Kucinich asks how will it look if a nation prosecutes Bushco for war crimes & we didn't hold hearing

[antigop]

BUZZFLASH interview with Kucinich

http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/alerts/362

However, Kucinich said that the effort is not only about Constitutional law and his personal feelings. He wants to demonstrate to future U.S. presidents and the international community that this sort of behavior will not be tolerated by Congress.

These are not just symbolic concerns; Kucinich raised the specter of international involvement:

"How awful it would be if the Congress looks the other way and within the next few years some nation decides to prosecute a member of the Bush Administration for war crimes at a time when we clearly knew that there was sufficient evidence to proceed with hearings?"

[wtmusic]

1. The "specter" of international involvement?

I'll call it "promise".

[spanone]

2. k&r

[BurtWorm]

3. Look to whom?

Why should what other people think matter? Why can't we find some genuine way of dealing with this mess? Why does it have to wind up being yet another gaseous American spectacle? Why can't this country get real about anything anymore?

[Fire Walk With Me]

5. America will no longer be taken seriously, especially for any moral stances.

BushCo have purposely ruined America's social standing.

Makes it easier to do internal damage, if no one else cares what's going on, inside America. BushCo are the human equivalent of flesh-eating bacteria.

[BurtWorm]

6. There is no good reason anymore to take America seriously.

Why would impeachment change that? We've become a laughing stock to the world--not just our Republicans and conservatives and neo-cons. The whole nation is a laughing stock. Why shouldn't the world laugh at us. What have we given the world lately that isn't a manifestly cheap piece of shit?

[Fire Walk With Me]

8. Impeachment and prosecution is our only path back to being free.

Being taken seriously by others is a byproduct of doing the right thing.

Sadly, we cannot even do the right thing.

[BurtWorm]

9. I don't believe that. There is no simple solution to the very deep shit this country has gotten

itself into.

[Fire Walk With Me]

10. Impeachment and prosecution is a better first step than any other I've seen bandied about.

:shrug:

[BurtWorm]

11. It isn't going to happen. They've made it abundantly clear.

We do need something cathartic to put the full stop to this awful, awful era. It won't be impeachment, but we do need something.

[Fire Walk With Me]

12. We must never, ever give up. Any amount of giving up is a victory for Republicans

who themselves have vowed to never give up, until they are the only ones left.

They're doing a far better job of this than we are. Kucinich's promise to return with 60 articles is correct. David and Goliath. Remember who won?

The alternative:

"Republican Karl Rove and other commentators had speculated about a permanent political realignment in favor of the GOP along the lines of the presidential election of 1896, in which Mark Hanna helped William McKinley construct a Republican majority that lasted for the next 36 years."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GOP

I know that you're simply playing devil's advocate, but please get on board for freedom. It is imperative that =all= of us do, or the conditions we currently detect, shall easily become far worse.

[BurtWorm]

17. If Obama is elected and Bush is not impeached,

will Obama make it worse because Bush is not impeached?

[Fire Walk With Me]

22. Still devil's advocate, huhn?

Okay- If Bush and friends are still walking around, they and their OPEC friends will continue to manipulate the price of oil etc. in order to weaken Obama, the same way the energy mavens did to Gray Davis and Jimmy Carter. Look what happened to them...and look what the republicans gained, and continue to gain, using the same manipulations.

They'll do it again, and no Democratic President would be immune. Period. Having a Democratic President is not a magic wand, a get-out-of-jail-free card.

They'll invade Iran. They'll continue to destroy America so that they can control it utterly (poisoning the well). They are highly successful and they will win if we do not stop them every single step of the way, every single law, every single inch. Kucinich likely understands that if impeached, they'll throw dirty tricks at us, that will make us look bad and vulnerable. It's a given. They'll do it if we win. That's all they do. If they were reduced to competing solely in the political arena, they'd lose, and they've tried it (Reagan era wasn't entirely successful when allowing citizens to actually vote on their ideas). We have to understand that they WILL take everything and treat us like disposables if we allow them to.

And we're allowing them to.

