Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

DO NOT support Sen. Webb for VP

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
margotb822 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 12:56 AM
Original message
DO NOT support Sen. Webb for VP
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 01:10 AM by margotb822
Sure, he's been looking good to some people lately. He's southern, has a military background, and talks tough. Unfortunately, there's a huge constituency he repulses: Women. Sen. Webb wants to turn back women's rights thirty years, and he's not afraid to say so.

There is a place for women in our military, but not in combat. And their presence at institutions dedicated to the preparation of men for combat command is poisoning that preparation. By attempting to sexually sterilize the Naval Academy environment in the name of equality, this country has sterilized the whole process of combat leadership training, and our military forces are doomed to suffer the consequences.


(read the whole, disgusting thing here: http://www.washingtonian.com/print/articles/6/173/2182.html)

As a female graduate of the Naval Academy and a member of the Navy, I find Sen. Webb's remarks insulting, but, more importantly, untrue. Maybe he hasn't looked around in a while, but the front lines are becoming increasingly blurred. Does he think we should all stay home with the children and wave flags while our valiant brutes go off to fight and then piss on each other? Please, that era passed long ago. I could go on for ages, but I'll try to keep it short. Women in the military do more good than harm. Women are smart, technically competent and fully able to contribute and lead.

You know who has a problem with it? Men. And not all men, the ones who are not doing as well as the women. I saw it for myself at the Naval Academy. Instead of working hard to earn better grades and class rankings, failing men just blamed the women. We were just handed the good grades and leadership positions. Talk about working twice as hard to get half as far. Now, the men that put in their work and earned their class rankings had no problem with women, just the ones that felt they would have done better if there were no women around.

Sen. Webb espouses this gross position in a distortion of reality and desire for some sort of idealized past. Sorry, Sen. Webb on a ticket would almost be enough for me to stay home, and I'm sure many Clinton supporters and independent women wouldn't appreciate him much either.

Edit: Yes, I realize these views are almost as old as the legislation that they deride. However, it makes me believe that he would not be a candidate that supports change, seeing as how he railed against it in this essay. Millions of women across generations have fought against ideas like this, yet this article is still held up as prime evidence of why women should not be in combat. IMO, it would be better to have a VP that never held views like this in the first place.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. Obama will not pick another Senator. He will not pick a "national security" VP
He's going to pick an ass-kicker, IMHO.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mojambo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. The more I think about it the more sense Brian Schweitzer makes.
I hope he makes the short list.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. Wow. I never even heard of the guy, but thanks to you I just read his bio on his website.
How cool is that? Yeah, Schweitzer works for me, so far anyway.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
18. I'm hoping for Jon Stewart
:P
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ccharles000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #18
45. I agree.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
48. I know a couple of ass-kickers who are national security types.
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 06:19 AM by Clark2008
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
2. That was in 1979. Its time to get over it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Yes that's pretty important point...
1979 was a 30 years ago, and perhaps a more recent quote from Webb on Women in the military might be more helpful?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. as a gal who served from '75 - '79
he did indeed suck big time; I'm curious to know what his stance is now
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RichGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #8
51. Watch this...
Two years ago. He doesn't exactly say he was wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UebXkJhGpyA
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #51
72. he still sucks n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
margotb822 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. Why get over it
Yes, I realize he said that before the first class of women even graduated. However, these words still ring true among many today. Just because he has "changed his mind" doesn't mean he actually has. And, when it hits close to home, I'm going to hold him accountable. I don't buy that "yea, women's movement is great, but..." line.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. You are holding him accountable too late. He's already changed his mind.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
margotb822 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. Obviously, we're going to differ on this
I won't support someone who has ever held views like this. Just like I don't believe someone can be a "reformed racist," neither can they be a reformed sexist. As far as holding him accountable too late, he made these remarks, and regardless of his public change of heart, he is still responsible for all of his views and statements. This issue still carries weight with me, and I'm sure it will with many others.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. have you never changed your mind?
I'm not so keen on Webb, but at least you are honest about why you'd not vote for him. I think that when it comes time to vote, you'll see the forest for the trees.

Otherwise it stinks of concerntrollery when you say things like: "This issue still carries weight with me and I'm sure it will with many others"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
margotb822 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. I have
It's just that this issue has a lot of two-faced supporters. People who "change their minds" publicly, but never change what's in their heart.

