to sneak in an egg or at least some fruit...

[eridani]

177. Maybe being obsessed with dieting makes you fatter? n/t

[Scout]

93. get back to us when someone dies of "second hand fat" n/t

[guyanakoolaid]

94. Sorry, I don't have the patience to keep track of all the mothers I see shoveling fatty foods in

their obese kids' faces.

[grace0418]

158. It would only be a true double standard if someone's obesity affected the health of others.

You may not like looking at someone who is obese, but it's not going to make your asthma worsen or give you cancer. There's the difference.

[eridani]

176. Telling people where they can smoke is not "attacking smokers"

Do you get fat by looking at fat people.

[AZBlue]

212. Free ride? As a fat woman, I can tell you there's NO free ride being given to me.

I've been looking for a job for a year. Yes, I'm very qualified. Yes, I've got great reference and excellent background. And, I happen to know that I interview very well. I get responses to my resume, I get a phone interview, I'm told they are very interested - and then they meet me at the in-person interview. And that's it. They've even suggested things to me like, "this job keeps you on your feet all day" and "you need a lot of energy for this position." I'm losing weight because I realize that until I get down to a certain weight, I have no chance whatsoever of getting a new job. Free ride?

Don't even get me started on the stares and comments from people I don't know. Or the kids who are overweight and teased and bullied at schools. Or people in grocery stores analyzing everything in a fat person's shopping cart (yes, that happens). And so on.

And I'm not even that fat. I have lots of energy and can do much more physically than a lot of thinner women I know. I have no health issues due to my weight and can get around just fine, thank you.

[peacebird]

9. I prefer that I, my family and friends maintain healthy weight, because it's better for us -

I do not abuse or criticize those who become fat (or obese)

But I do know it would be better for us to be slimmer, physically active, and mentally active as well.... I guess I don't understand the question?
Fat Acceptance?

I guess when I think of false beauty standards it is the air-brushed perfection of celebrities - hell - if I had millions of dollars plus an entourage to do my hair, makeup. lighting and clothes I dare say I would look better too...

[AlCzervik]

12. i think you need to be more specific, i'm not really sure what you're after.

i don't make fun of fat people, as a formally large person i know first hand how difficult losing weight and keeping it off is, i also have a teenage daughter so i am cognizant of body issues and self esteem issues.

[panader0]

15. "He ain't heavy, he's my brother......."

Give me a hand here.

[BlooInBloo]

16. As long as I get to decide what sexy to me (and not for others), sure.

[IrishBloodEngHeart]

18. love the sinner, hate the sin

I think you have to love people and not judge them, but set public policy in a way that encourages people not to be self destructive. I don't judge smokers, but I certainly encourage them to quit.

[Juche]

19. I'm a very strong fat acceptance progressive

I used to be alot thinner but after reading the works of people like Paul Campos I stopped taking diet pills and gained all the weight back. Sometimes it is something I regret and I will probably have to relose the weight eventually due to health reasons, but when you see all the mental damage our intolerant attitude towards fat does to people (especially women) you can't sit by and encourage that kind of prejudice anymore.

As far as being fat and health, most of the deaths associated with being obese are due to cardiovascular issues, which have roughly 180+ risk factors, many of which are more important than obesity. Point being, yes obesity is bad for cardiovascular health (60-70% of the deaths attributed to obesity are due to CVD issues). But so is not exercising, smoking, loneliness, sleep deprivation, stress, poverty and a hundred plus other issues. In fact I think poverty, lack of religious belief, stress or loneliness will shave more years off life expectancy than obesity.

No idea why some progressives are so anti-obese. Maybe they consider it a sign of materialism and gluttony, no idea.

[nomorenomore08]

23. "No idea why some progressives are so anti-obese."

You could just as easily ask why so many progressives are fanatically anti-smoking. Or why so many are almost as uptight as the Religious Right on sexual issues. I think it might be a remnant of our Puritan beginnings - I like to say that guys like Cotton Mather and Jonathan Edwards were our REAL Founding Fathers, more so than guys like Washington and Jefferson.

[El Pinko]

52. Some progressives are anti-obese, most are just anti-obesity.

Why would anyone be in favor of a debilitating health condition?

[nomorenomore08]

92. Well, I'm certainly not "in favor" of debilitating health conditions.

I was simply responding to the last line of Juche's post, speculating about the psychological (or perhaps religious) motivations behind disapproval of overweight people. I don't think either he or I are saying that obesity is a good thing.

[Skittles]

44. lack of religious belief?

WTF??? I would bet that having to put up with a world filled with "people of faith" shaves years off MY life.

[madmom]

53. I agree, because when religion is the topic of conversation, I'm suppose to not

voice my opinion (I don't do the god thing) because it upsets the apple cart, why should I have to "bottle up" my feeling because some one else does believe and doesn't want to be upset by my beliefs, their beliefs affect me WAY more than mine affects them.

[SmokingJacket]

61. And heck, if there's a heaven you'd think

a person might be in a bit more of hurry to kick off.

I'm going to do everything in my power to stay out of the cold, cold ground.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

76. They might feel the same way

about Godless people like you ;)

[Dogtown]

80. They can complain

when I force them to buy beer on Sunday.

When their marriages are disenfranchised.



The only laws that prohibit their activity is separation of church & state, which they are determined to violate.

"They", of course being an undetermined (but suspiciously vocal) percentage of believers, chipping away at our rights, or refusing rights that they hoard for themselves.

No smiley-face will undo the damage done to our country in the name of this "belief", please don't make light of what looks to be brewing a 2nd Civil War.

Go: pray for my soul if you must, but please don't weary us with it.

[spoony]

96. "2nd Civil War"?

I'm pretty sure that nothing anyone else could say would "make light" of your complaints quite like you just managed to do with your over-the-top silliness.

[Dogtown]

108. sure, ostrich.

The evangelical christian right have been insinuating themselves into our government increasingly over the decades since the 40s.

They have done their best to organize politically and to insinuate their rank and file deeply in local government.

THEY won't stop until we have a theocracy in this country, or @ least in the previous confederate states. Do you really think they'll stop?

To THEM, is the right to choose less heiness than slavery? Remember, these folk LITERALLY believe the KJV.


I'm a transplant to the deep south, I live in the exurbs of Atlanta.
Rural Georia. Unless you've seen it, you cannot imagine.

When was the last time you saw a mass baptism of adults dressed in white, walking down a C of E boatramp with jetskis and bassboats zooming by? These aren't fringe-dwellers and snake-charmers. These are your neighbors here. Seriously, large percentage of the cars on the road sport fish plaques and magnetic ribbons.

There is already a revolution going on in this country. If you *can't* see it, you better wake-up. They don't characterize it as such. They see it more of a hostile takeover. AND, it's the will of their deity.

You know, you may think belittling the opposition will posture you in a flattering illumination, but you'll likely just underestimate them because of their "silliness". THAT'S one peril of sophistry. The other is, you take yourself too seriously.

[spoony]

138. Right, well you'd better start training for trench warfare

instead of wasting time posting online. I mean, if it's as serious as people having fish on their vehicles, I guess it's time for you to begin stockpiling ammo. Lol.

Off you go, then.

[Dogtown]

152. ooooh!

sarcasm & dismissal.

That's certainly the response of an adult.

[spoony]

167. No, of course crying for civil war over a Jesus fish is the mature response.

Say something worth anything more than "sarcasm & dismissal" and you'll get more than that. As it stands you're just a hysterical ninny.

[Dogtown]

201. " crying for civil war"....

NOT what I said.

"please don't make light of what looks to be brewing a 2nd Civil War."

That's lamenting the hijacking of our government, not crying for bloodshed.

You *do* understand the use of hyperbole and metaphor in informal discourse, don't you?

Do you dispute that this administration and their evangelical, fundamentalist faux-christian advisers and handlers have overthrown the separation of church and state provision of this country's constitution?

Have they not looted our treasury with illegal "faith-based" charities that, @ the very least, steal that money to fund their proselytizing?

Has stem cell research been approved and funded by the American government?

Has Roe/Wade been under constant attack from a judiciary stacked with neocon judges?

Do not these holyrollers politicize their puplits with impunity while not being taxed as the businesses they surely are?

Explain how this does NOT constitute an illegal overthrow of my country.





