If the patient were Joe Smith, a plumber from Toledo, Ohio

[question everything]

would he have been quickly scheduled to undergo a brain surgery at Duke?

I am glad that Kennedy survived the surgery and wish him a full recovery and long and healthy life.

Of course, the wealthy will always have better health care. But as I heard this morning about the upcoming surgery and possible experimental treatment with a "vaccine," I could not help - hey, I am a liberal - thinking of the Joe Smiths of the world with similar brain tumors who were told to get their affairs in order, that nothing could be done.

I don't know that there is an answer. Perhaps something that we, I, have to accept as law of nature.

[SharonAnn]

1. These kinds of things are usually scheduled as quickly "as possible". But insurance

approval might have slowed things down for Joe Smith, the plumber.

[TooBigaTent]

3. Sharon - you are correct. The influence of the insurance industry is the major

thing fucking up our health care. Remove the profit and everyone, including Sen. Kennedy and Mr. Smith, would get the best care available.

[AndyA]

7. That's exactly right.

And to some extent, I blame the medical profession. If the nation's Doctors, Dentists, Nurses, Surgeons, etc., all joined together and stated that they couldn't provide the level of care they NEED TO, the level of care they took an oath to provide, due to insurance company regulations, based on their profit margins, I think something would be done quickly.

How does Congress deal with the entire medical care profession saying, "We can't do our jobs adequately. The insurance companies dictate the level and quality of care patients receive. They would rather make a profit than provide adequate care to patients."

Talk about a nightmare...but something would be done about it...and quickly.

[Horse with no Name]

36. Hey there Andy

As a nurse, I am going to address this.
I personally think that we should have ONE license for all nurses and ONE license for all docs that is good in every state in the union. This would also help the areas that experience shortages.
This would prevent substandard practitioners from going state to state wreaking their havoc on the unknowing public.
However...my thoughts are they keep everything state-to-state is to keep the people that WORK in the health industry from becoming too powerful for this reason.

[AndyA]

41. I agree.

It makes no sense that a license shouldn't be good in all states. While state laws may vary somewhat, basic care requirements are the same, and states shouldn't be telling medical professionals how to do their job.

I believe most in this industry are good, caring people who really want to help others, but often can't do everything they'd like to do because of the cost.

[question everything]

45. I think that licensing is an importat source of revenue to the states

and the fee varies from state to state.

Then there is the "supply and demand." I've heard that the difficulty of tests for foreign nationals who want to practice here varies, depending on the supply of that specialty.

[knitter4democracy]

40. The AMA has said that repeatedly.

ACIP (the group for internists) has come out for single-payer, saying the insurance fiasco keeps them from practicing medicine right. I'm sure the ADA has said similar things, too.

The doctors and dentists are saying it, but no one's listening. The nurses have been saying it for ages, and no one's listening. As long as Congress is in the insurance lobby's pocket, no one's going to listen.

[DCKit]

48. "If the nation's Doctors, Dentists, Nurses, Surgeons, etc., all joined together..."

They have and they are and it's going to be a major issue during the next term.

Nobody wants to spend 50% of their working hours (or income) fighting with the insurance companies to get reimbursed.

Since many people in medicine also have a greater degree of empathy than the general population (they didn't all go into it for the money), I can only imagine how they feel when they're denied permission to perform a proven, life-saving surgery because an insurance company says it's "experimental".

[movonne]

9. Yes I think you are right...insurance companies are the problem...

[supernova]

15. Yes, they interfer with treatment plans all the damn time

that is if you can get approval in the first place. :eyes:

[OhioChick]

2. Hell No. n/t

[CTyankee]

4. Not to be snarky about the point of your post, but based on what I've been paying plumbers

lately, I'd say they are in a lucrative profession.

There's an old joke: a lawyer has a pipe burst in the middle of the night, has the plumber come over and fix it. The plumber fixes the pipe in half an hourand says "That'll be $300." The lawyer says "I'm a lawyer and I don't get $600 an hour!" The plumber says "When I was a lawyer, I didn't either."

[MindPilot]

22. The lawyer still makes a lot more.

I have a good friend who is a plumber. (Yes, it works out well, because he has a good friend who's a computer guy) But even at billing $175 an hour for most jobs, he is lucky to end up with $40-50k a year for himself. Tools are phenomenally expensive, there's vehicle expenses and insurance up the wazoo. If he makes a mistake sweating that supply line on the 3rd floor, guess who gets to pay for that damage?

Trust me, your plumber is not making as much as you are paying him. But ask yourself, would you crawl around in raw sewage for $175? Me neither.

[CTyankee]

23. Of course, you are right. I was being tongue in cheek really.

Actually, I blame myself in many respects. If I could have applied myself to learning more about home repairs I could do some of this stuff myself, like replacing the ball cock apparatus in the back of the toilet. I was charged $160 for one little part, not even the entire apparatus. I will end up getting a new toilet, as the old one is quite old, probably.

Spouse and I have masters degrees and have been white collar all our professional lives. Had we been more practical we might be saving ourselves some money right now. So I don't denigrate the plumber at all; he was just doing his job and he did it well...

