How many white people quit jobs, disown institutions or white friends

[loyalsister]

as soon as they hear racist jokes or obnoxious racist comments?
How many confront friends or people in power?

Who on this board does this every time they encounter any such problem?
If you are white, do you confront your friends on each and every potentially biased statement?
Are you aware of your own?
Or do you think the world is too PC and black people too sensitive?

Does anyone still have friends who are biased? If you have not confronted them or left them, why not?

I ask this of white people, because this question is directed to the majority.

[angstlessk]

1. I have and I do, but my husband is black so I think I notice it more

than I used to before we met. I admit I did not notice it or, maybe it was not aimed at me before I was with him, so I ignored it, since it did not effect me???

[notesdev]

2. Honestly

the only white person I know who is racist is my own mother, and I haven't talked to her in years.

All the racial rhetoric I hear in day to day life are from hispanic supremacists.

[MonkeyFunk]

3. How many white people

are running for President?

I think you need a larger statistical sample.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. Right, two white people who cozy up to racism is too small a sample.

[MonkeyFunk]

70. cozy up to racism?

for saying Wright was over the line?

So I guess Obama is now a racist according to your reasoning.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

102. If I thought Wright were a racist, maybe?

But let's face it, Jeremiah Wright is no Geraldine Ferraro.

[Rockholm]

108. Wright is a racist while Ferraro isn't.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

110. Yeah, right.

And Clinton's going to win the nomination.

:rofl:

[WillowTree]

62. Exactly!

[AndyTiedye]

4. I Don't Tend to Have That Kind of Friends

I did have that kind of grandmother, unfortunately, and her bigotry destroyed my relationship with her.

[sandnsea]

6. Hillary has told racist jokes, McCain's made racist comments

It's a-ok for them. God Damn America.

[aquart]

10. And, in his life, Obama has never made a comment about "white" people?

Or, say, Asian drivers?

EVERY group has a bias toward its own and against the "other."

One of the late nite hosts (Johnny Carson?) once did months of insults that states routinely used for the states that bordered them. I'm a New Yorker. People from Connecticut are snobs and people from New Jersey are industrial waste mutants. So?

BIAS EXISTS. BIGOTRY EXISTS. PEOPLE FEEL HOW THEY FEEL. FOREVER.

What MATTERS is that we NEVER let the law protect or promulgate that bigotry, whether against blacks or hispanics or Asians or "whites."

Insisting that everyone we know be pure of heart and full of love for everyone on earth is just crap. It's a phony goal because it can never be achieved. Meanwhile we neglect the real work that genuinely protects all our citizens.

[loyalsister]

39. I've heard this before.

And, I think this theory of racism is tends to be self serving.

[knitter4democracy]

7. I always try to confront it.

My MIL surprised us last week with a very racist diatribe in public when we took her out to dinner for her birthday. I tried to speak up for the students she was lambasting, and she did change the subject, but I'll probably have to deal with her again on this. I would cut her out of our lives, but she's not my mother, and she's overall a decent grandmother for our children (though I've talked with them about her racism).

I've cut off our college, which is definitely racist (though they claim not to be). They'll never get another dime from us.

[Iris]

22. me, too but apparently I'm delusional

see below.

[Dr Fate]

8. This is a point I've made for months now.

I'm from GA, and if I gave up every friend there who says "the N word"- I would have about 3 friends left.

Not something I'm proud of, just a reality.

BTW- any white Georgian who denies this is either very sheltered or lying.

[Iris]

9. I'll deny it. I don't hear the "n" word EVER and I live in GA and I'm white.

And if I did, there would be no doubt how I felt about it.

I'd rather be friendless than listen to someone use that word.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dr Fate]

16. Maybe it's kind of like that old Eddie Murphy SNL skit.

As soon as she leaves the room, all the white conservatives start acting "normal" again.

[Iris]

20. It probably is because as I've said in my other posts here, if someone said that in front of me,

they'd know I don't want to hear it again.

[Dr Fate]

25. I can believe that, actually. I call it "being in the club."

The white club, that is.

If you are "in the club", then you hear that kind of talk. If you are not, then folks temper their language.

I guess my problem is that I'm a white male with a thick accent who dresses "conservative"- so folks would assume I was "in the club" until I told them otherwise.

I've been comparing this phenom to the Eddie Murphy skit for years.

Can you at least concede that that you know or know of a fairly large amount of people who would not be too offended if they did hear that word or something similar? I can honestly say so.

[Iris]

28. No, I can't concede that because I've structured my life so I won't have to be around that

sort of thing. Even to the point of limiting time with certain family members.

But I do know what you mean about "the club" - the way some people will speak to you in a way that indicates some sort of collusion - like they assume you agree with them because you are white and middle or upper class. When that has happened to me, it's been with strangers, not friends.

[Dr Fate]

31. I was unable to structure my life in such a way- I had to work and go to school in Augusta,,,

But I'm glad you recognize that there is a "club" and that neither of us are a member of it...I guess I paid more attention to their "club" activities that you did...

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

54. You call it a "white club". I call it ignorance, desperation and 'modeling'.

I hear that language, rarely,...even in backwards "dixie land". When it's used,...it's mocking the old or following the lead of "HATE RADIO" gearing towards the village of hate and division.

However, those who repeat the utterances of old are usually unexposed or pledging allegiance to anything that escapes their own desperate lot in life.

I am not familiar with the "white club" you speak of (and apparently have an earnest BELIEF IN) EDIT although I have heard people use words that are offensive and disrespectful and just plain fucking MEAN. I do know of an elitist oil/energy (YUP, "WHITE") power over this country seriously fucking with our belief in ourselves as ONE RACE,...THE HUMAN RACE. It pisses me off. Why should any of us BUY into malignant profiteers' SALE OF HATE?

:shrug:

That aside,...here is what I want to say to you: when a person/poster expresses sensitivity (WHICH IS A TRADEMARK OF RESPECT) to others, no matter their cultural or religious backgrounds,...why confront rather than EMBRACE THEM?

