the sweetest child and best student in my class came in this morning,

[ulysses]

the last day of the school year for the kids, in tears. Her mom got picked up in an immigration raid early this morning.

I have no words for how pissed off I am right now.

[babylonsister]

1. Ohhh, how sad. Good thing we have no other problems in this

country. :grr:

[acmavm]

2. At who? The parent that put the kid in this position?

That's who you need to be mad at.

[ulysses]

4. figured I'd get this response.

No, I'm not mad at the family for trying to build a better life for themselves and their children.

[acmavm]

19. Hey, they should stay in their own country and fight for change

there.

[ulysses]

22. given that "fighting for change" in many of those countries

often means "get shot or disappeared by the US-backed junta", I can understand why they might choose a different path.

[juno jones]

40. You are right.

The only restaurant I ever worked in with 'illegals' was back in the 80's in Berkeley. The 'illegals' there were mainly central and south Americans fleeing the juntas. Most of these guys had advanced degrees (like doctors...) and they were washing dishes. I suspect the owners of the place were connected with some sanctuary group and we were a station on an underground railroad. They would come, wash dishes for awhile and move on, probably towards Canada.

I talked a lot to these guys and I learned a lot of compassion for supposed 'illegals' back then.

[burythehatchet]

56. I was going to comment the same.

They can stay there and fight against our puppets. It is remarkable how many individuals thought process is limited to one array, one dimension, one limited set of observations. Long live free speech.

[acmavm]

59. Aren't you the one who just called sneaking across the borders

'life threatening'? So taking the gamble of making it across the border is okay, fighting for one's rights isn't?

You make no sense.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

138. Why don't you just go back to where you came from.

You're unwelcome.

[Chulanowa]

64. Don't mind acmavm...

Some people just assume that everyone has it as easy as they do, and that people should face huge penalties for a civil misdemeanor. Illegal immigration is a crime like jaywalking is a crime, but thanks to people like acmavn, we treat them like the ultimate threat to our nation, smash down their doors, drag them out, throw them into the first town across the border and leave them there.

[Gemini Cat]

111. Exactly

Obviously some people are oblivious to that fact.
Perhaps willfully so.

[Honeycombe8]

212. If the illegals had gone back to Mexico and voted 2 years ago, they'd have a liberal President.

But the conservative, Bush's counterpart, won by a narrow margin. So things won't be improving in Mexico much in the near future.

[ulysses]

214. one, you have quite a bit more faith in the commitment to democracy

in some of those nations than I do. Two, my student's family isn't from Mexico, they're from Guatemala. Three, as has been pointed out ad nauseum in immigration threads, referring to people as "illegals" is dehumanizing and says a lot about those who employ the usage.

[Honeycombe8]

216. I employ the legal term, "illegal immigrants." How did she get thru Mexico from Guat.?

Mexico guards its southern border with armed patrolmen; they escort illegal immigrants back across the southern border at the point of a rifle. They shoot to kill.

Notwithstanding where she is from, my sympathies are with the poor, uneducated, unskilled American worker whose job she took. I am not without heart. I feel sorry for poor people in foreign nations. But unlike some others, I also sympathize and declare my loyalty to my own family first....Americans. If someone illegally steals their job or property, it is only right (morally and legally), to right that wrong, so that our fellow citizen can have her job back.

[proud2BlibKansan]

239. You must not know much about that election

It was stolen. Their votes wouldn't have mattered. I have a good friend who is an election protection advocate. She went down to Mexico with a team of volunteers to work that election. She has been to several other countries to help during elections and she said Mexico's was the most corrupt and the most obviously stolen she has ever seen.

[yardwork]

63. What a horrible thing to say.

[proud2BlibKansan]

73. How progressive of you!!

:sarcasm:

[LeftyMom]

82. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. nt

[LSK]

go there and see their country before you talk

[treestar]

119. The Irish should have stayed in the 1840s

Instead of coming to the U.S. to become a burden on those already here.

:sarcasm:

[Arugula Latte]

160. Yeah, really. Potato famine, Mopato Schmamine.

So your potatoes all died. Big freakin' deal! Grow something else then, ya micks. Sheesh.




:sarcasm:

[Greyhound]

187. In point of fact, the potato famine was induced by the British stealing all

of their potatoes and leaving the Irish to starve.

[lumpy]

188. The Irish potato famine was caused by potato blight (disease)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_potato_famine

Curious where you heard that it was caused by British stealing Irish potatoes.

[Hekate]

202. You might want to read The Great Hunger by Cecil Woodham-Smith

The British did many bad things during the Famine, but the potatoes themselves were inedible, the fungus of the blight having reduced them to slimy black stinking masses in the fields.

Hekate

[galledgoblin]

243. well, not ALL the potatoes

but yes, I've also heard that the few edible ones grown were shipped out by the Brits.

[orleans]

128. oh give me a fucking break. i'm so tired of this bigotry.

i wish we could just get over ourselves and cut some people a bit of slack. of course, then we might be known as the country with a fucking heart. wouldn't want that now--would you?

[Midlodemocrat]

133. Did I accidentally stumble onto Free Republic?

Because that is a RW non progressive, non compasstionate talking point if I ever heard one.

:eyes:

[slutticus]

162. "They took our jeeeeeebs!!!!"

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/they-took-our-jobs-goobacks/3876285094


LOL

Was that you in the back?

[unapatriciated]

206. This is what happens when they "stay in their own country and fight for change"

http://dbacon.igc.org/PJust/21CokeMurders.htm

The Florida case charges that at 8:30 on the morning of December 5, 1996, a rightwing paramilitary squad of the United Self Defense Forces (AUC) showed up at the gate into the Coke bottling plant. Isidro Segundo Gil, a member of the union's executive board, went to see what they wanted. The paras opened fire on him, and he dropped to the ground, mortally wounded. An hour after he was assassinated, paramilitaries kidnapped another leader of the union at his home, who managed to escape nonetheless, and fled to Bogota. At eight that evening, they broke into the union's offices, destroyed the equipment there, and burned down the whole house containing the union's records.

The next day, the heavily-armed group went inside the bottling plant, called the workers together, and gave them until 4PM to resign from the union. "They said that if they didn't resign, the same thing would happen to them that happened to Gil - they would be killed," recalls Paez, who visited the US in November to ask union members here to support the suit.

[ulysses]

207. that's not the problem of American workers. didn't you know?

:sarcasm:

[unapatriciated]

209. It seems too many like acmavm are of that thinking.

I come across them on a daily basis, when I give my reasons for boycotting Coke or Walmart. They don't fault the Corporations it's a "free trade" issue not a human rights issue.

[Honeycombe8]

213. We could, of course, choose to be happy for the American who will get her job, when she leaves.

But sadly, some people care more for the outsider who has taken an American job than for the American looking for a decent paying job. It boggles the mind.

The illegals are being exploited, paid wages below what an American would have to get paid, and they are often not provided insurance, worker's comp benefits, or anything. That's why American businesses hire them; it's cheaper. And Americans are suffering, as a consequence. Sure, they don't take the high paying tech jobs (those go to India), but they take the bottom blue collar jobs that blue collar Americans need. Maids, sausage stuffers, janitors, tree planters, landscape workers, etc. For the blue collar guy or gal w/o education or skills, this adds up to no work for them.

[mach2]

220. The only lawbreakers you are permitted to criticize here are Bush people.

Didn't you get the memo?

[Midlodemocrat]

134. I'm sorry this happened, Uly. It's a horrible thing to happen to a child.

[midnight]

238. As well you should not. Parts of my family came here from

Canada seeking refuge from swearing allegiance to the King of England. It was a risky allegiance because they were Catholic. This was a country built on taking in those who needed help. If the Indians made room for us, we can make room for others.

[hlthe2b]

6. Right.....how dare their Mom be born poor & a Non-Amurikan...

:eyes:

[sudopod]

13. Hungry? TOO BAD!

You should have thought about that before being poor!

[acmavm]

29. Oh yeah, we don't have poor and homeless in America, do we?

The illegal immigrant has undermined EVERY DAMN POSITIVE GAIN that has ever occurred for labor in this country.

[pampango]

41. Same thing they are saying in South Africa about Zimbabwean immigrants.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7416256.stm

When people are frustrated with their economic situation, they tend to blame immigrants rather than their own political/economic elites. The elites are happy since it keeps domestic workers fighting immigrant labor rather than the elites themselves.

[maryf]

74. Yep, thanks

Divide and conquer, it is a case of elitists manipulating the poor from everywhere...

[sudopod]

85. Well said

Demonizing the outsider is as old as history.

[uberllama42]

42. You're playing into the poor vs. poor dynamic that has blocked progress

by labor throughout this country's history. The struggle should not be native labor vs. foreign labor. Framing the debate that way only helps the owning class.

