Climate Change / Global Warming Poll

[El Pinko]

Climate Change / Global Warming Poll

[truebrit71]

1. We are already past the 'tipping-point'....the only question now is how bad is it going to get?

We can only minimize the impending damage...the fact that it is going to happen is now inevitable...

[cloudythescribbler]

6. We need NET NEGATIVE GREENHOUSE GAS (GHG) EMISSIONS GLOBALLY, and SOON! Jim Hansen, the leading US

climatologist, has said we need to get not merely EMISSIONS down, but the ATMOSPHERIC level of CO2 down, from the present level ~387 part per million CO2 to under 350. That means REDUCTION of GHG levels to about the point where they were in the late 1980s

[defendandprotect]

2. Agree --- and there is no way to figure out in advance how this will compound . . .

the complications are enormous ---

We're hanging by a thin thread now --- water and food supply ---

Think of all the time we've had to figure out that Patriarchy, organized patriarchal religions,
and the war on nature -- "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" --- were suicidal
systems---??? !!! ??? !!!!

All supported by violence and "capitalism" --- an oppressive economic system.

We also have the oil industry -- predominately ExxonMobil to thank for 30 plus years of lies
and disinformation in their propaganda campaigns costings tens of millions.

We knew about this in 1957 ---
We knew about pollutants at that time ---
Everything was coming together in the JFK administration ---
Intelligence ruled ---
Only to be destroyed by the violence of ignorance ---

[defendandprotect]

3. Push & Recommend

[Beausoleil]

4. The observable climate changes in the last ten years

should scare anybody. Most science-supported predictions have not only come true, but have been even more extreme in reality. We can only assume it will get worse and even pessimistic predictions will prove to be too optimistic. If the Gulf Stream conveyor shuts down, all bets are off.

[pbca]

5. Other

Not quite "It's upon us now, and the worst predictions are forgone (20 m sea level rise, frequent superstorms, massive devastation, ice-free polar regions)."

But it is upon us and if the worse is to be avoided DRASTIC action must be taken very quickly.

For example:

Forcing industry to reduce carbon emissions by 50% in the next ten years and at least 10% this year.

Massive investment in public transit

and

Making all private automobiles sold meet a 40-45 mpg milage rating by next year. Banning the use private automobiles that do not meet this rating by the year after. (I say private because delivery trucks, fire engines and busses cannot meet this rating).

[XemaSab]

7. I don't see that ALL of choice one, and the second part of choice three

(such as needing to focus on overpopulation etc) are mutually exclusive.

I think the climate change ship has sailed, and we can't afford to focus on meaningless symbolic climate change actions in lieu of pushing for real environmental protection and/or human development in other areas.

For example, if it's an economic choice between spending $30,000 to put solar panels on ONE roof for ONE American family, or preserving 100 acres of rainforest in Indonesia, I vote for preserving the rainforest. If it's a choice between the solar panels, or building 30 wells in Africa, I vote for the wells in Africa.

[FirstLight]

11. Well put...

I agree that the money we waste on killing eachother and greed could be better spent on helping others and finding greener answers, faster...especially faster. Then I think about the fact that it IS moving so fast and realize that I better figure out how to save my own skin. (and my family/tribe)

Reducing 50% in 10 years is still not enough, that is the reality.
The rapidity of symptoms and impending doom are really trucking now. It has become a runaway train, and not only do we need to stop forward motion, we need to reverse.
I guess if all the ice melts and the magnetic poles shift and the whole of it all gets re-scrambled, we may have some tribes left. But we are about to witness a Noah-esque type of destruction of humanity here. more wells in Africa ain't gonna stop it...though it may keep them alive a little longer, I guess.

Past the tipping point means it has already started the proverbial roll down the other side of the hill...gaining speed until it finally comes to a new resting place...we are but along for the ride. I say buckle up and keep looking for the light at the end of the tunnel. It could even be time to stock up on blankets, an Ice Age could be he next snap, too...


edit - typing too fast! :)

[MedleyMisty]

14. What I don't understand is how people can face that

and say "My ability to consume all that I want right now far far outweighs the right of most of the life on the planet to have a future."