This would be my biggest hurdle with Webb, but I'd like to think that it wouldn't stop me from voting for Obama. I know that there's a lot at stake this year. I just would hate to drive voters away, which is why I was trying to convey. My college roommate sent me this article, and she knows I blog, so she asked me to put it out there. We've never had a conversation about politics (ok, except for when I steer it that way and assail Republicans), so I was surprised to see this from her. That is why it makes me think that there are other women out there who would be turned off by him. I've seen this a few imes before, and each time, it gets my blood boiling. I'm confident that Obama would never turn back this legislation. And, I'm sure Webb has good marks on his record, but this is a stain, no matter how he tries to take it back.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Thanks for clarifying
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 01:45 AM by Moochy
I think that his current views should be considered, and while I agree that politicians many just say what is politically or socially expedient, I hope that he has changed his views.

I don't have any preferred VP candidate, but I think Obama is going to surprise everyone and pick someone unexpected.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #28
46. So now...
... you know what is in his heart.

You had kind of a point, but when you say things like "there's no such thing as a reformed racist", well you are, frankly, full of shit.

People change all the time. I did, and I'm pretty sure others have as well.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Electric Flag Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #21
38. So Senator Byrd is still secretly a Klan member, is that what you're saying?
That's a horrible and inhumane view you espouse, that people can never change. Did the war machine do that to you?

I would be fine with Webb as VP at this point, and I say that as a woman.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. from a gay man's perspective he may as well be
his record on my rights is horrible.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mike Daniels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #38
69. I doubt the full conversion of someone who calls someone a "white ni**er"
Which Byrd did not so long ago.

He may have denouced the Klan but I don't buy that he's totally purged himself of the views he once held.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tunkamerica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #21
40. candy was my favorite food
and teenage mutant ninja turtles was my favorite tv show. people can evolve. look at bill murray. they can devolve too. look at dennis miller.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #21
54. So you believe Senator Byrd is a racist then?

You believe John Dean supports the Nixon administration?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #21
63. "Just like I dont believe someone can be a "reformed racist" neither can they be a reformed sexist."
That's a stupid attitude.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DadOf2LittleAngels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #21
66. So you dont believe
Robert Byrd is sincere then?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #21
68. By those standards, Hillary is still a "Goldwater Girl" Republican !
Oh wait.
You may have a point.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #10
42. well, if that's your attitude, you might as well call Sen. Byrd a Klansman
after all, he was one in the '30s. Why "get over that"?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
3. You do know that that essay was written TWENTY NINE YEARS AGO, yes?
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 01:00 AM by TheWraith
And that Webb has since said that he was obviously wrong?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
4. Those views are 30 years old. What are his current views? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
6. Before you castigate him for something he said 30 years ago
why not find out if he still holds the same position?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
margotb822 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. It's the principle
Yes, I believe people can change their minds. And I believe that interacting with women in today's military might have. However, I have seen more "old grads" support women in the military out of necessity than actual conviction. This is still a very powerful essay and is periodically circulated throughout the academies. IMO, it would have been better if he had never held these views. It makes me believe that he doesn't actually know how to embrace real change when he has a chance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. You might want to test your beliefs against his actual behavior.
Many powerful pieces of writing are still circulated in the academy to test the intellect of the students filling the buckets. That's what a classroom is for.

I know nothing about this guy. But I do know that thirty years ago, I barely had a face yet, let alone, a mind. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
margotb822 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. If someone says something, are they not responsible?
People have taken issue with the fact that McCain voted against MLK, Jr. Day (multiple times), yet now he says he supports it. A lot of times, people's first reaction is reflective of their true feelings.

I know a lot of older graduates from military academies have publicly supported women in the military because it's the right thing to do (and it's the law). I've also been "lucky enough" to hear their true feelings (my old neighbor was a 1958 grad of USNA and we had many long conversations). To me, this piece of writing still has legs because so many people still carry these feelings. I can't support anyone who ever felt this way, regardless of how they say they feel now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Then you are more or less stuck with your entrenched opinion, aren't you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
margotb822 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #27
34. On this one, yes
In my experience, there are too many people who are not genuine when it comes to this issue. Honestly, there is nothing he can do to change my feelings about this article. I think that everything he has done since then has been to make up for this article.