:shrug:

Edited (gawd knows I wouldn't want to assert that I've NEVER heard mean, hateful words in my lifetime)

[Dr Fate]

61. Iris understood exactly what I was saying- which is why we came to a resolution.

And I would agree with you that folks in the "the white club" or whatever we should call it are ignorant and desperate. Call them what you want.

I'm glad you dont hear the code or the out-right slurs anymore-( I still find that hard to believe)- but I heard it in Augusta GA up until I moved 4 years ago- perhaps we can agree that the younger folks (Obama's pet demographic) are indeed trying to get away from it- but we will have to disagree that it is "rare."

Anyway, I'm glad you live in a Southern town where coming in contact with White on Black racism is somehow rare- it must be something new & wonderful.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

72. Please, do not be so bold as to speak on another's behalf.

Please, do not hold yourself out as an authority on humanity.

Please, STOP inserting division where there is expression of reconciliation and unity.

Iris expressed both.

She deserved a hand rather than the club.

But,...nowadays,...assertive American people seem better at using clubs than offering olive branches, I guess,...which, taking a broader view, completely explains WHY this nation is viewed as the proverbial "BAD GUY" around this world. The assertive and powerful JUST HAVE TO BE,...assholes.

[Dr Fate]

74. All you have to do is read our conversation and our final posts to each other below.

Iris and I got along just fine- we even came to one or two agreements-an olive branch as it were....

I apologize to you and to her for all of my character short-commings- but I stand by all the points I made about white-on-black racism in GA- From experience, I dont believe it is as rare as you indicate and we might just have to agree to disagree about that.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

80. I appreciate your admission of standing in a "personal" experience position.

There is more.

You say you moved to a place where "there is more", in so many words.

In my experience, there is more no matter where you live.

In my experience.

[Dr Fate]

Thanks- and it is 30 years of personal experience, not just a few isolated incidents.

And I never said "there is more" where I moved. There is either less racist talk or people are better at hiding it from me- one or the other.

I'm happy to just agree to disagree at his point- b/c I honestly & truly disagree with you that racisim is "rare" in GA. I observed way too much of it to believe that.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

84. That's cause,...

,...you haven't yet severed the cord from an environment you believed represented the whole of reality.

I wish I could be next to you when the cord is severed,...I REALLY DO!!!! :hug:

[Dr Fate]

85. If you say so- maybe I can borrow your magic wand some day.

You know- the one that erases all evidence of racism in the deep South from "the whole of reality."

Keep the faith, baby!

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

88. If you have a mind and a heart mixed with a little imagination and passion,...

,...you will live to witness incredible things.

It's all in how you LOOK at life.

:rofl: Three days ago, I saved a baby Canadian goose from the jaws of a dog. It's sitting here, sounding like a,...squeeky toy, in my lap as I post.

May seem silly to you BUT I APPRECIATE ANY THING NON-DESTRUCTIVE.

:shrug:

A thought, a feeling, a finger, a hand, a wing, a paw,....if meaning to touch rather than torch,...is something to embrace,...in my magic world.

[Dr Fate]

95. Yup- just click your heels together & repeat "there is no racism in the South" over and over.

Keep the faith, baby!

;)

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

41. I am taking a stand for Iris and calling your accusation "complete bullshit",...mean, crappy,...

,...UNTRUE bullshit!!!

It is simply outrageous to accuse anybody of "being in the club" you define as "the white club" if they have EVER heard "that kind of talk".

Pfft.

This lady plainly stated her lines when it comes to offensive RASCIST language and you go after her like SHE IS BAD rather than acknowledge either her RESPECT for others or her COURAGE to oppose those expressing DISRESPECT towards others.

Maybe, you are just really REALLY confused about what it takes to be respectful or about reality or about setting decency limits. But, Iris plainly stated her limits on offensive language and has chosen to limit or eliminate such intolerant people from her life. There is NOTHING wrong with that. NOTHING!

Now, what I ask is this: what is your issue? Why would you attack this lady based upon her expression? WHY?

[Dr Fate]

44. Iris has already agreed with me that I'm right about "the club"- read the whole sub thread.

She even conceded that if she went to Southern GA, she would hear all the racist codes that I listed in post #29.

And no need to defend her- we were having an honest discussion and came to a couple of honest agreements.

If I had said "uses the N word..." and added "...or other racist codes" in the first place- then there would not have been much for anyone to disagree with...

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

50. Twisting relatively rare utterances into "codes" isn't a reflection of reality,...

,...and defining those WHO PAY CLOSE ATTENTION to utterances and language DOES NOT MAKE THEM A MEMBER OF THE "white club".

Moreover, targeting those who are sensitive to social justice is a means to an end OTHER than social justice. IYKWIM,...and you do.

[Dr Fate]

52. We disagree on how "rare" white on black racism in Gerogia is then.

",...and defining those WHO PAY CLOSE ATTENTION to utterances and language DOES NOT MAKE THEM A MEMBER OF THE "white club."

You are right- but I never said this- members of what I call "the white club" are those people who it is "safe" to have racist conversations with.

The codes that I listed in post #29 are not rare conversations at all at your average country club, frat house or "blue-collar" break room in Augusta GA. And yeah- they still even slip in the labels & slurs here and there...

You want to believe it is rare-we all do- but I know from 30 years of experience that it is not.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

73. Maybe, you HUNG with that "white club",...an elitist bunch, while others,...

,...avoided them?

:shrug:

[Dr Fate]

77. Well, I never avoided GA Republicans- I always engaged them in debate.

Then again, in Augusta GA, you cant avoid racist Republicans if you tried- unless you dont work or dont go to school.

Another point about not being able to choose everyone in your family ought to be made too- but you wouldnt call them elitist(too poor & "working class")- just ignorant on race issues.

Like I said, your Southern environment where you encounter no White-on Black racism sounds like something new & wonderful. I envy that experience whether it exists or not.

Go on and keep thinking that racism in GA is "rare"- you seem to have done a good job of sheltering yourself from this hard reality, so I suggest you just keep on doing whatever it is you do.

So you have luckily managed to ignore or avoid widespread racism in AL, while I have seen it, noted it and confronted it in GA- fair enough?