[question everything]

27. You have to be careful with replacing plumbing in toilets

A newlywed couple bought the house next door. And shortly after that, it appeared that they were gutting the place. There were many service vans and a large dumpster full of stuff including a bath tub and a sink.

Apparently one of these connection in the toilet broke, they were away on their honeymoon, and the water kept gushing, eventually sending the upper floor down. The insurance is paying for everything and they do get to do some changes while at that.

What we were thinking, though - but did not tell them - her dad was doing some work in the bathroom, laying tiles, I think, which would involve removing the toilet. And we wonder whether he did not replace it well enough.

We, too, are both white color workers and always pay for professionals to fix things. We have lived in too many houses where the previous owner was a do-it-yourself guy, with sloppy results.

Plus, you get a professional who is bonded and insured.

[CTyankee]

39. Thanks. That makes me feel better! n/t

[supernova]

5. Remember that Sen Kennedy has already waited 2 weeks

at least. We only know when they announced it. I'm sure they knew about it earlier.

[question everything]

13. Actually, they did not. It was only two weeks ago

when he rushed to the hospital because of seizure and then was diagnosed with brain cancer.

[Saturday]

6. We give our employees the finest of care. nt

[road2000]

8. No one has been a more fierce supporter

of universal health care than Sen. Ted Kennedy.

He just has a better insurance policy than most of us by virtue of his job.

[Kittycat]

10. Agreed, and I must add...

Mr. Smith's of the future will likely benefit by Kennedy making a recovery, so that he can return to the senate and fight to push healthcare legislation through, for families like the 'Smith' family.

[classof56]

12. Well said, Kittycat! n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

14. The health plan which members of Congress have isnt much better than that of other federal employees

[AllHereTruth]

19. Gov healthcare VS. My healthcare

Its much better than what i have Freddie Stubbs. Im one of those that is technically "insured." Honestly tho if i ever came down with a serious disease/injury i would be fucked

Im sure many out there feel the exact same way, there are way too many Joe/John/Jane Smiths in this "great" country.

[classof56]

11. I guess I don't get the point. It's not like he was pushed to the head of the queque

of those awaiting life-saving transplants, a la Mickey Mantle and other celebs who have been afforded that sort of special consideration. I've known several people with brain tumors who have, if their condition was operable, had the surgery expeditiously no matter their financial status.

[question everything]

16. Was he not? I don't know

And I am not so sure about the "no matter their financial status." Hospitals and universities have to cover their expenses, especially since they do have to accept uninsured people and to accept the measly reimbursements by insurance companies.

And immediately after he was diagnosed many said that his tumor was inoperable, however he went to Duke because of its experimental program.

I really don't know how easy it is for a "Joe Smith" to get the best treatment available, perhaps the one of last resort, at a top hospital, the only one in the country with such a program.

But if others know that such an option is available for anyone, I would love to hear about that.

[supernova]

20. Duke takes everyone

I've been a cardiology patient there for 45 years. If they think you're that sick, they take you PRONTO. They worry about the bills later. I was recently quite sick, so I went to their 24hour emergency care office (not the ER). I dindn't have insurance at the time. Unemployed. But I was so sick they called for the ambulence to take me to the ER. I stayed in the ER, got fluids, and got a right dx. Took me a year to pay it off (lol) but it was worth it to have the right information.

Edit: Dr Friedman's office likely didn't make anybody wait for treatment. The only exception I can think if is the surgeon who treated the late King Faud of Saudi Arabia. In that case, he sent for the doc and his favorite RN and flew them to SA for a house call. :P

[Horse with no Name]

37. Mickey Mantle was NOT pushed to the head of the line

I have dealt with Southwest Transplant Alliance in many situations and have never seen them do anything except the ethical thing in every situation where I have had the privilege of working with them.
There is actually a list and that list is adhered to. Depending on circumstances, someone might be #1 on the list one day and #5 the next. It is contingent upon the condition of the patient. Acute liver failure in ICU is now at the top of the list for transplant.
FWIW...you might be interested to know that the recipient guidelines changed since that happened. Was it in response to this?
Possibly.
Mantle would NOT have been eligible to receive a liver under the NEW guidelines, however, under the old guidelines he did, even though he was not the ideal candidate for successful transplantation. Rest assured though, that the fact that he was Mickey Mantle did not enter into it although the financial considerations that have to be met are easier when you have access to fortune and fame.

[classof56]

47. My apologies! Clearly, I am misremembering.

Just recall at the time talk about Mickey and actor Larry Hagman pulling rank to get moved up the list for their transplants. Then there was Erma Bombeck who refused to use her celeb status to get special consideration. Now I have to wonder if any of those stories are true. Been a long time and my 70-year-old brain cells are dying at a rapid rate, making my memory less than accurate on many things. Anyway, I do apologize--in no way meant to impugn Mickey Mantle's character or the system in place for transplant decisions. Was also thinking in Ted Kennedy's situation, while he was getting the best medical care money can provide, I did not have the sense it was in the same way as those awaiting transplants. We see those "help fund this child's operation, etc." collection cans at grocery stores, etc. now and then. Worthy causes for sure, and sad to know our fellow human beings in need are not getting the treatment that would save their lives because of finances. I have known several people with brain tumors who were quickly rushed into surgery and the resultant after-care, some with better results than others, but maybe it was all totally dependent on them having adequate insurance or money to cover the costs.

