Tinfoil hats, cheap TINFOIL HATS! CHEAP TINFOIL HATS!

[nadinbrzezinski]

Ok we have heard the excuses

1.- We don't have the majority

2.- We have the majority but we have an agenda

3.- We have the majority but we are running out of time

4.- Well, we have an election to win

5.- We need a Democrat in power.

My preferred reason, the one not mentioned...

We are complicit with the crimes and if we started a-digging, we'd find that out... either by omission or commission, but we are guilty

And yes, there are many reasons why THEY TRULY are still afraid of the bushes... and lord knows I've heard some from people "in the inside" but this does not excuse this.

And to all those who are falling for the excuses, you are complicit as well

But wait, I am not in power... you say....

That is why we ran denazification programs after WW II... because the lowly school teacher WAS responsible and in denial. Why Ike ordered many of these low level civilians to tour the camps soon after they were liberated

The only way that evil can take hold is when men and women of conscience refuse to speak out. We have had a few... and every time they do... they get sneered by the Reality Based (read co-complicit) community.

Oh and history will be a harsh mistress, not only with George, for committing all the crimes he has committed... but every member of Congress who refused to take a stand for political expediency, as well as every American who refused to speak out. And some of us will not forget either... for the moment we are witnesses to the actions of the Good Americans, who like clockwork repeat the usual excuses.

Yes, we will not forget... and I fear in many cases forgive.

Perhaps I am so hard core about this since my dad survived the holocaust... but his story was still distant

Perhaps I am so hard core about this since I know the crimes of Iran Contra (to which I had a front row seat) were never prosecuted. but rather swept under the rug... and I expect these crimes to be also swept under the rug... for the "good of the country."

So remember, your actions speak loudly... and you are also responsible for what is going on... and so am I. for failing to stop this since it started five years ago. I am tired... I am damned tired... but I will not stop... until I draw my last breath.

[conscious evolution]

Thank you

[texastoast]

1. Maybe send some pots and pans to the Beltway? n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Unless I sent them a reference to Chile,

and then they MIGHT get it.

What we need, and won't get is a national strike

[DWilliamsamh]

99. HERE HERE! I am amazed that there haven't been thousands in the streets

after every new chip at out freedoms and dignity. I have been trying to tell people exactly this: IT IS OUR FAULT TOO. Thanks for your post.

[defendandprotect]

107. America hasn't recently, if ever, been a well-oiled kind of "get out in the streets" nation . . . ??

Presumably after FDR and the New Deal, lots of people became much less political --- ???

How many of us came from political families?

[az chela]

2. BRAVO

[Individualist]

4. Hear, hear!

Nos. 1 through 5 are DLC memes.

You're so right when you say those who are falling for the excuses are complicit as well.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Well there are two parties in theory

but in reality both sides have members of the Imperial Party

The DLC is the Dems version of the Imperial party

[Wizard777]

41. Our humble beginnings. The Democratic Republican Party.

Originally we were the SAME party. The party split around the time of the civil war. The other two parties, The Whigs and The Federalists, were devoured. The Democratic Party and Republican Party have kept America choosing between the lesser of two evils ever since then.

[mac2]

60. Read: "Lying for Empire"

I know what you say is true.

[truedelphi]

80. And sadly, it has been the THIRD party

That so often introduced the "revolutionary" or "communistic" party platforms leading to real social change (No child labor, vote for women, 40 hour work week, health and safetyprotections for workers, etc.)

[defendandprotect]

103. Why is that "sad" . . . ???

I mean . . . other than that our own two parties ignored human rights issues and workers rights...??

IMO, this country's greatest shame is that so few aided the African in slavery, so few aided the African caught for a second time in Segregation, Inc. for another 100 years.

African-Americans to our great shame were left totally on their own to save themselves, to deliver themselves to freedom -- and they did. And that speaks to their great character and great courage.
Our shame . . . their courage!

And I'd also point out that this was done with NON-VIOLENCE . . .

*******************************************************************

Women have also been delivering themselves to freedom in the same way.
NON-VIOLENTLY ---
******************

Homosexuals among us, as well --- delivering themselves to freedom with NON-VIOLENT MOVEMENTS
****************************************************************************************

AND, right now we may be looking at the leadership of an African-American to lead us back to
freedom . . . ???

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. Not quite... the Democratic-Republican Party is the Party of Jefferson

the Dems are the standard bearers of that

The GOP was formed in 1852 by disaffected Whigs....

The Imperial Party does not officially exist, but has members in both major parties

[defendandprotect]

105. The Elites have interests and they monitor them very diligently . . .

All of the hierarchies, CIA, whatever . . . are headed by them ---

[wildbilln864]

6. Very well said!

:yourock:

[FirstLight]

7. YES

I am so pissed and apalled that this isn't geting any airplay, after watergate and iran contra and even bill and the lewinsky mess were televised and watched by everone. WHAT is going on here?

There is no excuse to sweep this under the rug, but it may well be swept. And though you say history wil be a cruel mistress...there may not be much history to go if we keep down this road...

I fear that te tendrils are much too deep, you are right...even the schoolteacher who spews the Bushit is an acessory to the crime. But it would seem society at large is numb and will just walk like lemmings to the edge of the precipice.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. All empires come to an end, and this one is already falling and fast

people will be forced to face their responsibly sooner or later.

And if later, Shoa and the reaction of the German Youth comes to mind

They were ashamed of their parents.

I foresee something similar here

[defendandprotect]

110. This is not just "Empire" coming to an end . . . this is the whole magilla --- patriarchy,

organized patriarchal religion, capitalism ---

And it will be nothing compared to Global Warming ---

But, today was a big sale day at one of our stores ---

And, "I Love Lucy" is still on TV . . .