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

86. Republican-registered are not fairly represented,...and grossly incited.

It's a damn shame,...and most (former) republican-registered folks distance themselves from that hate.

Most I've talked to figure there's too damn much "OWNERSHIP" of both the government and the media,...they just haven't quite got their finger on how corporate fascism works.

[AZ Criminal JD]

30. I live in Birmingham and I never hear the N word.

I am white, go to white working class bars and have plenty of friends. I'm not lying. Now, just how are you going to "guarantee it"?. I'm waiting.

[Dr Fate]

33. Its possible that no one says it around you anymore. How long have you lived there?

I lived in Augusta GA and Henderson NC for 30 years and I grew up hearing it and heard it all my life. Maybe it's worse in the small towns- but I'll bet racism is still prevelant enough in bigger cities like Birmingham as well.

I've have heard it in a bar before- but I mostly heard it at work and at school.

Perhaps I should have said "uses the N word or racist code"

I will concede that over the past 10 years or so, people do watch who they say that around a little more-but the code and insinuations are still prevelant- and if we are going to argue that there is not a substantial number of Southern white people who think poorly of black people, then this thread has clearly left reality...

Yeah- if you lived in the South for longer than 5 or 10 years and never heard racist talk- then that is quite a feat. You would have to be very lucky, very sheltered, good at ignoring, or lying.

I'm guessing that I was never as good at ignoring it or denying it as you guys- b/c I noticed it a lot....

You never even hear the code per post #29?

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

43. Maybe, you've never had the courage to stand up to or eliminate such people from your life!!! nt

[Dr Fate]

49. LOL-Maybe that's why I moved to a more progressive city on a different coast.

I can say that I havent heard much of it since- either folks dont feel that way or they are better at hiding it.

My courage is not at issue here- I see my post (#21) below about how I used to handle racist language...

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

51. You accused a lady, sensitive to rascist remarks, of being a member of the "white club".

Make sense of THAT.

[Dr Fate]

53. Wrong- its the opposite- I noted that she must not be percieved to be in such a club.

Go back and read what I said about the old Eddie Murphey skit.

If you are not in "the white club"- then no one will say racist things around you- they wait until you leave the room...

My problem is that I'm white, I dress kinda conservative looking and I have a very "country" sounding accent- so white folks would often say racist things around me thinking that I was "in the club" when I was not. My typical responses to them? See post #21.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

76. You were exposed to an elitist group that could hardly reflect the reality of most folks.

NOW,...I understand you.

You are talking about "locker room" talk in the country clubs!!! :rofl:

Geez! I thought you were talking from the position of an EVERYDAY AMERICAN!!!!

Okay!

We're square.

Sort of.

I've been to those higher economic echelon places, too. It's still RARE to hear hate speech. When it does happen,...it's a drunken "HAR HAR" (*choke*,...*ick*,...*DAMN STRAIGHT*) kinda' response. In other words, even in "privileged" territory, racial slurs are repugnant. Unfortunately, sexual slurs are still acceptable. But, hey,...we are moving along the trail of social justice and it will take the rest of our and our childrens' and grandchildrens' and their childrens' lives to make it real, and human history proves the foregoing a FACT OF HUMANITY.

[Dr Fate]

79. Wrong-I also mentioned "working class" folks too. Hardy "elitist" by any defintion.

Ignorant and easily lied to, yes, but elitist?

The sad thing is the Republicans in the country club or frat-house hurt the poor white "working class" Republicans & swing-voters as much as they hurt the poor blacks- yet both groups have similar positions on race.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

81. OMG! You loved your family,...

,...and they MADE YOU CHOOSE!!!

x(

It's okay! :pals: You'll get them back when it most counts!!! I PROMISE!!!!!

[Dr Fate]

82. LOL! Not quite how it all went down, but thanx for the hugs!!!

n/t

[AZ Criminal JD]

68. I certainly have heard code words from time to time

I have lived in Birmingham for 4 years. Before that I lived in Chicago. I did hear the N word constantly in young white working class bars in that city. I am not so stupid as to think things are perfect or there is no racism but southern working class whites are far more respectful than their counterparts in the north.

[coriolis]

35. I am absolutely confident in my knowledge that you are a liar.

It's just that simple.
Do you think you are addressing a bunch of morons who just fell off the turnip truck here? Jeesusfuckingchrist...
:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

46. Your knowledge MAY NOT BE reality. Perhaps, you surround yourself with hateful people.

Ever thought about that as a possibility?

:shrug:

[coriolis]

60. What I know is as real as it gets.

There are some DUers who think nothing bad ever happens and some who think everything that happens is bad.
Neither of those idiot groups have any idea how big the middle actually is. It's really fucking depressing.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

78. The middle is HUGE. Soooo,...why are you pretending the extreme is middle?

:shrug:

[coriolis]

104. I think I will avoid incipient insanity trying to figure out what you just said there.

:eyes:

[Dr Fate]

106. I think I just realized that I might be prejudiced against insane people.

;)

[AZ Criminal JD]

75. I wish you were in Birmingham instead of hiding behind this board

You wouldn't be able to post anything.

[Marr]

113. Would you challenge him to a "dyool"?

lol.

[Dr Fate]

15. LOL! LOL! You must be 5 years old then- or you live in college town full of transplants.

Sounds like you only hang out with educated "elitists"- try working construction or any "blue collar" setting-try hanging out with UGA fraternity boys then tell me you dont hear racist words or at least racist code.

You certainly havent lived in Augusta GA for 30 years- or you would hear it once a week at the least and everyday at the most.

I grew up hearing "N&8^%$ jokes" and all kinds of crap like that.

Frankly ,I find it extremely hard to believe that you have never heard someone in GA say the N word in a racist context.

I will admit that over the past 10 years, the racists have learned to be a little more PC with their language- so if you are 15-20 years old maybe you really havent heard it as much as I did.

For the sake of argument, lets assume no one ever says that word around you- well, I got news for you, they are certainly saying it around other people.
I'm sure that comes as a huge suprise to you. LOL!

LOL- so now we are pretending their is no more racist language or code used in GA -apprently for the benefit of a candidate- outstanding!

