What is it about this shit that makes me hate being a woman?

[Writer]

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jb68x_tOGx8QHjI0Cr6C-Vy79OGgD911F0IG1

Am I the only one here?

[crikkett]

1. looks like it so far - I've never hated being a woman

no matter what stupid crap my sisters sign on to.

[Writer]

4. I guess I subscribe to a different definition of woman.

I personally don't get lipstick feminism.

[Indenturedebtor]

94. I think that people get feminism and other isms confused

With their particular choices. Feminism is the right of women to do whatever the hell they want so long as they're not hurting other people. It's the right of women to do what men do if they so choose, and to not HAVE to do what "women" are expected to do.

If women want to buy 1,000 dollar shoes and be promiscuous then no one should tell them they can't/shouldn't.

Likewise if some men want to do the same thing, why shouldn't they?

This argument is kind of like saying that Football is sexist.

[MedleyMisty]

95. I don't know - how many people could that $1000 have fed?

Every choice is a moral choice, and when you choose to spend that much money on shoes when it could feed a good number of children, well - it is your choice but don't blame me for thinking that it's not the best choice you could have made morally.

[Rage for Order]

96. How much does your internet connection cost?

How many third-world children could your subscription fee clothe and feed each month? You can access the internet at your local public library for free, so there's really no reason to have the internet at your home. Just another frivolous luxury. :eyes:

[rebel with a cause]

106. The library is open only so many hours

in the near by town. And I have no car to go there, and could not walk to the library in this town when it was open. So no, I cannot get internet at the library. My internet will not cost me a thousand dollors until I have it for three years. My internet serves me by helping me find resources for my illnesses, information about the healthcare available, and other resourses. No, I don't see the comparison of internet and a thousand dollar pair of shoes.

If you can afford the shoes, go for it. Even though I find it foolish, it is no skin off of my nose.

[Rage for Order]

131. They're obviously not exactly equivalent

My point was that many things that seem like basic items to us would be considered lavish in many parts of the world. I wouldn't buy a $1,000 pair of shoes either, but certainly there are things that I buy or do that would be considered wasteful or extravagant by some people.

[rebel with a cause]

133. I got you.

And of course we are all wasteful in our own ways. Sorry if I over reacted. Things here sometimes get to me and I react to the wrong person. Maybe I need a vacation. Oh who am I kidding, I'm addicted to it. Have taken a few deep breaths and gotten my good humor back. ;)

[Indenturedebtor]

135. You're assuming that the 1k shoes don't go to anyone

Though I do agree it's not the best choice, it's not I think out of line with feminism. And honestly I'd rather someone buy a fairly low environmental impact pair of shoes than a new 4 wheeler.

People do have to buy stuff for the economy to move forward... But they should see to contributing to society before indulging in 1k shoes!

[PretzelWarrior]

8. my wife and her 2 friends saw it yesterday

all 3 of them are Asian. just adding data.

[PeaceNikki]

2. Hmm. Well, a movie and its popularity could never make me hate being a woman.

I don't necessarily follow the logic.

[Writer]

6. It's the content of the movie... and the show, of course.

This whole notion of feminist power being equated to shoe style and who one can bag in bed.

I just don't get it.

[PeaceNikki]

12. I saw the movie. And loved the show.

I don't think either equates feminist power to fashion and sex. :shrug:

[Writer]

14. Then what do you think it's all about...

thematically speaking?

Why would this image of women be so appealing?

[PeaceNikki]

18. It's entertainment. Why does it have to be "about" feminism?

It's appealing because it's fun. And funny. And well, entertainment.

[Writer]

24. Well... I'm looking at this with a socially critical eye.

All visceral enjoyment aside - it's what I'm about to do for a living.

Ask yourself this: Why would these images of women be so appealing in 2008 America? What in society makes these images appealing when, say, Nurse Ratchet wouldn't be appealing?

[PeaceNikki]

40. What "images of women" are you referring to?

I don't think you have a good grasp of the show. One of the 4 characters is "sex-crazed" another is "fashion-crazed". One is a "goody-two-shoes" type, and one is a dry sort of realist. What makes them appealing is that they are 4 independant women dealing with the shit of everyday life. Jobs, relationships, eventually kids, etc.

[Iris]

79. That's my question.

All 4 characters are flawed, but likeable. Like most women I know, whether or not they buy designer shoes

[Echo In Light]

152. There isn't any difference between entertainment and indoctrination

For instance, revolutionary indie film maker, John Cassavetes, was fond of criticizing any form of entertainment that caused people to switch off their critical thinking abilities.

This dilemma can be applied to the majority of forms of entertainment in America, which, even though some may provide pleasure to many, largely serve as an advertisement/coercion for a particularly corporate-friendly mindset. Not all commercials are one min long, many come in the form of tell-a-vision shows, movies, and favored corporate culture pastimes. Just as the "manufacture of consent" relied more so on influencing and shaping the collective consciousness outside of the workplace, that's exactly what the people who own and run everything want from mass popular entertainment: docile, unquestioning, easy to fuck over people who won't make waves for them.

[cornermouse]

36. It's called shallow character.

I never watched the show and I knew when I saw Sarah Jessica Parker at the store window cooing at a (probably) shoe that costs several hundred dollars that I was not going to see it either.

[Iris]

78. Then how do you know the character was shallow?

[cornermouse]

84. How did that go?

To the best of my memory. They look at a shoe in the window. One of them says "Manolo". Sarah leans up to the window and coos "Hello lover." That's shallow.