Revolutions need not be bloody to be successful, as I pointed out in a previous post: "There is already a revolution going on in this country." You choose to cherry-pick my post for things you can ridicule by taking them out of context, and we know exactly the sort of folk who abuse those cheap tactics. Since you profess to be a British subject residing in the northenmost region of your host country, perhaps you are ignorant of the seething hate that festers in the former Confederate States of American, but that would argue that you are both unaware of events unfolding here and have no knowledge of our very realistic concerns.

I'm nauseated by the stench of damp fur and moldy earth. (there's another metaphor for you, son.)

Weary others with your disruptive and sophomoric pretensions. You've unmasked yourself and I'll waste no more time.

[spoony]

207. No indeed, no time to waste! The Salvation Army is encamped

across the Potomac, ready to make their final charge to wrest control of the government! The dastardly soup kitchens have their supply lines fully stocked, so why are you wasting more of your precious, precious time?

[Skittles]

98. I don't go door to door asking people not to believe

so no, I think they have the nutty factor much more cornered

[Juche]

97. Its true though

http://www.livescience.com/health/060403_church_good.html

Fat religious people probably have a longer life expectancy than skinny atheists.

[Skittles]

100. I'll take exercise over religion any f***ing day

and it's not religion itself that helps - it's just people getting together - for WHATEVER reason. It's called SOCIALIZING.

[Lorien]

111. Amen, lol!

n/t

[Lorien]

112. Obesity is often related to stress, loneliness, and poverty

and having a very obese father, I know what kinds of extremely severe health issues are caused by being overweight. There's a good reason why there aren't many fat 80 year olds on the planet.

Obesity can also lead to stress and loneliness. There is nothing "good" about it, though I don't think that people should suffer discrimination for being obese any more than they should be discriminated against for being anorexic, having cancer, or suffering from depression or mental illness. Ultimately it's just another health issue, and one that can be resolved with either lifestyle changes or surgery.

[Ian David]

20. There is a difference between being "fat-accepting" and being concerned about one's health.

You can be concerned for the health of a loved one whose health is impacted by obesity, while still accepting them and loving them.

I think the "acceptance" part comes in not being judgmental or bigoted about it.

[eridani]

181. Right. Just like there is a concern about being "gay accepting" and genuine concern about AIDS

In other words, disguised snotty superiority.

[MikeNearMcChord]

22. Question from the cheap seats.

What about the fact that most foods that is responsible for obsity are cheaper than the good nutritious foods? Why is that not reversed?

[grasswire]

24. because they are made from government subsidized ingredients.

That's why.

[mainegreen]

47. Corn!

ADM!
Cargill!

Nixon!

That's why.

[AZBlue]

213. Because those companies make a lot more money with the ingredients that lead to obesity.

They are cheap. And, if they cause addiction in some people, which has been proven in some studies, so much the better - an instant return customer.

[stevedeshazer]

25. Paraphrasing Dr. Martin Luther King:

I have a dream that my children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by their weight but by the content of their character.

[Marr]

26. No, but healthy body image would good to promote.

There's a huge difference between obesity, which can lead to all sorts of serious health problems and should not be promoted-- and what pop culture calls "fat"-- but isn't.

[lightningandsnow]

33. You do have a point.

What about people who are technically "overweight" but have mostly healthy diets and are just built that way?

I'm not overweight by medical standards, but I am somewhat curvy (size 8 or so), and "fat" by fashion industry standards.

I have an acquaintance who is part of the fat acceptance movement. She's considered techincally overweight, but her body is quite proportional, and it just seems to be the way she is. She actually seems to eat quite healthy and excercise regularly

[Dorian Gray]

46. That's like me....

I'm still overweight after losing 45 lbs. (I need to lose about 25 more.) But, I'm in really good shape right now. I can exercise, my cardio system is in awesome shape, I eat well, my BP is 110/70. All my blood work is in optimal levels. But I'm definitely "Fat" by fashion industry standards. Probably obese in their standards. (Of course I would still be obese in their standards if I lost 45 MORE lbs. But, I have no interest in becoming a size 2 (as a 5'9" woman, I'd be quite happy at a size 10.)

As long as I'm in shape physically and can beat the crap out of my husband through my kick-boxing training ;) , I don't really care what size I am.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

121. Based on BMI, we're all fat...

I was reading an article several years back (2002ish) where the author pointed out that according to the standard BMI calculation, Evander Holyfield -- one of the finest specimins of the human body ever produced -- would have been identified as "mildly obese" or some such label. The article included a picture of Holyfield in his boxing togs. Mildly Obese? YOU tell him!!

[Toucano]

87. Ding! Ding! We have a winner. n/t

[undeterred]

27. A lot of progressives are selective in their tolerance.

It is not one groups pejorative to decide "what to do" with another group.

[ccharles000]

28. We should love everybody.

If they are not doing anything illegal I don't care.:hug:

[Bluebear]

29. YES indeed, also, look for the reasons people have to eat cheap calories in a land of plenty.

Why are so many middle to lower class people fat? Perhaps because good food is expensive food. 5-for-a-dollar macaroni and cheese dinner is all that some families can afford to "put food on themselves".
So yes, I think a progressive ideal is to accept people how they are and try to improve their lives if they are interested and we can.

[flvegan]

30. No.

"fat acceptance" is based upon the judgment of another. The progressive issue is not judging another person based on their height, weight, gender, etc, etc.

What "progressives" really need to understand is that largely, cheap and convenient has replaced everything else, and there is NO nutritional training in this country. None. I'm an advocate for the overweight for many reasons, but I don't like the "acceptance" tag that goes with this.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

66. See #63

no one is asking you to do anything - except to accept a human being for what they are. No different than accepting anyone else with their flaws and they baggage.

[petronius]

68. "Accept" and "tolerate" (and versions thereof), are words that are often

used to mean something positive, but have always had a condescending, judgemental tone to me. Especially tolerate (since I tend to define tolerance from the engineering perspective of how far off spec something can be before it has to go in the trash).

WRT the OP, I agree - the progressive position on this issue is to advocate an educational system that recognizes and teaches the value of healthy diet and exercise, as well as a food-economics system that doesn't favor the manufactured crap...

[roody]

32. We are all about to lose some weight in

this economy.

[eridani]

184. Nope. Not all of us.

The following is a quote from an article in the New York Review of Books "Godot Comes to Sarajevo" (Vol XL #17, pp 52-59, October 21, 1993) by Susan Sontag. (Not online, unfortunately.) She went there to put on the play "Waiting for Godot" when Sarajevo was under daily bombardment--people wanted artistic diversion as much as they wanted food. The quote is a very brief aside from the main topic.

The only actor who seemed to have normal stamina was the oldest member of the cast. Ines Fancovic, who is 68. Still a stout woman, she has lost more than 60 pounds since the beginning of the siege, and this may have accounted for her remarkable energy. The other actors were visibly underweight and tired easily. Lucky must stand motionless through most of his long scene but never sets down the heavy bag he carries. Atko, who plays him (and now weighs no more than 100 pounds) asked me to excuse him if he occasionally rested his empty suitcase on the floor throughout the rehearsal period. Whenever I halted the run-through for a few minutes to change a movement or a line reading, all the actors, with the exception of Ines, would instantly lie down on the stage.

Another symptom of fatigue: the actors were slower to memorize their lines than any I have ever worked with. Ten days before the opening they still needed to consult their scripts, and were not word-perfect until the day before the dress rehersal.

It ought to be obvious to anybody that Ines was energetic not because of weight loss, but because she had the weight to lose. Note that she is still fat after having endured severe famine conditions for a couple of years. It seems to have been much easier for her to tolerate going from 300# to 240# (my guess) than for Atko(hypothetically) to go from 160# to 100#.

This tells you why some people are fat--more of their ancestors than usual had to withstand conditions like this. It pays to have at least a few people in every society who are still mentally alert and physically capable under conditions that make metabolically normal people weak and stupid, even if they have major disadvantages when times are good. Sure looks like at least one fat old lady could really sing it during bad times.

If you have a metabolism like Ines, the only hope for coming close to "normal" weight is a lifetime commitment to recreating the famine conditions your ancestors were genetically adapted to, and for many people that isn't going to be feasible.

The health nazis think that fat people ought to be required to live under a permanent state of siege, Sarajevo or the equivalent forever. What if you would prefer to have an actual life?

[nickinSTL]

34. this is my take...

people who are overweight know it, and most these days know of the potential health risks.

I don't presume to tell them how to live their lives, and I don't treat someone who weighs 250+ any differently than I treat someone who weighs 120 or less.