You may as well tell me you've never met a GA Bush supporter or someone who thinks the media is Liberal.

[Iris]

18. I'm not saying I haven't heard it - just that it's not something I hear every day and as a result,

if I did, the person saying it would know immediately how I felt about it. I can't even remember the last time I heard someone say that word.

[Dr Fate]

24. Sounds like you hang out with lots of educated "elitists"- I envy you.

Either that or you have sucessfully established yourself as someone who is known not to like that kind of talk...I imagine that I would have heard this kind of talk even more if I had not done that myself.

Maybe it's like in the old Eddie Murphy skit, they all start acting normal again once you leave the room!

Considering that the more educated Republicans have learned how to mask their racism with a little more PC language over the past few years, it's possible that you dont hear the N word that word much- but you know you hear the sentiment spoken in code all the time. I dont see much of a difference.

I lived in GA for 30 years- if you are not seeing much racism or racist language, then things have taken a 180 degree turn in just 3 years- and I find that hard to believe.

[Iris]

27. Maybe it's because I live in an area where people are actually intergrated.

I'm rarely in a situation in which there are not people of varying ethnic backgrounds around me.

But, really, there are people in GA who do not consider racism a fact of daily life. In fact, I got the way I am because of friends of mine who started calling me and each other out on racist comments. Many of them are teachers in south Georgia, so, even in that area, there are people who are not like that and don't want to hear it in their day to day life.

As far as codes, I don't even hear those. Or, I'm so out of that world, I don't recognize them - which means they are pointless if someone is trying to communicate something racist to me in that way.

[Dr Fate]

29. I'm not picking on you anymore- but you never even hear the code words?

You've never heard things like:

"...black people get everything they want-they have nothing to complain about."

"...black people use affirmitive action to take our jobs and get into the best schools."

"reverse discrimination" and "reverse racism"

"whenever a black person does not get what they want, they play the race card."

"...those people on welfare..."

"Did you hear the one about Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton..."

etc, etc- and I'm just getting started.

Like I said, I'm not trying to pick on you, but I really and truly find that hard to believe. You must hang out in really progressive sections of Atlanta or in a college town.

[Iris]

34. No! I don't!

But I did when I was growing up in south GA and would expect I'd hear it if I went back there.

You know, I should have mentioned that I do hang out with educated people, but they are not "elite" - they would not really be considered elite nor would they consider themselves elite. It's sort of a classless existence - we're not really part of a "class" because we choose not to be. Hard to explain. It can be lonely sometimes, but I was more lonely growing up around the kind of people you are talking about.

I'm sorry if I was abrasive. I understand what you are saying but there are a lot of people around here that would like to believe all Southerners are racist and ignorant and I think you and I prove that that is not the case.

[Dr Fate]

No need to apologize- I think we have come to an agreement!

Also- I am glad you made the point in your last paragraph- its not everyone- but you can find them concentrated in pockets.

I guess I grew up in one of those pockets. Folks in say, Atlanta or Athens are not as bad with it, especially over the past few years...

[Dervill Crow]

12. I would have to divorce my husband.

I call him on it every time he says something racist. He's not from the south, but his family is very white and very Repuglican, whereas I am NoPo (Portlanders will get this) and proud. He's not nearly as bad as his family, but he still says things that make me wonder what the hell I was thinking when I married him 34 years ago.

I wasted half my morning composing an e-mail to my MIL who forwarded me one of those stupid outraged e-mails that repuglicans so love. Thank God/dess we don't live in the same state; the fur would be flying.

[last_texas_dem]

105. I'm from East Texas and I know where you're coming from

I no longer have too many friends that openly use the n-word, but just about everyone I was friends with in high school did, and I still have friends who use racially-coded language- even though I suspect most of them would deny being racist at all if confronted about it. More power to those who live in the South and have managed to surround themselves with open-minded liberals who never say anything "wrong", but I'd be out of friends if I disowned all of them with whom I had had some sort of fundamental disagreement on politics, religion, etc.

[Dr Fate]

107. Thanx- for a second I thought I may haved lived in an alternate reality.

;)

[Thirtieschild]

112. We lived in GA 39 years and I can't remember ever hearing the N word

Most of those years we lived in a liberal neighborhood in Atlanta. However, my children heard it. In our first years in GA we lived in the suburbs and in 1965 I took our oldest child, then 6, to visit a black friend. When he told the kids in the neighborhood who he'd visited, they apparently tagged him "N lover".

In 1968 I was working with a young black man who had come to Atlanta from PA to work with the American Friends Service Committee to encourage fair housing, i.e., for those of you too young to remember those days and those phrases, integrated housing. He spoke with a Yankee accent, called someone about renting an apartment, was told to come right over to see the apartment. I drove him to the address, we got out, me carrying my baby, and they wouldn't answer the door. I'd never experienced racism before, was far more upset than he was. He said he was used to it, also that he preferred the in-your-face racism of the South to the pretend-we-aren't-racist attitude of the North. I've told this story before, repeat it periodically because it made such an impact on me.

Edited for clarity

[lapislzi]

11. I do what I can

I call out others on racist jokes or biased comments whenever I hear them--yes, even my boss were he to make one. I could not justify quitting my job over them, as the comments occur very infrequently and are made almost exclusively by subordinates. I have spoken to subordinates, but it hasn't done much good (drove the comments underground). Resigning in protest seems pointless to me, nor can I justify going to management to get someone fired when I know that someone needs a job as much as I do. Interestingly enough, sexism seems to be a bigger problem in my workplace.

I try to examine my life and behavior for biases. I don't know how successful that is. If they're pointed out to me, I absolutely try to do something about them.

Am I doing enough? Probably not. Educate me.

[coriolis]

13. I think the USA is insanely politically correct.

I'm white but I'm gay so I have some credibility to address the question...but there are some people who say the situations aren't equivalent...to which I say "fuck you too."

[maxsolomon]

17. the last bigot i met, i think i enlightened. a bit.

confrontations don't change people. they make them angry & spiteful.

[Dr Fate]

21. I agree with you- the best thing you can do is say something to make them think...

One of my favorites is- "I wonder if Jesus would agree with what you just said" or "Do you know people who wouldnt hire a black person if they could get away with it? I do..."