[LanternWaste]

45. Keep the lower classes fighting against each

"Keep the lower classes fighting against each, use their strength against each other, use their hatred against each other and we will stay in power forever..." Henry Ford.

[Turn CO Blue]

51. Same thing they said about the Irish, and the Chinese, and

and all the other immigrants, legal or not over the history of this country and every other rich country on the face of the earth.




Uncle Sam’s Magic Washer
The infamous Uncle Sam advertisement that hung on the street everywhere in California, promoting racism against the Chinese.



Pacific Chivalry, August 7, 1869

[acmavm]

92. Don't throw in legal immigrants. We're talking about illegals.

[proud2BlibKansan]

100. I read that very comment on RW blogs almost daily

[acmavm]

143. Spend a lot of time over there, do ya?

[proud2BlibKansan]

146. Actually I post on several

Gotta keep them on their toes.

[galledgoblin]

245. bless you

I would post to challenge their beliefs, but I get nauseous reading remarks and never get that far.

[Turn CO Blue]

102. No such thing as legal or illegal immigration back then

The US accepted all immigrants for hundreds of years and then treated many of them of particular race or ethnicity or nationality like 3rd class citizens or slaves or punching bags. And RACISM and PREJUDICE seems to fuel many of the objections about the immigrants' labor and quality of work and the value of having them here.

I just find that many so-called concerns about jobs and labor and unions are oftentimes a thinly veiled veneer to cover xenophobia and hate of Mexicans in particular and fear and loathing of Latinos in general. So there.

[treestar]

123. What difference does it make, the effect on the job market is the

same.

So you have no problem with H-1Bs? They are legal, after all. If there were more H-2 visas available, all of the illegals could be legal.

So that would solve the problem, right? Just make it legal wherever the person lands a job. Then the market would contain it.

[treestar]

125. What difference does it make, the effect on the job market is the

So you have no problem with H? They are legal, after all. If there were more H-2 visas available, all of the illegals could be legal.

So that would solve the problem, right? Just make it legal wherever the person lands a job. Then the market would contain it.

[northernlights]

154. oh yeah, the wonderful legal immigrants...

They don't impact the job market at all. It's only those nasty "illegals" doing our shitwork that are the problem.

Let's see...what wonderful *legal* immigrants do I know?

The brit tech writer living in subsidized Bahstan housing, because lord knows we desperately need more tech writers in the US, especially working on silicon highway, and most especially since the tech crash of 2000 threw soooo many lazy, no good american tech writers out of work. And at a tech writer salary (read: very good) she reeeeally needs to live in a rent-controlled backbay brownstone. this, too was waaaay back when housing in Mass was totally outrageously priced and unavailable. :grr:

Her aussie SO, now hubbie, taking up a high tech sales job cause lord knows we don't have enough unemployed high tech sales people in the U.S. Also living in subsidized Bahstan housing. :grr::grr: (Also going out of his way to deliberately wreck my life when he was my boss. Cost me potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars in income, which today translates into no retirement ever for me until lottery or death. Really useful piece of work. So glad that legal immigrant white trash is here. btw, he has a hate website dedicated to him. Called something like "do not date Alan Bingham, he marries for money!")

Then there's the Brazilian rightwingnutcase who aided and abetted my last employer in poisoning me, harrassing me in my home, trespassing and assaulting my animals, until they drove me to quit so they wouldn't have to lay me off for the summer and, gasp, pay unemployment. While he drives around smirking in his SUV whining about the price of gas and extolling the virtues of Bush and how the oil companies deserve their obscene profits because they earned them. :wtf:

[proud2BlibKansan]

75. Bullshit

I also can't help but note that you post a completely false statement that is more your opinion than fact and you fail to post a link to prove what you claim.

[acmavm]

97. What false fact? I can't help but noticing that you don't explain

yourself very well.

[proud2BlibKansan]

99. This:

"The illegal immigrant has undermined EVERY DAMN POSITIVE GAIN that has ever occurred for labor in this country."

Time to back it up.

[acmavm]

136. Take a look at the construction industries, meat packing, whatever.

Those were jobs that would support a family. Thanks to the illegals, they pay just above minimum wage now.

[proud2BlibKansan]

145. You mean thanks to the employers

They are the ones offering the lower pay.

[magellan]

163. The employers and their enablers in government

We would not have an "illegal immigrant problem" in this country if the same people whining about it would STOP voting against their best interests (Repubs and corporatists). The GOP and increasingly some Dems allow businesses to keep wages low by employing immigrants, legal and illegal. In return they get support in elections.

The corporatists also know if they keep products cheap then poorly paid Americans don't feel the squeeze of their bad economic policies so much, and don't complain. Meanwhile, we're all being robbed blind through cheap products and suppressed wages. And when the squeeze is felt, like now, they conveniently point the finger at illegal immigrants and make some arrests to give Americans someone to be angry with besides THEM.

Maybe I'm over-simplifying and I'm sure someone will straighten me out if so.

But it's the pro-corporate Repubs and Dems who facilitate the cheap hiring practices that cost us all in so many ways. They and the businesses involved are the ones everyone should be angry with, not the immigrants.

[proud2BlibKansan]

164. I agree

I also think if we had strictly enforced fair wage legislation we wouldn't have so many of our own citizens out of work.

[lumpy]

192. The price of homes & other construction hasn't decreased with

contracters using immigrant labor. The same with the cost of meat products, fresh & packed produce. Just bigger profits for the the employers.

[Mountainman]

78. That was said about the Chinese, Italians, Irish, Polish, Germans ........

Okies, and on and on.

[sudopod]

84. Hyperbole much? lol

You are not placing the blame where the blame is due.

[Sequoia]

101. Say there, you're one of those bitter voters holding on to your gun and religion!

I know some illegal immigrants from England....boy they sure know how to undermine my positive gain.

[LSK]

109. NO THAT WOULD BE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY

IDIOT!

[treestar]

120. Oh baloney, they aren't even numerous enough to have much

of an effect. The only effect they have is that they will work for less than minimum wage and aren't protected by anti-discrimination laws, etc. Making them legal would obviate that. So you're not against making them legal, because of the net gain to American workers, right?

[acmavm]

140. Not that numerous? 12 million? You need a math class.

[PVnRT]

121. Oh, bullshit

Tell me how they have undermined:

Minimum wage
Paid vacations
Health insurance
40-hour work week
Workplace safety

Just for starters. Not that I'm going to hold my breath for a reply.

[Arugula Latte]

161. "The illegal Immigrant" -- Oh, so there's just one of them then.

[KamaAina]

176. Replace "illegal immigrant" with "Republican Party"

and you've got a sentence that makes sense.

[Jed Dilligan]

194. So, your vision for the people who used to work

in our now-dead industries, in good union jobs, is to have them picking fruit and cleaning toilets and digging dirt and wielding leafblowers, like illegal immigrants do? Do you think former steelworkers and autoworkers will really thrive in those positions? Do you think their wives want to take over the raising of rich people's kids from the Central Americans?

[dddem]

204. I'm confused

Is it actually the illegal immigrant, or the business owner that doesn't want to pay a living wage, provide health benefits, assure worker safety and not give a shit about the worker - legal or not? Please enlighten me. By the way, Illegals do not take away American jobs. i don't know one American who would be willing to work under such conditions.
Peace.

[wtmusic]

218. The only thing that immigrants have undermined is your wages.

Guess what? There are people who are perfectly happy to work for less than you do, whether they're here in the US or elsewhere in the world. So you can accept the fact that others are capable of doing the same work you do for less (I know, it's tough) or whine about how much you "deserve".

Kee-rist.

[martymar64]

222. Substitute "illegal immigrant" with "jew"

and you'll sound just like a Goebbels speech.

While you're at it, you're sitting on land stolen from the Lakota. Give it back and go back to Ireland or Poland or wherever your ancestors came from.

[Mudoria]

55. What is an Amurikan?

Ah, I see what your're doing there. Trying to be clever.. fail

[hlthe2b]

153. Oh, dear... do we need to explain the use of "MORAN" on DU

too or any of the countless other classics we see so often from the bigots on the RW? Yes, I can certainly see that you are the clever one....:eyes:

[Rosemary2205]

7. I see the parent as the victim too.

I don't blame someone for taking the risk in exchange for a hugely better life for themselves and their children on the "wrong" side of the border. I'm more apt to blame the corps for trying to make an end run around minimum wage and labor laws by exploiting illegals, and blame the Republicans for using illegals as a tool for union busting.

[ulysses]

8. what needs to happen

is an improvement in the quality of life south of the border. When people can make a good life for themselves where they are, then they'll stay where they are. Otherwise, they won't.

[Rosemary2205]

17. That would be up to the people that live south of the border.

All that's up to me is to demand my government stop making it all but impossible for people south of the border to see to their own needs.