I have struggled with weight all my life. I eat a very controlled diet for that and other reasons. However, I don't try to push others to eat the way I do.

Some people have different priorities. For me, I'd rather be as healthy as possible for as long as possible. Some seem to prefer to enjoy food without thinking about the consequences.

I might not consider that the best choice for me, but I won't interfere with anyone else's right to determine what is right for them.

[ismnotwasm]

35. Sure it is

I'm very much a health advocate. The field I work in deals with dialysis among other things, so I know the obesity/diabetes/kidney failure connections very well.

And while I consider myself a health advocate, I've observed that being fat doesn't automatically mean someone will be in poor health anymore than an "health nut" is guaranteed freedom from health difficulties. Extra weight can statistically raise chances for a number of concerns though.

What someone does with their body is important, including a good diet and good exercise habits, mental health is also important-- meaning the ability to appeciate your body, the medium you use to move through the world and experince life with. When all you encounter are twisted, negative images and messages, that can be very hard to obtain.

I do know that much of what people tend to base opinions on of other people is appearance. What we find beautiful can be manipulated in a lot of ways. Fat prejudice does exists to the point of extreme cruelty, and fighting cruelty in whatever form it takes is the ultimate progressive issue to my mind.

[El Pinko]

36. NAAFA's version of fat acceptance is irresponsible.

I agree with the idea of accepting our bodies, imperfections and all - and not everyone was meant to be skinny.

I'm also very opposed to crash/fad/yo-yo-dieting. Long-term lifestyle changes are the ONLY way to go.

But NAAFA takes it one step further, telling MORBIDLY obese people that they are fine as they are and that as long as they eat healthy food (even if it's mountains of it), that that's just great.

NAAFA are disgusting enablers of addictive, eating-disordered behavior. It's not surprising that the man who started the organization was a skinny man who was a "chubby chaser".

[nomorenomore08]

42. "The man who started the organization was a skinny man who was a 'chubby chaser.'"

I'm sorry, I know it's a serious issue, but that is just too fucking funny :spray:. Morrissey just popped into my head singing "Some girls are bigger than others..."

[El Pinko]

43. I wish I could delete that post.

I was told online that he was a chubby chaser, but when I researched online, I found no info to that effect.

William J Fabrey is his name, and he is overweight, although he doesn't look morbidly obese to me. I have not been able to find anything online showing that he is anything but an activist for fat people's rights, anti-discrimination, etc.

I personally don't have a problem with that - in jobs where physical fitness or being in small spaces is not a requirement, I fully support the fight against discrimination against fat people.

I personally have lost 100 lbs over the last 2 years. I just got a new, better paying job last week, and I doubt that would have been possible if I was still heavy. People really do judge you on this.


But I disagree with NAAFA's contention that being severely overweight is not dangerous. It leads to diabetes, amputations, and early death.

How often do you see 80-year olds who weight 400 lbs?

[Dorian Gray]

48. Congratulations on your weight loss....

100 lbs. is amazing, el pinko! You should be really proud of yourself. It took me over a year to lose the 45 lbs. that I lost, and I'm still working on losing more (plateaus suck!), but I'm always amazed at those who are capable of losing over 100 lbs. I know how difficult it is to get started. It all seems so overwhelming! Kudos to you!

[El Pinko]

51. Thanks - Kudos to you too.

I was always kind of heavy as a teen, then got lean in my 20s with a lot of exercise, but got heavier and heavier in my 30s, in part due to inactivity (too busy with work) too much beer on weekends (self-medicating) and just general midlife/financial-induced depression.

Seeing a video of myself at 275 lbs looking like someone I didn't recognize really shocked me into action. It's been a long haul. I have been tracking everything I eat at www.fitday.com and also post on the online community at about.com

http://caloriecount.about.com/community

Both are great resources for weight loss and staying motivated. I have stumbled a few times, but having a community to talk to helps get you on track.

I think the fact that I'm a man and 6'2" makes losing weight a bit easier than it might be for a woman, esp. of shorter stature.

I think a lot of the people in NAAFA have tried fad/crash diets and failed or rebounded, and are bitter at the people who have succeeded. They are the first ones to point out to you the statistic that "95% of people who have lsot over 30% of their body weight gain it back within 5 years". Of course that's because 95% of those people were on "diets" and didn't continue their healthy eating habits once they were "done". I don't intend to ever eat an uncontrolled/unmonitored amount of calories again in my life.

I had GERD, reflux, ankle pain, clothes didn't fit, you name it. Now I feel great and look as good as I ever have. In fact, I'm 38, but am always mistaken for a guy in his 20s.

Anyway, statistics are just that - I know people who have kept fit long-term and am confident that I will too.

Best of luck!

[Dorian Gray]

101. Thank you!

It is difficult for a woman at times. Our metabolisms don't work quite as quickly as yours do! But, I finally broke through my months long plateau this morning! So I'm psyched!

Anyhow, it's always impressive when someone changes their lifestyle. I also use online tools: www.sparkpeople.com (it's been a fantastic tool!). Luckily, my insurance plan also covers a nutritionist whom I see once a month, as well. It's really been a fantastic journey, and I feel better at 36 than I have since my early twenties! :)

[eridani]

179. Wrong. Being genetically prone to weight gain also makes you prone to being diabetic

A life of constant dieting does nothing but make the problems worse.

[eridani]

178. If dieting doesn't work for mildly overweight people, why should it work for the extremely fat?

Most of them got that way by pushing a genetic tendency to weight gain by constant yoyo dieting. Many find that when they just give up, their weight at least stabilizes. As one member once put it "I had to take up fat acceptance, because I just couldn't afford to gain any more weight."

[El Pinko]

183. "constant yoyo dieting" - that is an oxymoron.

Yoyo dieting means going on crash/fad diets, losing weight, then going back to old eating habits, regaining weight, then repeating the cycle. It's INTERMITTENT, not CONSTANT.

Obviously this is a very destructive pattern.

But if people stayed on a CONSTANT regimen of just the right amount of calories of healthy, nutrient rich foods for their frame - on a PERMANENT basis, they would have much better results.

Problem is the notion of a "diet" as being something temporary to achieve a goal. Permanent lifestyle changes with the goal of gradual weight loss and maintaining healthy weight are the only way to go, and the only thing that works.

[eridani]

185. "Sensible" diets don't necessarily produce significant weigh loss

Having specific weight loss goals is so unredeemably stupid it's hard to imagine anybody even marginally rational advocating them.

I'm going to lose X pounds!
I'm going to bench press 350 pounds!
I'm going to run a sub three hour marathon!
I'm going to start making more insulin right now!
I'm going to start making more serotonin and just cheer up!

All of those are (unless maybe you are an elite athlete) completely deranged as goals. If you focus on actions rather that goals, your chances of success are far better.

I'm going to use the stairs at work instead of the elevator.
I'm going to bring nutritious snacks and not use the vending machine.
I'm going to go to the health club and do something three times a week.
I will learn the glycemic index of the foods I most commonly eat.
Treadmill 15 minutes a day, at whatever speed.

And you need to drop the assumption that any of these changes will result in significant weight loss. Might happen. Might not. Totally out of your contro.

[El Pinko]

187. It worked for me to the tune of 100 lbs...

...but I'm sure it was all water weight.

(inevitable reply)

eridani: "You'll probably regain all of it and then some, like 95% of all dieters!

me: I'm not a "dieter".

[eridani]

197. It didn't work for hundreds of thousands of others

Quit being snotty

[El Pinko]

188. dupe - delete

nt

[AZBlue]

214. Where does it say that? Please point that out.

Because all I see is information on dieting smartly and an organization that fights discrimination and prejudice against those who are fat right now.

[Fox Mulder]

37. I wouldn't call it "fat acceptance"...

I'd call it accepting people for who they are and treating them with respect.

[Jack_DeLeon]

39. I dont think it should be about "fat" I think it should be about "health."

I'm a bit overweight, and I'm working to improve my health and make myself a stronger person in all aspects. I personally dont care how other people choose to take care of themselves as long as it doesnt affect me or those I care about.

That being said if we are going to be working towards "nationalized" health care, I'm personally not thinking its the right answer but something needs to be done about healthcare, if we are going to do that then we will need regulations so that people who choose to be unhealthy dont have thier burden passed on to the rest of us.