I call it "planting seeds".

One thing is for sure, the denial that I see is not the answer.

[unpossibles]

19. I tend to speak up quite a lot

and sometimes have made people mad at me for calling them out on it.

I got myself fired for speaking up to the owner of a company repeatedly, telling him not to use racist and sexist terms.

I've also called out my in laws, although I generally think they don't mean it sometimes - my father in law is a Rush listener, and I hear him repeating all sorts of garbage. I usually try to at least reason with him about it, instead of just getting mad.

What sucks is, racism and sexism are still large enough problems in our country that many people "don't notice it" or think it's not a problem any more, or worse think that we've reached a state of "reverse racism/sexism." It' kind of shocking, really.

And to be fair, anyone can say something which sounds wrong - most of us have stuck a foot in our mouths at one time or another somehow - so I generally try to see if it seems to be a prevailing attitude problem or just something stupid someone said without thinking about it.

[loyalsister]

42. Doing the best we can

is sometimes the best we can do. I admit that my father was flying- actually flying the confederate flag. He said it had something to do with family dying in the Civil War. I thought it had something to do with his new girlfriend being racist. I didn't go to his house for over a year and told him why. Eventually he took it down.

I visit him on holidays and other occassions despite the fact that the girlfriend is still around. The only time I have to be around her is the holidays. If you want to hear incendiary comments, she makes them. I have told her all about it. I have a sneaking suspicion her daughter is emarrassed of her.

One day I made a comment about Republicans and she was very offended because the girlfriend is a Republican. My dad is more independent. He and I make partisan jokes because he knows I am a Democrat.

Interesting thing about him, my sister got him to like Obama best of the Democrats. Meaning if Mitt Romney had gotten the nomination he might have been talked into voting for Obama. My youngest sister has some influence.

As for sexism. The reason he likes that woman is that she is willing to play a traditional role and do his laundry and clean, etc.

[unpossibles]

89. right on

it's not easy when it's family, is it?

What's funny/sad is that my father in law is a good guy and generally treats everyone very well, but I see him as a victim of right wing talk radio. usually after an hour or so of "discussion" he'll come around on every issue. He admits he votes Republican almost solely because of gun rights, but when I hear him repeat radio crap, like how "all Muslims want to kill everyone else" it really makes me cringe. I usually suck it up and instead of getting mad, try to point out the flaws.

In that instance, I asked him what the solution is then, if Islam has an inherent problem which makes every Muslim want to kill all Christians? He didn't get it at first, so I asked if maybe we should kill all of them - men, women, and children - first, just so they can't. He got what I was saying, and finally admitted that it was unlikely that what he said was accurate, and that his viewpoint was just as bad if his solution is to want to kill all of them.

It gets frustrating though.

[loyalsister]

99. It is frustrating

Dealing with family is really tough.
Job situations and institutional stituations leave people with some tough choices, as well.
Situations with friends can be more confusing than I think people let on.
For one thing we are not with our friends 24 hrs. They may behave differently outside of our presense.
As has been discussed elsewhere in the thread, if a friend has racist friends we don't know, there is probably something about that friend we are missing. Generally, there are probably code words going unnoticed, though.

The whole point of this thread was to point out that white people put up with all sorts of despicable crap without realizing it.

I honestly think that it is typically unconscious. Many people hold biases below the surface that hold no malice.

However, the thing that has made me angry here is that even if white people will acknowledge that, there seems to be a very strong resistance to consider that it is hypocritical to suggest that a person who is black is irreparably tainted by any associations that might be objectionable to white people.

I will cop to having a racist father that I have not disowned, and I will say that I am disappointed that Obama has caved to the political pressure in regards to Rev. Wright.

I wish more white people would look in the mirror and look honestly at their own associations with no defensiveness.

[madmom]

23. MY daughter just dumped a guy she was really fond of because he was

" a major homophobe!"

[loyalsister]

66. Apparently, you have taught her well

It's definitely better not to get involved with someone who does not share one's values. There's only heartbreak in that future.

[Marrah_G]

26. I'll bite

Quit my job? I probably would if there was racism there. Fortunately I work for an awesome liberal progressive boss. I would have to locate another job before quitting though, I have kids to feed.

Disown institutions? Absolutely. Including religion. I left the faith I was raised in and instead found one that fit my true beliefs.

End friendships? I couldn't be friends with a bigot in the first place.

[loyalsister]

67. Feeding the kids

is definitely a priority. I think it would be hard to leave a job. But I think the most important piece would be to speak up. A surprising number of people listen under the right conditions.

As for friends, I think most of us would be surprised at how some of our distant friends behave not in our presense.

[leftchick]

32. I have not spoken to my neighbor bigot since hurricane Katrina

when he told me "those people" had a chance to leave and chose not to. After days at looking at photos of the forgotten and dead in NO, I left their house in tears and have not spoken to him since.

My son's best friend is black and when he experiences racism at school my son defends him. I thought we had actually evolved a little more by now. :(

[JanMichael]

47. Don't feel bad; after a similiar conversation

my wife couldn't walk our dog when a certain neighbor was outside.

You actually met my wife, "Thtwudbeme" at Democratic Headquarters!

[leftchick]

58. I remember meeting her!

She was very sweet. I believe you two had just moved here. Are you liking it? :)

[loyalsister]

36. Thanks for responses

I asked to make people think. I have been surprised where I have encountered racism. People who say they "wouldn't have a friend who held and bigoted views" might be surprised.

If a person is willing to laugh at a racist joke or comment, their heart is not likely to be free of racism. Unless friends have been vetted this is an unknown. We don't usually vet our friends.

We accept them and befriend them based on the things we have in common in the present and in our presense.

I hope that the 20 year argument dies soon.

[ljm2002]

37. Hear, hear!

But why oh why don't our candidates have the intestinal fortitude to weather media shitstorms without throwing their supporters under the bus, I don't know.