The selfishness is staggering. I mean, you would think that selfishness would lead them to think oh hey, I might want to do something so that my future doesn't suck. Even if they don't care about any other living being ever.

But I guess they think that they'll be dead before the real effects start showing up?

I'm curious - what do you mean by tribe?

[FirstLight]

15. Well, what is it by definition?

I think it is a group of people ranging from 30 - 100...(maybe more in better places with less harsh conditions or more resources)
Maybe it is different family groups, where each person has skills, trade or ability to help the community as a whole. survival of the groups depends on the groups working together cohesively...etc...

And yes, I think often times that we will see that kind of population decimation in my lifetime..I am 38.
The way the globe is changing so drastically so fast now, I definately think it will be within 10 years or so. If it comes faster or sooner to my neck of the woods, I will just have to see if we can make it for a while. I think in some ways my area is safer because it is rural and less populated, so the competition for resources and violence should not be so bad. But the elements here are a bitch, so that could rule us out too.

Who knows, I think we have an opportunity to begin changing our path towards a greener and more conscious way of living. Harmony with the planet and our own patch of dirt is never a bad thing.
I think the elders called it being in "right relation" with all things...

[XemaSab]

8. For anyone who wants to watch the Arctic melt, E/E's got some great links and resources

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=150472&mesg_id=150472

[truebrit71]

19. Some very good stuff there...and a daily stop for me...

..

[phantom power]

9. The arctic might be ice-free this year.

The antarctic is a different story, being buried under thousands of feet of ice. But that's likely to start melting faster than expected.

[XemaSab]

10. .

[Ichingcarpenter]

12. Fox Business News has their own take

[FirstLight]

13. K & R

I want to see this on the front page, too!
We are worried about the state of our lives, the war, gas, food, economy.... and the drastic changes we are about to see are nothing compared to hat may be down the pike in the very near future.
This is a time to speak openly about what we are about to experience, and listen to our ancestors' who survived tides changing on the Earth before us:

Wisdom from the Elders of the Hopi
Nation as we cross the threshold into a cycle of
our journey of awakening.

"You have been telling the people that
this is the Eleventh Hour.

Now you must go back and tell the people
that this is the Hour.

And there are things to be considered:

Where are you living?

What are you doing?

What are your relationships?

Are you in right relation?

Where is your water?

Know your garden.

It is time to speak your
Truth.

Create your community.

Be good to each other.

And do not look outside yourself for the leader.

This could be a good time!

There is a river flowing now very fast.

It is so great and swift that there are
those who will be afraid.

They will try to hold on to the shore.

They will feel they are being torn apart,
and they will suffer greatly.

Know the river has its destination.

The elders say we must let go of the
shore, push off into the middle of
the river, keep our eyes open, and our
heads above the water.

See who is in there with you and
celebrate.

At this time in history, we are to take
nothing personally.

Least of all, ourselves.

For the moment that we do, our spiritual
growth and journey comes to a halt.

The time of the lone wolf is over.
Gather yourselves!

Banish the word struggle from your
attitude and your vocabulary.

All that we do now must be done in a
sacred manner and in celebration.

We are the ones we've been waiting for."

--The Elders, Oraibi, Arizona Hopi
Nation

[hunter]

16. Nature doesn't pay attention to polls.

This civilization is already in the toaster.

[El Pinko]

17. I tend to agree with the second and third choices.

I posted this because I was wondering just how much I'm in the minority here.

It appears considerably so. I personally believe (and scientific data confirms this) that the earth has been in a long-term warming period since long before the industrial revolution, since the last ice age, with the exception of a few interruptions. So I think those of us who believe that the trend would stop if we stopped using greenhouse gas-emitting products are mistaken. Doing so might slow it down, but I think the warming would continue, but there does seem to have been many intermittent periods of glaciation and warming on the earth, and that cycle will probably continue, and as scary as the displacements due to warming may be, the idea of a new glacial period is much more frightening to me.

Also, although I think some sea level rise is likely (we've seen about 10 cm of sea level rise in the last century), I think predictions of 20m rises in sea levels within our lifetimes are premature and rash. Climate models are great but they are not infallible, and I personally would be surprised to see even a meter's worth of sea level rise in my lifetime (and a meter would be a significant rise - enough to cause major displacements and problems in coastal areas.