[Iris]

49. I don't think fat acceptance is progressive if it means overlooking the causes of the obesity

epidemic in this country. For example, if companies want to add corn syrup to every product they make and there's a correlation between that and the increase in obesity, is it progressive to just say "Let the companies do whatever they want to make a profit"?

[ismnotwasm]

72. Now THAT is an excellent point

I feel describing what "fat acceptance" is, has a lot to do with schematics. To me, fighting cruelity, or not being cruel to others is a very progressive issue. Ignoring root causes of unhealthy eating habits and as you say, blind acceptance of what companies do with food--and high fructose corn syrup additives is a great example--not progressive at all

[Iris]

85. Thanks!

I feel a little smarter now!

Of course, there are lots of subjects we talk about on DU that have nuances that don't seem to make it into the conversation. And that's a shame.

[Echo In Light]

54. A textbook example of corporate culture conditioning...

...Irrespective of which side of the Name Brand parties you identify with.

[Sheets of Easter]

55. We need to be more accepting of body image as a whole.

But fatness for the sake of being fat, that's a whole other story, and such a thing is rare.

[madmom]

56. Funny I was just discussing this with a co-worker yesterday, she told me a friend

of her's makes too much money to get food stamps, but not enough to really "live" on. She buys healthy food for her two kids, but because it's so expensive she munches at work (fast food) so they will have enough, and she has gained 30 lbs. in just a couple months. Healthy food is very expensive, I recently started going low carb because of health issues I was shocked at how much more my grocery bill was.

[pink-o]

70. Heathly foods ARE more expensive...

I live mostly on fruits and vegetables, some whole grains, eggs and soy for protein, and organic dairy just cuz I love it. I also believe in the powers of Red Wine, and I'm addicted to caffeine (in the form of non-fat caffe lattes). I don't buy any other foods at the grocery store, so I walk out with 70 dollars worth of stuff that barely fills one bag, whereas the person in line behind me has an overflowing cart for that price. But Hamburger Helper, Easy Mac and frozen mystery cusine is gonna come back to bite us all!

Think of healthy food as an investment in your future. You're paying more now, but if you keep up your lifestyle, you won't have to pay Big Pharma 300 dollars a month for blood pressure drugs, digitalis, or insulin shots.

As for the topic at hand, I've been a size 18 and 190 pounds (being a vegetarian doesn't mean you're gonna end up skinny--most of the crap foods are processed plant-based snacks) I'm now a size 10 and weigh 155 (I'm a 6'1" tall woman). I can only tell you, life is better when you're your right weight. Not just for social acceptance, but because you really feel amazing. I have a lot of energy, I can run and bike for miles, and it just gives me a great sense of freedom. It opens my options, because I can jump on the bike instead of paying 4.50 a gallon for gas. My sister, who weighs 400 pounds, can't do the same thing. She's stuck with the high gas prices.

Everyone needs to make their own choices, and I'm not gonna fault those who didn't have the nutritional education I did, who have been fooled by the diet industry, et al. There's a lot of money invested in keeping Americans fat, lazy, suseptible to advertising, and dependent on food and drugs. The System's tactics are slimy and deceptive: blaming fat people is blaming the victim.

OT: I've read some of the posters who equate this issue with smoking, but there's one HUGE difference I haven't seen addressed. Fat people don't affect my ability to carry on with my life. Smokers defile my environment, pollute my air, maybe even put me at risk (see Dana Reeve, nightclub singer, a non-smoker who died of lung cancer). I'm fine with smoking in one's own car or home--or designated areas outdoors--but smokers need to keep that poison away from me.

[mvccd1000]

57. I sure don't like getting stuck next to them on the plane! :)

And I have a hard time understanding why anyone would want to let their body go to such an extent.

My dad is extremely obese, and it saddens me. Doesn't make me love him any less, but I sure wish he'd lose some of it so I get to enjoy his company for a lotta years to come. His diabetes is increasing in severity in direct proportion to his weight gain. He says he's too busy to exercise (owns his own business), but I'm afraid he's killing himself by neglect.

I guess I can accept fat people, but I have a hard time respecting them.

[Bettie]

143. Trust me, they don't like getting stuck next to you either.

There is nothing worse than being forced to sit next to someone who looks at you as if you are a carrier of typhoid because you are larger than the norm.

Frankly, with most airline seats, my butt isn't the problem in fitting in...its my shoulders which happen to be wider than most women's. So, if I am unfortunate enough to have to fly, either I stuff myself into a corner and try very hard not to touch or even make eye contact with anyone who might be offended by my very existence or I make sure I'm flying with my husband and the two of us sit together. Oh and he's not a fat guy and HE barely fits in standard airline seats!

[AZBlue]

215. I guess I can accept hateful people who are prejudiced & condescending, but I have

a hard time respecting them.

God help you if I ever sit next to you on a plane - no matter what size I am.

[raccoon]

58. Some meds cause weight gain. Just remember that. nt

[dembotoz]

59. we should be

but often we are not

[electron_blue]

65. What do you mean by "fat acceptance"?

[frickaline]

67. The root of the question here is: Is it a choice to be fat?

I believe the answer is a rather complicated one.

In cases where people choose to be fat or are just lazy, I don't accept. In cases where its not their choice (maybe medication or something) or where they are not all that overweight, I would accept.

However, I think this is more than a beauty standards issue. It impacts health, healthcare, and the economy.

[eridani]

180. Being gay is every bit as much of a choice as being fat

If your orientation is same-sex, you have the option to choose living entirely without sex and love. If you don't choose that, being gay is your fault.

If you have metabolic Syndrome X or any of a number of other conditions, you can choose to make maintaining an approximately average weight by recreating the conditions of hard labor on semi-starvation diets your main life's work. And if you refuse to do that, being fat is your fault.

[El Pinko]

182. That's really not true. Gay sex is a choice, but gay attraction is not.

"If you have metabolic Syndrome X or any of a number of other conditions, you can choose to make maintaining an approximately average weight by recreating the conditions of hard labor on semi-starvation diets your main life's work. And if you refuse to do that, being fat is your fault."

Not everyone would describe eating a calorie-controlled diet as quite the nightmarish gulag you have, but yes, that is true. It is a personal choice.

But "semi-starvation" diets (1000-1200 cal) are usually counterproductive. A healthy diet is 1500-2000 cal for (most) women, 2000-2500 cal for (most) men. Most Americans eat a lot more than that, thus most Americans are overweight. Some people can eat 3000 cal per day and not gain weight. They seem lucky, but it often catches up with them later.

A big part of the problem is the assumption by many people that they should be able to eat the Standard American Diet and not be overweight. The Standard American Diet has been PROVEN to make about 66% of the people who eat it overweight. So why is it still considered a "normal" diet?

Ditch the S.A.D., switch to fewer total calories, composed of whole foods, without the TV dinners, instant crap and other processed foods (including those that say "diet"), and 99% of people would be in much better shape. Even if they don't hit the "ideal BMI", they would still be much healthier and feel better.

[eridani]

186. "They would still be much healthier and feel better"

Exactly!!!!! Then why the fuck talk about weight AT ALL?!?!?!

[El Pinko]

189. The excess weight is a problem in itself when it gets too high and some people just let it go...

"The right weight" is different for each person and highly subjective, but if a person is walking around (or bedridden) with 35, 45, 55% body fat, they are committing slow suicide.

Why talk about it? Because somebody asked whether the disease-enabling group naafa is "progressive". I say it is not.

Body acceptance - accepting different shapes and sizes is great, but naafa is about acceptance of morbid obesity, and that's far from progressive.

[eridani]

196. NAAFA has gotten more fat people into exercising--

--than you will have ever done with 10,000 posts of snotty moralizing. Fat people who take those exercise classes find it extremely difficult to find other venues where they feel as psychologically safe when they get back home. What have you ever done personally about that little problem?

Most extremely fat people would never have gotten to where they are now had their families and the media health nazis just left them the fuck alone when they were still 250 instead of 500.

[El Pinko]

199. Sorry, but I respectfully disagree - exercising alone is not enough.

The overeating has to end - and the Standard American Diet is an overeating regimen.

I have done no moralizing. It has nothing to do with morals, ethics or character.

I agree that the supermarket mags with their fad diets have done a great deal of harm pushing unhealthful crash/fad diets.

As for "media health nazis" - I assume you're talking about media when they disseminate the massive amounts of medical evidence that obesity cuts years or decades off lives, and that limiting portions and consistent light exercise can reduce body fat, improve health, and reduce high cholesterol, and even pre-diabetic conditions? You complain about those who would blame the obese for being overweight, but then you blame their woes on the media?