Seems to me, the black vote will soften for Obama due to his repudiation of Rev. Wright. He'd have been better off saying nothing, and when asked, responding with "He's retired now, he was a wonderful pastor, I don't agree with everything he says" or something to that effect. Now, black people have to ask themselves -- if the Rev. Wright, the man who baptized Obama and both of his children, can't count on Obama to stick with him, then who can?

This is of course only my opinion. I could be wrong. But from what I see, this is much more damaging to Obama than if he'd kept his mouth shut -- and of course, it is a move that is very in keeping with the so-called "centrist" Dems -- worry about who you might offend, backpedal as often as requested, and screw your base. It's how they stay on the good side of the corporatists, who own both parties.

One of these fine days, the base will just break off and start their own party. Well, a gal can dream...

[loyalsister]

48. I feel disappointed too

I had hoped that Obama would do better.
I actually talked to white people who said that they were impressed that he didn't throw him under the bus.

[El Pinko]

100. Obama's screwed no matter what he does.

If he repudiates what Wright said (most of which was true, by the way, except the gov't created AIDS), his integrity and loyalty are questioned.

If he doesn't then the spectre of black militancy is raised and he's made yet again into "the scary black man".

I really think the focus on Wright shows the public's lingering racism, and the right & the media's eagerness to exploit it.

It's disgusting.

PS - I voted for Obama, but I do not have a real favorite between Obama & Hillary. Both are way too right-leaning for me.

[Jamastiene]

96. Maybe Obama actually did disagree with Wright on some

of the things he was saying and felt the need to speak up. Granted, you are 100% right about the MSM messing with our primaries and controlling things. Don't get me wrong on that, because I agree that MSM is ripping the Democratic Party up right now with their meddling, but maybe Obama didn't agree with some of the more questionable things Wright was saying.

It's one thing to criticize Israel, for instance, but another to go overboard and demonize them. There is a right way and a wrong way to go about doing things. ALL white people are not devils. We didn't deserve 9/11. Our government and the people of the country are two different things. Let's be honest. Before 9/11, how many of us knew the whole story behind the Soviet/Afghan War? How many of us really paid attention to what was happening outside of our own borders? How many of us knew to pay attention? The American people were kept naive and unaware before that.

The truth is the things Wright was saying were hurtful to a lot of people. I know. Context, but still, that's not what people end up hearing. People hear sound bytes. People form judgments based on those sound bytes. The things people hear make up the "court of public opinion." Maybe Obama wasn't throwing anyone under the bus. I don't know that, but what if he was really trying to stave off negative racial tensions. I'd respect his decision if that was the case.

[fascisthunter]

38. I Do.....I Feel Very Uncomfortable around Racists

Racists talk shit about everybody. Picking a color is just easier for their type. Soon, they'll find a way to hate you for some bullshit reason too.

Fuck 'em.

[Turbineguy]

40. In my High school in the 60's

and being new to this country, I saw there was a lot of racism. It seemed pretty obvious that black people in particular were getting a raw deal. Most of them were obviously quite poor. On the other hand, a number of the black students at the school behaved badly and threatened whites. There was racism everywhere.

That town in general was very racially divided. There was literally a no-mans-land zone between the "white section' and where the darker-skinned people lived. There was less of a demarcation between blacks and "mexicans' (as everybody who was neither black nor white was then called). The (white) Mayor once told me he could get "200 men with guns with just one phone call" in case of an uprising. But that was then. I moved out of that town after finishing college. A few years ago I drove back there for a visit and can say that the town's racist philosophy was not a success. The town had really deteriorated and the largest building in town had been converted from a supermarket to the Welfare Office. As far as I know, about 90% of people I went to high school moved elsewhere.

Just 10 years ago I worked with a (white) guy who had progressed to the point of using the term "those people". Some of us have progressed more than others.

I recognize that others have different color skin than me, along with brown or blue or hazel eyes, light or dark hair, bigger or smaller noses, taller or shorter in stature, etc.

I don't think the color of skin is important any more than other physical characteristics. As such, I would probably have to classify myself as "unintentionally insensitive" as I have not studied all the history and cultural aspects of discrimination. Thus I may use a term which to some may have negative connotations without meaning to be derogatory in any way. I think we all grow up with certain prejudices. As a European, these are mostly based on nationality, cultural or religious differences. And in America I have been the victim of discrimination on grounds of nationality, but only rarely and for short periods of time (and by those who flaunted their national heritage proudly!). But that was certainly nothing like the multi-generational discrimination that many have been subjected to. Now I am mostly prejudiced against Republicans!

Are people too sensitive about these things? Perhaps. A little tolerance is called for.

In Europe, years ago, people were appalled at the racism in America, but then they lived in a mostly homogeneous society and did not understand the nature of living in a pluralistic society. They are finding out now that Americans as a whole, have come a long way in a fairly short time (2 generations). I think most of this is due to Affirmative Action and is very beneficial to society. Life is hard enough without the creation of artificial barriers.

Are my (mostly white and asian) friends racially biased? Probably not. It never comes up in conversation anyway. Those who are racially biased tend to make their views known pretty quickly in my experience.

I hope this helps.

[marshall]

45. I have avoided joining the Sons of the Confederacy for fear it is full of racists

I know that there have to be some in the group who are just family history enthusiasts like me, but I have a dread that most of the group would be redneck bigots so I've stayed out.
I don't feel the same way about the Sons of the Republic of Texas or the SAR.

[Dr Fate]

55. The "Heritage Not Hate" crowd can get pretty bad. Some folks refuse to believe these types exist.

I ran into the same thing when I dabbled in Civil War History enthusiasm.

"Nathan Bedford Forrest did what was necessary for the time"

"The Civil War wasnt really about race" (Despite Jefferson Davis saying it was)..among others...

A lot of really dishonest positions, actually.

[galledgoblin]

91. "Nathan Bedford Forrest did what was necessary for the time"

oh my god, if someone said that in front of me I'd need to leave the room

[Jamastiene]

97. Have you been to the Southern Poverty Law Center's web site?

They can probably help you figure that out. IIRC, there were racist problems with SCV for a few years, but from what I remember, it was a regional thing. Their web site is well worth reading to find out what is going on with regional chapters of the different groups. Maybe, you could form your own group without the racist stuff allowed.