Luckily, this isn't going to change how I vote in Nov, in the off chance that he is the VP candidate. I just brought it up because I have strong feelings about it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mind_your_head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
9. I hope Obama picks (not in any particular order).....
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 01:18 AM by Mind_your_head
Kucinich, Feingold, Whitehouse, or some 'regular' honest guy/gal (that won't happen, of course, but it would be most in keeping of what our founders hoped.....at least in today's terms).

on edit to add: Mind_your_head is a 'simpleton' (and proud of it) ~ not involved in all of those 'machinazations' which dishonor us ALL
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Traveler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
11. I think it possible that Webb
has learned a thing or three in the intervening nearly 30 years and has at least partly extracted his head from his ass on this topic.

He has written some really surprising essays on progressive economics over the past couple of years ... surprising to me because he was a former Reagan man and all. People change. People learn. And he has been decisively on our side of the fence for quite a while now.

Still, as much as I like him, I don't think he is necessarily the best choice for VP.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mojambo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
12. He's got very little legislative experience and no executive experience
He doesn't fit well alongside Obama.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. He has more than legislative experience...he has real life experience
and he was the Secretary of the Navy. How can a Secretary of the Navy have no executive experience?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #12
56. Chimpy and the Dick had lots of both...
I don't think that's necessarily a positive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
13. Well, if he hasn't changed that view over the last 29 years, it would be a real red flag
I'd check out whether or not he's evolved in the meantime. In reading the article, it doesn't sound like he had ill intentions. Yes, it is patronizing, but I mean, he may not deserve to be completely thrown under the bus just yet. He did say:

"I should say that I believe most of what has happened over the past decade in the name of sexual equality has been good. It is good to see women doctors and lawyers and executives. I can visualize a woman President."

I do believe people can grow and minds can be opened. But where Webb stands today on this issue is definitely worth checking out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #13
61. I'm wondering what he would have left out of the "sexual equality movement"
"I should say that I believe most of what has happened over the past decade in the name of sexual equality has been good. It is good to see women doctors and lawyers and executives. I can visualize a woman President."

I don't like the idea of Webb as VP either, but of course I'll vote for Obama in the GE no matter who he picks as a running mate - bar *any* Republican - in such a case, I'd vote for Cynthia McKinney.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
19. I haven't caught the Webb fever. He's an ex military brass Reaganite.
And a gun toter. These are supposedly desirable credentials for a Democrat (?)

With Democrats like these, who needs Republicans?

I do give him credit for being an advocate for veterans and hating Bush's guts.

But am very skeptical of him otherwise.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
24. Military Women Strongly Endorse Jim Webb
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 01:21 AM by dkf
"I'll have more on this a bit later, but here are a couple photos from this morning's powerful, moving endorsement by numerous leading military women of Jim Webb. Those making endorsements included Lt. Colonel Kate Wilder (USAR ret.), Brigadier General Clara Adams-Ender (US Army ret.), Captain Barbara Brehm (USN ret.), Major Susan Kellom (USAR), Major Patricia Anderson (USAR), Major Susan Yamamato, Col. Barbara Lee (US Army ret.), Brig. Gen. Pat Foote (US Army ret.), and several others.

The women spoke eloquently and forcefully of their support for Jim Webb as a "man of integrity and vision" who has the "deepest respect for everyone." They also praised Webb as someone who, by opening billets as Navy Secretary to women in the Navy, started a "ripple effect" on all the services that was "crucial" and "has to be emphasized." According to Kate Wilder, "Jim Webb started the ball rolling and that's big."


Wilder read a statement by Brigadier General Pat Foote, in which she said that Jim Webb would "serve more than the vetran population of this state," would "challenge the status quo," wouldn't "dwell on the past" but would "look forward." In sum, according to Foote, Jim Webb is a "winner" and a man of "integrity, wisdom and courage."

Clara Adams-Ender related how she had joined the army in 1959 as a private, and how at the time, people thought she was joining to be around men. Adams-Ender caused the entire room to laugh loudly as she proclaimed that "men have always flattered themselves" in this way. Adams-Ender noted that a young man's sexual boasting was "hardly a basis do disqualify" someone, years later, from positions of leadership in our country. Adams-Ender stated, point blank, that she is "absolutely confident about Jim Webb" vis-a-vis women today. She said she "strongly endorsed" him for U.S. Senate.

Barbara Brehm declared that George Allen's negative ads about Jim Webb and women are "bogus." She talked about how Jim had taken the lead in setting up a "women in the Navy" study group, in putting "no restrictions on that group," and in accepting all the groups' recommendations. Brehm thanked Jim for providing "genuine career opportunities" to women when he was Navy Secretary. Brehm asserted that military women have "moved beyond Jim Webb's Washington article" and are more concerned with electing a leader who will focus on "current issues."