[KSinTX]

24. That's the answer

Instead of sending our financial mercenaries south to exploit and strip those countries of their resources, there needs to be true reform that results in mutual benefit. Paying living wages that are competitive on a US scale would leave behind the monetary wherewithall to provide infrastructure and quality of life that would stem the tide of incoming immigrants. It must also be done in a way that end runs the corruption and fraud inherent in much of these countries' political workings.

[acmavm]

30. Yeah, they'll really make a difference South of the border while

they're sitting in the US.

[ulysses]

32. in your rush to snark, you miss the point.

Or do you think that people make the life-threatening journey here in spite of having perfectly good options where they are?

[acmavm]

36. I don't miss ANYTHING. They want options? Well, stand up to the

people in their governments who are keeping them poor and disenfranchised. This is not America's or the American worker's problem. We have enough problems of our own. I work for a place that hires illegals by the butt-load. Why? Because they work cheap. They're undermined any and all gains ever made by unions and the workers in this country.

I'll save my tears for my neighbor who's looking for a job and is working temp, taking whatever he can get until he finds something permanent (if he can).

The inn is full folks. Time to realize that.

[ulysses]

38. if it's not America's problem,

then how are we supposed to stand up to their governments?

I support labor as well, but it seems to me that some in labor would do well to expand their vision. Pitting American workers against non-American workers is partly what gives us things like the maquiladoras and other outsourcing.

[davsand]

103. Uly, the real Labor movement is NOT about isolating any worker.

I dunno who this person is that is spouting this crap in here, but the Labor Movement (the real one, that is) historically was about helping ALL workers to a better life. It wasn't about racism or elitism. If you look at the population of NYC in the early 1900's immigrants and their families were the majority of the population. Just like today, immigrants faced exploitation and they joined unions to fight with unity for their rights.

SEIU and UNITE-HERE are two internationals that are still working hard for immigrants and their families. Farm Workers, of course, have always been there too. Right now, however there is a split in the Labor community on the issue of immigrants because the "hard tades" (the building trades, the teamsters and some of the other folks) are more worried abut the impact of "cheap labor" from other countries. SEIU and UNITE see the immigrant workers are potential members and they want to work for a path to legalization so they can organize those workers.

Don't think all us Labor folks are racist pigs-ok?


Laura

[ulysses]

130. oh hell, Laura, I knew that.

*Some* could use a wider vision, but I know those in need are hardly the majority.

[lapislzi]

43. Totally bass-ackwards

The people who need to be penalized are the employers, not the poor slobs trying to make a living. When your only goal is profit, profit, profit then human exploitation is a mere inconvenient by-product. It's the greed of business that is directly fomenting the immigration "problem."

Wake up. I'll bet you're one of those people who blame the poor for being poor.

[progressoid]

50. SO TURN YOUR BOSS IN TO THE AUTHORITIES!!!

Your employer is part of the problem. If you really think this is ruining America, call the INS.

And if you continue to work there and ignore it, you are just as guilty.

[proud2BlibKansan]

77. Have you reported your employer?

If you are really concerned about this, then put your money where your mouth is and report it. Otherwise, you are just a blowhard with an opinion.

[Occulus]

80. Sitting here pissing and moaning about the problem

while you, yourself, directly enable the problem

IS NOT GOOD FORM.

"I work for a place that hires illegals by the butt-load"

[underseasurveyor]

104. Where do you work?

I'll be glad to make that anonymous call for you.

My what little understanding with an extremely narrow view of the world you have. Sad really.

[PVnRT]

124. If no one would hire them, they wouldn't come here

Of course, many like you seem to think they have some ideological imperative to come up here, but whatever.

[Geek_Girl]

144. I think the Sandinistas tried and the American backed Contras crushed them.

If people south of the border stand up to there corrupt government they usually end up being slaughtered by us.

It's up to you and me to change our government so our neighbors can live and prosper.

[bean fidhleir]

249. "It's up to you and me to change our government so our neighbors can live and prosper."

And the way to do that is improve our own situation to the point where people once again feel free to agitate for change. When people feel like their jobs (and thus their lives) are in jeopardy, they tend to keep quiet. So the closer we can bring the country to having more jobs than applicants, the closer we'll be to making those changes.

It's not for nothing that the airlines tell parents to put on their own oxygen masks FIRST, if the situation arises. It's not callousness or lack of concern for the kids, it's that if the more-able go under, they're not going to be available to help the less-able.

[canucksawbones]

151. unfortunately

the US government just can't keep it's hands out of Latin America and are responsible for supporting the most reprehensible regimes in the Americas. I suggest you read the shock doctrine to see just why so many in Latin America flee their home countries. In the end you'll see the US government has been at the bottom of it all with Milton Friedman's economic policies busting the balls of the general public.

GK

[Jed Dilligan]

195. American businesses and government are substantially to blame

for most social, economic, and political problems in Latin America.

[Jed Dilligan]

196. What is he looking for a job doing?

What is the worst job he would take and at what rate of pay?

[martymar64]

224. Tell us who you work for.

We'll report them to INS and haul your bosses off to jail and shut the whole company down and sell off its parts. After all, they're supporting illegals, right?
Then you can start your own company to take it's place, that is if you have the money to do it.

Tell us who your employer is or we'll report you as an accomplice for enabling your bosses to break the law.

[ljm2002]

70. Actually they make a big difference...

...by sending money to their families down South. Their working here means their extended families can have enough to live on. And that, of course, is why they come here in the first place.

Look, there are many forces that have exported jobs, weakened or gotten rid of unions, and driven wages down. NAFTA and other agreements that do not make any requirements for decent pay or environmental concerns. Big corporations who found advantages in offshore accounts and overseas sweat shops. U.S. agriculture and other industries who discovered that "illegals" are a great source of cheap and easily intimidated labor.

The common thread is: fat cat capitalists exploiting workers.

And as long as we allow the fat cat capitalists to frame the issues, we will continue to slide further down the rabbit hole.

Now you will probably retort that the fact they are sending money away is part of the problem. But please, compare the amount of money immigrants send back home (whether they are illegal immigrants or not), with the amount of money (a) wasted in Iraq or (b) stashed in tax-free offshore accounts by Big Bidness or (c) just offhand pork barrel spending by our own government -- make a real comparison and come back to me about the terrible economic effects of these folks who like any of us, are trying to find their way in an increasingly hostile world.

[iamahaingttta]

44. What makes you assume, acmavm, that the mother is illegal?

LOTS of legals are picked up in immigration raids.

In your anger and ignorance, you are assuming that the mother is illegal.
Nothing in the OP says that the mother is illegal.
You make assumptions because you hate. You hate because you are ignorant.

But, apparently you are from Nebraska, so I'm not surprised!

(see? see how that works? I just called you a dumb hick because of where you are from. I made an assumption. doesn't feel that great, now does it?)

[acmavm]

53. Actually, I don't care what you think. You make assumptions

every day just like everyone else. In this case the only assumption I'm making is that a child is upset because her mother got picked up for more than likely, in fact probably, breaking the law.

[kmla]

Perhaps. But then again, by your own admission, your employer is breaking the law as well...

Have you reported your employer to the proper authorities? Or are you content to trade your walk on part in a war for a lead role in a cage? (My apologies to David Gilmour and Roger Waters.)

If you are indeed displeased with the effect that illegal immigrants are having on the effect of the labor market (per your argument), couldn't you put a stop to it in this case?

After all, when it comes to immigration, the law is always definitely black and white, with no room for compassion or empathy when being interpreted. :eyes:

[acmavm]

68. People who work here call all the time. But pay attention because

I'm getting pretty bored with this thread.

I sit at the front desk of a branch of a manufacturing firm. Day after fucking day I sit here and listen to the people who come in saying that they need work and that they will take ANYTHING at all. ANYTHING. They're not being picky like the bullshit line pro-illegal immigrant fans like to make it sound. They say they'll do ANYTHING. This SHIT 'they're taking jobs that American won't do' is just that. SHIT. Spelled in capital letters.

I won't spend one minute crying over illegals being picked up when I see so many of my countrymen and women out looking and begging for work.

[martymar64]

225. Then go tell your boss

that'll you'll turn him in to INS for harboring illegal immigrants. I'm sure he'll see the error of his ways and fire them all RIGHT NOW!

[sudopod]

86. "Actually, I don't care what you think."

then why are you on a discussion board, um, discussing it with us? :p

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

168. Because she's getting her ass handed to her on a platter, so suddenly it all becomes "unimportant."

(Edited for correct gender)

[Richard Steele]

223. Exactly. nm

[treestar]

116. There are also forms of relief that people can apply for

Like asylum. Oddly enough, some can end up legal because of it. But then that's very restrictive.

[Forkboy]

57. Your liberal empathy is touching.

Brings a tear to my eye.

[Sequoia]

98. Listen to the "real American" here. What tribe are you with or

did your ancestors come to this land on a ship legally?

[PVnRT]

126. I'm assuming that all his ancesters magically appeared on this continent

Intelligent design?