Whatever.


If NAAFA is providing a place where obese people can exercise without embarrassment, then I salute them for that. I don't think everything they say and do is wrong, but their steadfast stance against any kind of portion control and caloric reduction goes against mainstream medical knowledge, as well as common sense.

Anyway, if you're a little heavy and happy that way - great!

If you're morbidly obese and content with it, well I think it's sad that you may not be with us as long you could be, and a shame that you've confused eating sensibly with crash diets and given up on changes in diet to improve your health.

[eridani]

200. They've mostly had portion control imposed on them externally from infancy

That's how they got to be fat in the first place--from the inevitable biological backlash against externally imposed hunger. There is no conceivable way for them to learn to pay attention to natural satiety cues without telling everyone in their public environment to go straight to hell for awhile.

Nobody is content with being morbidly obese. The decision to just live with it is almost always a decision to avoid gaining even more weight by continuing the patterns that got them there.

I'm not what is called morbidly obese, but the only reason for that is that I was lucky enough to be exposed to anti-dieting in the early 70s before I dieted myself up to that level. What you call "portion contol" I call eating little enough so that hunger distracts me from being able to do complex paid work. I'm mid-sized fat, and the reason for that is that I inherited the genetics that leads to both diabetes and weight gain in adulthood from my grandmother through my father, and I live in a society where there is enough to eat and most work is sedentary. Biking a few miles to work does not counteract that enough to have an effect on my weight--it merely keeps my a1c levels below 7. Fine by me, considering that when my grandmother was my age, she'd been dead for nine years.

If you are born diabetic, you are diabetic regardless of whether you ever develop symptoms before dying from something else. Success in controlling your blood sugars absolutely, in no way whatsoever, makes you non-diabetic.

[RadiationTherapy]

69. I will never "accept" my fat which comes from eating too many calories

and not expending enough.

I also expect my wife and I to maintain physical appeal within our own, privately held, standards.

Neither of us has any medical reasons to be overweight. We are overworked and overscheduled like most overweight people. When I see someone who is in exceptional shape, I think that person has too much time on their hands or has image problems.

[AZBlue]

216. Wow. What's it like to be perfect?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

73. It typically does not take much to affect someones health!

Most people perceived as fat in our society are probably outside the healthy range if not to the degree of immediate danger to the point where they will have serious problems as they age..

[hyphenate]

79. Being overweight all my life

I know what it's like to hear certain kinds of remarks. Some people are very healthy despite their weight, others not so much.

I recall one asshole doctor whose pot belly could have held a couple of 2 year old kids inside him, who was telling me to lose weight in order to get rid of my bad knee. A friend of mine, who was very thin had the exact kind of knee injury, and she got a full work-up in comparison.

If doctors themselves can't respect their overweight and obese patients, it's certain that no one else will.

I know a lot of people become militant about the subject, but that isn't exactly the way it can be fought against--there needs to be far better education on the issue, and people need to learn simple respect for others.

Some people have a great problem in losing weight, and many of them do struggle with chronic illnesses related to the extra weight. These problems exacerbate the weight and the ability to lose it, and most people don't understand.

Some people look at those who are overweight or obese as insecure or inferior--they believe that overeating is the main reason people are large, and not being in control of their diet leads them to be fat and lazy. It's not true, and there is a lot of presumption on the subject. But it's one of those subjects that really needs to be discussed extensively.

[CK_John]

81. Wait until there are food riots and massive shortages and ask me then about

pro-fat accpetance.

[MadHound]

83. I'm not going to fail to accept an individual because they're fat

However the collective numbers of fat people I find to be a serious manifestation of disorder. It shows that we, as a society are becoming too lazy, eating crap food(by choice or not), and in general it is simply another symptom of what is wrong with our society. As such, collectively, no, I don't accept the quantity of overweight people in our society. We need to do some things in order to correct this trend, you know, basics, like getting out and getting active, and eating healthier.
So individually yes, I accept fat people and think nothing of them. Collectively however, it's a different story.

[lumberjack_jeff]

84. I accept everyone's right to be fat. What more do you want?

If you're looking for genuine approval, probably not.

For the purposes of this discussion "Fat" = obese, not simply overweight.

[RedCappedBandit]

88. I'm not about to treat anybody differently..

than I would treat anyone else because of their physical appearance. However, I can't help but think its pretty irresponsible to let yourself become/remain obese if it is within your capacity to change the situation. If you really don't care.. more power to you.. but I think the trend in general is unhealthy :shrug:

[LeftyMom]

89. Is cancer acceptance a progressive issue?

LeftyKid's quasi-stepmom (his Dad's long term GF, they can't get married because he can't afford to be responsible for half of her medical bills) is eating herself to death right now. She's lost 70 lbs because of her diabetes, but she's so big you can't tell by looking- it only brought her down to 380, and she's 5'4" or so. She's got a pacemaker, she has diabetes, her legs are covered in open sores that do not respond to treatment and may eventually require amputation of her legs below the knee, and all of this is a function of her enormous overweight caused by bad diet and essentially no physical activity. It's getting worse now, because she's become too fat to walk, even answering the door leaves her bent over (to the minimal extent that somebody that big can) like she's just run a marathon.

Fat is killing her. She's only 37.

At this rate, she may not see 40. 45 or 50 is pretty damned unlikely.

And her doctors are willing to carve her open, fill her body with machines and put her on more pills than the average hospital ward, but nobody ever told her how to eat to prevent this. Nobody's ever sat her down and said that she needs to lose some weight or she's going to die. She's been referred to every medical specialist under the sun, but no doctor ever sent her to a nutritionist, had her keep a food diary, suggested a cookbook or a cooking class or even given her a one page pamphlet on healthy eating.

Acceptance of her obesity as a part of her, and not as a disease that is well on it's way to killing her, does her no favors. Failing to even present her with dietary strategies to reverse or at least delay her further weight gain and physical decline- accepting her obesity as inevitable and unchangeable- is killing her, and quickly.

Fat acceptance is a deadly lie.

[El Pinko]

106. I'm with you on this one...

My grandmother - my mother's mom - died at age 47 from a massive heart attack. In her youth she was a stunning beauty by all accounts, but after having two daughters, she fell into a depression and ate constantly, and nothing my mom or her father could do would stop her. She became morbidly obese and diabetic (this was in the 50s) and it eventually killed her.

Because of what happened to my grandmother, my grandfather (who was an opthalmologist) became rather obsessive about his and his daughters' diets. Even when I was a kid and we went to visit him, she would have my mom step on the scale to make sure she was eating right. Unfortunately, his strictness backfired with my mom, and she rebelled by eating butter pats off restaurants tables and cookie dough from the tube. Once he died, her eating habits got worse, going back and forth from binging on junk to crash diets. But eventually, she was able to become more moderate in her eating habits. She's still a bit overweight, but not bad for an American approaching 70.

But I think my family's case shows both sides of this argument. Morbid obesity is a killer. It is not something people can live with and be healthy.

But at the same time, having other people cajole or chastise them all the time about their eating is not always the best thing for an overweigh person.

I know I didn't get my weight down until *I* was ready to do it. No amount of nagging from my wife would make me do it, and in fact, I often ate more to spite her.


Overeating is not all that different from alcoholism. There is definitely a "high" you get after a big meal, and you just don't get that dazed, post-thanksgiving high from healthy portions. Those of us who were raised with "clean your plate" and lots of processed junk have been conditioned to want that HIGH. I don't like NAAFA because they don't want obesity cured. But I don't like people that judge fat people or put them down, either.

[AlCzervik]

114. That is really awful.

and thanks for sharing that story.

[New Dawn]

148. Thank you for sharing,

And I agree that we should not trick ourselves into believing that obesity is healthy.

[eridani]

190. Wrong. It's caused by being genetically diabetic

The above is from my HMO newsletter. Unfortunately they haven't yet gotten up the nerve to state the obvious conclusion--being prone to type II diabetes causes obesity. It is inevitable if you live in a society where there is enough to eat and most work is sedentary. Being careful of foods with high glycemic index and being as active as you have the time to be can postpone the condition and help you manage it better if you don't die of something else before becoming symptomatic.