[Moochy]

9. Very happy to K&R this post

The only one I feel a little bad for tonight... is the House Clerk, Susan Cole who is heroically re-reading the Impeachment resolution into the record again.

She'll be OK though. :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. I am sure somebody is giving her cough drops!

:-)

[Dr.Phool]

56. She'll need them.

Dennis could hardly speak when he finished.

Too bad it's all falling on deaf ears.

[whistle]

53. I hope she does it with enthusiasm and vigorous will

[Swamp Rat]

11. IMPEACH!

[KoKo]

14. IMPEACH! The Crimes of the Holocaust are not "distant" in my memory

and I'm not Jewish but of that time. We must not forget the Bush Crimes...and the Crimes of that FAMILY THAT GO BACK TO THAT TIME!

Just because he's a "charming Oaf" to many does not mean he should be treated by history...as a "charming Oaf run by folks that would happily have imprisoned or exterminated ..not only Jews but ANYONE who Stood in their WAY! IMPEACH... There have always been "charming criminals" who escape because they have friends and family in "high places" but our country was supposedly founded on RULE OF LAW and even though it didn't work for over a Hundred Years for African-Americans and Women...that doesn't mean that we shouldn't still try to keep our Consitution whole. And these "Officials, elected by a corrupt Court" have defied the only other Branch of Government we still have that can provide the "Checks and Balances."

IMPEACH! IMPEACH! Because if we don't we will NEVER GET ANY SUBPOENA's or HEARINGS EVER AGAIN on these CRIMINALS! They will leave office and go on and make more and more money...thumbing their noses at us.

Their trail goes back to Nixon and in the "charming oaf's case" his family goes back to Holocaust and beyond. IMPEACH! HAVE THE HEARINGS...GET THE DISCOVERY and IMPEACH.

(I know...I sound unhinged...but this has gone on too long and too many of us have spent too long trying to get these Criminals held accountable!) IMPEACH! Start Hearings and let them go on after the Inauguration so they can't PARDON THEMSELVES but can be held accountable to CIVIL CASES! If we don't get them now...we will NEVER have the chance again...!

[Swamp Rat]

17. You are preaching to an Impeachment Zealot who attends the Church of Kucinich

:D Have a Keebler cookie... Body of Kucinich. :9

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Can I get an AMEN!

AAAAAAMMMMMMEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNN

[KoKo]

24. OOP's...sorry...thought I was replying to OP...Thanks for that cookie...

it's good...helps raise my flagging blood sugar....

Too long a Primary...I AM starting to sound "unhinged." :crazy:

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. You know when you hear only one story from your dad

who keeps his cards close to the vest... the holocaust as a FAMILY history, becomes very distant

That is something people who DIDN'T grow in a survivor's home miss.

Rarely will survivors actually open up and SPEAK so the only way you can find what happened to them is to go take advanced courses in history... but it is never YOUR story


Go talk to kids of survivors someday

Now when you HEAR very detailed reports of torture, rape, starvation, and other horrors from perfect strangers, this becomes VERY REAL.

And I wish that my dad didn't want to protect me.... not even after I started hearing stories from CA that shared a lot in common (from the historical record) with the Holocaust.

Yes, Baby Yar happened, so did the murders in the jungles of Guatemala, and they had one thing in common, long hole in the ground, people forced to the ground, on their knees, and heavy machine gun fire... the only difference, color of skin and language spoken, but racial purity IS racial purity.

Now, do have a cookie! I have some chocolate chip round these parts with Splenda! Or would you rather have some fast acting Carbs?

[JDPriestly]

33. How right you are, nadinbrzezinsk

[KoKo]

34. In a way I think that's understandable...

Having gone through such a terrible time...one's memories are so painful that one want's to forget or maybe not share because they've moved beyond it.

I posted because I think not being Jewish but being a close WWII Baby...my memories of what went on are very acute. I love history and there was just so much angst and anger about the Holocaust that even though I'm not Jewish...I always felt it could happen to anyone...and I had good teachers who made a point to remind us kids that this was a crime against "humanity" ...as a caution.

That's why it's so important to hold those Bushies Accountable. They would do this to any "victim" and we have seen that everyone who is outside their group or has something they want will be ground under their boots.

They cannot leave office and never be held accountable...they just can't.


No Splenda...Swampie's "Body of Kucinich" was all I needed.. :D

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Sadly I expect them to walk

just like reagan walked, just like Bush Senior walked, and why we are facing these crimes, is because nobody did a damn thing about those crimes of the 1980s.

Papers were compiled... but Clinton swept all under the rug...

Call me cynical

But I fear the only way these folks will face justice is what some Germans called Nuremberg, Victor's Justice, with all that this implies

Oh and good that you had enough with the body of kucinich cookie

:-)

[Nostradammit]

44. Body of Kucinich!!!

:rofl:

[JDPriestly]

32. Thanks for your post, KoKo01

[Raster]

12. Cowards and collaborators. Plain and simple.

[malaise]

13. They will learn that these goons have no plan of going away

If Nixon and his goons had been dealt with, there would be no Cheney and Rumsfeld. The same is true of Iran-Contra. Leaders who violate the constitution must pay.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. I fully agree, I have said it at times

I don't expect elections...

[mac2]

61. Yet we play this game of "change" when they don't plan

any but removing our democracy.