[Sequoia]

149. Or those alien types Tom Cruise believes in.

[acmavm]

137. You betcha my ancestors came here legally. And so did yours, across

the Bering Strait.

[Sequoia]

148. No, we were already here. Bering Strait people came later.

[undeterred]

105. Wow.

Just wow.

[T Monk]

108. see the film 'Babel' to get an idea of the consequences of a bigoted immigration policy

[Cleita]

171. Bigotry is alive and well still at DU.

Our racist immigration laws are what is causing this problem. This is whom the OP should be mad at, US!

[galledgoblin]

244. your anger should be directed at NAFTA

and the politicians who still have not reformed it to protect labor rights or abolished it outright... as well as the Goddamned "School of Americas" or whatever they renamed it and all our illegal wars and exploitation in Latin America.

[Rosemary2205]

3. What a mess

I wish the US government would enforce it's labor and immigration laws by giving such enormous fines or even jail time to business owners that exploit illegal immigrants rather than do these stupid raids. These families would self deport when the jobs dry up and families would be able to stay together.

[elizfeelinggreat]

10. That's the truth

how come that's so obvious to some and not to others? I mean, it's as plain as the nose on their face - we have laws that are being enforced unequally - horribly so. Why are these government agencies being downsized and dismantled and privatized when simply using them as intended could mean they'd pay for themselves (in fines collected)?

Once again it's follow the money.

[SammyWinstonJack]

35. Cheap labor is what it's all about.

[Ms. Toad]

11. Better yet,

Let's stop treating the right to choose where to live and work as being tied to the geographical location of one's birth (or one's parents', grandparents', etc. births).

[Rosemary2205]

15. I disagree

I am just simply not a "borderless society" advocate. Humans have always felt the need to protect the resources that supplies their own families and communities.

[Ms. Toad]

193. Unfortunately,

protecting the tribe against outsiders is a large part of why we keep being involved in wars. If we work on making the pie bigger (or curbing our appetites), there will be far less need to beat each other up.

[bread_and_roses]

210. that doesnt' work out too bad for the Americans using something like 20% of the world's resources

with something like 5% of the world's population - not so well for much of the rest of the world.

[Echo In Light]

5. "Family values" at work

:-(

[noel711]

9. I see this all over Allentown....

little group of kids who come to our Sunday school events...
struggling family headed by grandma because mom's in jail...

and what kind of compassion does our country show them?

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zywiec]

18. Yes, it's only (R)epublicans that have issues with illegal aliens

:eyes:

[Rosemary2205]

20. As a union supporter I (R)eally have a problem with it.

America has allowed business to bust unions and destroy living wage union jobs by exploiting illegal labor. I see nothing wrong with demanding business treat American workers fairly while at the same time we stand in solidarity with workers around the world.

I'm told that makes me a f(R)eeper.

[sudopod]

25. I think you and I are on the same page

I think we both agree that the exploitation of undocumented immigrants must end, and that change both in their home countries and here must be undertaken to decrease the tide of incoming people, both to relieve our strained social safety net and to stop the loss of hard-working, intelligent people from those nations.

Also, I think we both agree that there are ways to do this that don't involve thugs busting down doors at work places and homes to drag off parents of US citizens in handcuffs.

When I say "angry (R)etards," I'm not talking about you. ;)

[madokie]

229. I guess that would make me one too

[macracan]

61. Not really

I abhor republicans, yet I have issues with illegal immigrants. They should come here legally. True, our laws should be better, in the sense that we should allow (AND HAVE CONTROL OVER) temporary workers more easily, but barring that breaking the law is breaking the law! (unless that is the speed law which is bullshit anyway)

[sinkingfeeling]

67. But who is breaking the law? The employer of those without green cards or those who are

employed?

[TCJ70]

113. How about both?

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bdamomma]

14. this is just shameful

how long before they come for us, when is that net going to expand to trap all of us. The country has lost its soul.

[lightningandsnow]

16. That's awful.

Poor kid. Poor mom.

:(

[Stuart G]

21. Just think if this were 100 years ago...and

Immigration and Naturalization existed...how many of our grandparents, greatgrandparents..etc..would be rounded up..

oh that is right..the laws were different then..all you had to be was tuberculosis free, able to read (any language)., and be able to stay at Ellis Island for two weeks...............that is it..sure is a better country now that we have the immigration laws..sure........

[Stuart G]

23. and it is true what someone else said........we have lost our soul..

[Raejeanowl]

48. The Intent Of The Immigrants Was Different, Too

It can no longer be said that virtually 100% intend to stay here permanently, rather than exploit and be exploited. The transient factor is now extreme and impacting the economy, business, education, even the language in strange ways.

[datasuspect]

52. bullshit

immigrants in the past retained their native folkways, languages, and ties to their home countries.

true assimilation doesn't happen until the second generation anyway.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

173. And not all of them stayed in the U.S.

Just take my own family, for instance.

My paternal grandfather and his brother both came to the U.S. from Norway in the 1890s. The brother went back after two years.

[Bill McBlueState]

60. how did they measure intent?

Has some agency been surveying immigrants for all these years to determine what their intent is upon entering the country?

Or are you just guessing?

[DogPoundPup]

26. Our psyche is intentionally being beaten down 50,000 different ways

Thanks God.

[LWolf]

27. No words are needed.

:grr:

This year, interestingly enough, I have dealt with blatant racism directed towards hispanic students. I hear students spouting rw bullshit about "mexicans taking over" and have had several meetings with my small group of hispanic students and our admin, to give them support and discuss how to address a growing problem.

This week, an 8th grader came into the room with friends saying, "They MAKE us take Spanish in high school because of all the Mexicans." Of course, I debunked that. It's really hard, though, to overcome a foundation of racism that comes from home. The best we achieve is some surface tolerance and a bigger effort to save racist remarks for off school grounds.

All of this has burst, like a boil, just this year. Previously, while there were examples of cultural insensitivity, racism wasn't evident. I'm betting that the firing up of "illegals" as a republican issue during an election cycle has fed it.

[bean fidhleir]

83. "I hear students spouting rw bullshit about "mexicans taking over""

You can read similar statements by Hispanics in the US, though not necessarily ethnic Mexicans, glorifying the high Hispanic birth- and immigration rates. They trumpet the fact that they're aiming to be the majority ethnic group and that they've already become more numerous than Black people.

What about that?

[sudopod]

87. All Hispanics think exactly alike.

They're just like the Borg, except with tacos.

:sarcasm:

[bean fidhleir]

90. You completely missed the point, didn't you.

[sudopod]

93. There was a point

other than an ill-defined unitary "they" saying supposedly menacing things?

[bean fidhleir]

150. Several

1. The truth is never racist, it's just the truth.

2. If it's true, it might very well be racist (of the bend-over-backwards type) to refuse to look at it.

3. It's not racism to resent being pushed aside, even if the pushers are an identifiable ethnic group.

[sudopod]

231. OH LOL

The truth, eh?

:eyes:

[keroro gunsou]

185. and better tequilla

and let's face it, have you ever sampled borg tequilla... :evilgrin:

sucks for the kid and his/her family, but seriously, the family should have tried to get their citizenship. the fact that the kid was in school seems to purport that the family wanted to stay and contribute to society. for all those that want to do that, i say let them. help them become citizens and do just that...

we, and by we i mean this country, need to make is a little easier for immigrants legal or not to become citizens. i don't want to generalize, but in this case it's unavoidable, most of them are just trying to get out of a bad situation in their own country and america is a better deal most of the time. however, i am mindful of those that are troublemakers. if they commit crimes, let 'em get prosecuted, serve their time, then deport 'em.

this is not an easy issue to crack, but it is an issue that needs attending to... and by attending to it, i don't mean using it as a wedge or an excuse to justify one's own particular bigotry.

[sudopod]

232. I'm more of a Romulan Ale guy, myself. :3

Otherwise, what you said. ^_^

[LWolf]

189. Having lived most of my life in So Cal,

where hispanics are not a minority in many areas, I can honestly say that I've never heard that before.

I have heard them get frustrated with being called "Mexican," when they, or their families, didn't actually come from Mexico, this generation or previously.

[bean fidhleir]

203. I saw a flurry of it after the Census in 2006 reported that Hispanics were (then) at 15%

for the first time more numerous than Black folks who were 14%. Latin-owned marketing firms (e.g. http://www.hispansource.org/, http://www.ahorre.com/hispanicinfo.htm) crow that within 10 years Hispanics will represent 25% of the population, and a number of heated statements about taking over are documented by Snopes (http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/hispanic.asp). You can also find among Hispanic-identified bloggers assumptions about the new "reconquista", and at least one book (The Hispanic Manifest Destiny) that claims "it is in the twenty-first century that Hispanics will take their rightful place in the hemisphere, in a march from South to North, dominating the New World in its entirety as first envisioned by Pope Alexander VI in 1494.".

