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I have a simple point to make: the fact that the GDP grew in the 1st Quarter only proves one thing

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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 02:05 PM
Original message
I have a simple point to make: the fact that the GDP grew in the 1st Quarter only proves one thing
It proves how completely ridiculous the GDP is as the key indicator for the health of an economy.

Now the Bush administration is out cheering about how they were "right" and we aren't in a "recession" - and yet, anyone with a brain cell is aware that for real Americans, this is the worst economic period in years and years and years.

Unemployment is up, jobs are down, wages are declining, consumer confidence is at a five year low, gas prices are crushing working Americans -- and not of those things matter, because hey, the GDP grew by 0.6% in the first quarter, so WE'RE NOT IN A RECESSION THE ECONOMY IS GREAT WOO HOO!

:(
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Tommy_Carcetti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. GDP grew because people are insane about their candidates.....
Oh wait, you meant gross domestic product. I thought you meant that cluster eff of a board on this site.
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Zing!
:rofl:
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. Ya
I knew they were going to stomp up and down about that when I heard it on NPR this morning.

Just tells you how much they are massaging the numbers. That pig will fly yet! Just let our number crunchers at him!
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. GDP has been shrinking for years if we removed all the gimmickry from the reporting.
http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data

Scroll down and view unemployment, CPI, GDP, and other figures. The CPI reporting and unemployment are especially stark.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. Besides, the GDP probably didn't grow, anyway.
They always release these positive numbers (if you can call a sixth of one percent positive), then revise the numbers downward in a few months. If they time it properly, they can revise the numbers down just before they release the new data, and then base the new numbers on the old numbers, then drop the old numbers and compare the current quarter to the revised numbers.

In other words they say "Last quarter we showed the GDP as X, and we've figure out the numbers for this quarter as X-1, which is bad, but we've also revised last quarter's numbers to x-2, which means we really lost money last quarter, but this quarter the GDP was x-1, which is growth from x-2, so we have growth! Weehee."

Liars figure.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. Phantom GDP numbers... Business Week article 2007
Edited on Wed Apr-30-08 02:24 PM by Joanne98
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_25/b4039001.htm

But new evidence suggests that shifting production overseas has inflicted worse damage on the U.S. economy than the numbers show. BusinessWeek has learned of a gaping flaw in the way statistics treat offshoring, with serious economic and political implications. Top government statisticians now acknowledge that the problem exists, and say it could prove to be significant.

The short explanation is that the growth of domestic manufacturing has been substantially overstated in recent years. That means productivity gains and overall economic growth have been overstated as well. And that raises questions about U.S. competitiveness and "helps explain why wage growth for most American workers has been weak," says Susan N. Houseman, an economist at the W.E. Upjohn Institute for Employment Research who identifies the distorting effects of offshoring in a soon-to-be-published paper.

FLY IN THE OINTMENT
The underlying problem is located in an obscure statistic: the import price data published monthly by the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS). Because of it, many of the cost cuts and product innovations being made overseas by global companies and foreign suppliers aren't being counted properly. And that spells trouble because, surprisingly, the government uses the erroneous import price data directly and indirectly as part of its calculation for many other major economic statistics, including productivity, the output of the manufacturing sector, and real gross domestic product (GDP), which is supposed to be the inflation-adjusted value of all the goods and services produced inside the U.S. (For a detailed explanation of how import price data are calculated and why the methodology is suspect, see page 34.)

The result? BusinessWeek's analysis of the import price data reveals offshoring to low-cost countries is in fact creating "phantom GDP"--reported gains in GDP that don't correspond to any actual domestic production. The only question is the magnitude of the disconnect. "There's something real here, but we don't know how much," says J. Steven Landefeld, director of the Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA), which puts together the GDP figures. Adds Matthew J. Slaughter, an economist at the Amos Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth College who until last February was on President George W. Bush's Council of Economic Advisers: "There are potentially big implications. I worry about how pervasive this is."

By BusinessWeek's admittedly rough estimate, offshoring may have created about $66 billion in phantom GDP gains since 2003 (page 31). That would lower real GDP today by about half of 1%, which is substantial but not huge. But put another way, $66 billion would wipe out as much as 40% of the gains in manufacturing output over the same period.

It's important to emphasize the tenuousness of this calculation. In particular, it required BusinessWeek to make assumptions about the size of the cost savings from offshoring, information the government doesn't even collect.

GETTING WORSE
As a result, the actual size of phantom GDP could be a lot larger, or perhaps smaller. This estimate mainly focuses on the shift of manufacturing overseas. But phantom GDP can be created by the introduction of innovative new imported products or by the offshoring of research and development, design, and services as well--and there aren't enough data in those areas to take a stab at a calculation. "As these countries move up the value chain, the problem becomes worse and worse," says Jerry A. Hausman, a top economist at Massachusetts Institute of Technology. "You've put your finger on a real problem."


http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_25/b4039001.htm
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
6. war spending up 6%. no kidding, according to dean baker, this
is one of the key factors keeping things positive.

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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
8. Simple answer:
Pull defense spending out of the equation to get loser to the real GDP that most of us face.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
9. GDP Almost Always Goes Up On A Nominal Basis
You are correct. Uncorrected growth rates are apropos of nothing but since the media is ignorant of that, the manipulators only put forth what the media will regurgitate.

There are at least 7 other indicators that mean FAR more.

The Professor
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. I was wondering where you were gonna go with that.
And I agree.
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