On this impeachment thing that's...

[TreasonousBastard]

got everyone riled up.

Yeah, it would be nice if the whole crew down there got frog-marched off to some dungeon, but there's a reality check involved.

First thing is this whole tinfoil nonsense about Democratic enablers working with the off-White House spy on us, get us into Iraq, take our freedom and our money, and whatever else.

Well, OF COURSE they were involved! Shrub&Co. have made no secret about how they think everything they have done has been perfectly legal and approved by Congress. A huge part of the job is unscrambling this egg they cooked and finding out exactly what was approved by Congress and what wasn't. That's not nearly as easy as some like to think-- just because we like to call things illegal doesn't mean they are. Shrub's got a phalanx of lawyers all ready to say what they think Congress did. Whether or not Congress thinks that's what they did.

And, that illegal thing is really the key-- Nixon didn't get impeached for bombing Cambodia and Clinton didn't get impeached for Whitewater. They were both tripped up by some seeming insignificant thing that was the only thing that couldn't be thrown out.

Ya see, it's a pretty ancient legal principal that executives can't be hung for doing their jobs-- anything that's part of the job is untouchable unless some sort of fraud or conversion is proven. Just fucking up and lying about it is not grounds for criminal action. Jeez, if that was the case, everybody would be thrown out of office weekly. Ain't one President in my lifetime hasn't fucked up and/or lied about it, starting with Truman lying about the Red Menace to get us into Korea.

Now, yeah, this off-White House has managed to get through 8 years without one single positive accomplishment (even NIxon had the EPA and voting rights act and Harding had the Civil Service system) and it has managed to fuck the economy possibly beyond repair, ruined out standing in the world, and started two wars it can't possibly finish. And that's just the start, what with our infrastructure falling apart, education in decline, the environment in the worst shape since we started thinking about the environment, and whoknowswhatallelse they fucked up...

And lest we forget Homeland Security... Nah, I'd rather forget Homeland Security when the DC pantloads get around to fixing that mess.

Anyway, after all that, the problem is to find something criminal that actually sticks. Kinda like when everybody knew who and what Al Capone was, but it was not paying taxes on his crime empire that took him down.

[Fovea]

1. FISA.

I just see no wiggle room there.

[robinlynne]

2. plenty of treason, plenty of felonies. I disagree.

[Cleita]

3. Right now I don't think if a smart

investigative reporter dug up proof that Bush/Cheney planned and executed 9-11 that it would stick. No one is paying attention because they are afraid of something. I believe investigation into the 35 article of impeachment would uncover such widespread corruption in Washington that they would have to build a prison around it to contain every felon it would net from the top down.

[Joe Fields]

4. I understand what you are saying, and I agree mostly, BUT,

the reality is that, in an impeachment trial, the Senators are not held to the same standard of judging evidence as a trial jury. Nothing has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

[WA98070]

5. The only standards the Senators have to meet is "How many votes will I win/lose?

[silverback]

6. Nixon wasn't impeached, Clinton wasn't convicted.

The truth is the congress is never going to convict Bush, but that really doesn't change anything.

It's important these things are investigated, and important to send a message to future power hungry politicians that the American people are watching.

If nothing else I think the last eight years have woken a lot of people up to the dangers of giving government generally too much power and particularly vesting so much power in an individual. It's important that the executive power grab we've just witnessed isn't permitted to set precedent, when we win, and we will, there will be less incentive to repudiate it but it will still be necessary to do so.