I suspect you haven't heard it from your students because the consciousness is still limited to politically militant adults and those who feed off them.

[LWolf]

227. Probably.

I didn't hear it from any of the many hispanic adults in my neighborhood, or who worked with me, or who were friends, either.

Since I moved north, and have worked in a tiny rural, white monoculture, I've celebrated the appearance of more diverse people. I'm more at home that way.

Some whose little community is changing see that change as threatening.

I don't.

[TCJ70]

94. Do they make the kids take Spanish? n/t

[LWolf]

190. No.

Foreign language is offered to the college bound; Spanish, French, and a couple others.

For students who choose to attend one of the small school-within-a-school "academies," foreign language is a graduation requirement. It doesn't have to be Spanish.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

177. Oregon is terrible that way, especially outside of Portland

Your student obviously didn't know that high schools in Oregon are required to offer a foreign language and that it is required for college admission in the state U. system.

When I lived in small town Oregon, there were two competing trends:

1. Terrible racism against Latinos, legal and illegal. I could tell stories.

2. Increasing numbers of inter-ethnic relationships on the part of the local teenagers.

Maybe some of the racism there will die down when every family in town has Latino in-laws.

[xchrom]

28. recommend -- sorry this has happened -- it's just a tragedy.

i feel for this child -- the child's family and you the teacher who has reached out and tried to help create a better universe for this child.

[terip64]

33. She's lucky to have you. Thank you for being such a good teacher.

I gave it up 10 years ago because I couldn't keep up the pace with my own three kids. I know how hard you work and how much this will affect you. I will be thinking of you, the little girl and her family.

I know it sounds cold, but remember you can't save them all. That is part of why I hard to quit, because I couldn't accept that. I was emotionally and physically drained. Try and take some time to rejuvenate yourself this summer so you can be there next year for these kids. You may be the most consistent thing in some of their worlds. May the force be with you! ;)

[Zywiec]

34. Will you be able to raise funds at the school so the daughter can be reunited with the mother? n/t

[Redbear]

37. Thanks for telling us. I hurt for that little girl.

Im glad she has teacher who cares about her so much.

[terip64]

39. kick

[macracan]

46. Don't worry

She'll be back in US within a month after being deported; that is if she's ever deported...

Would you be so furious if her mom were, I don't know, fired from her job and being replaced by a cheaper illegal? Would you be so furious if this girl wasn't your best student? What's wrong with south of the border countries having good students there too?

[proud2BlibKansan]

81. Oh she'll be deported

The way the system works now is once you are picked up, you can post a $5000 bail and when you check in at the border on your way out of the country, you get your bail back. If you don't have the bail, and the US pays for your transport to the border, you can never come back. If you bail out, you can still get a green card to come back (after waiting a very long time of course).

I have seen dozens of our parents deported and not one has ever come back. It's like a death. These are very poor families who can't afford to travel back to visit the deported family members. So for all practical purposes, these parents are dead to their children.

[treestar]

122. No such thing ever happens except in RW imagination

So if the plant where she works closes down, don't some Americans lose their jobs?

Why is it that conservatives always love capitalism until it comes to the cost of labor? Then they want protection from competition for themselves.

I guess if they moved the plant to Mexico, that would be "wrong" too?

[Raejeanowl]

47. Who Is the Object Of Your Anger?

The immigration officials enforcing the law or the mother flouting it?

[acmavm]

58. Don't bother. This crowd doesn't see the reality of the situation.

They are what I call the Utopians. They think we can take care of the world. Of course, it doesn't matter if it hurts American workers. They just want to fly their "Let 'em all in" flags and all is good as long as they have theirs.

[Chulanowa]

69. You realize it only "hurts American workers" because people like you insist on laws that make it so?

Illegals only hurt American jobs because they are outside the system, thus enabling employers to ignore wage and labor laws to employ them - and then call the INS once payday comes around. It's this "you're from somewhere else, so you're a lesser being" mentality that enables these businesses to do that.

If it were the other way - if these immigrants received solidarity from American workers, it would increase our overall prosperity - more labor means more voices for bargaining power. Instead, people seem to want a "Fuck the Irish!" policy in their unions and workplace, guaranteeing inequality, employer abuses, and lowered quality for "legal" labor.

It's a self-perpetuating problem, and it's people like yourself who are at the center. Without you, the corporates wouldn't be able to use and abuse "illegal" labor to the extent they do.

[acmavm]

96. People like ME cause the abuse? Thank you. You gave me

something to laugh about for the rest of the day.

[PVnRT]

127. What? Your own fucking stupidity?

If you're the brand of Democrat that Nebraska creates, no wonder we never have a chance there.

[bean fidhleir]

157. I'm amazed at how much misinformation you managed to pack into that post

You have everything exactly backwards. When there are more applicants than jobs, the bosses pay less. More people means LESS bargaining power, not more! What do you suppose the H1B visas are for, if not to increase the pool of desperate workers?

The only way more people might mean more bargaining power is if bargaining involved physical threat.

[The Straight Story]

71. No, we see the reality of it - you just fail to see the humanity of it

People like bush and all associated with him in the defense industry get away with murder and robbing us blind, and some women who came here to make her life better and contribute to our society by buying our goods is arrested. Sure, she crossed some imaginary line in the dirt, and sure we have laws on the books against that - but we have a lot of other laws we are not really enforcing all that much either. We spend a lot of money on this law, probably less than we do on enforcing others.

I'd rather my money go to stopping the real threats to me and my safety, gangs, psycho's, punishing the employers who hire illegals, organized crime, etc.

Taking a mom from her kid because she did not fill out some paperwork to come here is not what I call a priority.

[maryf]

79. Of course Americans are the best and only humans...

and entitled to whatever they want including as much of the world's resources as they can consume...:sarcasm:

[sudopod]

88. BAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWw

mean ol liberals.

[LSK]

110. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT ILLEGALS ARE SCAPEGOATS FOR GOP POLICY???

You are a total sucker!

If the GOP didnt go around busting unions, our wages and labor standards would be much much higher.

But blame the illegals. It cant be the fault of the pasty rich fat fucking white guy who wants to slash wages left and right. It must be the fault of the brown people. Yeah thats it.

:eyes:

[acmavm]

142. People, people, people, try not to be so obtuse.Of course I understand

the wrongs of corporate America. But I just got off for the day and I passed a guy standing by the interstate exit with a sign 'will work for food'. That's where my sympathies lie. And with the homeless Americans sleeping in tents or in their cars. And with the people who come in everyday begging for work. And with the old and infirm doing without adequate nutrition and medical care.

For people who's very first act coming into this country was to break the law? No.

[treestar]

158. Pick him up and take him to the fields to get a job

But seriously, do you really think that guy is there because of illegal aliens? He's probably there due to mental illness.

The economy does not work this way. Even illegals working are not depriving Americans of jobs. The total number of jobs available is not static.

If you are renting an apartment for $500 in a ten unit building, the landlord makes $5,000. and one of the tenants moves out never to return, the landlord only makes $4,500. Does the landlord then raise the rent on the remaining tenants?

If you are really so concerned about Americans, why advocate shrinkage of the economy? In fact, why not advocate visas for them, so that the playing field will be level (Americans "can't" work for less than minimum wage or under certain minimum conditions).

As for breaking the law to come, it's only an immigration law, don't be so dramatic. You'd do the same in their shoes. You were just born lucky and didn't even have to face that choice. Americans are overly judgmental on that score, because they never had to and probably never will have to consider what they'd do in the situation.

[treestar]

114. So would you have said that of the floods of Irish who came to

the U.S. in the 19th century?

The problem with that RW talking point is that it's not true. We don't "take care" if immigrants.

With our lowering birth rate, they will end up taking care of us.

[nini]

152. You can see the reality AND be sympathic to the child

Can't you?

[acmavm]

181. You bet your ass I feel sorry for that child. And I hold the mother totally

responsible.

[ulysses]

182. would you feel sorry for the child

if her parents had kept her in poverty in Guatemala?

[bean fidhleir]

221. You know, generally it's the better-off who come here. The truly poor

don't have the wherewithal to pull up stakes like that. They are FULLY occupied trying to survive. Look at the people who come here from India - maybe 1 in 10000 is a Dalit/Untouchable. They can't afford it. The ones who come are the ones who have resources.

So the idea that a family that comes here was "living in poverty in Guatamala" generally isn't true by Guatamalan standards. Those who come here are the ones who know about the US, maybe have relatives here, and certainly have the resources to fund the trip. They're the more common economic migrant: they just want more than they're getting back home.

[ulysses]

241. I'm not sure I buy that.

Just to begin with, there's a lot of money that flows southward from the States that might enable members of those families to come our way.