I'm often hesitant to talk about this because there seems to be an almost religious quality in the firmness of the belief people have in the worst-case scenario coming true - and soon. It's like it's an article of faith - and in science, faith is not a good thing.

And I don't want to be labeled a climate change skeptic or denier, because I'm not. I've been riding my bike and driving econoboxes all my adult life, not because of "warming", but because I hate smog, and I don't believe in wastefulness.

I disagree with those who say that nothing of significance is happening, or that the whole warming thing is just a "scare" intended to cripple capitalism. I'm certainly not enamored of capitalism in the least.

And I'm in favor of everyone doing all they can to reduce consumption of fossil fuels - in fact I never thought the big SUVs should have been road-legal. Passenger cars should be getting an AVERAGE of 35 mpg by this point and all freeways should be toll roads at this point to encourage the use of mass transit.

But I'm sorry, I don't see 20m of sea level rise this century. I'll need to see much more significant sea level rise in the short term to buy that. 1cm per decade is not convincing. Even the whole "superstorms" thing is a little dubious. Yes, there have been more tornadoes in the last few years. But there have been huge crops of spring tornadoes in the spring and summer as long as I can remember, and I'm pushing 40. Now there is more and more sprawl over the south and midwest, so there is that much more of a chance they will hit homes (and don't get me started on today's flimsy home construction).

I don't think the worst-case scenario is impossible, nor to I think it's a given, but the continuing growth of earth's population and our growing inability to feel it is a given, which is why I included that as a choice. The lack of food and drinkable water in coming years is going to be more and more acute as demand for food soars and production stagnates. I think by taking much stronger action to combat population growth, we'd be doing much more to save humanity than by fretting about climate change (which we may be powerless to stop anyway). In fact, if we could get the earth's population back down to 4 or 5 billion within the next century or so, we might actually be able to get an equilibrium that the earth could support and reduce greenhouse gases in the process.

Lastly, there are large corporations and government entities which are supporting the worst-case Climate Change scenarios now - when that happens, you know there are people planning to make large amounts of money from it, one way or another. My guess is that the big money will be in alternative power sources (good) and nuclear (scary as hell). The more the climate change disaster scenarios become a matter of faith in the public, expect less and less resistance to the construction of new nuke plants.

[truebrit71]

18. Thanks for your well presented response. I still think you are wrong about the sea levels though...

...and I think that the changes when they occur will be relatively rapid...folks are talking about sea-rises by the end of this century, with the exponential rate of changes brought on by the myriad of warming gases I think that is overly optimistic...I am in my mid-forties and I firmly believe that before I pop my clogs things will have become dramatically worse...

I have neither the scientific training, nor the expertise to claim anything other than my own beliefs based upon my own research and reading, and I think that we are beyond that tipping point and they only thing we can do now is try and minimize the impact...

[El Pinko]

21. One of the things is that there are always variables that seem to get left out...

A lot of the most disastrous models calling for 20M sea level rise call for a near-total collapse of the Greenland and Antarctic Ice Shelves. The fact that they sit on land means that they will take much, much longer to go away, but even if they did, it is very difficult to predict what effects such enormous amounts of cold fresh water going into the oceans and atmosphere would create. It's also difficult to predict what would happen if the Gulf Stream actually broke down leaving Europe in a deep freeze.


I do believe that we have passed some very ominous tipping points, but the ones I'm more concerned about have to do with population and resources. The earth will eventually shake us humans off and come back into equilibrium in a blink of geologic time. I'm more concerned about humanity, which is breeding and eating and consuming itself to death and it doesn't even seem to realize it.

[Celebration]

20. I mostly agree with you

I voted for number two.

Really, there is a lot we don't know. But for sure we need to clean up the environment and cut carbon emissions, save the remaining rain forests, use green, renewable energy, etc.

And, you can BET that corporate interests will try to use fear to pass measures that are favorable for them.

We could end up with the equivalent of the NCLB for the energy industry (SERIOUSLY)!! Just look at corn for ethanol subsidies!! Even Kennedy was taken in by NCLB. We need a lot of intelligence and vigilence