Barbara Lee talked about how Jim was a "young man" when he wrote the 1978 Washington article, and how far he's "moved along" and become "a seasoned leader," a "fully evolved leader," today. In Lee's opinion, "the past is past, let's start planning for the future.""

more at link...

http://www.raisingkaine.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=5203
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
galledgoblin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
25. Wrote "Women Can't Fight" in '79; now OK with military women
http://www.ontheissues.org/International/James_Webb_Homeland_Security.htm
Q: An article you wrote in 1979 was headlined: "Women Can't Fight." You write:

"No benefit can come to anyone from women serving in combat. I have never met a woman, including the dozens of female midshipmen I encountered during my recent semester as a professor at the Naval Academy, whom I would trust to provide those men with combat leadership."

Was the content of that article wrong?

WEBB: This article was written from the perspective of a Marine company commander, and was way too narrowly based.

Q: But was it wrong?

WEBB: I don't think it was wrong to participate in the debate at that time. It's been 27 years, and I am fully comfortable with the roles of women in the military today. When I was secretary of the Navy, I opened up more operational billets to women than any other secretary of the Navy in history.

Q: Bottom line, do you now believe that women can, in fact, provide men with combat leadership?

WEBB: Absolutely.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
galledgoblin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. furthermore, he was a Reagan republican at the time he said that
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
29. In 1987 Webb opened more operational positions for women in the military than any other Navy Sec...
"The military women yesterday stressed that Mr. Webb's point of view 27 years ago mirrored the sentiment that most men held at that time. They also think that Mr. Webb's perspective changed, saying that in 1987 Mr. Webb opened more operational positions for women in the military than any other Navy secretary in history."

http://www.washtimes.com/news/2006/oct/17/20061017-114853-2578r/?page=2
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
margotb822 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Quick, somebody get him a cookie!
Does he deserve a reward for being a reformed sexist? Or is it ok because most people had the same view at that time?

I know I'm being tough on this issue, but I'm not going to let this article go as a "product of the time." To me, every thing he did afterward was to make up for this mistake.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. And the best part is he will make up for this til the end of time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #31
53. People do change their views, you know

I don't believe that Sen. Byrd was "making up" for having been a KKK member. I believe he actually changed his views.

Do you really hold all of the same opinions that you held in 1979?

It would be pretty amazing if you did. I know for sure that I don't.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
32. You do know those were statements made when he was Secretary of the Navy
in the REAGAN administration?

I'd rather have somebody else, but it's been a while
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
35. Are you sure that is Webb?
It sounds awfully familiar to McBush's position.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
papapi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 02:07 AM
Response to Original message
36. This is ancient history child. His position has evolved since 1979. Do more homework.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mind_your_head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 02:12 AM
Response to Original message
37. Who knows?
The truth is that one doesn't/won't get very far in any government position unless they 'tow the line'. Are there any "independent thinkers" out there just waiting to 'break through'.....maybe yes/maybe no.

This whole system is rather sickening/disheartening to those who tend to be 'more forthright'. Kudos? to those who can successfully "play the game".


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beregond2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
39. You don't need to worry about it.
After seeing him on The Daily Show tonight, I don't think he has a chance. He seems like a nice enough guy, with good positions on the issues, but he has all the charisma of a clam. I can't see him adding anything to the ticket, nor being a viable candidate for president himself if it came to that. All the young people Obama has attracted would say: "Why'd you pick my dad?" There are far more exciting choices.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. Last week and for the last couple of months I've been big on Jim Webb...but that was until I saw him
on MTP with Tim Russert on Sunday and the Daily Show tonight...."Charisma of a Clam" is about the nicest way I could have put it...It was really disappointing...His resume and qualifications are all the things I figured Obama needs his running mate to have in order to take on McCain....yet when I saw him interviewed by Tim Russert, I thought, "Okay, he's having a bad day...". Then I saw him tonight with Jon Stewart and I couldn't help but think "In contrast to Obama, he will look like stale toast". That's not good....And even in terms of whether that isn't relevant to people who want Obama in, what about after two terms??? Would the Obama legacy be able to be carried on by Jim Webb when he ran for President (as the two term VP?)??? The answer that comes back to me is No....Don't get me wrong...I think he's a good guy...But maybe he could be Sec. of Defense in the Obama campaign???