[Iris]

125. It was ONE scene from many, many, many scenes!

I tons of people who are intelligent, compassionate, ambitious and funny and on some occasions they even tend to be shallow!

[Echo In Light]

151. One needn't be a chicken to know what an egg is

[CTyankee]

80. I don't plan on seeing the movie and I watched only a few TV segments of the show but

I thought it was parody and ironic. I took the show in that vein. I am of the Second Wave feminists (I am in my late 60s) and have been a serious feminist for decades. My dtrs, son and husband are all committed feminists.

The movie doesn't get to me because it doesn't really reflect the real world. The teen stuff worries me more, primarily because I have 3 granddaughters and one is turning 13 in Sept. My daughter (her mom) and I are constantly talking about the challenges of raising a teen girl these days. Dtr went to Mount Holyoke, the first women's college in the U.S., and had a strong, feminist college education.

[rebel with a cause]

109. A silly fairy tale is my take on it.

I, like you, have nothing in common with the show/movie. I am not interested in watching it but if someone else sees it, it is nothing to me. Its a free country and to each his own. But the next time there is a religious right wing protest over a movie because it doesn't suit "their morals" perhaps someone should ask them where they were today. :D

Note that I am talking about "their morals" and how they judge movies and shows.

[CTyankee]

114. well, I don't want to get into it. It is what it is.

Maybe we can leave it to the social anthropologists to ponder out a meaning from the TV segments/movie. I don't have the patience for it...

[rebel with a cause]

117. Me either.

Better ways to spend my time. Like fighting with my daughter over who is the boss of the house. :D

[BlooInBloo]

3. You hate being a woman because Sex In The City is #1 movie this weekend?

[Writer]

11. No, dear. I hate being a woman because Indiana Jones wouldn't sleep with me.

That's why... oh, and that I couldn't afford those $300 Manolo's. Like, whatever!

[Buns_of_Fire]

150. Barry Manolo has a line of shoes out now?

Obviously, I need to get out more. :-)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

5. It's no sillier than men worshipping sports teams.

People get caught up in silly things.

[Writer]

7. That may be.

:shrug:

[MercutioATC]

9. Hell, I'm a guy and I liked the HBO series.

Then again, I like Sarah Jessica Parker :)

I don't think it's a particularly feminist message, but it's not an unfeminist message...and it's entertaining.

[Writer]

16. It's lipstick feminism.

It's equating feminist power to a kind of sexual appeal. Sexiness as a weapon.

[MercutioATC]

31. The whole premise was the life of a sex column writer.

Of course it addressed that angle of feminism.

It also addressed other facets, though not as prominently.

[Writer]

33. But the question is why a show such as this would have been invented?

Our narratives reflect who we are as a society - or highlight elements of it. Why would someone decide on these themes and produce a program?

[MercutioATC]

41. Ummm....money. The same reason almost everything's produced.

...and it seems to be working in this case.

[Writer]

49. Well... duh. But why would this show make money? As in, be appealing?

That's what I'm getting at.

[PeaceNikki]

50. Have you ever watched the show?

[Writer]

54. Ref: #53.

[MercutioATC]

55. It told a good story.

It wasn't particularly deep (not like "Ghandi-type" deep), but it didn't have to be. It did deal with some serious issues in responsible ways and both glamorized and poked fun at our beauty standards.

I think it was a smart, funny series...but I wasn't looking for a HBO series that would change the world.

[Writer]

61. When I saw it, I thought it was well written and well-acted.

However, I don't buy the theme they seem to be expressing - female empowerment through sex/clothes, etc. It seems very artificial to me. Like "don't let men have all the fun; go out and take what's yours, too." But ultimately I think what happens is that a woman just plays a man's game instead of just being herself. In her conquest of self-empowerment, she ends up simply a tug toy for men's desires. That bothers me.

Did the ladies in the show ever consider WHY they struggled with finding good relationships?

[PeaceNikki]

63. Yes, they did struggle with that. A lot.

Again, you don't seem to know much about the show.

[Iris]

127. It was based on an actual writer of a sex column's book.

[dkf]

10. Sex and the City was fun.

What I can't stand are false accusations of sexism.

Now when my boss tells me a woman can't do what he does, THAT is sexism. Hearing all this other crap about Hillary nutcrackers pisses me off.

[Writer]

13. Or that THIS (Sex and the City) is what feminism is about...

not "acting like a man." (Hillary Clinton.)

I want a man or a woman to take what I'm saying seriously, not stare at my hot new dress and my shoes.

[PeaceNikki]

15. Looking good and being intelligent/respected are not mutually exclusive.

[Writer]

21. You're absolutely correct, but that's not all that's going on here.

If this were simply beautiful, smart women that's one thing. But the appeal of these women is to play the man's game. To achieve social power by being attractive and bagging men. It's like frat boys turned on end.

[mnhtnbb]

51. Not all of them were playing that game. Samantha, yes. But if you'd watched

the show you'd know that Carrie, Charlotte, and Miranda were looking for love and lasting relationships.


Fess up. How many of the shows have you watched? Have you seen the movie?

[Writer]

53. I've seen a couple of shows and have no interest in seeing the movie.

It simply doesn't appeal to me. It actually nauseates me because it's not how I approach my life as a woman.

[PeaceNikki]

59. OK, well you're OP stated that it makes you hate being a woman.

And you clearly don't know a great deal about the characters or storyline, so that seems very silly to me. But, go ahead and hate being a woman because a show/movie that you don't know much about is killing at the box office. And go ahead and be nauseated by those of us entertained by it.


ETA: Your opinion of the show/movie doesn't make you more or less of a feminist than me.