Things are far more fucked than most care to admit. We must admit that we are dealing with genuine sadists, who enjoyed the destruction of 9/11, Katrina, Iraq, torture, rendition, illegal wiretapping, monopolizing oil and using our tax dollars to create their profit monopoly...and stop them completely. And that a fight is exactly what they are dying to have.

How are you today?

[BurtWorm]

26. "Having a Democratic President is not a magic wand, a get-out-of-jail-free card."

And impeachment is?

:popcorn:

[chknltl]

28. I didn't see where anyone said it was a "Get out of jail free" card but..

America has the greatest military this planet has ever seen. It also has a nuclear arsenal that could wipe out life on this planet for millennium. You know it, I know it, the world knows it. The LAST thing this planet needs is a maniac in charge of this power. Supposedly we are a representative, Constitutionally limited democracy. Bush and co have done what they can to remove the Constitutionally limited part, as well as the democracy part. Impeachment is still part of our Constitution regardless that the nay-sayers would prefer to ignore this fact. It is a tool which our forefathers placed there to stop, (among other things), an out of control Presidency.

What would the world prefer: Bush holding on to this awesome power of destruction or not? Would the world feel a bit better if our Constitutionally limited democracy protected them from bush, a future bush or even worse a future Hitler? This then is the message that needs sending: "We The People understand that we have an awesome responsibility to this planet and we promise to be better stewards of our power as long as we have it." "Furthermore we shall use the powers of our Constitution to PREVENT some maniac from causing the citizens of our planet to come to unwarranted grief."

Bush abrogated that message when he invaded Iraq. He told the world that a POTUS can do whatever he or she pleases. It is time for We The People to show the world that this is not the case, nor shall it ever be the case. If we don't, that same world will find SOME way to remove this responsibility away from us...children should not be allowed to play with matches...especially when those matches risk wiping out ALL life....

In a sense it may very well be a Get Out Of Jail Free card, actually better than that, it's a "We The People have the power to stop holding the world hostage!" card.... and more importantly it shows the world that we are not afraid to use that card when necessary. That is what IMPEACHMENT will do.

I know this is a bit longish but a final thought: How would things have played out differently for Germany had her citizens found a way to remove Hitler and his gang shortly before or after he invaded Austria? We may indeed be currently in a similar position. Perhaps impeachment could better be likened to a "Prevent Another Holocaust" card.

(edited out an extra word mistake)

[Prophet 451]

13. "What have we given the world lately that isn't a manifestly cheap piece of shit?"

I'm a European (British, to be exact) and I can think of at least one: Jimmy Carter, we adore Jimmy Carter.

For the rest, I'm afraid we don't have a lot of respect left for your country but impeachment would be a way to start earning it back. It would say to the world "We fucked up but we tried to make amends".

[BurtWorm]

15. What about our electing Obama?

Would that do anything for you? ;-)

[Prophet 451]

18. Oh yeah

To be honest, over here, we're dubious about whether the US has become blind enough to race to elect a black man. We like Obama here, his policies make him a fairly moderate politician here.

[BurtWorm]

21. Believe me. we're dubious about that as well.

Time will tell.

[Cleita]

4. Exactly!

I was going through the International Court of Justice at the Hague website and there is an action by Mexico against the USA on behalf of Mexican nationals who were denied their rights under international law by our country. How long before other nations file complaints on behalf of their nationals who have been denied rights under international law by the USA? I do believe that Iraqis who have gone into exile could possibly form a government in absentia to replace the puppet government BushCo has set up there. If the international community recognizes them they could file grievances against us. Also, a criminal court has been established at the Hague established in 2002 as a permanent tribunal to prosecute individuals for genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes, and the crime of aggression, although it cannot currently exercise jurisdiction over the crime of aggression.<2> The Court came into being on July 1, 2002 — the date its founding treaty, the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, entered into force<3> — and it can only prosecute crimes committed on or after that date.<4>. Among their prisoners being tried are various leaders of genocide in Africa. I believe Bush/Cheney could fall into their hands if a sovereign nation, recognized by the UN files complaints. It would behoove us to take care of our problems first before it comes to this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court

[kath]

7. Good find - thanks! I liked this part also:

Rep. John Conyers (D-MI), Chairman of the Judiciary Committee and the man in charge of calling Kucinich's resolution up for debate, said at the Take Back America Conference earlier this spring that he would consider waiting until after the presidential elections to pursue impeachment.

