Economics Questions for GD: 1) Is Economics a dirty word to you?

[bicentennial_baby]

You know what I mean. :)

2) Where do you stand on taxation?

3) Globalization?

4) What's the ideal Economic system, in your opinion?

5) If you could "fix" one thing in the U.S. Economic system, what would it be?

This is inspired by some somewhat "non-progressive" Economic opinions I've seen around here lately. Thought it might be a good discussion. :D

Disclaimer: Radical Econ person here. Not quite a Commie. ;)

[LSK]

1. ok

Having listened and Read a lot of Thom Hartmann and Paul Krugman

1. No

2. We need to bring back trade tariffs and end this free market BS. The taxes on the top percent should be raised dramatically. Kill all the Bush tax cuts.

3. We need to rework most trade agreements using trade tariffs and with proper labor and environmental enforcement. We will not become isolated because we are still a huge global market and the world is interconnected.

4. Well regulated capitalism with some industries socialized. See Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, the Netherlands. Markets should decide what type of food you eat and what clothes you buy but should not control the healthcare you recieve.

5. Raise taxes on the rich or bring back trade tariffs.

[bicentennial_baby]

4. Can we really turn the clock back on globalization,

aka via tariffs and abolishment of the "free market"?

I guess I don't get the "end this free market BS", specifically. How do you end it? It's endemic.

Otherwise, I agree with you.

*not that I advocate keeping the free market, I'm just attempting to be realistic, I guess*

[LSK]

7. if you want to sell something in America, we will tax you

If product X costs $10 in America to be produced, but costs $1 in China to make, well how about a $9 tax on it to even things out? The Corporation selling the products might think twice about closing the plant in America if this tax is in place because what is the point? They will just keep the plant here. This is a simplistic example but you get the idea of how tariffs can be used to protect jobs here.

Unfortunately they have been eliminating these tariffs for quite a while now.

Also how much of the manufacturing is gone already where if we imposed this, what would happen? We would have to impose tariffs slowly as Corporations would need time to bring back factories here.

With free markets, we are eliminating these tariffs and therefore all the factories are moving to where the cheap labor is.

I suggest to you Thom Hartmann's Screwed.

[hfojvt]

8. I have read screwed and loved it

but still, it depends on the product. I happen to have bought 3 Trek bicycles. Trek is a Wisconsin company, but being in the bottom quintile I cannot afford an American made Trek. The first I bought in 1990 for $300 was made in Korea. The next one I bought in 2003 for $300 was made in China. It was so much faster and smoother than the one I had been riding that I decided from now on I would buy a new one every five years. But I got a jump on that, anticipating a price increase and bought one on sale for $300.

If you tarrif that to the price of an American made bicycle though, it would jump to $900 or $1200 or more. I could see a $100 tarrif, but even that is a regressive tax. It's gonna be paid by working class people who will find that their $8 and $10 an hour jobs do not buy nearly as much.

[LSK]

9. yes except when the factories come back those jobs pay $18 or $20 per hour

I do see your point on not having a huge tariff immediately but we need to start somewhere and the right wingers are in love with no tariffs for some reason.

[hfojvt]

18. I am not sure about that

because I have worked in a satellite dish factory making $5.40 an hour and another one making $7 an hour on a piece rate and also at a pudding factory making $7.25 an hour and $8.5 an hour as a temp. Temp jobs paid less, but that factory topped out at $17 an hour. I guess with more factories, competition for workers would go up, pushing wages higher, but I think prices would go up faster.

[bicentennial_baby]

11. That is the problem with tariffs, at least historically

They can end up hurting people domestically, when taken to extremes. And "infant industries", which tariffs were originally protecting, no longer really exist. Tariffs have their upsides, and their downsides.

[JDPriestly]

17. Value Added tax on everything. This is how Europe funds a lot of its social programs.

The value added tax in Europe is very often extremely high. It is not specifically anti-free-trade. It taxes everything equally. But, obviously if you have a situation like ours in which virtually everything you buy is made in China, Philippines, Guatemala, etc., the VAT as it is called has the effect of a tax on imports.

Hey. It should not replace an income tax, but be in addition to an income tax and be federal. The income tax should be lowered to compensate for the VAT.

That is how Europe encourages saving also.

[speedoo]

2. my answers..

1. not at all.
2. Normally I prefer a progressive income tax structure. These days, we need an even more progressive structure. For starters, we need to go back to pre-Bush structure, Then we need to add additional taxes on the wealthy to pay for Iraq, which is fair in most cases because the wealthy have profited from the Iraq War (gee what a coincidence!). Longer term, severe tax simplification is needed.
3. Only problem with it is the loss of jobs in the US.
4. Capitalism, without the excesses and corruption that Bushco/Rethugs have promoted to exacerbate the unfair distribution of wealth.
5. Fix the tax problem, see #2. Then fix the problems referred to in #4.

[bicentennial_baby]

6. Re: #3

I agree that that is 1 of the major problems with it, but...How do we bring jobs back? revitalize the industrial sector? Other? Strengthen unions?

:)

[speedoo]

10. I confess that I have not given it a lot of thought.

But I think revitalizing the industrial sector could be the best way. Seems like moving jobs overseas is so much easier in the other sectors. But how to revitalize the industrial sector in view of labor cost advantages overseas...? Maybe increased energy costs would actually help, by driving distribution costs up for foreign products. What an irony.

I am very pro-union, but I don't see how strengthening them will help much in bringing jobs back. Horse has already left the barn, ya know?

Are you majoring in econ?

[bicentennial_baby]

12. Yes!

I'm going into my 5th yr (4 yr coursework done!), staying in to do my Honors thesis and some other Econ courses before Grad school.

I agree abt. the industrial sector, but in honesty, I don't see that happening, for various reasons. Possibly, if foreign producers are hampered by energy costs (as we all may be, soon), that could help. I just don't see the initiative on the part of the capitalist leaders to reinvigorate the industrial sector.

I do think that strengthening unions will lend greater power to workers' voices and influence, in the long run. If we don't reverse the severe downturn of union membership, they may disappear altogether, and we don't want that.

:)

[provis99]

3. Studied Economics in college

Where do I stand?

2) raise the taxes on the rich (millionaires at least). Tax the crap out of those slugs, and distribute the wealth in the form of negative income taxes to everyone else. This will lead to an acceleration in the velocity of money, and generate spending and investment.

3) Free trade sucks, as it is a euphemism for the free mobility of capital, ONLY. Fair trade means worker pay and rights are guaranteed across the globe, greater freedom on the mobility of labor, and increasing standards of living for workers. I support fair trade, not free trade.

4) A system wherein government corporations are established to compete with, not supplant, private corporations. This will prevent price fixing and monopolization, as well as encourage innovation and economic development. Why not have a government oil company that competes with Exxon, for example?

5) single payer health care, on the Canadian model. This will do more to raise the standard of living in this country for the poor and middle class than virtually any other single government initiative.

[bicentennial_baby]

5. I like your answers...

While I don't believe that the U.S. will ever nationalize certain industries in any way, I do believe that certain targeted ind. could be beneficial for the majority.

Fair trade, yes! :)

I'm not sure about negative income taxes, but at least minimal for the poor/poorest among us. Maybe you can convince me otherwise.

:)

[hfojvt]

13. we already have some of the negative income tax with the EIC

but it's not very generous to people who have no kids. Then again, neither is any other part of the safety net. Couples with two children are already tax free up to about $39,000 whereas single people start paying taxes at about $10,000, which is below the poverty line. I only avoided Federal income taxes by putting $500 in my IRA which is an option for higher income people too, but still paid some state income taxes, which are much less progressive and start at income of $5,250.

[bicentennial_baby]

14. That is a good point...

Hehe, we're in that childless & screwed on the EIC group. We always get slammed on State taxes, even with max. deductions. And we're not wealthy, by a long shot.

:)

[JackRiddler]

15. Answers...

1) Is Economics a dirty word to you?
You know what I mean.

Assuming I do: Yes. Political economy is a better term.



2) Where do you stand on taxation?

Nationalize banks, energy and defense sector, end the military-industrial complex (call a world summit to reduce all military spending and end the war trade), then figure out taxation.

No fed income payroll tax until $150,000, go to 50 percent flat-rate no-deduction after that. Stop penalizing people for working, start making them pay real prices for what they consume: Shift the shortfall to variable consumption taxes and energy charges based on ecological and social damage entailed in the production and consumption of given products (and their actual necessity; no VAT on food, for example).

Otherwise, northern Europe compared to US obviously has a much higher standard of living and individual security, coupled with economic dynamism. What's wrong with social democracy? A rational welfare state would take care of those who are still at the bottom under the above scheme.



3) Globalization?

A meaningless term. Started in 1492. It's all about the how: Food first for all regions, then worry about export crops.



4) What's the ideal Economic system, in your opinion?

Something collaboratively and rationally planned (not top-down or command) on a utilitarian, set of values emphasizing regional self-sufficiency and quality of life; we will be working this out within 400 years... barring the high probability of civilizational collapse.

It will be called Riddlerism. ;)



5) If you could "fix" one thing in the U.S. Economic system, what would it be?

If it were ONE thing, I suppose I would have to pick a or b from the following list, but four related things are equally required:

a) an end to war as an industry for profit and a cut in the "defense" budget by something like 80 percent. (NOTE: Long as I get to fantasize, half of that should go into reworking the energy economy, both in supply (developing renewables) and demand (efficiency, cutting waste, changing the transportation system). The other half I'd put into hiring teachers and raising their salaries.)

b) If it's going to spend on a deficit, then the government should issue its own damn money rather than borrow it at interest and pay the interest for the next 88 generations (a board of half-elected, half-appointed economists should set the limit on the deficit based on rational considerations such as the economic benefits of investment in infrastructure, etc.).

Or nationalize the friggin' banks.

c) Decriminalize drugs, putting an end to the illegal drug economy and the prison-industrial complex, two of the most corrupting influences on everything else alongside war.

d) Remove money from democratic process, the rest will follow: Public campaign finance; free media time to parties as a condition of media licensing; ban on lobbies (or some form of equal-access system). Proportional representation, while we're at it. Achieving real democracy (still representative, but more direct and above all more genuine) will within a generation put an end to the revolving-door, contractor-government-complex systems of payola and corruption that waste so much and keep so many resources trapped in maintaining an unsustainable status quo.

Insanely enough, I would actually increase Congressional pay and pensions, which would be an enormously popular move - ;) -- and put extreme restrictions on all other economic activities they are allowed to do. In my utopian fantasy -- which is a fantasy so don't make fun of it -- after losing an election they would continue drawing the same salary for a couple of years, during which time they would be required not to take any other job.

[JDPriestly]

16. I love economics but don't have all the answers.