It is such a common condition ( ~30% of the population, though much less in coastal regions) because it is beneficial under the conditions of periodic semistarvation that have obtained throughout most of human history. Women prone to type II tend to be more likely to have babies weighing 10 lbs or more--but that's in our society where we ususally have enough to eat. Under conditions of semistarvation, women like that are more likely to be able to give birth to normal-sized babies, and they will not be very much fatter than the average.

My HMO in fact never advocates weight loss for cases like this--they focus on behaviors you can change, like being more active and watching the glycemic index of food you eat. An unwillingess to do those things is NOT "fat acceptance." It certainly is a mental problem, but being constantly harassed because of her weight won't help her to overcome it. And if she had been doing these things all along, she would still be diabetic even if temporarily symptom-free, just as someone who has PKU but has avoided brain damage because of a low phenylalanine diet during the critical years still has PKU. She'd likely weigh less, but still be fat.

[LeftyMom]

205. Nobody else in her family is diabetic.

Of course, nobody else in her family is 5'4" and 375, either. She does not have any comorbid diagnosis, like PCOS, that could lead to both. She only showed symptoms of diabetes after her weight started spinning out of control (she stopped taking care of herself during a depressive episode and put on a lot of weight.)

And her obesity is an enormous obstacle both to treatment and to improve health generally (how the hell is she supposed to increase her activity level when she can't haul her own weight around without assistance?) Did I mention that she got a pacemaker at 36? A weak heart can't manage all of the extra work created by her being twice the size of a healthy woman.

Anything other than aggressive treatment of her obesity is consigning this woman to a very early death, and no professional has said a thing to her about healthy eating, and there's a lot of room for very easy improvement in her diet. Everybody's just accepted the inevitability of her interwoven heart condition, diabetes and morbid obesity killing her very young.

[eridani]

206. How the hell would they know?

Absence of symptoms does not mean absence of underlying genetics. My father wasn't diagnosed until he was 59. If he had died before that in a car wreck or something, that would have made me someone supposedly without a family history of diabetes. It is not possible to be diabetic without the underlying genetics. The inertness and general inactivity associated with depression is of course a perfectly logical environmental trigger.

Needing a pacemaker has nothing whatsoever to do with weight. It's an electrochemical problem, period. That is unfortunate, because it really limits her activity, far more so than her weight. Aggressive treatment of obesity is probably the worst thing to do for diabetics. Being careful of the glycemic indexes of food helps, as would very carefully supervised exercise. All kinds of studies indicate that you get instant improvement in sugar control well before any weight loss that might occur, and that the amount of weight loss (anywhere from nothing at all to 50 pounds) is irrelevant to obtaining the benefits.

If people who have the much more severely limiting condition of congestive heart failure can do chair aerobics, why shouldn't she be able to?

http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/sandstedt/Prescription.shtml

[cynatnite]

90. Human acceptance should be at the top of the list...

:eyes:

Geez, pro-fat? Are you kidding me? You're okay with it unless it severely impacts their health...and then what? F*** them?

Let's just treat people like we'd want to be treated...okay?

[Klukie]

91. I am fat and I don't accept it .....

so how can I expect others to?

[lonestarnot]

95. My ass is fat, and I am not accepting of it.

:P

[dysfunctional press]

102. fat people are disgusting, and they need to learn how to lead more healthful lives

imho.

you asked, i answered.

[krabigirl]

103. wow.

[El Pinko]

107. I think mean people are a lot more disgusting.

I was one of those people.

Now I'm at a very healthy weight, I "learned how to live a more healthful life".

Comments like yours are disgusting. How many fat people have offed themselves because of cruel comments like that?

How many of them have had all sense of self-worth destroyed?


It is a health problem, and a form of addiction. It's not like these people are out spray-painting on walls or holding up liquor stores.

They (We) just have a disordered relationship with food.

They can't just " eat right" without a thought like a lot of thin people can. it takes lifelong vigilance to maintain a large weight loss.

[dysfunctional press]

113. you're entitled to your opinion...as am i.

and in my honest opinion- fat people are disgusting and need to live more healthful lives.

maybe the high prices for food and gas might make some of them finally find a way to eat less and walk more. if so, the higher prices might be a major benefit to society after all.

[lonestarnot]

115. anorexia much?

[dysfunctional press]

116. nope. but i see plenty of people on a daily basis who should probably give a trial run.

i keep hearing how the u.s. has 5% of the world's population- but i'm guessing that we probably have at least 25% of the world's body fat.

[lonestarnot]

120. And why do you suppose that would be true?

[eridani]

191. I'm a multiple substance abuser myself

Not only am I addicted to food, I'm addicted to oxygen and water as well. Can't seem to help myself here at all.

[Scout]

139. fat or thin, your post makes you sound like you are pretty disgusting n/t

[dysfunctional press]

154. but yours screams "judgementally challenged"...

and everyone is entitled to their opinions.

[AZBlue]

217. Oh geez, not you again. Weren't you ts'd?

[krabigirl]

104. I am for letting people live their lives as they wish.

Also, many people are on anti-depressants which make them gain tons of weight. My best friend is one of them. Exercise doesn't do squat.

As for me, I'm 10 lbs overweight, but pregnant again, as I didn't lose all of the old baby weight from a year ago. I was a (gasp!) size 8 instead of my old 6. I got pregnant as I was still working hard on losing the weight. My OB acts like I'm seriously unhealthy, even though I exercise and have low blood pressure. I'll just lose the weight, I tell her. I couldn't imagine if I'd gone to her over 10 lbs overweight.

Now I'm obsessed with my weight, and afraid to eat even though pregnant. I do, but it's pretty sad.

[Time for change]

105. In order to discuss this, it's important to understand what is meant by "pro-fat acceptance"

If we mean by that term whether fat people should not be discriminated against, then certainly the answer is yes.

With respect to health issues, certainly being severely overweight is a serious health issue. Believing that does not mean that one is not tolerant or not progressive. It is a medical fact.

With regard to beauty standards, that is a very subjective issue. We all have different opinions of what we consider beautiful. I don't feel that I have much or any control over what I consider beautiful. In that sense, I don't consider it a political issue at all. And if someone feels that fat is not beautiful, that doesn't mean that they are not progressive, rather it just has to do with how they perceive beauty.

This is an over-simplification, of course. There are many other potential issues involved in this.

Having said all that, I should also mention that I have conducted a fair amount of research on this issue during my preventive medicine residency, and what I found is that weight is to a very large extent, contrary to popular opinion (and even contrary to much medical opinion), genetically determined. That doesn't mean that with a great amount of will power people with genes for obesity can't overcome their genetics and become normal weight. But they virtually have to starve themselves to do that, and they have to continue doing that to maintain a normal weight (Though there are some treatments that can help out, but that is a long story). I would never want to criticize anyone for their weight.

[BlooInBloo]

118. Even if it WERE under one's control to determine what's attractive to the person....

... One is under no moral obligation to regard big/obese/whatever-the-preferred-word-is people as sexy - for oneself.

[distantearlywarning]

119. It's not about sexy.

It's about being treated like a human being.

For instance, I personally don't think guys with really short hair are attractive. So I date the long-haired ones. It's no big deal, it's how the world works. Everybody dates the people they think are sexy, and don't date the ones that aren't.

But just because I don't think short-haired guys are sexy doesn't mean that I fail to treat any of the short-haired men I meet in the world with respect. I don't stigmatize them, I don't make fun of them, and I don't assume anything about them based on their hair choices in life.

[Missy Vixen]

123. Oh, now you've dinged my dinger

>weight is to a very large extent, contrary to popular opinion (and even contrary to much medical opinion), genetically determined. That doesn't mean that with a great amount of will power people with genes for obesity can't overcome their genetics and become normal weight.<

Let's talk about this, shall we? Weight is genetically determined, but you believe that others can overcome their genetic programming and lose weight. Interesting. How much success do you think anyone would have with "overcoming" other genetic programming like baldness, hair or eye color, etcetera? How about height? The only things that will fix any of these are temporary at best. One can color their hair, visit the eye doctor for contacts or buy a toupee. Are these permanent solutions?

Why do you think that a body programmed by genetics to use food in a different manner (which has been proven and re-proven among those who lose more than thirty pounds; ninety-five percent of those who lose weight regain it within a five-year period,) can be regulated by nothing more than "willpower"? Have you ever met anyone who's fat? If it was all about willpower, we'd all be THIN. Period.

I'm amused by the comments of those on this thread who can't wait to spew their hatred, disdain and bigotry towards the fat. Thank God they won the genetic lottery, huh? There isn't much difference between this crowd and those at FR. After all, it's all about bullying from behind your keyboard, isn't it?