PS: To answer the original post about Jim Webb's sexism related to women in the military, that's an old story I was fully aware of when he ran for the Senate, because it came out and he has long since stated that his views changed....why this is being stated now as if its his current position....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
44. It's a distortion of reality to say that he "espouses this gross position"
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 05:54 AM by lostnfound
He "espoused" that position; he doesn't espouse it now. I don't blame you for being angry about it considering your background, but he IS a good man and he IS capable of changing his mind a lot over 21 years.
I suggest that you not turn comrades into enemies NOW over one position that they took 20+ years ago -- he is fighting the good fight in ways you probably aren't aware of. He is a huge asset on OUR side -- the side of the real patriots who care about our country being taken over by thugs and chickenhawks.

I don't think he would take the VP slot, but I wouldn't stand in his way if he wanted it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 06:02 AM
Response to Original message
47. Webb will make a great VP.
I'm not a one-issue voter. I expect to disagree with every politician on some issues.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
smiley_glad_hands Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
49. Webb is a 1000% better than the last POS we had as a senator here in VA.
No one is perfect. But I don't want him as VP either. He needs to stay right where he is, no need for allen to get his hopes up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
50. So fight for women to be given front-line combat positions.
Your argument should be with those that prevent women from being assigned to front-line combat positions. If you believe women soldiers are just as capable as men, then why aren't you demanding a position on the front lines? Not "blurring the lines", not supplying or supporting the front line soldiers, but putting a pack on your back and a rifle on your hands.

So why aren't you agitating for your rightful spot as cannon fodder, soldier? And, more importantly, how is criticizing Webb going to get you to the front line? :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LucyParsons Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
52. I am a radical feminist, and, considering all his other positions, I am more than willing to
give him a chance to explain his prior (and, yes, as you admit - thirty years prior) views on this subject. Having not served in the military myself, I am not even sure if maybe he doesn't have a point. This is not a deal-breaker for me, and certainly not enough reason to make me stay home (=vote McCain).

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
55. His statements 30 years ago are not a deal breaker for me.

Women will become more and more a complete part of the military. It takes time. Changing the military is like water wearing away rock. The water always wins eventually.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
57. Am I the only feminist who wouldn't want to be on the front lines?
:hide:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #57
64. Obviously not. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #57
65. IMO we feminists should make it our business to stop war forever
not enable it by volunteering.

(a defensive war is different--it's still important to allow military training for anyone who wants it, regardless of sex, just in case everyone has to pitch in to defend the country)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
58. I would really prefer a very strong feminist as a VP
someone very committed to women's rights rather than a national security type.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
59. I agree with him about front lines
and if you haven't been on the front lines you don't belong leading others there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
60. Webb is a terrible choice
Very new Senator, ex Republican, ex sexist...no charisma to speak of. I see no advantage with him at all. If he is to be considered, I'd like to hear a detailed description of how and why he stopped being a Republican, and also how and why he became a Democrat. Clearly spoken repudiation of his former strongly held positions, not just 'that was a long time ago'. When Webb was a Republican I was a Democrat. When he worked for Reagan, I was protesting that administration constantly. He stood with them. I stood against Webb and Reagan. So the reasons and thoughts behind his switch are very important. He was the enemy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
62. I agree with your conclusion, but not with your reason
That was from decades ago. He's evolved quite significantly since then.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
npincus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
67. he's apologized for that, and has evolved beyond.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
70. Should we also reject every VP candidate who in 1979 opposed gay marriage?
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 12:14 PM by pnwmom
We're not going to have very many eligibles if we hold all our candidates to their positions on issues 30 years ago.

Webb has learned something in the intervening decades, like most of us. And he's strongly pro-choice.I don't think he would be a bad candidate for women.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
margotb822 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
71. My final thoughts
The other day, I started a discussion about Sen. Jim Webb’s 1979 editorial railing against women in the military. The reaction of the general population? “Get over it.” And it made me wonder, if his statements had been about race instead of gender, would people tell me to let it go already? Doubt it. In the grand scheme of things, the past sexist ravings of a potential Vice Presidential candidate aren’t deal breakers. When I cast my ballot in November, I will be voting for Obama and his message of change. However, I believe that his number two also needs to be an agent of change, and this gives me reason to believe that Sen. Webb is not that person.