[Writer]

67. Oh come on. We can talk about this without getting catty?

Hang it up.

I look at this version of feminism and question its veracity, and I don't subscribe to it. If this is what "female power" has come to - instead of using one's mind and one's social ability - it's now an unrealistic definition of beauty coupled with an amazing emphasis on the superficial.

It's not what "woman" means to me.

[PeaceNikki]

71. Ha. "Catty"? You see the irony of the sexist connotations associated with that word, right?

[Writer]

74. Yes, indeed. n/t

[Flaxbee]

102. Female power does not have to fit into one or two

small, defined categories.

Female power is as diverse as all the women who exist or have ever existed. So long as a woman has the freedom to choose how she wants to live her life, and how she then proceeds to live her life, then who are you to judge whether or not she's a feminist, or powerful, or happy with her life, or shallow, or intelligent?

It seems your standards are rather rigid, and just as suffocating to female freedom as the oppressive standards set by men.

Cut your fellow females some slack.

[Writer]

111. Actually I said this same thing down below.

[Iris]

129. What do you mean? You don't have friends you would take care of when they have breast cancer

or are sick alone in their apartment all weekend? I don't understand what is so offensive about a group of women who are trying to have a great life and be there for each other despite not living up to society's standards of marrying well, moving to the suburbs, and having a bunch of kids.

[BlooInBloo]

17. The Love Of My Life had both....

God I was stupid. Sigh.

[TomInTib]

39. Same here, but mine later added Crazy to the equation.

I was lucky to get out alive.

[BlooInBloo]

43. heh. I'm certainly not one to throw stones on that matter, so it's not as important to me. :)

[Writer]

52. Sounds like NPD.

[TomInTib]

58. NPD?

What is NPD?

[Writer]

73. Narcissism.

But never mind. I don't know anything about your life, so I'm probably just talking out of my ass.

I'm sorry that you went through that, though. :hug:

[TomInTib]

82. You just wouldn't believe.

The smartest, prettiest, most sensual being I have ever met went slowly insane.

And I had given up everything I had to be with her.

I wasn't kidding about being lucky to get out of it alive.

She got the house, the money, the cars and the dog.

I still miss that dog. But at least I see him a couple of times a week.

[dkf]

19. The clothes on Sex and the City never did much for me.

I thought the story lines were interesting. I kind of saw it as a soap opera.

[Writer]

27. When you say soap, are you leaning more Days of Our Lives, or more Falcon Crest?

[dkf]

35. Any non-serious bit of entertainment.

I wouldn't call it a serious drama by any stretch. Its just fun.

[Ian David]

20. Unlike Laura Bush, I've never watched it. n/t

[Writer]

28. Laura Bush watches this?

[Ian David]

44. I think I remember hearing that somewhere. Or was it Desperate Housewives? n/t

[rocktivity]

100. At a White House dinner, Laura make a joke about watching Desperate Housewives

only because Georgie goes to bed so early.

It starts at 3:10, then be sure to click on "Next Up" for Part Deux.

:headbang:
rocknation

[mnhtnbb]

60. There is NO way Laura Bush could be a fan. Not with her frumpy style.

[rebel with a cause]

113. Me either.

I pay for internet, can't afford bonus channels on cable. Go with the basic. the old shoes on now on but it is just not my cup of tea.

[Kutjara]

22. It sort of makes me hate being human, but then...

...it's got plenty of competition for that prize.

[Writer]

29. Yeah. There are far worse things out there.

[etherealtruth]

23. I absolutely LOVE being a woman

I thought the series was good fun and watched it as much as I did any television show.

I plan on seeing the movie with a bunch of "gal pals."

I am an extremely feminine (by societal standards)woman ... I am smart, tough and sexy (even at 46) ... I love being a woman

[Writer]

30. Why does the series/movie appeal to you?

Other than being good fun?

[etherealtruth]

42. Good fun IS appealing ...

... my life is not necessarily easy ... rarely frivolous ... if I can escape for a few moments (or an hour) every now and again and enjoy some frivolity, I'm going to do it ... depending on the time in my life these moments have been rare ... I will savor every moment.

[Writer]

48. So would this show be like a fantasy to you?

Like an escapist fantasy?

[etherealtruth]

66. I've, most assuredly, watched more episodes of ...

SpongeBob Squarepants ... which is seriously good frivolous fun.

I am not particularly invested in Sex in the City ... but in a small sense there might have been a little escapism ... I just can't imagine anything making me love being a woman any less.

[eShirl]

25. I've never seen it

and am not about to start now. I don't get the obsession (obviously not limited to the show) with expensive shoes, handbags, etc -- I mean, :boring:

[Writer]

38. Yeah I personally find it boring, too.

[seabeyond]

26. i have not watched the series, nor the movie. seems from discription it takes the worse

of who a female is and tries to place a value on it. between the male movies that makes women pathetic and this movie that makes women pathetic... ya... pretty pathetic.

[etherealtruth]

34. Actually, it frequently pointed out the ridiculousness ...

... of the materialism and narcissism that occurs in humans (in this case female humans).

At the end of the day it was just a TV show and is now just a movie ... no more no less.

[mnhtnbb]

32. I'm a huge fan and not embarrassed to admit it. I went to the first matinee on Friday and was sad

when the movie was over.

It's all about friendship and great clothes and New York (I'm a native). The world
is in such a shitty place--no thanks to the Bushies, Republicans, and colluding Dems--
that taking a couple of hours to escape is just what I needed.

No, I absolutely could not disagree with you more. I love Carrie, Miranda, Samantha, and Charlotte!