[trashcanistanista]

56. I used to ignore it, but now I don't. I confront it

in a sarcastic and belittling way, always in front of others. I'm surprised I haven't been fired from my job yet. Once you speak out and get the reaction you want, it gets easier to do it again, and again, and again. My best friend can be hateful at times and in that case, I try to adress it reasonably.

[slackmaster]

57. Why is the question directed only at white people?

That seems kind of racist to me. White people aren't even in the majority where I live.

[loyalsister]

63. White people are the majority

in government, major business owners, administrative leaders, Americans

The power structure in American culture comes from the point of view of white people.

[slackmaster]

64. OK, then let me answer the original question in my own way

I don't hang around with assholes of any kind.

[Stinky The Clown]

59. I quit a job over a sexist boss

I did that fifteen years and two days ago.

Funny you should mention that.

I took the opportunity to join with two of the women from that company to start a competing business.

Today, we do way better than they do. And we're women owned.

I avoid prejudiced people and simply stop hanging around with them. I've never had occasion to quit a job because of racial issues, though. I was, however, reprimanded once (many, many years ago) for being 'too employee oriented' in a business that employed a lot of minorities.

[loyalsister]

65. Good for you

I'm really glad it worked out so well. There is always a risk of paying a price for speaking out or challenging power. But, when we do and it produces the results that we want or that we can live with, then it is satisfying.
There are times when we can even find victories as you seem to have.

[Guaranteed]

69. I don't hear out and out racism all that often.

What I do hear is justified socioeconomic inequality.

THAT I confront.

[conscious evolution]

71. I have.

I have even disowned family for their rascist attitudes.

I have also seen the 'white club' people upthread were discussing.

If any of my current friends are rascist they are keeping it well hidden.

Also.I must say I have known some A-A's who are overly sensitive.

[EFerrari]

83. I won't live, work or socialize with it. n/t

[Generic Brad]

87. Checking in

Damn right I confront. I do not accept racism in any form. But it has come at a great personal price. I am no longer welcome among my relatives. My interracial marriage seemed ok with them for many years, but when a few got boorish and made some extremely inappropriate racial remarks about my wife, child and the flood victims of New Orleans I was asked to buck up and forgive. Fuck that. Until I get an apology from the offenders and a repudiation of the remarks from the rest they can all kiss my rear.

So, yeah. I have confronted and when it led nowhere, I left. And I'm still as pissed off about it as the day it happened.

[El Pinko]

90. No, I don't know anyone who says racist shit anymore.

But I know dozens of people of all colors who are struggling economically because of US economic policies to transfer wealth from the working class to the wealthy.

I don't think the world is too PC, or that blacks are too sensitive - they have genuine reasons to get pissed.

But I think a lot of rich white liberals seem to love to focus on race, the environment, gays, whatever, and seek to keep attantion away from the bigger issue of class struggle in this country.

That way they can feel like they are doing "good" without it ever affecting their pocketbook.


I have a dream that one day, poor and working-class whites, blacks and latinos will rise up and take the white, right-wing robber-barons, and their little pets, the white liberals, and throw them out of the halls of power, and make this a country where the people at the top no longer earn 1000 times more than those at the bottom.

Sorry to go off-topic on this. You're asking valid questions. This is just where my head is right now.

[Bluenorthwest]

92. In my world

I have never ever heard a person in power use any such language, ever. Not once in my life.
No friend of mine would use such language. Period.

And I am constantly told that I am too PC and gay people too sensitive, often in fact, by black people. So. There you go.

I'd never have to do with any institution that was verbally bigoted. No freaking way.

There is a song called 'you and your racist friend' by They Might Be Giants that is suited to this thread:

It was the loveliest party that I've ever attended
If anything was broken I'm sure it could be mended
My head can't tolerate this bobbing and pretending
Listen to some bullet-head and the madness that he's saying

This is where the party ends
I'll just sit here wondering how you
Can stand by your racist friend
I know politics bore you
But I feel like a hypocrite talking to you
You and your racist friend

This is where the party ends
I can't stand here listening to you
And your racist friend
I know politics bore you
But I feel like a hypocrite talking to you
And your racist friend

Out from the kitchen to the bedroom to the hallway
Your friend apologizes, he could see it my way
He let the contents of the bottle do the thinking
Can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding

[galledgoblin]

93. in high school I started forcing myself to call out other people when they use hate language

the n word has never been tossed around casually in my life, but the f word has been.

I don't know if it has ever actually changed anyone's minds, but it does get them to stop using hate language around me.

[Jamastiene]

94. I do. It ain't fun at the time, but it does leave you feeling better inside later.

I admit, I don't always stick around to argue about it or try to change people's minds, but I do always say something, because it irritates me. I wish I had more physical endurance (energy) than I do. I might could do some good in the world if I did.

I do have a long story though with a happy ending.

Looking back, I think the fact that I get extremely tired sometimes and just bluntly say what I'm thinking instead of always putting out a lot more energy to argue probably was the very thing that made a difference. I was just too tired to argue that night.

My punk band had already practiced. That's really all we ever did and played free shows because there's no money in playing punk where I live. My band mate had a side project where he played blues with some guys he knew. He loved blues more than punk, except hardcore punk. I liked punk more but could try blues. He mentioned an opening for a paid gig as a guitarist in the blues band he was playing with on the side.

So, I decided to try out for the blues band. After my audition, they said I had the job if I wanted it. The gig would have gotten me $120 per show I played, which for this area is really good money. They needed a drummer and asked if I knew anyone. I knew a drummer and so did my other friend who was already in the band. We had been playing with him in our punk band for 6 months prior to doing the side blues project. I recommended him. He was a great drummer. He would have been a sure completion to the band and we would have been on our way.

The leader of the band, though, said no to us. Why? He claimed his girlfriend said he couldn't have any black people in the band. I asked him more questions to gauge whether he was bullshitting me about his girlfriend or was it really his own rule. I was kind of tired that night, but put a tiny tad bit of effort out to get the full story. I happened to be looking at the complete set list for regular practice and for the show. That's when it hit me. There were no songs on the set list by any black artists either.