[bean fidhleir]

246. "there's a lot of money that flows southward from the States"

Sure, but from whom? Again, the better-off relatives, who had the wherewithal to pull up stakes and come north to begin with. The very idea of moving to some other country requires a fairly cosmopolitan, educated worldview and all kinds of physical, mental, and emotional resources. A truly poor person, living hand-to-mouth, doesn't have them unless they've fallen on hard times after having been better-off.

[ulysses]

250. it may well take a cosmopolitan worldview to move to another country

because one prefers, say, the atmosphere of Provence to that of Waxahatchie. I don't at all know that it takes such a worldview in order to move to another country because one has no economic prospects where one currently is. And the idea that the truly poor don't move because they're too busy feeding themselves flies in the face of several millennia of human history.

[bean fidhleir]

251. Rather than continue exchanging thought experiments, I decided to see whether

there was any solid information about migrants.

"The vast majority of undocumented migrants from Mexico were gainfully employed before they left for the United States. Thus, failure to find work at home does not seem to be the primary reason that the estimated 6.3 million undocumented migrants from Mexico have come to the U.S."

http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=58

Mexicans account for over half the economic migration.


In the Pew stat survey of the Hispanic population (pdf), the preferred occupations for foreign-born Hispanics are, in order:

Construction and extraction(?): 2.12M
Installation, repair, and production: 2.14M
Cleaning and maintenance: 1.63M
Food prep and serving: 1.24M
Transportation and material moving: 1.18M

It's interesting that Latin visibility is greatest in cleaning and food prep even tho there are more than twice as many working in the higher-status occupations.

Kalena Cortes at Princeton found (http://econpapers.repec.org/scripts/redir.pl?u=ftp%3A%2F%2Frepec.iza.org%2FRePEc%2FDiscussionpaper%2Fdp1063.pdf;h=repec:iza:izadps:dp1063) that economic migrants tend to be working-age people, particularly young males, while refugees tend to mirror the demogs of their home country. Econ migrants invest less in learning English, less in education, and tend to, for want of a better term, "use" the US before returning home.

Not many people are refugees these days; most are econ migrants.

Other research (I found it but can't find it again) suggests that econ migration is becoming "feminized" as young women choose to leave their families and come here to make money awhile.


On balance, the information I can find does NOT paint a picture of impoverished, downtrodden people coming here in a last-ditch attempt to survive, as the DU heartstring-tuggers would represent them.

[Bluerthanblue]

178. can I ask you Acmavm-

what makes you feel entitled to seek a decent life, in preference to other people?

I have relatives that came over on the mayflower (not shittin you)- but that says absolutely nothing about why I should claim to have more 'right' to living life than anyone else.

This earth wasn't formed with human boundaries in place- they are OUR invention. And they cause more strife and sorrow than most of us realize.

Yeah- "America, land of the free"- but this is also the land where you face being arrested if you don't have a home, or an apartment. There is no 'free' place for an American to legally spend the night, if they are not the guest of someone, or paying money to use someone else's 'space'.

I'm an American NOT by any "merit" of my own- but by pure dumb CHANCE- 'luck' if you will. And if you aren't an Immigrant, so are you. That doesn't make us any better- or even more entitled- to life- that "INALIENABLE" right "Utopian" President Lincoln reminded us this country was established to protect. We are any closer to their "Ideal" IMO-

We are all members of the human race.
When we help each other we help everyone.

peace~

"you may say I'm a dreamer- but I'm not the only one.........."

[WindRiverMan]

219. I need to clarify something here...

You are NOT an American by accident, you are an AMERICAN by the blood of men and women willing to stand up against tyranny, oppression, and take the risk to live their beliefs. Now please don't think I am saying that our forefathers were perfect, we all know that they were not, but they stood up and fought for their values, or like your ancestors, jumped in a boat and faced the odds to come here.

I like Thom Hartman's view on illegal immigration, Mexico, especially. Mexico is an oligarchy, run by less than 20 families who have all of the weatlh. Fifty percent of the population is poor, and fifty percent of the poor are third world poor. If you tried to start a business, the taxes on new business owners is essentially dehabilitating. Taxes on exiting businesses aint so bad.

It is NOT American's fault that Mexico is an oligarchy, it has been that way for years. We don't help. Allowing Mexican immigrant to come here does two things:

1) Acts as pressure valve that keeps the oppressed from uprising

2) Exploits the workers as most of them work for minimum wage or less, no insurance, no benefits, etc. It is pretty darned close to modern day slavery, and we tolerate it so corporate pigs can get cheap labor.

What disgusts me as a democrat, is the weakness shown by my fellow party members. My grandfather's were both coal miners, met Mother Jones, unionized, were shot at, starved, and persucted by big bussiness. My great grandfather was at the Ludlow Massacre, and I know hardhsip and poverty myself. We are so namby pamby, feel good, peace and love, we forgot that sometimes you have to fight for yourself instead of rolling over and pissing yourself like a beaten dog. The Mexican people need to fight, uprise, and demand change. WE DID IT! YOU ENJOY YOUR LIBERTIES TO SOME EXTENT BECAUSE MY GRANDFATHER PICKED UP A RIFLE AND FOUGHT ROCKERFELLER'S MILITIA AT LUDLOW. ITS ONE OF THE REASONS WE HAVE A FORTY HOUR WEEK AND SOCIAL SECURITY!

Wake up! We could easily solve the immigration problem by helping their people demand reform, but we don't. We don't because corportists love cheap labor. The current immigration policies help no one, they releave pressure, but offer no real solution, and in my opinion (yes, this is all just conjencture and opinion on my part) plays directly into the hands of the Republicans.

Demand the Mexican people stand up for themselves, and demand your government help them. Then, and only then, will true progress occur.

[Bluerthanblue]

228. I need to clear something up myself-

the fact that "I"= the person who inhabits the body known as "blu"- was born into a nation known as America, where I was afforded the chance to grow from vulnerable helpless infant to adulthood, and then have the opportunities presented to me as opposed to a child born in Somalia, or Haiti or Bangladesh WAS pure 'chance'.
There was nothing 'special' or 'good' or 'worthy' in ME that is lacking in any other being on this planet.

I understand what you are trying to say- and I don't argue that this country didn't simply "happen"- it is what it is because of the lives of those who lived and struggled and sacrificed to make it work. But our actions as a nation have also brought suffering and disaster to those who stood in the way of "progress"- The Native Americans for example.

And to a degree, it IS our fault that Mexico is what it is today. There are factions within our government who work to manipulate the governments of other countries- (We helped Saddam become leader of Iraq for example)- and we armed and trained the "Northern Alliance" in Afghanistan as part of 'our' battle in 'the cold war'. The people of Afghanistan suffered as a result-

We also tend to 'use' citizens of other countries to do work that is dangerous and hazardous, - and they do it, because they are desperate.

I do agree that if we focused our efforts fighting "illegal immigration" more on helping people to be able to live in their 'native' land - would be the best solution. But that is more than unionizing their labor- it means curbing the capitalistic greed and power America has grown fat on- and that seems pretty hard to imagine happening.

peace~

[ulysses]

230. !

Demand the Mexican people stand up for themselves, and demand your government help them.

I believe that this was well-addressed by Bluerthanblue, but just wanted to add that 1) it's a little laughable to demand that anyone else stand up for themselves when we've been on our faces with our asses in the air for so long (it's been a long time since Ludlow) and 2) the idea that our current government would help the Mexican or Central American poor rise up against their own oligarchy isn't even worth two shits.

[northernlights]

155. obviously...

the stupid mother, not staying home and starving, while watching her child starve. :eyes:

[Jed Dilligan]

198. You know

When the money dries up and the pigs lose their power and control, it will be the people who cling to them for security and gratification of their hateful egos who are up against the wall, motherfucker.

[tnlefty]

49. So what happens with her now?

Who will be caring for her?

The salutatorian of my son's senior class was deported before she could even graduate. She is Korean, extremely bright and the kids really enjoyed having her around. Apparently a mistake was made in the paper work to extend her visa.

I realize this isn't the same situation as the one you've mentioned, but some of this 'round'em up and deport'em' pisses me off.

[Zywiec]

65. I thought the OP could raise funds to reunite the daughter and mother

in the mother's country of origin. But I assume by the lack of reply, this isn't an option.

[ulysses]

135. I have no idea what's needed.

The whole family is here - my student and her siblings are US citizens.

[Zywiec]

139. Is being here more important than being with their mother? n/t

[ulysses]

141. ? I don't presume to speak for the family.

[EFerrari]

54. I'm sorry, ulysses.

:hug:

[yardwork]

62. I am so sorry for your student and her family!

It's a crime the way that people are being treated by this government. Someday people will look back at this and feel ashamed.

[davsand]

66. Uly, is there other family to care for the child? Does this mean child services gets called?

I am completely not familiar with the laws on this kind of thing, but my first thought was about who is gonna take care of that child. I duuno what your foster system is like there but ours is not especially good here in Illinois.