Kucinich does not see this as an option.

"If we wait, we're licensing further abuses of power. There's been broad concern that this administration could attack Iran. Why should we give them the opening to do so by failing to challenge the lies that they told that took us into war with Iraq?" he asked. "We cannot wait for after the election. We don't know what could happen in the next six months with respect to a further erosion of our democratic process. And what the impeachment process would do would be to have a chilling effect on further abuses of the Constitution and on creating another war."

He's also concerned after the election there could be a drop-off in interest.

Historically, such conditions led to President Gerald Ford's controversial pardon of his predecessor President Richard Nixon. In addition, Bill Clinton did not pursue the Reagan/Bush I violations of the law, particularly the Iran-Contra and BCCI illegal activity.

"If they refuse to act, you know what'll happen. The election's over and it's like, 'Well, let's not go back. That was yesterday. Let's move forward.' That's what'll happen," he predicted. "The House leadership, which is above Congressman Conyers, and even the leadership of the Democratic Party now are joining in and saying, 'Well, we just can't do this.' Well, you know what? This isn't about politics anymore. This is about whether or not there's such a thing as the rule of law, and you can't have a political agreement to violate the law."

Kucinich differs with those who have suggested that the hearings could be divisive. He sees impeachment as an opportunity for healing both the partisan divisions between people and the mistrust Americans have for their government.

"This war has been a wedge, which has driven Americans apart," he said. As for Congress, he said that "there is no logical explanation for their position. We cannot abdicate our responsibilities. If we abdicate our responsibilities, we end up being in collusion. Why are we not acting? There's a reason why the Congress is so low in polls and I think it's because the American people feel we won't stand up."

Kucinich said Congress is not living up to its responsibilities to the American people.

[elehhhhna]

14. They MUST do it, if only to stop the coming mass pardons by GB

I'm sure his people are negotiating for them this minute.

[crickets]

16. Wow. He nailed it.

He's actually saying it out loud, shaming them for ignoring their duty. Go, Dennis.

[Echo In Light]

19. K&R. A lack of action sends a loud signal to the world, and future administrations

[leftofthedial]

20. It will look like it is

that the congressional "democrats" and the opponents of impeachment are accomplices in war crimes.

[antigop]

23. bingo! Thanks for posting. n/t

[windoe]

24. Advantages of starting impeachment during Bush administration:

1- Bush and Cheney legacy is that they are criminals, preventing any future influence or public office
2- Corporate corruption of government exposed
3- Preventing attack on Iran, hobbling the Bush administration for remainder of their term
4- Republican corruption derailed, Obama win is assured
5- Mainstream Americans exposed to criminal activity
6- Obama can not be blamed by RW for this destruction
7- iraq invasion declared officially illegal, making an end to it a priority
8- Exposing war profiteers and opening possibility that their assets can be seized
a- this money put to work in repairing damage in US and overseas
b- seized money unavailable for future rise of corporate/military/fascist agenda
9- Unconstitutional laws passed by Bush exposed
10-International relations improved

Not listed is that it is the right thing to do, since this seems to be a matter of opinion for some people.

Disadvantages:

1- Impeachment hearings and prosecution takes focus away from other functions of government
2-

Not clear whether this will impede ultimate justice, or whether Bush is still free to pardon during impeachment hearings or afterwards. I cannot think of any more disadvantages.

[windoe]

25. My post above is duplicate to another post on another thread...

(thought I lost it) :)

[Desertrose]

27. We've got to start somewhere...say something that indicates

we as Americans, are aware of how badly this administration was allowed to f*ck up....and that we will not allow them to get away with it with no attempt made by at least some of the American people to stop it.