[old mark]

37. It would also seem

that it made several women (the actors) quite rich.

mark

[Lorien]

92. Nothing wrong with women actors getting rich

good roles are very hard to come by for any woman, and women over 40? Most are reduced to character roles that pay scale. I say good for them!

[old mark]

158. Absolutely!

[Writer]

45. I lived in NYC for two years and miss it completely.

[FirstLight]

46. I just went and saw it last night...

by myself, after I got the kids in bed.

I don't think it is demeaning at all, and if you had watched the series, you would see that each of the characters are a type of personality that 'everywoman' can identify with.
The women are also products of their environment, where in New York fashion and nightlife are probably big (I wouldn't know, I am a country bumpkin)...but the idealism, the yearning for romance, the trying to juggle home and family and career, the need to be sexy at 50 and the desire to have a 'perfect' life are all things we desire - feminist or not...right? And the fun is being able to enjoy the characters as they grow and learn, as we all do.


It's more than shoes and sex, but that's part of the fun of it... why shouldn't we enjoy the ride as we discover who we are as strong women? I am sure my "alter-ego-super-journalist-diva-globetrotter" would still be a real woman with all of these emotions even IF I had the $ for a serious shoe fetish.

Don't hate being a woman, enjoy all the depths that we come with.
And yes, sometimes it is okay to like playing dress-up, it doesn't mean you have abandoned your beliefs.

[melody]

47. I do not know one person of the female persuasion who has any interest in seeing it

The very idea makes me break out in a rash.

[PretzelWarrior]

57. you travel in different circles than a lot of women then

[melody]

62. No, I don't.

I have female friends from all walks of life.

I think it's a matter of the caliber of friend.

[MercutioATC]

65. I'd call that response "catty"....if "catty" wasn't a sexist term.

Ouch!

Maybe "it's a matter of the entertainment preferences of your friends"?

[melody]

69. No, I personally think that the entire Sex and the City crap is inane

You choose your friends -- and films. I'll choose mine.

[MercutioATC]

75. I wasn't addressing your preferences in either entertainment or acquaintances.

I was addressing your assertion that only people of an inferior "caliber" would enjoy this series/film.

That's a whole lot of assumption for somebody seemingly claiming the moral and/or intellectual high ground.

[melody]

89. And it's a lot of assumption for you to assume I meant "inferior"

Beyond which fact, you watch whatever you like, I don't care.

>I think it's a matter of the caliber of friend.

Is what I said. Different calibers are for different people ... it doesn't make one "inferior".
Anyway, it's quite an assertion to suggest I'm claiming moral/intellectual high ground. lol

[MercutioATC]

98. "Caliber"...from Merriam-Webster:

caliber


Main Entry:
cal·i·ber
Variant(s):
or cal·i·bre Listen to the pronunciation of calibre \ˈka-lə-bər, British also kə-ˈlē-\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle French calibre, from Old Italian calibro, from Arabic qālib shoemaker's last
Date:
1567

1 a: degree of mental capacity or moral quality b: degree of excellence or importance


Perhaps you were looking for a different word?

[melody]

119. I don't care ... and welcome to my ignore list. n/t

[MercutioATC]

137. Hey, it's not MY fault that you use words without knowing what they mean...

...but thanks for the welcome.

:)

[Contrary1]

144. !!!

Geez...however will you be able to sleep tonight?

:evilgrin:

[Writer]

70. Whoa whoa whoa there's no need for this.

The problem with women's definitions today is that there are many definitions of it. Everyone has a different style.

[Sal Minella]

72. I tried watching the trailer to see what all the fuss was about, and I made it only about halfway

through the trailer. Complete mystery to me why anybody would watch this stuff when so many good films exist, but to each their own.

[melody]

91. I know, I thought my brain was going to explode

But some people like it so

:shrug:

[Avalon Sparks]

56. Loved the Show

Can't wait for the movie.

To me the show was about friendship, and of course great fashion - which was FUN to see.
Also love the storyline with Big and Carrie...
The TV show had so many funny lines!

Some favorite episodes - when Miranda's Mom dies...
Samatha's "I'm NOT having a Baby shower"


I love Carrie, Miranda, Samantha, and Charlotte TOO!!!

[Lorien]

88. OK, I loved the "I'm not having a baby shower" episode

even my dad loved that one. If you've been single for a long time and you've watched all of your formally fun, individual, adventurous friends join the "cult of motherhood" it's hard not to relate to that one (of course, not all mothers turn into pod people-not by a long shot-but those that do seem to form their own Stepford village that cuts the rest of us out).

I hate shopping, never cared for fancy shoes, and consider myself a lifelong feminist-but I like the show. Samantha reminds me of some of my friends from the film business (although none are as promiscuous. I wouldn't care if they were, though-men have been getting away with it for long enough). I see nothing "sexist" about the Miranda character. She has to deal with being smart (a lawyer), successful, over 35 and average looking in a country where most men seem to prefer uneducated stewardesses filled with silicone(as she pretended to be in one episode, which was depressing). Her character is the most "real" of the four. The rest are perhaps caricatures of different types of women, but I think many of the situations they find themselves in are relatable to many. Of course, the show is called "SEX and the city". It's doesn't dwell on occupations, family ties or other aspects of life; every storyline focuses on intimate relationships. If you want a show about careers there is plenty out there to choose from. Nothing wrong with sex/ relationships as a primary topic. Sex is just a part of life as an adult. I see nothing "degrading" about the topic. Shopping and materialism on the other hand....

FWIW; many of my straight male friends have watched the series and enjoyed it, though all of them say that they would never want to date a woman like Carrie Bradshaw!

[The Straight Story]

64. You're a woman????

Damn. Send me some nude pics as proof :rofl:

Seriously though, I just don't get the whole thing. but then I would rather play chess than watch tv, so maybe I am WAY behind the times.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Making you an object... that is why I never got that series

or WOMEN who watch it

[apocalypsehow]

76. Hate being a woman (or a man, for that matter) because a lot of people like a particular movie?

That just makes all kinds of sense.... :eyes:

[Writer]

77. It has more to do with the themes of said movie.

Like what we're talking about throughout the thread.

Perhaps it will make a bit more sense then.

[alfredo]

81. Everybody needs a break from reality. As the economy drops, relief

becomes more important. During the depression the movies about high society were very popular. sure it is shallow, fast food entertainment, but it fills a need.

Allow us a break from reality, even if it is only for two hours.

I'm going with my wife this Wed. She needs a break from reality and I could use one too.

[supernova]

83. I prefer to think of it this way

Disclaimer: I was a late comer to the series, not being able to afford even basic cable for most of my working life. I only saw it the last year it was on. Is it deep? No. (Trust me, I'm the queen of "deep." ) And I'm not "girlie" in the classic sense. I don't really care to shop a lot. If I look professional and have decent shoes, I'm happy. And I wear T-shirts and underware at home. But I did come to grudgingly like what a saw.

I especially liked one of the last episodes where Miranda decides to have her MiL come live with them in their Brooklyn house because the woman (played by the wonderfully ground-breaking comedienne Ann Mirra) was showing early signs of Alzheimer's. One of the last shots of them is Miranda bathing her MiL, just like you would do with a baby. The older woman housekeeper, who all through the series had been critical of Miranda, or at least emotionally distant, says "That's what love is." And she's right. We do make sacrifices for the people we care about. So, SaTC is not all about shoes and dresses.

Yes, SaTC is wrapped up in a kind of champagne-bubbly dross fantasy of Manolo's, Chanel and Hermes, with a Manhattan chaser, but it shows women at the center of their own stories, making decisions and accepting the consequences of those decisions, not just as convenient backdrops for the males.

Sexual images of women have been so repressed for so long, that seeing women express themselves IN PUBLIC about their sexuality, is disturbing to a lot of people. In fact, it as come out so stilted that we still struggle with the Madonna/Whore dichotomy. That's why SaTC got the hatred early on. But they did something wonderful. They started blurring that M/W line. Is Samantha the PR flak just an aging slut because she likes to pick up way younger men? But she also cares about her friends and helps them whenever possible. She helps the young man she's dating to become a star. She shows courage in the face of breast cancer by taking off her wig at a public event. If we are to have an open society, we have view many examples of female sexuality, some frivolous, some sane, some downright horrid. Only when we have built up a body of work against which to say "you know, women are just human beings, some good, some bad, some in between, just like men, then we won't be at each other's throats every time a new image of us comes out. The reaction will be "Oh, that's just that character. "

That's as it should be and in its own wierd little way, I think SaTC does go some way toward that. The next time someone produces a show with female characters, they might be a little less inclined to people it with stock female characters who just giggle and simper though the set. And isn't that what we all say we want?

[PeaceNikki]

85. Thank you, supernova.

You summed it up beautifully.

[Bunny]

86. Excellent. That's just how I feel about it too.

[Lorien]

90. Well put, Supernova

:thumbsup:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

99. Thank you supernova for your eloquent and so true analaysis of SATC.

:applause:

[Writer]

107. That's very interesting. Thank you.

Perhaps one can say that it's a modern "dramatic" Designing Women.

One thing I'd add, however, is that women's sexuality has always been a feature of televised narratives; however, in this case, the women are in charge of their sexuality - hence the "power" motif.

[supernova]

123. The "power motif" phrase puts me off

For me, it's more like they're just characters who are taking responsibility for their lives and choices. Traditionally in literature and drama, female characters have been way too passive with things happening to them, not because of them.

[Iris]

130. I think there was a lot of depth to it, especially considering each episode was a 30 minute comedy.

[Shakespeare]

132. Good post. I think, at heart, SATC is primarly about friendships.

There's a lot of frilly window dressing with that, but it's fiction, for crying out loud. If you watch many of the shows, you'll notice a pattern that it's a very insular look at the quartet. Lovers come and go, and there are some secondary characters, but it's about four women and their relationships with each other. It's a female buddy movie, squared.

As for the fashion aspect of it--I love a great pair of shoes once in awhile, and that really has nothing to do with what kind of feminist I am.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

87. I loved the show and loved the movie and I don't understand why this should make you

hate being a woman.

After spending hours upon hours of worrying and trying to do something about the state of our country, the state of the world and the state of my family, I need to diffuse every now and then with a self-indulgent gulity pleasure and SATC is one of those for me. I see nothing wrong with that at all and am not at all ashamed to admit it.

[blondeatlast]

115. I never liked the show--and agree wholeheartedly.

I don't think either one of us is the type to be defined by whether we care for the movie or not but I can see that the media is trying to pull this--and thuis I can understand Writer's anger.

I like heels, lipstick, clothes, and oh, hell--SEX with my husband--I just didn't care for SATC. On the other hand, I absolutely LOVED "Romy and Michelle's High School Reunion" which was easily just as vapid and can quote nearly every line from it (I almost picked "I'm the Rhoda" for my screen name--no joke!)

[Eric Condon]

93. My ex-girfriend was really into this show, and I had to walk a fine line

trying not to look like the typical "guy" who didn't like it. She'd always say stuff like "well, you're a guy," and I tried so hard to explain to her what I've explained to other people as well: it's not a gender issue for me, it's just the fact that I can't relate to a show about rich people, nor can I relate to a show about people whose actions have absolutely no basis in reality (i.e., Samantha). The entire milieu of the show is completely meaningless and alien to me, and just because I can't relate to a show about people who live in a world of $700 shoes doesn't make me a sexist.

From a gender standpoint (and again, I am a guy, so feel free to take any observations I make about gender with a grain of salt), nothing about this show ever struck me as being particularly "feminist." I didn't watch a whole lot of episodes, but from what I saw, I don't feel like there was ever a lot of discussion about any sort of issues that really affect women institutionally. The only sort of "feminism" that ever appeared to manifest itself on the show was an extremely shallow "you go girl" sensibility which is all fine and good on the surface, but doesn't exactly ask many probing questions about real issues of gender in our society. Not every show needs to do that per se, but for a show that seems to carry such a mantle of being about "liberated post-feminist women living in the city" and all that, it seems like its insights could've been deeper. (Also, notice how when people talk about how SATC is so feminist, they always add that these women are "living in the city," as if that somehow makes it more feminist.) Basically, the kind of feminism SATC subscribes to seems to be this kind: http://www.theonion.com/content/news/women_now_empowered_by_everything

But SATC shouldn't make anyone feel embarrassed to be a woman. There are plenty of reasons to be embarrassed to be a man, but The Man Show isn't one of them, and I think of Sex and the City as being somewhat analogous - an exaggerated grotesque of modern gender identity.

[seabeyond]

105. an exaggerated grotesque of modern gender identity

there you go. yes.

[Writer]

110. LOL - that Onion article is AWESOME. I've bookmarked it.

And will share it with my mom and my sisters.

Guy or not, everything you stated above rings a bells with me. I think much of this has to do with the feminist movement regressing into more conservative female models over the last twenty years. No longer does the feminist pursuit mean breaking barriers for SOME, but breaking back into whatever it is that women do daily.

And whenever they do in fact encounter gender bias/discrimination in the workplace, they just turn away, leaving the perpetrator waiting for his next victim. Where's the FIGHT? Oh yeah - it's the fight to the next shoe sale. :eyes:

[fed_up_mother]

121. Changing subject title here

""Of course, women can be empowered by losing weight, too," Willets added. "Pretty much any change in weight—up or down—is empowering."

Oh, geesh, What in the hell does that mean?

Don't anyone take the time to explain. I'm sure I won't get it. LOL

Ok, so this is from The Onion? LOL

ETA My subject title made no sense. It was from a previous post.

[noamnety]

97. You are definitely not the only one.

The clips I've seen have been nauseating, same with the interview/promo piece I heard on the radio. I hate that crap of women being encouraged to confuse their identity with marketing and materialism.

[ismnotwasm]

101. Blame the patriarchy instead

Women buy into what is "feminine" as easy as men do. Sometimes we measure our sexuality or even our gender in the fit of jeans or the length of skirt. And while fashion choices aren't my first focus, I understand and accept it seems to be very important to others. Personally, I think many western fashions are soul dead.

I don't hate being a women, and I've never found Sex and the city to be worth my time. The message of empowered sexuallity gets lost in what-is-she-wearing. The women appear neurotic, the old term is, and the men idiotic. As a human parody, it's probably OK.

[Turbineguy]

103. There was a time

life was life and entertainment was entertainment.

It's a movie. You can enjoy it or not but you don't have to be it.

The people who are in the movies and make them do so for economic gain. That's it.

[blondeatlast]

104. Lipstick feminist who hated the show and won't see the movie here.

I refuse to be defined by anyone else's standars--whether it be my feminism or femininity, but I won't judge those that do.

I'm one of those confused types who support Obama but see Clinton as most assuredly being the victim of misogynistic attention. It's hard, but that's why I avoid the likes of SITC but let those who care for it pass. There's likely something else deserving of my attention and scorn at any given time.

To each, her own, though.

[JI7]

108. i never hated being a woman and would not want to be a man

as for the movie, i have not seen it and have never seen the tv show either.

but it's supposed to be comedy, not a serious movie.

how about metrosexual men ?

[pitohui]

112. possibly, just keep in mind it's only a movie and it's trying to be woman friendly

what makes me hate being a woman is my limited lack of opportunity and the fact that, at the end of the day, i am not really considered to be equal to a man

there's no "sex and the city" about men because it's taken for granted that single men can be independent sexual agents, so it's a little sad that this is still considered radical news that a woman can be independent and still sexual...but not the fault of the teevee show or the movie, is it? they are just reflecting the way of the world and the fact that in much of the country, even this much freedom for women is seen to be outrageous and worthy of reporting on the teevee or movie screen

THAT'S what makes me hate being a woman, not a teevee show, but the fact that i have had so few options in my life despite working very, very hard

i hope it is different for younger women, but unfortunately i'm a bit older than "carrie" and i don't really believe that most women carrie's age do have all these wonderful options, maybe in new york city they do, but nyc is not the world

[rebel with a cause]

116. What about "Entourage"?

You said "there's no sex and te city about men". If anyone has seen this show, is it similar? I personally have not seen SITS or this show, but the commercials for them look similar.