If she has other family there to care for her that is usually the preferred choice. If not, is there anyone in the school or any other adult that can file for temporary custody to protect that little girl and her interests?

I share your anger at our messed up system. This kind of story is WAY too common. Seems to me we have a long ways to go if we want to call our nation "civilized" when we are keeping a child from a parent just because of some paperwork that is missing or undone.

Can we do anything to help from here at DU?



Laura

[ulysses]

132. her dad's still here.

She talked to him on the phone a little while ago, and I'm told he's working to get in touch with his wife. I'll let you know what I find out, which probably won't be much as we don't see the kids after today.

[davsand]

147. I am glad she has someone and not just all of us.

That poor baby! I just can't imagine how she must feel.

:cry:


Hang in there, love. I think YOU rock for caring so much about your kids, BTW!


Laura

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. Damn

We have had a rush of deportations here lately. I posted a thread a week or so ago. My friend the immigration attorney says they are deporting 3800 a month out of this area alone.

We just heard about another parent yesterday. Now his wife is left here with 3 kids, one of whom is seriously disabled. She can't find a day care for him and will have to quit her job to stay home and care for him. She and her husband had alternated their work schedules because of this child. Now that she is a single parent our tax dollars will be feeding her children.

Yes there are state services available to help her with day care. But since she is not a US citizen (but all of her children are) her kids get no services.

How is this helping? :mad:

[Javaman]

76. To quote John Meloncamp...

"ain't that america, for you and me, ain't that america home of the freeeeee, yeahhhh, little pink houses for you and me".

we live in such totally fucked up times.

[blondeatlast]

89. God, ulysses, I'm so sorry. Caring sucks--but I'm glad people like you and I do it.

:hug:

[ulysses]

183. I am too, dear one.

:hug:

[Irishonly]

91. I am sorry n/t

[Sequoia]

95. What will she do? Why must we treat humans this way!!!

[hunter]

106. It's too bad we can't deport asshole Americans.

We should have laws that any undocumented worker caught in an immigration raid becomes a citizen, and the people who hired them forfeit assets equal to a substantial multiple of the amount the undocumented worker was paid, to be split evenly between the new citizens and the social security system.

If a meat packing plant, for example, has been hiring illegal aliens for ten years, maybe they would be fined ten times the wages they paid to those workers, and half the money collected would be distributed among the new citizens. If the meat packing plant goes bankrupt, and the stockholders lose all their money, and the managers who hired illegal aliens lose their jobs, well boo-fucking-hoo.

[TCJ70]

107. "If the meat packing plant goes bankrupt..."

Then everybody loses their jobs! Woo Hoo!!

[hunter]

129. No, somebody buys it cheap.

And if they can't make a profit without hiring undocumented workers, then it is a business that should be dead. Isn't that how capitalism works? What kind of upside down world is it where workers subsidize stockholders?

[OneBlueSky]

112. much of the "problem" with illegals stems from our tendency to separate people . . .

into various groups based on race, religion, nationality, economic status, sexual orientation, or whatever in order to find someone to blame for our difficulties . . . we seem to forget that we're all just humans, with pretty much the same basic needs that we seek to fulfill for ourselve and our families in whatever way our circumstances allow us to . . . for many so-called "illegals," this means entering the U.S. to find work and to get away from the abject poverty and political corruption in their home countries . . . which of us wouldn't do the same if faced with the same set of circumstances? . . .

"Us vs. Them" may be satisfying psychologically, but it has little to do with reality . . . there really is no "them" -- we're all just "us" . . .

[TCJ70]

115. If we're all just "us"...

...then we all have to follow the rules. Right? Why should some of "us" be allowed to break those rules, even to escape abject poverty?

Should we say that it's OK to steal bread from your neighbors home if your family is starving? After all, we'd all do that if we were in the same situation...right?

[treestar]

117. It may not be "OK" but it would happen

I love it when people claim they would die for their kids - what, they wouldn't break an immigration law for them?

Of course you'd steal bread for your kids if you had to.

[maryf]

131. If all were as human as they could be

The neighbors would offer to share their food, the survival instinct is our animal side, "the good neighbor" instinct is what makes us human. (And yes, I know of many cases where "animals" have proven themselves to be far more human). "what you do unto the least of my brethern you do unto me", Matthew 25 "do not ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee" (from "No man is an island")

[bunkerbuster1]

118. Her mom was "Illegal"

which is to say, in the eyes of those who use that term as a noun, less than human.

I'm very sorry to hear about this. Dramas like this are played out every damn day in our nation.

[ulysses]

156. appreciate all the intersest in the thread.

It's been a long day, for JV especially. I hope she's greeted at home with something like good news.

[Unvanguard]

159. That's awful. We need to stop this, one way or another.

Treating human beings in this way in unacceptable.

[Disturbed]

166. Illegal Immigration

Illegal Immigration

*The following was posted by pat_k.
Controlling our borders isn't really about control; it's about values

"Controlling our borders" means more than erecting barriers or patrolling. Controlling our borders is about making a commitment to act in a manner that is consistent with our values.

When we set employment standards we are expressing our values. Those standards reflect our belief that all human beings have a right to be treated fairly.

As long as we allow ANY workers to be exploited within our borders, we disgrace ourselves. As long as we turn a blind eye to the violations committed by people who enter illegally or remain after their visa expires, we demonstrate hypocrisy.

Guest worker programs have a place, but too often; such programs have been used to give employers a ticket to pay substandard wages and subject workers to unsafe conditions. We cannot tolerate programs that set different standards for "guests."

To be consistent with American values, we need to "just say no" to the exploitation workers -- documented or not. Continuing to permit predatory employers to operate within our borders will only drive more and more of Us and "Them" into poverty.

Controlling our borders with the stroke of a pen

Building a wall takes time. We don't need to wait. We can effectively control immigration with the stroke of a pen by passing legislation that includes two basic elements:
Going after predatory employers.
Offering a path to citizenship for whistleblowers and their families.

Specifically:
Expand the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) to cover every business and individual employer, whether they employ documented or undocumented workers.
Conditions and terms of employment must meet FLSA and safety requirements for any wage earner who meets the criteria that would require reporting under IRS rules (e.g, the IRS threshold this year is $1500 for most of work).
Criminalize predatory employment practices.
Predatory employers who are violating FLSA, violating OSHA standards, and evading taxes must be subject to prosecution and mandatory prison time.
Whistleblower immigration amnesty.
Clear processes for workers to report predatory employers and maintain anonymity throughout the course of investigation. Whistleblowers who are undocumented (whether an individual or a group) are offered a path to citizenship.
Increase resources and create special units as required
Affected agencies would include the Dept of Labor Wage and Hour Division, Dept of Justice, OSHA, IRS, and INS. The Wage and Hour Division is probably the logical agency to oversee the handling of charges against predatory employers, including preliminary investigation, referral to Justice for investigation and prosecution, referral to IRS, and coordination with INS to process undocumented whistleblowers and other undocumented workers.”

Making implicit costs explicit

“The harmful effects of supporting an underground economy are costly to the nation. When we "just say no" to the exploitation workers, some implicit costs will be made explicit. Americans have a choice. We can invest our tax dollars to our common benefit, or bear the costs -- both moral and monetary -- of exploiting other human beings.

If we choose make predatory employers the prime target, we can ensure the survival of vital "underground economy" sectors by providing transitional supports. We can offset increased costs of goods or services to the working class through tax credits. (Should be part of shifting the costs of citizenship from those who benefit the least from our common infrastructure to those who benefit the most.)”

Radically changing the rules of the game

“If predatory employers faced serious penalties, and the undocumented workers they are exploiting benefited from blowing the whistle, we would significantly increase the risk of exploiting workers.

The threat of exposure and prosecution alone will be sufficient for many to revamp their operations. In some sectors, the predators may simply move operations offshore. In others, predators may be forced out of business. As noted above, it may serve the public interest to provide transition assistance or start up assistance for replacement businesses.

Undoubtedly, a significant percent of undocumented workers would continue to evade detection, but employers would be far less likely to exploit them. If the workers are making a fair wage, the "race to the bottom" has a lower limit and the negative effect on wages is reduced.”

We have a right enforce immigration law and deport violators

“There are situations in which our interests are best served by providing an alternative to deportation. Nevertheless, if it does not serve a public interest to provide an alternative we should not hesitate to deport those who violate immigration laws.

We have a right to enforce our immigration laws. When we shift our focus to predatory employers, we are not forfeiting that right.

Offering legal status to whistleblowers serves us in two vital ways -- it deters predatory employers and it gives authorities vital resources "on the ground" who are motivated to expose those who are not deterred.

Targeting predatory employers creates a new class of unemployable undocumented workers If we do not institute a program that offers an opportunity to achieve legal (employable) status to those who are displaced, the deportation and support costs are likely to rise to intolerable levels.