[Wizard777]

16. The only thing more corrupt than what Bush & Cheney have done. Is letting them get away with it.

[seemslikeadream]

19. The world is watching and if the congress does not take care of bush and cheney

they will



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3425597&mesg_id=3425597



AND LOOK AT THIS
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x145851

[truedelphi]

81. Those are excellent links, and thank you, SLAD. n/t

[Octafish]

20. Thank you for putting it into words, nadinbrzezinski.

Why should telling the truth require a "Tinfoil Hat"? Well, the big picture is a scary thing for many people. So, they'd rather ignore it. Odd behavior, that. It serves the purposes of the treasonous, warmongering, mass-murdering, thieving liars who stole their way into office in 2000. They, and the evil bastards they serve, work to keep their conspiracies classified as Top Secret, knowing their stacked courts have never ruled against "National Security." So, couch potatoes! Go on! Put on a tin hat. Ignore reality at your own peril. What you don't know not only can -- it will -- hurt you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. At this point the inaction leads me to the idea that

there is open collusion at the upper levels of both party leaderships

Hence the tinfoil hats

:-)

[OneGrassRoot]

47. I wholeheartedly agree. Thank you for putting this into words....

so clearly and eloquently.

It's the "open" collusion that is the killer. No one bothers to hide it, it's blatant.

Everyone is DC has become a "strategist" for one thing or another, though never for the good of our country or its people. A huge, destructive, criminal game.

[tavalon]

50. Yes, collusion is what has been swirling in my head since we "won"

the election of 2006. Pelosi must let this go forward or be prepared to stand at the Hague as a collaborator. But I doubt she sees the second one as a likely outcome. I hope she is wrong, because to block impeachment is to be a collaborator.

[Ilsa]

21. "Only Dennis and Bob from FL got around to reading the threat report on Iraq."

The rest of us were too effin lazy to go read the document.

Okay, I know more people than Dennis Kucinich and Bob Graham got around to reading it. But not many more. The rest didn't bother, so they were negligent in their duties. And now they are negligent again.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

28. And yet at the same time, I wouldn't trust Bob Graham as far as he can be thrown.

He had pre-knowledge of the attack on the WTC. Do a Youtube search.. Randy Glass.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. The complicity has been going on a long, long time

I first banged my head against the wall when the Dems, who had a majority in both houses of Congress for Reagan's first two years, meekly passed most of his dreadful agenda. Only a few brave souls stood up to him, but too many nattered on about "bipartisanship" and voted "aye" and failed to support the victims of Reaganism. (The early Reagan years are the reason that I gag when someone mentions Sam Nunn as a vp candidate, and I still don't quite trust Al Gore.)

That's why I burst into tears the first time I heard Kucinich speak in 2003. I'd been waiting for an elected Democrat--not a Green, not a Socialist, not a Nation editorial, but an elected Democrat-- to tell the friggin' truth about what our country has become.

When I saw how DK was marginalized and belittled by the DLCers on this board, not to mention the MSM and I knew the game was rigged. This election cycle has only confirmed my distaste for the mainstream party, as the field of candidates was quickly whittled down to my last two choices and the two camps went out for blood, fighting over trivialities, because frankly, neither candidate will seriously rock the boat, unless Obama is playing unusually coy.

It's sad to think that many younger DUers have never known a time when the Democratic Party was actually acting instead of reacting.

[KoKo]

27. Well Said......

Like you I :banghead: at all of it...so many primaries and elections...so much lost.. We can't keep doing this..

[Dunedain]

38. Men like

the "Happy Warrior" or that green bus fellow.

[G_j]

90. yes

you speak for me also, thank you!

[defendandprotect]

111. I c heer what you are saying . . .

and I didn't even fully understand all the damage that was being done at that point ---
I wasn't political --- I actually voted twice for Reagan before I woke up!!!
Could I have dreamed that there are forces which wanted to truly bring down our government?
Destroy the citizens of our nation?

Imagine that people here consider Kucinich and Edwards "un-electable" . . . what could they
possibly be thinking? I'm afraid to know!!!

[Missy Vixen]

25. And here I thought I was the only one

>We are complicit with the crimes and if we started a-digging, we'd find that out... either by omission or commission, but we are guilty<

I thought I was cynical and the above couldn't be true. Over the past several months, it becomes obvious that, perhaps, it is.

God help us all. :scared:
Julie

[JDPriestly]

29. Who was complicit with torture?

Who was complicit with the abuse of the power of the Justice Department?

Who was complicit with the theft of billions from our national treasury? from the taxpayers?

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Commission or Omission... these are legal principles

and this is where we are

[JDPriestly]

36. I think that you would not be able to find a Democrat who was

complicit with the torture.

Randi Rhodes and Jonathan Turley theorized that Democrats in Congress don't want to impeach the president because they fear that leading Democrats were complicit with Bush's crimes. I think you could find quite a bit of criminal behavior with which no Democrats were complicit -- or even silent.

Democrats have tried to get information about Bush's role in the Justice Department's abuse of power and the outing of Plame but Bush has obstructed those efforts. The Congress has not been complicit. It has been intimidated.

I fear that Congress thinks that impeachment proceedings would be inconvenient and distracting. They are wrong. The history of NAZI Germany instructs on this. I am now reading The Lost City by John Gunther. He tells about life in Vienna beginning in 1931. So far I love the book. I know a lot of about the history of the NAZIs and lived in German speaking countries.

Congress' first duty is to protect the Constitution. They are failing to perform that duty. They are making a huge mistake.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. And to me this is now at the very least

enabling crime, which again is criminal behavior

The only ones that could avoid those charges are the few who have actually done something... but the leadership... it will be hard for them to defend themselves.

Why I said, commission or omission

[warren pease]

73. And yet, here's an undisputed article naming democrats who were/are complicit in OKing torture...

Four of them -- including Pelosi -- were briefed by the CIA on waterboarding in 2002, were concerned that the "interrogation techniques" were "tough enough" and in the process became accomplices to BushCo's war crimes.