Julie

[BlooInBloo]

125. How come asians of the various flavors are approx. 2000% more likely to be overweight...

... upon hitting American shores? Does America change their genes?

[distantearlywarning]

129. Does America change their personality and character?

When they were in Japan or China or Korea they had lots of willpower and moral fiber, but as soon as they hit American shores they all became lazy and started stuffing themselves uncontrollably until they ballooned up like little pigs?

If America isn't changing genetic material, and it isn't changing fundamental human character, what about American society is responsible for this statistic you quoted? THAT'S the million dollar question we need to be asking ourselves as a society. And we are never going to get around to asking that question in a serious way so long as we spend all of our time in thought about obesity thinking about how morally superior the thin people are to the fat ones.

[BlooInBloo]

133. Moral fiber? lolol - what does obesity and/or one's eating habits have to do with moral fiber?

But the idea that people's behavior and outlook don't change with their environment is just asinine.

[distantearlywarning]

149. Some people on DU think it's about character (see post #140 for an excellent example)

Is that the same thing as "behavior and outlook"?

And if an environment is a major causal factor in changes in "behavior and outlook", is it then reasonable to expect individuals to be the sole causal factor in changing their "behaviors and outlook" back to their previous states with no concurrent change in environment?

[Time for change]

126. Dupe

[AlCzervik]

130. i think it is possible but it takes time.

it's taken me almost 3 years to lose 90 pounds and i'm actually glad it's taken so long because it's been an education for me, i was really unhealthy and i felt like crap all the time so i just going and started doing some research about what were better choices. It's been a long road but i think i'll be able to maintain this loss, i have to.

[Time for change]

141. It takes time, and it's extremely difficult

Losing 90 pounds is quite a feat. Congratulation :toast:

I'm glad you're feeling better.

[AlCzervik]

150. for real, i have never felt better in my life and thank you.

i am 5 pounds away from the goal i set and my weight is finally in the the healthy range.

[Time for change]

127. Dupe

[Time for change]

128. All I said was that it is POSSIBLE to overcome the genetic programming for weight

I did not say that anyone is morally obligated to do it or even that they should try.

But there can be no question that it is POSSIBLE.

What is there to talk about? Do you deny that it is possible?

[Missy Vixen]

131. Explain to me how it is possible to "overcome genetics"

when the bodies of those who are pre-programmed to obesity have been shown repeatedly to metabolize food differently.

How many calories a day will those folks be able to eat to "maintain" the weight loss? It'll be well below the 1500-1800 calorie per day norm. Then again, they'll be socially acceptable, won't they? If the fat are so goddamn desperate that they will subject themselves to weight loss surgery that has a 1 in 200 mortality rate, why do you think that any fat person would choose to remain so if the weight would disappear with a bit more "willpower"?

Again: Do you know any fat people? Please don't lecture us on "willpower" till you've walked a mile in our shoes.

Julie

[Time for change]

132. You're the one who's lecturing, not me

Did you hear me make any criticisms? Why don't you pick a fight with all the people who actually criticize overweight people before starting in on me?

If you don't have enough intelligence to know how it's possible for an overweight person who is programmed to be overweight to overcome the programming to lose weight, I'm not going to waste more of my time with you trying to explain it.

[Missy Vixen]

134. Hey, TFC

You haven't answered any of my points. Before you insult my intelligence, you may want to look into the (numerous) studies stating that weight is genetically determined. You might also want to check out Glenn Gaessers' work in this area.

>If you don't have enough intelligence to know how it's possible for an overweight person who is programmed to be overweight to overcome the programming to lose weight, I'm not going to waste more of my time with you trying to explain it.<

You're a doctor, and you're advocating that people can simply "overcome" their genetic disposition and their own metabolism? The thirty-three billion dollar a year weight loss industry is based on faulty logic like the above.

Julie

[Time for change]

136. Can you read?

I said in my first post on this thread that weight is mostly genetically determined, so I don't need any lectures from you that it's genetically determined, ok?

But it is not COMPLETELY genetically determined. Anyone who believes that is a raging idiot.

I said that it is POSSIBLE to overcome one's genetic disposition to lose weight. I didn't "advocate it", as you say. Do you understand the difference?

So I would appreciate it if you would stop making up words to put in my mouth.

Oh, and the way a person would lose weight to overcome their genetic disposition to be overweight is to eat very few calories. It is POSSIBLE to do that. But I am not ADVOCATING it. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Why don't you try doing something productive with your life other than twisting other peoples' words around. You are one of the most manipulative jerks I've ever had a discussion with.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

157. Hello doctor, one more issue. Metabolic disorders.

Metabolism.

There are lots of metabolic disorders. I am not a doctor, so I don't know about many of them.

However, some of them are common and affect many women. Specifically, hypothyroidism, which is said to affect 30 MILLION Americans, and polycystic ovary disease.

I have had Hashimoto's disease (hypothyroidism) since I was 12 years old and have to ARGUE with my doctor to get ENOUGH thyroid medication. The doctors refuse to treat to symptoms, such as subnormal temp, cold hands and feet, extreme fatigue, etc. They only look at the almighty blood tests. A lot of doctors tell women they are just depressed, or it's psychosomatic, and give them SSRI's to take. I took the normal dosage for over ten years, and I was still exhausted all the time. I came home from school and crashed for three hours every weekday afternoon, and slept 12 hours a day every weekend.
And I was a teenager!!! Teenagers are supposed to have energy!!

I have to argue to get Armour natural thyroid, because the drug companies brainwash the doctors into believing it is ineffective. It's cheap and effective -- drug companies don't like that!!!

Obesity is due to many different things - lack of exercise, stress, eating junk food, not exercising -- and also metabolic disorders. On a previous thread about fat people, some non-doctor estimated the number of people with metabolic problems at 1 percent. He was wrong.

I was on a medically supervised low-calorie diet and couldn't lose more than about ten pounds. I gave that up. Stomach stapling wouldn't work either, due to my slow metabolism.

More information on mad hypothyroid patients and their tangles with the medical community: www.stopthethyroidmadness.com

I think we could all use more compassion as well as more education on obesity.


The people who say "go for a walk every day" or "buy healthy food" are not aware of a lot of conditions in peoples' lives that vary widely. For example, I couldn't go for a walk every day, outdoors, because I live in the South where the heat and humidity are unhealthy for about 5 to 6 months out of the year. I'll have to join a YMCA anyway.

Those people are the same ones who say "bicycle to work" or "Don't shop at Wal-Mart" or "buy your food at Trader Joe's" and think everybody else has the same choices they do.

Compassion and education.

When I look at a fat person, I don't know if they eat too much, don't exercise, or have a metabolic disorder. It's not for me to judge. I'm a fat person myself, and I have a very small appetite.

[Time for change]

159. Yes. Obesity itself is a metabolic disorder

My daughter appears to have the same type of thyroid problem that you have. She asked me to order her Armour Thyroid because her doctor wouldn't order it for her, and her thyroid tests were only borderline. I had never been exposed to Armour Thyroid in medical school, and I have been out of private clinical medicine for many years (I'm in public health, currently working for the FDA). But I looked it up and ordered it for my daughter, and she has felt much since she started taking it.

A lot of doctors don't understand that there is a lot of medical knowledge out there that never makes it into medical school. I don't know exactly why that it, except to say that nothing works perfectly. But some adopt the attitude that if it wasn't covered in medical school that it has to be quackery -- and that is far from the truth.

I learned in medical school that obesity had nothing to do with genetics. But I found out by doing research on it during my medical residency that obesity is very largely determined by genetic factors (and medical thinking has changed on this too, as research on the subject is finally making it into widely read medical journals).

One thing that many people who are genetically programmed for obesity have found helpful is a diet that is extremely low in carbohydrate but otherwise theoretically unlimited in calories. What a radically low carbohydrate diet does is to change a person's metabolism to reset the hypothalmus (which is like a thermostat that controls weight) to produce a much lower weight. Some people find it difficult, however, because of the diet's lack of variety. Those diets can be expensive too.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

166. Interesting that you were not told about Armour in med school.

Armour thyroid is made from dessicated pig or sheep glands. It's a byproduct of the slaughterhouse, and it's cheap. It also has both T3 and T4, unlike Synthroid. I don't understand all the chemistry, but apparently there are several T-factors with numbers from 1 to 8, I think.