If we decide that minimizing competition for jobs is worth the costs associated with deportation, the number of families who are offered legal status could be limited by entering those who qualify a "lottery" of sorts. It may seem harsh to allow chance to determine who stays and who goes, but deportation must remain the default consequence of breaking our immigration laws.”

First things first

We can't begin to make progress until we impeach Bush and Cheney and purge the new American fascists from our public institutions ((Impeachment First)). Only then can we effectively engage in the messy -- but democratic -- process of dealing with this and other critical problems.

Conclusion

“Our underground economy makes the United States very attractive to people who are struggling to survive in their own countries. We can change the dynamics right now and virtually eliminate the underground economy, and in the process, minimize the incentive to enter this country unlawfully.

Saying no to the exploitation of workers is central to controlling our borders. Radically changing the rules of the game makes other aspects of controlling immigration more manageable, but it does not eliminate the need for them. We still need to do a better job of tracking the foreign nationals who come here to work, study, or visit. We still need to make our border with Mexico as impenetrable as possible, while weighing the costs against the benefits.

We cannot continue to hypocritically turn a blind eye to violations of our immigration laws or tolerate the exploitation of workers within our borders. As is often the case, committing to enacting and enforcing laws that that reflect our values is not just the right thing to do, it ultimately serves the common good.”

Posted by: pat_k

[Mountainman]

169. How many flats of strawberries are you going to pick this weekend.

It's too damned by all those illegals are taking that work away from you isn't it!????????
That whole thing reads like a stealth cover for xenophobia.

Don't pay them shit wages in Mexico and they'll stay home! Right!

[bean fidhleir]

248. If the growers couldn't get cheap labor, maybe they'd pay pickers enough to make it worthwhile

Why should anyone be allowed to pay substandard, exploitative wages?

[ulysses]

170. are you posting this because you agree with it?

I find it interesting that this:

Our underground economy makes the United States very attractive to people who are struggling to survive in their own countries. We can change the dynamics right now and virtually eliminate the underground economy, and in the process, minimize the incentive to enter this country unlawfully.

does nothing to actually improve the situation of the people struggling to survive. It does, however, keep them out of our line of vision. It's so messy watching people struggle...

[bean fidhleir]

247. Aren't all working people everywhere struggling to survive?

It looks to me as though everyone everywhere is, and I really don't understand what makes the working people born in the US less deserving than those born in, e.g., Guatamala.

It's pretty well accepted, I think, that change only happens when people either feel safe enough to agitate, or despairing enough not to give a damn. So if we want change, then we have to worsen or improve our lives to the point where change is possible.

I think we should be working to improve our situation, not worsen it. And one of the ways to do that is reduce competition for jobs. Welcoming an unlimited number of economic migrants makes life better for them, but worse for us. And if we're not going to welcome an unlimited number, how do we limit it? The deserving? How can we tell? The first? Why stop with them?

If we better our own situation sufficiently, we can gain the power to make changes that will benefit everyone everywhere. That's a MUCH easier task, it seems to me, than crashing our system and rebuilding. Not to mention it being more pleasant.

So what makes us less deserving of the best lives we can contrive? Why should we be expected to privilege the desires of foreign-born people for the best lives *they* can contrive when their improvement comes at our expense?

[Bluerthanblue]

165. what the

hell is wrong with this world?

:nuke:


I'm sorry Ulysses. I wish I had something more to offer.

peace~

[LeftishBrit]

167. That is sad.

Poor child!

[Cleita]

172. This is a terrible thing our nation is doing to the most helpless

and downtrodden of people. Mexico has lots of resources and income from tourism that should be used to improve the lives of its citizens, yet our leaders do nothing to open a dialog with the Mexicans to change this situation in their country so that their poor nationals don't have to leave the country to feed their children and see them go to school. Instead all that wealth goes to the richest class who give nothing back.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

174. I remember reading once that the foreign aid given to Mexico

from the U.S. tended to end up in the Swiss bank accounts of Mexico's elites.

And that's just fine with U.S. elites, too, evidently.

[Cleita]

175. That was true for much of Latin America as well.

I saw it first hand when I lived in Chile. Also, all the good jobs went to the elites. In order to get a white collar job like at a bank or airline for instance, you had to be from one of the right families to even get considered.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

179. They should... I dunno, levy fines, maybe sentence to community service, whatever

Anything but tear an innocent child's life apart.

[ulysses]

180. personally,

I'd rather they be thanked for supporting their kids' education in ways many of our parents don't any more and then be left alone.

They don't speak English very well. I'm wondering if some asshole reported the mom.

[DesertRat]

184. So sad. The same thing happened in my class this year

The Mom is illegal but the Dad and kids are citizens. Mom was sent back to Mexico. One of the kids has leukemia so Dad's trying to get Mom back here on a hardship basis. No luck so far. :(

[sudopod]

233. Damn ;_; nt

[GreenPartyVoter]

186. Oh No!

[BlooInBloo]

191. Oh fuck. :((((((

[struggle4progress]

197. It's strange that our borders only restrict people, while capital and products cross freely

[ColbertWatcher]

199. Good point.

The border also prevents corporations from paying their taxes.

[ulysses]

205. quite true.

"Free" trade isn't very, is it?

[yewberry]

200. It really hurts to lose them, doesn't it?

And it's never fair, no matter what the circumstances.


I lost a wonderful little girl, making great strides in finally learning her letter-sounds, when her parent got out of jail and she couldn't live with her "aunt" anymore.

Lost an amazing little boy who was actually having daily successes in one-on-one sessions and getting excited and proud about what he could do when his parent was stabbed to death and he was taken into another district.

Had to let go of a super-smart kid who'd never had enough consistent help to stay near grade-level when the family had to move to a shelter that made the school a difficult commute for a kid, alone.


Wonderful kids, smart kids, even the ones that make you tear your hair out--it's just so awful when you can't help them. Usually can't even say goodbye.

I'm sorry, ulysses.

[Nevernose]

201. What non-teachers don't understand:

Is that we don't work for immigration. We don't check for green cards. We don't care if they're rich or poor, legal or illegal, smart or stupid, from good families or bad. Our job is to take care of them like they were our own for as long as they're in our school, and when THEY hurt, WE hurt.

I see kids literally everyday -- most of them good kids, smart kids, kids who would be a real asset to this country -- move, relocate, and disappear because the date on a piece of paper expired. I often have to tell seniors with straight As that even though they've lived here for most of their lives and even though they spent 13 years in American schools they can't go to college because their immigration status bars them from getting student loans. I see families live in vans like gypsies because they don't want to go back to Mexico or Laos or Slovenia or whatever third-world hellhole they came from.

Anyway, I'm sorry for you and sorry for your student; I know what it feels like.

[ulysses]

208. thanks, Nevernose.

:)

[YvonneCa]

235. EXACTLY...

...and thank you for saying this. From a public school (elementary) teacher. :)

[JerseygirlCT]

211. That stinks. I'm sorry. nt

[Maestro]

215. I'm sorry to hear this.

I have dealt with this on more then one occasion unfortunately and here at DU there are many who are completely ignorant of the situation. It's all black and white to them. I hope things work out for the family. My students deal with this all the time. Was the raid at an apartment complex or place of work? If it was at a place of employment, I bet the employer only got a slap on the wrist while the family is broken up. Sounds fair, uh? :eyes:

[Xenotime]

217. So much for no child left behind.

That's * plan to separate families to cause more suffering. It's working really good in Iraq.

[kevinbgoode]

226. This is one of the things I don't understand.

How, exactly, do conservatives promote "family" values? On one hand, they contend that the moment in which a sperm magically fertilizes an egg, the fetus becomes a protected citizen (even though that conflicts with the Constitution) and they demand it be treated as such by the government. On the other hand, doesn't this also mean that any "illegal" who becomes pregnant in the United States should be afforded automatic citizenship for both herself and the fetus?

[YvonneCa]

237. Go to...

...pepperdine.edu. I don't know how you feel about John Kerry, but he spoke on Faith and Politics at Pepperdine. That website carries the speech. After the speech, he was asked exactly that question by a student there. His answer was excellent...something like "What does that say about us as people of faith with a belief in the value of our common humanity?" You might enjoy the speech. :)

[ballsalicious]

234. somebody will claim her capture as a trophy...

...when I see this sort of thing I always think of the politicians who were elected on hate platforms... and the people they stomp on the way to their precious positions.

:mad:

and another:

:mad:

[midnight]

236. You have no words because this is so unjust. Family

destruction is the calling card of criminals that hide behind Jesus. I can't wait tell this whole unholy group has to account to these destructive policies.

[Politics_Guy25]

240. So sorry to this

This goes to show that we are in desperate need of immigration reform.

[TexasObserver]

242. Bush is using Immigration to flex its muscles as a stratagem for the fall.

This is all about posturing for fall elections.