Remember this December 2007 Washington Post story about these dems getting a "virtual tour" back in 2002 of some of the CIA's offshore black sites, at which time CIA briefers revealed the use of waterboarding as a standard interrogation method?

Hill Briefed on Waterboarding in 2002 In Meetings, Spy Panels' Chiefs Did Not Protest, Officials Say

By Joby Warrick and Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, December 9, 2007

In September 2002, four members of Congress met in secret for a first look at a unique CIA program designed to wring vital information from reticent terrorism suspects in U.S. custody. For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA's overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.

Among the techniques described, said two officials present, was waterboarding, a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill. But on that day, no objections were raised. Instead, at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder, two U.S. officials said.

"The briefer was specifically asked if the methods were tough enough," said a U.S. official who witnessed the exchange.

...

Yet long before "waterboarding" entered the public discourse, the CIA gave key legislative overseers about 30 private briefings, some of which included descriptions of that technique and other harsh interrogation methods, according to interviews with multiple U.S. officials with firsthand knowledge.

With one known exception, no formal objections were raised by the lawmakers briefed about the harsh methods during the two years in which waterboarding was employed, from 2002 to 2003, said Democrats and Republicans with direct knowledge of the matter. The lawmakers who held oversight roles during the period included Pelosi and Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.) and Sens. Bob Graham (D-Fla.) and John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), as well as Rep. Porter J. Goss (R-Fla.) and Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kan).

Individual lawmakers' recollections of the early briefings varied dramatically, but officials present during the meetings described the reaction as mostly quiet acquiescence, if not outright support. "Among those being briefed, there was a pretty full understanding of what the CIA was doing," said Goss, who chaired the House intelligence committee from 1997 to 2004 and then served as CIA director from 2004 to 2006. "And the reaction in the room was not just approval, but encouragement."

...

Pelosi declined to comment directly on her reaction to the classified briefings. But a congressional source familiar with Pelosi's position on the matter said the California lawmaker did recall discussions about enhanced interrogation. The source said Pelosi recalls that techniques described by the CIA were still in the planning stage -- they had been designed and cleared with agency lawyers but not yet put in practice -- and acknowledged that Pelosi did not raise objections at the time.

That's how you neuter the opposition. At that point, the Bushies owned Pelosi's ass for as long as they wanted it. Virtually speaking, of course.

By not immediately going public and condemning the CIA's routine use of torture, and specifically waterboarding, she tacitly agreed to ignore gross violations of the Eighth Amendment ban on cruel and unusual punishment. This made her an accessory after the fact to BushCo's war crimes.

By her silence, Pelosi's also remains complicit in BushCo's daily violations of worldwide bans on torture, another violation of the Eighth Amendment and a breach of Article VI of the Constitution that requires the US to comply with international treaties it's a party to. Chalk up another series of war crimes for Madame Squeaker.

All the above puts her right in the administration's deepest pocket and completely eliminates her as a political threat.

Of course she doesn't want a Congressional investigation into torture. Of course she doesn't want impeachment.

And she's still the House speaker because...?


wp

[warren pease]

74. How about these complicit frauds listed here?

Four of them -- including Pelosi -- were briefed by the CIA on waterboarding in 2002, were concerned that the "interrogation techniques" were "tough enough" and in the process became accomplices to BushCo's war crimes.

Remember this December 2007 Washington Post story about these dems getting a "virtual tour" back in 2002 of some of the CIA's offshore black sites, at which time CIA briefers revealed the use of waterboarding as a standard interrogation method?

Hill Briefed on Waterboarding in 2002 In Meetings, Spy Panels' Chiefs Did Not Protest, Officials Say

By Joby Warrick and Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, December 9, 2007

In September 2002, four members of Congress met in secret for a first look at a unique CIA program designed to wring vital information from reticent terrorism suspects in U.S. custody. For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA's overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.

Among the techniques described, said two officials present, was waterboarding, a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill. But on that day, no objections were raised. Instead, at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder, two U.S. officials said.

"The briefer was specifically asked if the methods were tough enough," said a U.S. official who witnessed the exchange.

...

Yet long before "waterboarding" entered the public discourse, the CIA gave key legislative overseers about 30 private briefings, some of which included descriptions of that technique and other harsh interrogation methods, according to interviews with multiple U.S. officials with firsthand knowledge.

With one known exception, no formal objections were raised by the lawmakers briefed about the harsh methods during the two years in which waterboarding was employed, from 2002 to 2003, said Democrats and Republicans with direct knowledge of the matter. The lawmakers who held oversight roles during the period included Pelosi and Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.) and Sens. Bob Graham (D-Fla.) and John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), as well as Rep. Porter J. Goss (R-Fla.) and Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kan).

Individual lawmakers' recollections of the early briefings varied dramatically, but officials present during the meetings described the reaction as mostly quiet acquiescence, if not outright support. "Among those being briefed, there was a pretty full understanding of what the CIA was doing," said Goss, who chaired the House intelligence committee from 1997 to 2004 and then served as CIA director from 2004 to 2006. "And the reaction in the room was not just approval, but encouragement."

...

Pelosi declined to comment directly on her reaction to the classified briefings. But a congressional source familiar with Pelosi's position on the matter said the California lawmaker did recall discussions about enhanced interrogation. The source said Pelosi recalls that techniques described by the CIA were still in the planning stage -- they had been designed and cleared with agency lawyers but not yet put in practice -- and acknowledged that Pelosi did not raise objections at the time.

That's how you neuter the opposition. At that point, the Bushies owned Pelosi's ass for as long as they wanted it. Virtually speaking, of course.

By not immediately going public and condemning the CIA's routine use of torture, and specifically waterboarding, she tacitly agreed to ignore gross violations of the Eighth Amendment ban on cruel and unusual punishment. This made her an accessory after the fact to BushCo's war crimes.

By her silence, Pelosi also remains complicit in BushCo's daily violations of worldwide bans on torture, another violation of the Eighth Amendment and a breach of Article VI of the Constitution that requires the US to comply with international treaties it's a party to. Chalk up another series of war crimes for Madame Squeaker.

All the above puts her right in the administration's deepest pocket and completely eliminates her as a political threat.

Of course she doesn't want a Congressional investigation into torture. Of course she doesn't want impeachment. That's because she doesn't want to go to jail for war crimes.

And she's still the House speaker because...?


wp

On edit: typos and other dumb stuff

[defendandprotect]

112. And . . . . covering up the political violence our nation has suffered for decades ???

Coups, assassinations ---
strange accidents ---

Iran Contra -- The October Surprise --- S&L Thefts and Embezzlements ---
Bankrupting our Treasury --- Borrowing from the Social Security Trust Funds ---
Destroying Medicare ---

Using our government agencies to lie to and disinform the public --- CIA, FDA, NASA, IRS ---
lies about inflation, unemployment --- lies about everything.

How much more like Nazi Germany could we be right now with one "illegal" war based on lies
under our belts and Bush scheduled to start another in Iran shortly????

[slipslidingaway]

31. My preferred reason as well K&R n/t

[snot]

39. excellent statement of

more than one lesson that too many have paid too much to learn.

pls keep trying to help us learn them so we can't forget them, without having to re-live every dam' cranny of them any more times than necessary.

thank you.

[crickets]

40. You've got it. Thank you.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

42. K&R.

[G_j]

43. you are right on,

thanks for saying it so well.

[earth mom]

45. The U.S. is HISTORY if Congress does not Impeach * & Co.

But many of us have known this for months, years, haven't we?!

I have to say that I wasn't too shocked when I read today that Obama doesn't want to Impeach * & Co.

No, instead what Obama said was: "Vote the bums out"

WTF?!

:wtf: What a fucking joke!

That Obama doesn't want to Impeach is VERY telling IMO and shrieks of the self serving b.s of most of the people in Congress.

The time is NOW for Obama to stand up and do the right thing.

But of course, DU will defend Obama's words and actions and the rest of the do nothing Congress to the end. :puke:

[TheWatcher]

48. It's almost like the entire country is suffering from Battered Person's Syndrome

Well, not the entire country, because that is too sweeping a generalization. There are actually many layers of this illness we suffer from, but I'll comment on the one's I can see the most.

A lot of people just want all of this to go away, sweep it all under the rug and forget it like a bad dream. Everyone just wants to feel good again, and they just want things to change and everything to go back to the way things were before.

They don't want to deal with it anymore, and just want to wake up from the bad dream.

Furthermore, it's almost like some want their "football team" to win back power so badly, they are willing to dismiss everything that has happened to feel good and feel powerful again. Even if it means looking the other way on what amounts to high treason and war crimes.

What has happened to our country? What in the world is wrong? Why can people not see that it isn't that simple?

If these people are allowed to get away with everything they have done, what does that say about ALL of us? how can we just sit by and let all of these crimes go unpunished, and then have the gall to look the rest of the World in the eye, and say, with a Stepford smile and a giggle "It's OK! We're better now! Everything's going to be OK again! We're back to normal! Erase, Erase!"

I wish this country could wake up to how utterly full of shit we are about to be, and the world of shit we are going to be in if we don't DEMAND and ATTAIN accountability.

[defendandprotect]

114. The levels of corruption in this administration are so high I can't imagine how

any of us are dealing with it ---

There's no time to deal with one bomb being dropped on us when it is followed by three or four
more!!!

It's like cowboys riding in pickup trucks thru town bombing us every day with a new series of
outrages . . .

And none of them ever get properly responded to ---

[WritersBlock]

46. Thank you. K&R. n/t

[liberal N proud]

49. My tinfoil hat theory is...

We or Congress actually has a very large threat of some sort hanging over their heads. Comply or else!

What is that threat? Don't know, I can only imagine what would be so great that so many would simply fall in line without a dissension among them. I don't understand how so many quietly go along without such a threat.
But, we have all heard the reasons you mention

[mod mom]

51. Richard Clark is correct-We must not allow these people back in polite society!

[tomp]

63. richard clarke is incorrect!

this is not about "polite society". we do not want to just deny them chairmanships and honoraria. we want and need to imprison them. frankly i'm not big on the death penalty but i would make an exception here.

the really important part of all this is the education of the people. that is why it is so crucially important to root out the democratic party collaborators (and imo, they are the rule, not the exception). we need to review and rewrite the entire history of the 20th century. we could start the cover up of the 9/11 investigation. if the true story of 9/11 were known the people would storm washington spontaneously, and the world would be changed massively and irrevocably for the better.

"polite society" is the problem.

[mod mom]

65. I believe his poiint was they should not be allowed to go free from justice for their actions. nt

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

66. No, it wasn't. He said they should be censured some way

and not allow them back into polite society. ie University jobs.
"They have to pay", but he never said how.

Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2olnokd_QZw

[defendandprotect]

115. While I think it's worthwhile to take another shot at it ....

I think you may find that the pentration of the "enemy" into the party is so deep and embedded
that we are not going to be able to save the party ---

They're using us in a way as cover ---

We may have to move on --- women, African-Americans, labor --- and whoever else will come ????

[tomp]

64. no patriot sells out to threat.

there is no excuse.

[whistle]

52. You may have something there, make all in Congress tour the torture camps

....meet one-on-one with ALL the families of service men and women who have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, plus visit the severely wounded and disabled Iraq/Afghan war veterans, plus visit Iraqi victims and families who have been affected by this illegal war. Make these congress people observe and listen but remain mute, sock in what they have allowed to happen by their inaction and indifference.

Holy shit!

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. It is not only congress, though that would be a good start

it is also your school teacher that denies any of this is happening

The mailman who happily goes about his or her life denying any of this is happening

The war boosters

The chickenhawks

We, AS A SOCIETY, need a serious dose of perestroika and to learn what has been done in the name of EMPIRE for at least the last thirty years/

Include in that list the families of the many victims of Central American Terror.

Yep, I'd even include the vicitms of the war in indochina

This attitude of I don't care what is going on to others as long as I got mine needs to stop... but for that to happen people need to see WHY things truly happen and realize they are victims, just as much as the ones downrange

And if Empire is what the American people truly want, ok, fine, all steam ahead, but KNOW that Empire also requires people to pay something for it... We have denied we are an Empire, and have been one since 1898

[defendandprotect]

116. These are people now who will find it very easy to deal with this info and then dismiss it ---

I mean . . . think about it . . . they KNOW . . . so if they're not rising up to do something
about it, that's where our problem lies . . .

Not in pulling them out to view what they're unwilling to do anything about on their
own steam --- !!!

[bean fidhleir]

54. Wonderfully said, Nadin.

Perhaps we should, if we get the chance, take a leaf from Smedley Butler's book and require that anyone who votes for or orders military adventurism be automatically stripped enlisted as a Private E1 in the infantry unless over 60, in which case they can be an E1 driving a truck. At the scene of battle, to stay there until the adventurism is over or they are.

[windoe]

55. K & R Agree 100%

Have always suspected coercion, threat, or complicity-really has to be one of the three, can't be ignorance. I think with the trillions "missing" anything is possible. I have literally felt sick since Obama said he was against impeachment.
I want to hear that there will be consequences for these murderers, in the names of ALL who have been victim!

[BrklynLib at work]

57. Thanks so much for this....It is perfect. Absolutely perfect.

[The Wizard]

58. Failing to take action

constitutes failure. Failure by any other name is failure. We failed because millions of us failed to hold our elected leaders accountable. We now have a failed government for our just desserts.
At least the people of the Ukraine had the temerity to be out in the streets in force to protest a rigged election. We have the government we deserve.
This entire Administration needs to be hauled off to the Hague in leg irons and hand cuffs.
As they said after the holocaust "Never again."

[mac2]

62. The people in the streets are unemployed.

They may have been paid to do so. We go to the streets and they won't show it. There they would (our media).

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. I agree, though we have taken to the streets

and the media has failed to show up

Like the impeachment.

And they won't show up until we storm the barricades and perhaps even not then.

[truedelphi]

89. I think the answer lies in part in NOT HAVING THE PROTESTS ON WEEKENDS

One reason the Latino uprising for immigration was successful is that the media workers are at their jobs needing stories on Mondays.

On weekends they are at home. We need to have the major protests on Mondays too. And have them occur close to the Media Offfices, not down at the local park.

[AZ Criminal JD]

100. The immigration marches were successful? What changed?

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. They were held by dark skinned people who dare I say SPOKE

a fireign language.

And I am not shitting you

FEAR... that is why they were covered

[AZ Criminal JD]

130. And nothing changed. No one cared. Not much fear there.

[defendandprotect]

117. "Free Speech has been turned into disorderly conduct . . ."

I think we need a different kind of organization --- thru third parties ---
gather together to organize --

After all the elites/capitalists are organized in every way possible ---!!!!
Just check out their interlinking organizations, from academia to drug companies --- !!!
From one hierarchy to another ---

[ooglymoogly]

59. KR...you speak eloquently for many of us on DU.

[Greyhound]

67. Another K & R in memory of America.

:kick: & R

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

68. Someone posted a thread yesterday about the hearing on torture stopped by the Repugs. Big deal.

All of these hearings mean Absolutely Nothing!!!! They are useless exercises in covering up the complicity of the Dems by holding them. It's like they're saying..Look! We're investigating the crimes of this administration, when all along, they will hold not one person accountable!!!!

Not One Person Who Testified Has Been Held Accountable For Their Illegal Actions. None Of Those Who Have Ignored Subpoenas Have Been Held Accountable.

We are so damned fucked and our country and the future of it is so damned fucked. Do you really think that if Obama becomes President that these aiders and abettors will suddenly honor their oaths of office??? Bullshit. They are either being paid off or are being blackmailed. In either case, their own measly lives are more important to them then our country.

Fuck them.

[The Traveler]

69. Torches and pitchforks

tar and feathers. Commonly available, not so long ago they would have been seized by an outraged populace determined to achieve better representation in the halls of government. We are sedate, now, but stirring and foolish men and women of power and wealth presume the people shall not wake. In this they may be right. But I think and hope they are wrong.

[JDPriestly]

70. Thank you. You are so right.

[Richardo]

71. Sorry, I don't buy into group-guilt and I resent being lectured as to what 'we' are complicit to.

I can speak for myself thank you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. International Law says otherwise, and WE helped to write that

so you may not feel the need to be lectured or feel guilty

See that School Teacher in Germany... there you go

[Richardo]

82. When I get my subpoena to appear at The Hague I'll let you know.

:patriot:

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. You won't but the principles of a moral man in an immoral society

still are in effect, whether you admit it or not

And by silence, we tacitly approve

Most of this country is silent, aka tacitly aproving

[TheWatcher]

123. And while you sit there smarmily with useless witicisms, the Criminals that did this will run free

and clear.

Am I to assume you are just fine with that? Should we all just wait for the magical Election, wipe our brows in relief, everything will be magically swept away, and then we just wait for the new season of American Idol to mesmerize us back into complacency?

Do you really think it's that simple?

And as per the old proverb, when they come for you, should we be there to speak for you, or do you still plan on speaking for yourself?

[Richardo]

125. No.

You're reading a lot into my comments, which are: I do not subscribe to the idea of group guilt, and I resent being lectured about being complicit when I'm not, just because I don't share your particular ideas on how to hold Bush et al accountable. There's a lot of work to do, groundwork to lay, and proceedings and hearings to hold. It's very serious business, and not a process that can be completed by January 20.

Besides, despite all the foaming at the mouth we see here, real-life America is not clamoring for impeachment. Real-life America wants its problems solved: energy costs, health care, jobs, economy, Iraq. Yes, these have all been caused or exacerbated by Administration malfeasance. I agree that there has never been a more deserving bunch of candidates for impeachment. That said, I guarantee that if Congress opened full impeachment proceedings, its ratings would fall to the 2% range. People want shit DONE.

And by the way, IF the House were to vote to impeach, Bush will never, never be convicted by two-thirds of the Senate, I don't care how much you stamp your feet and hold your breath. So after his inevitable acquittal, he gets ride into the sunset claiming he was fully exonerated. That's exactly the opposite of holding him accountable.

And, yes, having the regard I do for the ideals on which this country was founded, I am indeed looking forward with great anticipation to Election Day. I've never missed one, and I never feel more American as when I do when I come out of a polling place.

[cascadiance]

72. We need a South Africa style "Truth Commission"...

Perhaps it will have to happen with a new administration. But if it can be used to help get us a start now on the road to restoring truth and accountability in our government and punishment of those who continue to operate as criminals now, then let it start now!

[defendandprotect]

118. Yes, I love that idea if it can be done . . . BECAUSE . ...

As I said back a way in another post . . . the most successful revolutions are NON-VIOLENT ---

come to think about it, that may be why our own Constitution/Revolution/Bill of Rights isn't holding?

African-Americans delivered themselves to freedom with NON-VIOLENCE
Women are still working on delivery themselves with NON-VIOLENCE
Homosexuals are winning their human rights with NON-VIOLENCE

I'm not looking for blood or executions --- and I'm willing to let these people go to gain the
truth. I think you have to be willing to do that. Finally, the knowledge of these acts of violence
will come to weigh heavily on the heads of those who committed them . . . I trust in that . . .
so I think that is the universe's punishment . . . you judge yourself in the end. Isn't it???

[cascadiance]

122. And it still preserves the ability to punish those whose crimes are too egregious...

But if those testifying are truthful and look to be turning a page to "reform" and join a more truthful and constitutional new government, those judging them would let them off in those instances. I don't just want to be the determination on whether they "told the truth". You'd get someone like Karl Rove standing up and saying "prove I didn't tell you the truth" in his regular assinine way. Those judging him shouldn't be obligated to let him off the hook just because they can't "prove" that he wasn't telling the truth.

[defendandprotect]

126. I'm sure there would be exceptions --- and shirley Rove would qualify . . .

but that's the thing about truth hearings --- lots of people testify so you get all the surround
info -- all of the tesimoney and when someone is lying, the testimony of others makes that clear.

[cascadiance]

127. And I think there are MANY out there that don't say anything out of fear now...

... and just go along to get along without thinking of the consequences of their "following orders" and doing things that help these jerks with their criminal activities. Normally, without so much stealth and knowledge of the domestic spying that's going on, perhaps many more people would be prepared to step forward when they perceive something is wrong. Given that, many of those people would be "freed" with Truth Commissions from being harmed too much when they are as much victims of this administration as others are by being able to tell the truth without as much fear of repercussions.

[defendandprotect]

128. Good point . . .

[The Backlash Cometh]

75. Is there any doubt that strategic Democrats are protecting their campaign donors

and possible complicit, implicit involvements?

[defendandprotect]

119. There's that nasty issue of $$$ and power again . . .

hanging out with the powerful and feeling that protection must be kinda nice --- !! ???

No one asking you to stand up and challenge anyone --- especially not the Constitution!

[Sunnyshine]

79. K&R- Never stop supporting the laws of justice. Thanks for your poignant words nadin. eom

[AntiFascist]

84. Iran/Contra ==> BCCI ===> terrorist funding and nuclear proliferation....

how much of this corruption and foreign influence extends to the Democratic Party? Do our leaders still represent the interests of the United States?

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. I fear the answer is mostly NO

[bleever]

87. #100.

Thank you.

[mdmc]

88. 104

[mirrera]

91. I was lucky, my Grandmother escaped with my mother and uncle and grandfather, she talked.

She spoke all the time, without bitterness, of the ordinary people who were either angelic, or positively power hungry and mean. Most just scurried by. I always wondered HOW! Now I know, the rage and helplessness of seeing the ignorance spread. The balance between speaking out and putting your family in danger. I had relatives in the underground, family friends whose parents threw them from the back of a transport vehicle and told them to run! These stories are in my blood, and my blood runs cold at the terror I see in Nancy Pelosi's eyes. Anyone who does not see her dry lipped fear, is looking and not seeing. She is not capable of handling this situation, she may even be culpable.