Thank you for correcting my misconception about Mickey Mantle. Wish things had gone better for him. One of America's sports heroes who will always be remembered for his oustanding career and life.

Tired Old Cynic

[liberal N proud]

17. It would depend on how good his insurance was

When my dad had open heart surgery and pacemaker several years ago, he was treated with all the latest technology.
Later one of the interns commented that he must have really good insurance by the way he was being treated.

[question everything]

28. We know that members of Congress have a very good insurance

a lot better than what most of us have. Though I wonder whether Kennedy is now on Medicare. Most private insurance transfer a subscriber to Medicare once that person reaches 65.

On the other hand, as my spouse observed earlier this evening - for Duke, just to have Kennedy as a patient is an honor and a good PR.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. My best friend's dad had a tumor diagnosed on a Friday

and had surgery on Sunday.

He isn't wealthy. He is a 75 year old retired meat cutter.

[question everything]

29. Hope the surgery was successful

Of course, not every brain tumor is the same, not even hospital in every city is the same.

[madrchsod]

21. hell no.....

[Dogtown]

24. I'm uncomfortable

with the comparison because (no offense) it smacks of the RW "liberal elite" meme.

I don't mean to sound as if I question your loyalty, or the validity of your concern. I just feel this discussion is better tabled under the heading of "health-care reform" until we have reformers in place. As liberals and progressives we certainly want equity in health care but it's very clear that Mr. Kennedy's health is a matter of import; by expediting his hoped-for recovery, we are supporting the needs of the nation.


Too much hangs on his availability to champion our causes to quibble or question on a philosophical issue that's best addressed by a healthy Party.

[Stinky The Clown]

25. A plumber from Toledo may well be in a union and have decent health care

[hootinholler]

26. Look at what happened with Andy Stephenson

There's your answer.

-Hoot

[question everything]

30. I was thinking of Andy

The hospital - a different one, not Duke - wanted to operate as soon as possible; his date of surgery was moved ahead. Yet, because these murderers (I cannot think of a different term) manipulated PayPal, not all the money was there when Andy showed up and he had to wait another week (I think).

[hootinholler]

31. "not all the money was there when Andy showed up"

That's my point. No insurance, money up front. It was scheduled, but, no money, no surgery.

-Hoot

[Saphire]

32. At least he had insurance. My Aunt is dying of colon cancer, and has no

insurance. She has had to quit her job, has moved in with a friend (angel??) and cound't afford to go to Duke even if the treatment were free. We MUST move forward with universal health. I look forward to Teddy getting better and keeping up the fight.

[question everything]

44. I am sorry about your aunt

and it is not just having insurance. Most of us do not realize that there is a lifetime cap on insurance expenses - 1 or 2 million dollars. And some 10 years ago that seemed a lot but a major surgery such as Kennedy had, plus hospital stay and medication and paying all the providers who participate can really add up.

Some 10 years ago I met a young woman who told me that her mother had cancer, eventually maxed up on the expenses - then $1 million - and died. I don't know that it would be that "simple." I suspect that Medicaid or Medicare would kick in.

And, as I pointed in another post - most people Kennedy's age would be on Medicare, whether they choose it or not. Even if they are still in the workforce most private insurance would demand that he subscriber use Medicare as his main insurance.

Whether on Medicaid or on Medicare, I doubt that either would approve such a procedure.

And this is a caveat that we will have to accept if and when we move to universal healthcare. It is bound to set some kind of rations.

[Highway61]

33. No....

however, that being said, Ted has been fighting most of his time during his political career to try to get the SAME coverage that members of congress have for ALL of us. Do your homework....I can't believe you posted that. Sounds like freeper material to me.

[question everything]

46. Now that's a groupthink

Just because Kennedy has been fighting for better health care for all - and, of course, I am aware of it - does not mean that we should not address this issue. Precisely because such a prominent person got a quick treatment is an opportunity for us to point the spotlight on what regular folks do not have.

Keep having this attitude and you are going to be disappointed in your life.

[ColbertWatcher]

34. Would Joe the plumber have been able to hide his medical records...

...like Mr McCain?

I don't think so.

[Horse with no Name]

35. You know..I will NOT criticize a life-saving surgery

or seek to deny such a surgery for anyone...but advocate for ALL treatments to be done this quickly.
I think about the life-saving surgery that Andy needed but could not have UNTIL the money was in their hands.

[raccoon]

38. Off to Greatest with you! nt

[LeftCoast]

42. Who says America doesn't ration healthcare?

Every time Universal coverage comes up, it seems like some right-winger comes out of the wood-work crying about not wanting to ration healthcare 'like in Canada'...

Well, here we are rationing it...

[dawgman]

43. Joe Smith is actually a multi-millionaire NBA player

former #1 overall draft pick.

:shrug:

Sorry it had to be done.