[pitohui]

118. not familiar with it, sorry

therefore i can't comment

[rebel with a cause]

120. This islike the old saying "the blind leading the blind."

:rofl:

[pitohui]

122. no it's the honest trying to lead the dishonest

if you believe that single women and single men have the same opportunity then i pray that you are reborn as a woman in your next 500 lives

[rebel with a cause]

124. I am a woman and

:wtf: I don't understand your anger. I was comparing two tv shoes that neither one of us have seen, hense the blind leading the blind. I thought the men on the show "Entourage" might have similar characters as the women on "The Sex in the City". I was not saying anything about the opportunities that men and women have. As for my next 500 lives, I hope I am not reborn. I've had enough of this one and the people I encounter, thank you very much. May you live long and prosper.

[pitohui]

128. 've seen "sex and the city"

so your assumption that i would comment on a show i had never seen is just not fair, i'm not that kind of person

while i do not have cable, believe it or not, i have such a thing as FRIENDS and most of them do have teevees

sheesh

i am simply not the kind of person who reviews shows i haven't seen and to put me in that category is extremely offensive

[AngryOldDem]

126. I could never understand the appeal of that show.

When I had HBO I tried watching it, but could never get through a whole episode. Just a bunch of self-absorbed, promiscuous women. I found it offensive and embarrassing.

[AlCzervik]

134. Nothing makes me hate being a woman.

[Lorien]

156. I admit it, I throughly dislike being a woman

I've always worked in a field that is dominated by men. I often get paid far less than they do for the same job-even when they have less experience and ability. And when I have been successful they insinuate that I must have been banging my boss or using affirmative action to get where I am. I've been sexually harassed at work, sexually assaulted and knocked around by boyfriends, criticized by both men and women for being too fat, too thin, too busty, not busty enough, too pale, too blond, not fashionable enough, too concerned with my looks, not concerned enough with my looks, too single, too independent and now too old. I'm a failure to many because I don't have kids, and some even say that I'm SELFISH for not having children (helps to find a man to love before you have any, of course). Marriage isn't going to happen to me, but being on my own is just one long slog for survival-and the best I get for my efforts is "well, you're doing pretty well -for a woman".

But "Sex and the City" has nothing to do with how I feel about it.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

136. I don't understand it either.

I have not had cable since 1988. I may have seen a preview for the movie.

So these women are materialistic. They are ecstatic over expensive shoes and dresses. They use men for sex, and exploit men for their money. Those used to be called "golddiggers". Golddiggers come in both genders, BTW.

I don't think this is liberation. Materialism just supports the big corporations and the completely shallow and superficial values promoted in this society. Why are they so insecure that they have to wear someone else's name (the designer's name) on their purses, clothing, jewelry? Why aren't they fine with generic clothing, jewelry, shoes, purses? Huh? I think there's a serious lack of self esteem there.

I don't know any women who would be interested in these women's lives. Just because they are good friends doesn't mean I or any woman I know would emulate their pursuit of expensive goods or their pursuit of men they can use.

I don't pick my friends on the basis of their appearance, weight, social status of their job, or the stylishness of their wardrobe -- male or female friends.

:shrug:

:wtf:

[csziggy]

138. That whole sex object culture phenomenon is alien to me

My parents raised their four daughters to be intelligent human beings first. Good grooming and pride in ourselves were important but not to the extent of most of the women on TV and in the movies. My husband laughs because I hate "chick flics" more than he does. ;-)

Edited to add:

This is the fairy tale that should have been read to us when we were little:

Once upon a time
~~~~~~~~

in a land far away,

~~~~~~~~

a beautiful, independent,
self-assured princess

~~~~~~~~

happened upon a frog as she sat
contemplating ecological issues
on the shores of an unpolluted pond
in a verdant meadow near her castle.

~~~~~~~~

The frog hopped into the princess' lap
and said: " Elegant Lady,
I was once a handsome prince,
until an evil witch cast a spell upon me.

~~~~~~~~

One kiss from you, however,
and I will turn back
into the dapper, young prince that I am

~~~~~~~~
and then, my sweet, we can marry

~~~~~~~~

and set up housekeeping in your castle

~~~~~~~~

with my mother,

~~~~~~~~

where you can prepare my meals,

~~~~~~~~

clean my clothes, bear my children,

~~~~~~~~

and forever feel

grateful and happy doing so. "
~~~~~~~~

That night,
~~~~~~~~
as the princess dined sumptuously
~~~~~~~~
on lightly sauteed frog legs
~~~~~~~~
seasoned in a white wine
~~~~~~~
and onion cream sauce,
~~~~~~~~
she chuckled and thought to herself:
~~~~~~~~
I don't fuckin' think so.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

140. I never was into fashionable clothing.

I got the message that I was supposed to be smart and competent, not fashionable.

My mother tried to make me dress like her 1940s role models. When I went off to college, in the 70s, I dressed in jeans and t shirts and had long straight hair. But I was clean. I was not a greasy hippie.

This enraged her. I refused to wear dresses because I was forced to wear them every day for 12 years in public school. I hated it in the winter and froze.

She just couldn't understand how I could have boyfriends and not wear dresses or make up. She had a thing about being dolled up. She didn't understand that my boyfriends were also interested in intelligent conversation. They were all extremely bright and would not have been caught dead in a fraternity.

Hell, in my 20s I remember I had a fit of conscience over buying a shower curtain that had flowers on it. I wasn't used to stereotypically feminine stuff. Eventually I realized that I could be intelligent and wear makeup too, but it took years for that to happen.

I thought that if I wore makeup and nail polish and gave a damn about fashion, I would turn into a brainless shallow woman. It took me years to reconcile that.


Now I have gotten old enough that I don't care what people think about my clothing.