If we look at race, we can see what happened with Ron Paul. A series of writings dating back to 1978, penned under his name, espouse extreme racist and anti-Semitic views. And instead of people “getting over it,” they were shocked, outraged and disgusted by these views. Paul has claimed that he is not responsible for those writings and that he is not, nor has he ever been, racist. But, no matter, the damning label stuck. Why should sexism be any different?

I have definitely been berated for my lack of forgiveness towards Webb. People asked me if I believe that no one is allowed to change their mind, if I believe that Sen. Byrd is a still a racist (yes, I do), if I think Hillary Clinton is still a Goldwater Girl (sometimes it seemed like it, but no). I do believe that people can change their minds, but I think it’s harder for them to change their hearts. It also leads me to wonder whether we have to forgive and forget everything a person does as long as they apologize for it. Can a person spew hatred and then apologize when his position is no longer popular? “I said some hateful things in the past. Sorry. Here’s a grand gesture to make up for it.” It’s easy to say something that sounds good. It’s also easy to do something that the public supports, whether or not you believe it. In my mind, Sen. Webb will always be accompanied by a question mark when it comes to women’s rights.

As a minority in both the categories of race and gender, I am “lucky” enough to bear witness to discrimination on both points. As a female in the military, I can tell you that sexism is still alive and well. And while I do my best not to be a victim of sexism, it is constantly simmering right underneath the surface, tainting conversations and altering perceptions. I had an officer on my first ship that would send women off their watch stations if they “smelled too good.” Apparently, the first step to being a “real” sailor is not competency or skill, but smelling as if you’ve never been introduced to soap and deodorant. On a daily basis, women in the military are subjected to words and actions that would shock the civilian world. Actions that would get civilian men fired are acceptable in the military. And women often have no choice but to let it slide, lest they be painted as a whiner who can’t hack it.

I was in the 25th class to graduate women at the United States Naval Academy. No person who graduated in that class was alive before women were allowed into the service academies. Yet, there was constant, prevalent discrimination against and belittling of women. In a world of quotas, every woman’s accomplishment was attributed to “filling a quota” not her personal drive or ability. Men, on the other hand, earned everything they received. After my first midterm grades came out, my company officer, a Lieutenant, looked at the grades, and then looked at me and said “Wow, you actually are smart.” Well, gee thanks. I guess he missed the fact that it’s actually harder for women to be accepted into military academies. Approximately 2% of female applicants are accepted, as opposed to 9% for males.

The anti-female feelings still burn strong at our nation’s service academies. Outwardly, many men support women in the military, but behind closed doors, the sentiments are different. I will always be wary of someone who was so passionately against something that they now support. And, allowing women to hold more integrated and combat related roles in the military is still a battle. I don’t consider myself a super-feminist and I’ve been known to speak out against preferential treatment towards women. I believe that it only hinders our advancement and breeds resentment among men. While I attended the Naval Academy, the superintendent took bold steps to advance women, including the outlaw of derogatory terms and even changing the words in the alma mater. I’ve personally spoken with men who are angry and resentful towards women for changing “their” school. One of my neighbors was a 1958 grad who is against women in the military, but liked me and believed in me. He has yet to come around to fully support women in the military, but through me he saw that women were, in fact, compatible with the beliefs and teachings of the Naval Academy.

I think that when a majority of people look at the editorial by Sen. Webb and then his consequent actions, they see enough of a “change” to let it go. I think that these are also people who have never actually been through this warped world. When I look at Sen. Webb, I see someone who was passionately against women in the military. When I read his words, I feel the hatred and derision rising up from the page. I also see a political death trap. Jim Webb has been running from these words since the day he wrote them. What I see is someone trying to compensate for hatred that hides in his heart. I know the two-faced, politically convenient positions that men have taken over the years, and to me, Sen. Webb is no different.

I may never believe that Sen. Webb has truly had a change of heart. His position shift stinks of political convenience not genuine feeling. Unfortunately for Sen. Webb, his 1979 remarks were made at a time when women had demonstrated their competence and ability in technical and leadership positions. He is the one that opened his mouth and let his sexism show. He may see now that women are an integral part of our nation’s fighting force, but that will never fully excuse him from his past behavior. Has he repented? Yes. Willingly and whole-heartedly? We’ll never know. I will always doubt the sincerity of Sen. Webb’s subsequent actions regarding women in the military. It may be unfair or small-minded of me, but I treat claims of reformed sexism the same way I treat those of reformed racism, with skepticism and hesitation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 18th 2024, 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC