all you anti-impeachment types...

[leftofthedial]

You and your Congressional "democrat" friends who oppose impeachment and believe it would be "politically divisive" to hold the bush cabal accountable for their crimes are playing right into repuke hands.

I have heard one argument over and over and over from repukes when I place blame for ruinous repuke policies. "Both parties are to blame," they say. All of them. None of them like bush either, but they don't blame repukes for the "war," or the lies, or the torture or the damage that has been done to the economy. "Democrats have done nothing to stop the Republicans. Both parties are at fault. You can't blame Republicans for (crappy schools, dead and maimed soldiers, lost jobs, foreclosures, poisonous food, deadly products, sky-high trade deficits, recession/depression, what have you). It took both parties to create this problem," is their firm belief.

When I see the utter failure of the "Democrats" in Congress, both as an opposition party and as the majority party, I can't say I fundamentally disagree with the point that "democrats" are part of the problem.

By turning a blind eye to bush crimes, Pelosi et al strongly reinforce the perception that both parties are corrupt and are "in it together." This thwarts hope for change and creates ever more corrosive apathy. Worse, it allows the 20% - 30% repuke party faithful idiots to continue believing (and voting as though) their utterly failed principles and policies have intrinsic merit (cut taxes, shrink government, deregulate, privatize).

[dana_b]

1. good argument.

their semi-right. The Repubs ARE responsible for starting all that aforementioned shit, but our congress people are complicit when they do nothing about it.

[flvegan]

2. This has potential.

:popcorn:

[VP505]

3. This is a scary thought!

"Worse, it allows the 20% - 30% repuke party faithful idiots to continue believing (and voting as though) their utterly failed principles and policies have intrinsic merit (cut taxes, shrink government, deregulate, privatize).

[Bob Dobbs]

4. Good insight.

And that is the problem. Once we start turning over the rocks to find the vermin, some of them will be Democrats, but should also be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, no matter the political consequences.

[Wizard777]

12. No Mountain shall conceal them. No Ocean shall cover them.

[MonkeyFunk]

5. Tell Dean, Obama, Feingold

and the overwhelming majority of other national democrats who agree that impeachment would be a waste of time.

[leftofthedial]

8. what makes them right?

the overwhelming political success of their Democratic party over the last 30 years?

[PeaceNikki]

41. I'll speak on Feingold since I voted for him

He is a champion of civil rights, the sole vote against the US PATRIOT Act, a strong advocate against the war and has had nothing but a record as a progressive leader. What makes him right is his virtue AND experience. I respect the virtue of wanting to proceed but trust the experience of Russ Feingold.

[leftofthedial]

43. he's a good guy it seems, in terms of his personal votes

but why is he the guru for the strategy of the party?

[MadMaddie]

6. I was listening to Randi and she said something very

important, something I didn't think about...

Guess who was briefed on the torture methods, the secret prisons and other criminal efforts? Nancy Pelosi, Phill Graham...and other Rep and Dem leaders on the Committed that gets briefed.

No this is about these politicians saving their own asses....that's why they won't pursue impeachment...because * will spill the beans in a heartbeat...he will say they knew exactly what was going on and they did nothing.

When Obama gets in Pelosi and Reid must be replaced.

[sellitman]

42. *Ding* Ding**Ding* Ding*Ding* Ding*

I've lost my flavor for Randi but this is Spot on.

Walt Kelly's Pogo Cartoon said it best:

[corkhead]

7. spot on. Pure repukes are eager to spread the blame, It is hard to argue with them

the majority requires 60 votes in the senate doesn't hold water because the republicons didn't need 60 votes to push their agenda through, even when the potus was a Democrat. I am sick of hearing that shit.

[leftofthedial]

11. bingo

[reprehensor]

9. Amen.

Let Kucinich rock the house.

[mzmolly]

10. I don't think we have to choose impeachment now as the only method of

holding Bush accountable. We can impeach, say, after the election.

[leftofthedial]

16. do you really believe there is an iota of chance that would happen?

I don't.

Even assuming the repukes don't steal another one, after the "election," there will a "new agenda to implement." We will need to "move the country forward."

No one will EVER be held accountable (at least not in the US).

And, I am ashamed to the core to admit, it is 100% unequivocally the fault of the Democrats, who, with a scant handful of exceptions, have betrayed their country, their Constitution, their party and us. The ball is in their court right now and will be until November. After that it's a whole new game. Same old "rules," same old players, but a new clock and a new scoreboard.

[mzmolly]

23. Yes

I do.

As for November, I HOPE it's a whole new ballgame.

[leftofthedial]

34. One of the things the "democrats" haven't done is to ensure that elections are legit

so November, which should be a Democratic landslide of historic proportions, will continue to be in doubt.


No offense, but belief that Obama and congressional "democrats" (assuming they win) will do anything to hold the neocons accountable for their crimes is just plain silly. That didn't happen for Watergate. It didn't happen for the S&L debacle. It didn't happen for Iran Contra. It *never* happens. I just hope the "real agenda" Obama and the "democrats" pursue after January 2009 is more real than the phantom "real agenda" Pelosi and Reid et al used as an excuse to not do anything of substance for the last two years. I also hope the new "real agenda," whatever it turns out to be, is not too harmful. It will likely be very pro-corporate, very pro-free-trade, extremely gradual in dealing with the illegal occupation of Iraq and too little too late to save our economy from a long struggle. I see the Jimmy Carter perfect storm all over again, but without any pretense at populism and with an unabashed embrace of corporatism. And that's the *good* possible outcome. Nowhere do I see the slightest chance of any significant investigation of the past eight years, much less any pursuit of actual justice.

[mzmolly]

35. We've done much to protect our elections in various states around the US.

Edited to add link -

http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oId=18049

I don't share much of cynicism here.

I see "victory" all around us.

Progress happens in stages, and while we step backward (mainly when Republicans are in office) I think we have to appreciate the steps forward, over time, as difficult as that is.

We just had a competition between an African American man and a Woman for the nomination. Women couldn't even vote when my great grandmother was born. A distant uncle of mine, fought in the Civil War to help "free the slaves".

As for me, I'm excited about the coming election and the prospect of a President Obama. I am hopeful that justice in some form, will be served.

I appreciate the calls for impeachment, I support the impeachment of BOTH Bush and Cheney, I understand them. But, I also understand that good, intelligent progressives can and do disagree on this issue.

[pacalo]

29. Impeachment MUST be done while they are in office. Impeachment of one president during another's

term is unprecedented & I can just hear them now, into the next term: "We don't have time for impeachment; that is old news. We're concerned about moving forward."

This nation won't heal until these thugs are punished.

[elocs]

13. Well, we "anti-impeachment" types realize that there is only one point of view allowed here about it

and it's not ours. We also realize we cannot possibly be real Democrats and not favor impeachment. Also, we realize that we must hate the Constitution of the United States even if we were not aware that we hated it. We also realize that impeachment was at hysteria levels here last summer and guess what? It went away. This too shall pass (unlike impeachment) although I am sure there will be a get deal of righteous indignation, shaking of fists, and threats not to support Democrats or to leave the party altogether.

Don't confuse this with the notion that I do not think Bush not only richly deserves to be impeached, but also convicted. I just don't see it happening, especially in an election year. If impeachment somehow came up for a vote and passed, it would surely fail to get a conviction in the Senate and then the Republicans would make political hay out of it, maybe even defeating some Democrats or holding some seats that would have been lost. But I am sure that many would be smugly satisfied nevertheless.

In combat, just because you are able to attack or even have a superior force, does not mean that it is smart to attack regardless of how many are screaming for blood. Just because many are screaming for impeachment blood does not make it the smart thing to do.

Now, stay tuned for the lectures about how I must hate the Constitution and how I want to see Bush get away with everything (in history the bad guys often get away with it no matter what you do--that's just reality).

[leftofthedial]

17. well at least you realize it.

[chknltl]

22. Not buying it! Not buying a repuke gain from this.

You say: "If impeachment somehow came up for a vote and passed, it would surely fail to get a conviction in the Senate and then the Republicans would make political hay out of it, maybe even defeating some Democrats or holding some seats that would have been lost." I have heard this from others and I just ain't buying into this one. First off the repukes are running against the "Do Nothin' Congress" already...well this is 'somethin' and it has the backing of the majority of the electorate! (If they only knew what we DUers have known for months and years-Oh how that majority would grow into an angry monster!)

If this gets out of the Judiciary and back to the House, (although I doubt it will get back there), it will have been stamped: "Yep we agree-there be some strong potential for impeachable crimes committed here!" The media will at that point go ballistic with this! As a news item it will be somewhere between Hurricane Katrina and 9-11! (Well at least bigger than that Rev. Wright thingy!) With the electorate debating their fave articles of impeachment the Senate will be hard pressed to shut this down, ESPECIALLY because it is in an election year! Those who vote against the articles of impeachment will have to pony up their evidence exonerating bush and co... perhaps an impossible task.

So those who vote against this in the Senate will find it hard to keep their jobs when their term is over....We are deep into a 'throw the bums out' cycle as it is, how many of these repukes do you suppose are going to want to remain on the Titanic? That is how I see the political hay shaking out. In my mind, it would be GREAT if it gets defeated in the Senate...this means it actually MADE IT to the Senate and into mainstream news where it will without question turn into a bad day indeed for the repuke enablers!

[Dukkha]

39. so does law enforcement let serial killers free because it's not 'smart' to arrest them

and trial them for their crimes as they are required to do?
Why do you hate the constitution?

[Recursion]

14. Would it get the troops home? Lower gas prices? Prevent an attack on Iran?

Create jobs? Give people health care?

[leftofthedial]

18. neither would anything else any of them are doing.

Obama won't end the occupation of Iraq. His "health care" plan will reward insurance companies for their failure to-date. He has no stated plan that will have the slightest effect on gas prices. The attack on Iran, if it happens, will happen before November.

The current Congress certainly is doing nothing to achieve any of those objectives.

Your rhetorical questions would have some substance if there was any substantial effort afoot to address any of them.

[Telly Savalas]

21. No.

But "truth to power" is more important than getting shit done.

[mzmolly]

24. No, no, no

no and no.

[chknltl]

27. Maybe. NO. Quite likely, No No.

It won't make you a ham sandwich either BUT:
It will be a strong deterrence for a future wannabe bush from taking over the Presidency. Think about it: How lucky have we been so far that this mad war-monger hasn't shut down our democracy entirely...he could do just that ya know...so could a future president-dictator. Currently we have the greatest military muscle this planet has ever seen and the largest nuclear arsenal this planet has ever seen- WHAT IS STOPPING BUSH OR A FUTURE BUSH FROM USING THIS POWER AGAINST THE WISHES OF THE ELECTORATE????

Impeachment is what stands between the whims of bush and the common needs of the electorate. You asked if this could prevent a war with Iran. Well this madman might try to open a war with Iran in the face of a congress which has been cowed by him and his evil empire OR he could spend his time in office fighting off an empowered congress seeking to put him out of office and perhaps behind bars!

Put yourself in the shoes of a young person who has been born in Tehran. Tell me, what would you be down on your knees praying to Allah that the American Congress do right now? Basically, the thinking population of this planet knows that bush is a war criminal! If we were some third world nation, this matter would have been resolved for us long ago. Sadly we are a great military power and the world is holding it's breath hoping that bush gets removed from that power by the very Democracy he presides over or somehow this war-monger/greed monger doesn't do too much more damage.

This maniac needs to be stopped, his toys removed and he and his minions need to be tried for war-crimes. At the very least We The People need to find a way to prevent this sort of nightmare from ever happening again. If we intend to be the last remaining superpower AND a Democracy, we need to be responsible for the actions of our government! I don't know about you but I don't want to be one of the citizens of a broken USA who is forced to walk through Gitmo to see what crimes OUR government did IN OUR NAME....I don't want to be forced over to the Middle East to remove the depleted uranium oxide bio-hazard because OUR GOVERNMENT sanctioned it OK to use those hundred if not thousands of tons of depleted uranium WMD. Should an angry world turn against us, both economically and/or militarily, this could indeed be our fate. See, impeachment just got a lot easier didn't it.

[leftofthedial]

32. ...

:thumbsup:

[rosesaylavee]

15. K & R

Hold them accountable. Now or after they leave office. Just hold them accountable for their crimes.

[lovuian]

19. here here leftof the dial

these are not excuses this is looking like a One Party Corruption and Collusion going on here

[Individualist]

20. They're deliberately playing right into repuke hands.

"The Democratic Leadership Council's agenda is indistinguishable from the Republican Neoconservative agenda," Dennis Kucinich

[Psyop Samurai]

25. Yep... In the 2006 election, I lobbied friends on the importance of voting...

...stressing the importance of taking back the House, which would place John Conyers as the Judiciary chair, and he was the man with the goods.

Now what do I tell them?

[Killy]

28. I agree.

I know, I did the same thing.

What do I tell them now? How do I try and sell Obama and the rest without it being pointed out to me that the Democratic "leadership" has been ineffective and possibly in collusion?

What am I supposed to say? "Impotent is better than evil"?

[Psyop Samurai]

33. Welcome to DU, Killy...

:toast:

Fortunately, I believe we have a candidate who will sell himself, plus presidential elections are more high profile and attract more voters.

But yeah... "Impotent is better than evil"... now there's a slogan!

Plus, when this "Obama" character first showed up, I wasn't having any parts of it. "Reach across the aisle" indeed. Now I'm like, "never mind what I said..., you have to vote for Obama!"

It gets really tiresome translating upside-down world into real-world. I'm not a game player to begin with, and have no taste for politics.

edit to add:

Most people, many quite intelligent, are still acting on beliefs and folk wisdom, not facts and information. I have a good friend who is aware of the astounding level of corruption, who believes we need McCain because we have to hit bottom. There are a number of fallacies behind that, but there is a logic to it. This is the type of thing we are up against.

[pacalo]

26. Well said! Even if the Democrats don't have the numbers, we expect them to stand up on principle.

And you've explained so well why that is so important.

This may be a political strategy game for some, but for many more of us, it has everything to do with the preservation of the country we love so much.

[frogmarch]

30. K&R with gusto!

Great post! :thumbsup:

[bbgrunt]

31. well, their refusal to hold impeachment hearings can

ONLY mean that they are part of the problem.

[Swamp Rat]

36. k&r

[On the Road]

37. Impeaching Now is Certainly the Most Democratic Course of Action

the party is a master at being a day late and a dollar short, and snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

[JuniperLea]

38. Nixon had 3 articles of impeachment... Bush has 35...

It's the right thing to do.

[bonito]

40. Kick n/t