[csziggy]

155. My Mom could not afford to dress fashionably for most of her life

And she brought us up to not consider it important, though a couple of my sisters and at least one of their daughters like "dressing up". I feel most comfortable in jeans and T-shirts - as much because it is the most practical clothing to wear around the farm as that I matured in the 60s and 70s. We just moved and I had three outfits that are "hanging" clothes - a black suit (for an anticipated funeral) and two fancier outfits I bought to wear to weddings.

Makeup was an easy decision for me - I am allergic to most fragrances and other ingredients in the stuff. So I just can't wear it. It never bothered me that I don't dress to fit what is fashionable. But now that I am older, I can pretend it is because of age and not eccentricity.

I once got a survey call about fashion. I had to admit my biggest fashion decision daily is whether to wear a T-shirt with a pocket or one with a picture...

[El Pinko]

139. I don't see why it should.

I'm not a fan of this show. But I see nothing wrong with it if some women want to wear designer clothes and lead frivolous, tawdry, gossipy lives into their forties. If they can afford to, that is what freedom is supposed to be about.

Some woman may want to be housewives. Some may want to be groundbreaking scientists. Some may want to be dour, frumpy feminists, others may want to be fun, colorful feminists. The point is that we are supposed to be able to purrsue happiness in our own ways, and SATC is about a bunch of women pursuing happiness in a way that few women can in real life. Watching their exploits is a form of escapism and is harmless, just like watching Alexis and Krystle's catfights in Dior gowns was harmless 20 years ago.

Only an idiot would think that SATC or Dynasty represent archetypes of what real women are like or should be like. it's entertainment, plain and simple.

By the same token, most men cannot look or behave like Dog the Bounty Hunter or Jason Bourne. It's fantasy and escapism.

[LeftyMom]

141. That nonsense has nothing to be with being a woman.

That's like saying I hate being a Californian because of The OC.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

142. I stand by my points.

I still say the women on SATC represent massive insecurity and lack of self-esteem.They are outer-directed. That is the way society wants us to be. Society wants us to consume and spend money and be obsessed with our appearance.

These women would not need to manipulate men if they felt any real control over their lives. They wouldn't need to be compulsive shoppers to attempt to conceal their real pain.

And I am pretty sure there are real women like this out there.

[EFerrari]

143. Why would that make you hate yourself?

They're selling a product, not an 11th Commandment. You get to decide if you're buying or not.

[VotesForWomen]

145. that movie doesn't define what 'being a woman' means. nt

[VotesForWomen]

146. that movie doesn't define what 'being a woman' means. nt

[Quantess]

147. Here's a good question:

Why are male newscasters allowed to be overweight, while female newscasters are required to be slim? Women only need about 2/3 calories that a man does, so you know those flabby male newscasters eat about 5x as much as their female counterparts.

Edit to add a photo of Neil Cavuto:

[sandnsea]

148. women fuck. deal with it.

what a stupid thread.

[bean fidhleir]

149. Why would you hate being a woman? I could see hating being misidentified with those who like

mindless dreck, but the misidentification isn't your fault.

[Generic Other]

153. so they fake orgasms in the bedroom and CUM over shoes?

Wow. And this is the role model for the American woman? Exlains the divorce rate in our country. Jocks and cheerleaders.

[Captain Hilts]

154. It's straight women acting like gay men. nt

[Hidden Stillness]

157. A More General Approach

I don't know anything about this TV show or movie--a couple of quick snips on TV revolted me completely, so that was the end of that--but I think there were some important points to be made, about the topic as a generality. I don't know if it will annoy people to lose the topic a little here, and just make general remarks, but I think this is a great discussion on that level, too.

Oppressed people very often experience their abuse and ridicule as self-hate, as they feel their group being attacked. After all, the message of commercial media is not "Males are writing this about you," it is, "You are a dumb bitch," "You will screw up everything and do not deserve your job," "Shake your tits," etc. You can only feel your group as hated. There is also a great deal of anger if you feel, or know, that these are all written by males, are not like women at all, and that arguments are being knowingly steered against you, and "women" being made to act like nothing women ever act like--or like males, advancing male opinions--and you just seethe with the hopeless feeling that they are getting away with it, because they own everything. You feel the anger that you control nothing, and that they will present your own people any way they want to, and call it "you."

A lifetime of insulting, offensive characatures of your own people, by a group that protects itself from any similar representation--why do we never hear derisive shouts of "Show us your dick!"--will have its ugly affect. It reminds me of one of the tests that the NAACP prepared for its presentation to the Supreme Court, showing that segregation and discrimination hurt children psychologically. They had a group of black children choose from among which dolls they would like to play with, (early 1950s), black or white dolls, which were the standard. All the kids chose the white dolls. They were asked to explain why none wanted the black dolls to play with. They said the dolls were "ugly," "not nice," "stupid," "not fun," etc. The adults then asked the children, "Which one do YOU look like?" and famously, many children ran out of the room, crying, angry. As if, you bastard, you reminded me that "I" "am" that horrible thing. They had been made to hate themselves. This helped the Justices understand the terrible effect of discrimination, and they won the case, Brown vs. Board of Education of Topeka, Kansas.

Much of the anger is the knowledge that for all the stupid shit that the oppressor was forcing you into, and then calling it "you," there were all the real, and really great, things your people are, that will never be allowed to be expressed. How anyone can claim that women are ever allowed to be ANYTHING, ever, other that the male's definition of "sexual," is just completely dishonest. What the hell else are we ever? Also, our wit is not like typical male "wit," and the women on the male media are never like women. I hate a society that treats my people like shit.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

159. I don't hate being a woman...I just don't like women like that

It's probably due to my love of sensible shoes. I twist my ankles in anything higher than a 1" heel.