One major league endocrinologist I went to said "Armour Thyroid is not regulated in dosage. You never know how much active hormone you will get in a pill".

I said, "I read the label. It says 'United States Pharmacopoeia, Biologically assayed'.

Dr. Big Time Endocrinologist shut up.

I went to a doctor once who titrated my dosage by starting at 1 grain, going up gradually to 8 and then coming down to what I felt good at. I think I must have a malabsorption problem. However, back in the old days when Armour was the only treatment available, most people did take four or five grains per day. Nowadays the doctors think that if you take more than 2 grains a day, your head will blow off and you will climb the walls.

When you say obesity is genetically determined, that is interesting because autoimmune disorders are inherited, and Hashimoto's thyroiditis, the most common form of low thyroid, is an autoimmune disorder. My mother got the exact same disease when she was pre-adolescent, and the doctor put her on Armour thyroid way back in 1932 or so.

She used to eat huge amounts of food and got a large belly on her, in her 60s. Later she lost lots of weight and when she passed away she was stick thin.

My doc wants me to go on the South Beach diet. That will not be fun but will be good for me. I have a very small appetite and my mom always nagged me about being a picky eater. I also have some serious food allergies which cause me to feel crummy the next day, after eating those foods. Sometimes I can lose about five pounds, but I seem to get stuck after about ten pounds, and can't lose any more than that.


Mary Shomon, who runs the www.stopthethyroidmadness.com website, has written a book called "The Thyroid Diet". She says that basically, you are gonna have to bust your ass for an HOUR a day, every day to lose any weight.


I'm glad your daughter is feeling better on Armour. I refuse to take the synthetic stuff. The people who make Synthroid were sued for falsifying their clinical trials. Synthroid was not nearly as effective as they claimed.

[eridani]

192. He means like if you are gay you are able to choose not to have a sex life

Theoretically, it's possible for the genetically fat-prone to force themselve to live a hard-labor third world life on a semi-starvation diet for their entire lives. A very few people actually do this. One GP asked one of his patients who had lost 200 lbs and kept it off for 10 years how she did it. Her reply--"It's the only thing I do."

As a matter of reality, most people like her will choose to have real lives.

[Matariki]

164. Contrary to medical opinion? Where are you getting your 'facts'?

It sounds like your opinion, or how you wish things were rather than how they actually are.

From everything I've read (by dietitians anyway) - when people who claim to have bad metabolisms are put into clinical environments where their food intake is strictly regulated, they ALWAYS lose weight. There are *very* few actual exceptions of people who don't lose weight when consuming less calories than they use each day. The real problem is that many people don't have the correct information about what they're eating or what proper portion sizes are.

I want to add that my post has nothing to do with the OP - I think everyone deserves respect and acceptance according to their character - not their weight or any other physical attribute. A person's weight is between themselves and perhaps their Doctor and is none of my business.

What people think of as beautiful or sexy has most likely been taught to them by the culture they live in - and right now our culture is giving the message that impossibly skinny women are 'sexy'.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

168. Do you know what happens during calorie restriction?

When people restrict their calorie intake on a diet, their body will often slow down their metabolism to compensate. It's a reaction to starving.

I was on a highly restricted medically supervised diet, and could only lose about ten pounds, when I needed to lose forty. The doctor got mad at me and thought I was cheating. I wasn't.

The whole idea of going to a diet doctor was a total waste of time and money and effort, because of the metabolic slowdown. I would have been better off using that money to have liposuction done. :shrug:

[El Pinko]

169. That's both true and false.

The optimum # of calories of course varies with each person, but reducing calorie intake does not necessarily slow metabolism. But reducing it by too much can.

In other words - in my case, I was 275 lbs - it took about 3000-3500 calories per day just to maintain that weight.

By reducing that to just under 2000 calories of highly nutritious foods (hardly a starvation diet) I was able to lose 100 lbs in 2 years with only light dumbell work and walking for exercise.

If I had cut it to 1200 - which is what a lot of the medical extreme diets do, I probably still would have lost the weight - maybe even faster, but I would bave put much more stress on my body and been a lot more likely to rebound/refeed.

There's nothing wrong with restricting calories, within reason.

I think that the heavier you are, the more gradually the calorie intake has to be reduced. Too much of a sudden decrease in calories is a huge stress on the body.

The attempt by so many people to "lose weight fast" is a big part of why so many diets fail. In the case of weight loss, slow is better.

And no man should be eating less than 1500 cal, no woman eating less than 1200 cal per day, IMO.

[Matariki]

171. I responded to Perragrande's post before reading yours

I was trying to say the same thing, but you put it so much better.

[eridani]

194. Well, I can make my skin a lot lighter by staying indoors all the time

Doesn't mean that will work for everyone.

[Matariki]

170. What was your time frame?

weeks or months? Losing 40 pounds in a way healthy way, at about a pound a week, could take the better part of a year.

[eridani]

193. If you call semi-permanent starvation "success"

Strict regulation = semistarvation, period. In real life, people rarely maintain it.

[OmahaBlueDog]

124. A lot of people on the other side of the spectrum dislike the fat because...

1. They believe it is solely caused by lack of discipline
2. It drives up their health insurance costs (they're all for health insurance for the rich and healthy

[JackRiddler]

135. This issue prompted one of the biggest threads ever a couple of years ago...

Concerning the "Norbit" ad campaign...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x137471

[digitalbuddha]

140. The majority of fat people are just lazy

It is true that there are some people that just can't help it. Most others have issues that they need to deal with. Telling them it is ok to be fat is not good for them or for anyone, for that matter.

[lonestarnot]

142. and the reason you think your dumb ass can get away with saying shit like this?

[Scout]

146. wow, what a gem you must be! n/t

[Book Lover]

147. Now is that really what the buddha would say? (nm)

[eridani]

198. The majority of snotty people

--think they should get medals for having "superior" genes.

[AZBlue]

218. The majority of prejudiced people are stupid and rude.

[Dukkha]

144. a health issue not a political one

far too many variables contribute to hyper-obesity in America to pinpoint the issue to a single cause.

[Owl]

151. Uh, no... why would it be? Live and let live.

[1620rock]

153. You know, people have a predisposition to dislike anyone who is not like them.

The young hate old geezers, the elderly hate young punks, progressives hate neocons and vise versa, vegans hate meat eaters, meat eaters hate vegans, black vs. white, atheists hate religious nuts, the religious people hate none believers, northerners hate dumb fuck hillbillies, southerners hate damn yankees, and so on and so forth. It's human nature and we must work to change it. One step at a time.

[Jed Dilligan]

155. There's health issues at both ends of the spectrum

The body considered "hot" for women is no healthier for most than an obese body.

Everyone has an ideal weight and for most women it is quite a bit bigger than what is deemed acceptable in our culture. Look at porn from 100 years ago and you'll see what most women are supposed to look like. If they diet and exercise past that weight they are unhealthy.

There are some naturally skinny people, but there are at least as many unnaturally skinny as unnaturally fat women.

[HuffleClaw]

165. not 'FAT' but 'gravitationally gifted' n/t

[New Dawn]

172. There is discrimination against skinny people too.

I can't even count the number of times that I've heard skinny people (especially girls and young women), falsely accused of being "anorexic" or "starving themselves to death." In addition, many people will then try to guilt trip them into gaining wait. This can even take the form of bringing them unwanted servings of food in between meals (this happens to a thin relative of mine at work all the time). Many people observe strict diets in order to maintain a thin weight, and they should not be treated poorly for doing so.

[eridani]

195. The problem is that their behavior is expected to be the norm for all women n/t

[lonestarnot]

202. LOL lived both ends on this deal. Neither one bother me, but for discrimination.

[JackDragna]

203. I'd say both yes, and no.

We should be accepting of all people and try to help them as best we can. At the same time, we must realize a root cause of the obesity epidemic is the overconsumption of food. We use too much of the world's food resources, which creates food shortages elsewhere, results in tons of unneeded waste and pollutes our environment. We should be accepting of fat people, but we need to take steps to reduce consumption and encourage people to be at healthy weights.

[Jamastiene]

209. I, personally, don't care how much someone weighs.

It always perplexes me on television shows when someone sees a crime and can tell the police approximately how much someone weighs. I couldn't do that to save me. I cannot tell how much someone weighs unless they tell me and even then, I'm more likely to ask them why they told me their weight. I could care less about how much someone weighs.

[mdmc]

211. tough one

dealing with it now..