I felt a cold chill down my spine and a lump in my throat. I dreaded what I knew was about to happen, but I knew I would have to be the one to do it, because, although my friend felt the same way I did, he wanted people to like him so much that he wouldn't say anything. I, on the other hand, don't care if I fit in with the wrong kind of people.

At that moment, though, I hated myself and had a heavy feeling in my heart, because I knew I was getting ready to open my mouth and cause more trouble in redneckland again and, of course, pay another price as always. Every single time I would stand up for something I believed in, I had to hear it from my parents, my step dad and everyone around me that I was just too controversial and liberal and just too outspoken and that I would never make friends and that I would always be alone and that I was just too stubborn for my own good. Blah, blah, blah.

I told the leader of that band exactly what I thought about no black artists on the set list and about his "girlfriend's rule" and I turned down the job. I didn't cuss him out or anything. I just told him I felt that morally that was wrong and I couldn't live with myself if I did it. Music is a spiritual thing to me and I didn't want to feel unclean inside by sharing music with musicians who felt that way. I made sure he knew completely what I meant too. Then I left. I was tired. I didn't feel like arguing that night.

My friend and I talked later about why I turned them down. He ended up leaving that band too. Normally, he wouldn't have had the guts to do something like that because he was the type who needed constant approval from people to feel like he fit in. But, he did that with me and it made a difference. The leader of that band ended up spending the next 2 or 3 years making damn sure he put plenty of songs by black artists on any wanted ads he put up in the guitar store for musicians and later ended up with a mixed race band like ours and he apologized to me for the whole thing.

It does make a difference to tell people you won't stand for any of that nonsense. Word travels fast in a small town like my hometown, especially among the music scene. Everyone who knows me knows what I stand for and what I stand against. I'm not into any bullshit. I just want to play some music. Before that, I took a lot of shit for not wanting people around me to use racial slurs or sexist or homophobic slurs. Paying the price for years earlier in life led to that moment when I finally realized that at least a few people respected me for it.

So, you pay a price at first, but later you earn respect from the damnedest places including the people you stood up to about it. Of course, where I live, it could also get you attacked or killed, but I'd rather die with that good feeling in my heart than live with a constant bad feeling and chewed up tongue for not saying anything. This is the first time I have thought about that in years now.

I guess I made a tiny little difference in the world back then, at least, but it WAS the 90s when I felt there was hope in this awful world. I was able to put more energy into it back then too though. Today, I just feel tired most of the time. I'll still say something to people if I think they are really truly being racist or sexist or homophobic about something, but I hardly ever feel like standing around arguing like my punk band and I did with that neo-nazi that came into our practice place one night...uninvited. That's another story, though, a scary one.

[loyalsister]

98. Good story

I think that it is an important biographical piece to keep in the foreground of your memory.
It sounds like you set a strong standard for yourself.
We can be our own role models sometimes.

[guardian]

101. I have

I've not joined groups, left parties early, and severed relationships with people that were racist/bigoted. For what it's worth I've seen more racism in hispanics and blacks than whites in recent years.

[LanternWaste]

103. On edit: Never mind-- I thought this was a serious question...

My friends I know well enough to realize if what they are saying is racism or an editorial on racism. So in most instances if/when my friend says something which could be inferred as being potentially racist, I assume it's not-- so I guess I don't call them on it.

In a group of acquaintances that I may know, but not very well it's pretty well known of me that I don't tolerate humor at the expense of anyone very well-- regardless of whether it's due to race, orientation, religion or hair style.

I have had friends that had a bit too much ingrained racism in them that they continued to justify, but I don't see them anymore (i.e., they're not my friends anymore-- but as to why, I will not say any further).

I don't think there's such as thing as being too PC. To me, it's that same as saying there's such a thing as being too respectful, or the same as saying there's such a thing as being too nice. I think those that argue there is in fact such as thing as being too PC are merely justifying and defending the fact that we're not nice when we should be...

Hope that helps :hi:


On edit: Never mind-- I thought this was a serious question-- but it seems to be a hangover from something that most likely popped up in GD Politics. Yup-- I guess I got suckered into "proving" someone's point... lol

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

109. "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone." K&R Great post.

I've done more "confronting" of people who tell jokes, use racial epithets, degrade other people, than most people I know. But, I have also looked away, done nothing, said nothing, at times.

To deny that there is racism, institutional and otherwise, in this country, and that there millions of people in this country who suffer from it, is to deny reality.

I have seen it practiced in institutions that prominently forbid it. I have dealt with people who have suffered from it. I have confronted people in power because of it, but I've also backed down in the face of power.

I've put myself at risk fighting it, but I've also refused to take other risks.

I've dropped friends because of it, but still have friends who cling to it.

Racism, and it's history, is probably the ugliest blot on America and is still there.

[pitohui]

111. you can't up-end your life every time you encounter a fuckwit

if someone quit their job and dis-owned "institutions" (i assume you mean churches, clubs, and the like) every time they heard a racist joke or comment, they'd be awfully busy

yes, i know people and even have friends who are, for lack of a better word, racist fuckwits -- i am sorry to say it, but racism is still a very big problem in this country that infects millions upon millions of people and you simply can't avoid them all and still live your life

you have to have the wisdom to know what you can change and the serenity to accept what you can't -- or, in short, pick your battles

you can't change the character of an adult and you can't shape your entire life such that you never encounter a bigot, work with a bigot, party with a bigot, bigotry and racism are endemic in our society

all you can do is plant seeds, as someone upthread pointed out, but if you spend your life "confronting" you just make yourself into the fuckwit and the ignorant person never has the chance to be enlightened by your example

i don't think the world is "too PC," nor do i think most black people are "too sensitive," i think that many of them have a perfectly realistic idea of what is going on in the world, i just don't see any advantage to fighting about it 24/7

pick your battles and do your best, it's all any of us can do

sometimes the way to change is to confront but sometimes the way to change is through quiet example, and sometimes you are too tired to argue about it, just do the best you can and don't blame yourself if you don't feel like doing battle with every single "moran" that crosses your path