Here I sit and listen to the news, even on Nova M, talk of gas and unemployment, and I think BABIES! Not collateral damage. Babies, mothers, fathers, brothers, grandmas and grandpas. Taxi drivers, teachers, nurses and doctors. Dead, for criminal reasons.

Yes Obama must be in the white house, but we must not rest until these criminals are brought to justice. He will keep hearing from us, it can not be like Bill Clinton, "looking forward". These criminals must be completely discredited and jailed.

They have murdered and robbed us blind.

And really, the left has been right about EVERYTHING, why should we not be believed now.

Never shut up. Never...

[defendandprotect]

120. I remember reading "The Rise & Fall of the Third Reich" . . .

I always wondered HOW! Now I know, the rage and helplessness of seeing the ignorance spread. The balance between speaking out and putting your family in danger.

and asking that question "HOW?" . . . people told me that if I could understand that,
understand Hitler, then I too would be crazy.
But there were answers, I've discovered over the decades.
Not all of the answers, but enough to feel I understand better.

I still hold the German people responsible . . . and yet I don't . . .
because I've come to understand exactly what you've expressed above.
And only in a very minor way for we are no way here threatened as the German people
were threatened, caught in a trap, threatened with violence.

I also look to governments --- religious leaders --- and find their guilt.
They had the more widespread influence; they paved the way with anti-Semitic hatreds/teachings.

While Nuremberg was great in the laws it left behind --- which we sadly seem to be
dismissing .... that was about a handful of Nazi leaders ... very few were brought to justice.

And, shockingly, after WWII, we did nothing to help track down Nazis, as they moved thru
rat holes into new lives in other countries. Evidently, that was part of an agreement between
Nelson Rockefeller and those seeking the nation of Israel.

Much of this is revisitng us now ---

People here are now very frightened --


PS: For those who may not know, in fact, our CIA-Allen Dulles brought many NAZIS into the US
and put them in high level positions --- setting up our CIA, and working in the FBI and in
parts of government --- including Werner Von Braun heading up NAZA ---
This was OPERATION PAPERCLIP for anyone interested in looking at it ---

[Uncle Joe]

92. Damn good post nadinbrezinski!

Kicked and recommended.:thumbsup:

[Cleita]

93. I've got mine glued on tight.

:tinfoilhat: for the reasons you state above.

[mckara]

94. I Spoke the Truth... And Now, I Have Fewer Friends!

But, who cares? It was the right thing to do! :patriot:

The worthless bastards! :rofl:

[vinylsolution]

95. I agree, except for point 5.....

... which should read: "We need a Progressive in power."

[LaStrega]

96. You speak the truth ... k/r n/t

[MissDeeds]

97. You nailed it

I am beyond appalled and amazed; I am ashamed of our leaders who have cowered before this evil, despotic regime. This has taken a toll on my belief system that will never be repaired. Each and every one who had the power to stop this and did nothing is complicit and share in the crimes committed on their watch.

[rhett o rick]

98. Our congress-critters are way to comfortable in their jobs. They don't want to do the right

thing if there is a chance it mite cost them their jobs. Shame on them. Shame on Nancy and Harry.

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. But how many challengers even got close? Mine got to barely

10%... why they are so secure....

And the only way they will get it is either loosing their jobs, or having elections so close that they MIGHT wake up

[rhett o rick]

129. This is a huge problem with our system. Our Demcratic congress peoples can not be unseated.

Incumbency actually guarantees them reelection thru the primaries. The Lieberman case is the exception that proves the rule. And even he, a republican got Democratic support over Lamont the true Democrat. I know of no other case where an incumbent Democrat was defeated in the primaries.

In Washington the State, when Sen Cantwell last ran for the Senate she had an anti-war challenger. He was polling in the low numbers but his anti-war stance was embarrassing to her because she was one of the turncoat Democrats that were complicit in the invasion of Iraq and deaths of over a million so far. Her challenger dropped out to go to work for her.

[defendandprotect]

101. Tin Foil Hats or Dunce Caps . . . I'm not sure which is more appropo . .. ????

Well, the Democrats have been in power thru '07 and six months of '08 ....
and I would think that would have been long enough to stop this war which is now going on 5 years!

I'm sure we have all called and asked them to stop funding the war ---
I'm sure many of us have called asking for impeachment ---
I'm sure many of us have called on many of the issues ---

One of the most aggravating things, for me, is having watched long, long ago the US Senate
being turned over to Sen. Bob Dole by Sen. George Mitchell and fully understanding how well
this kind of thing can be hidden. We hear over and again from Reid and Pelosi that though
we are in the majority we don't have the power. YET, HOW IS IT THAT WHETHER IN THE MAJORITY
OR THE MINORITY ... AS THEY HAVE BEEN FREQUENTLY . . . THE REPUGS CAN STOP ALL LEGISLATION!!!

We have to think third parties, friends ---
The Democratic Party cannot become a religion which blinds us to reality ----

FIRST, work on trying to rid this party of the right wing influences over it ---
and many of those among us here are supporting those right-wing influences.

If you're not familiar with what I'm talking about . . . please find out what has been
going on in the co-opting of the Democratic Party and its ideals for decades!

[Spiffarino]

102. With all the primary infighting going on...

...I'd forgotten how awesome you are. Thanks for the reminder.

:D

[nadinbrzezinski]

108. :blushes:

[TheWatcher]

124. Awesome is too understated a word for her, this thread, and what the point of the original post

means to all of us, and the future for this country.

[sazemisery]

104. Thank you. K&R n/t

[Old and In the Way]

113. Just let it go....

and we can watch them reconstitute again, 10 years from now, worse and more corrupt, for our lack of diligence today.

[defendandprotect]

121. Push and Recommend ----