You know, hardly anyone here could say they know what it's like to be a journalist.

[HEyHEY]

- How to file a FOI request properly
- Who to go to get good solid background information
- How to talk to slimy PR creeps paid twice what you make for the job of lying to you
- How to make someone tell you the truth when they don't want to
- How to dodge bullets while holding a camera
- How to gain trustworthy sources and work those sources to get original stories
- How to build enough credibility to have someone put their entire life on the line to tell you about something wrong happening
- How to simply and quickly put a story together and still make it readable and entertaining
- How to keep your own bias out of stories, no matter how much you'd LOVE to preface your subject's name with "That asshole"
- How to stay on a story to make sure you miss no developments
- How to stand your ground when someone tries to intimidate you for doing your job
- Have the balls to put yourself and your work out there everyday for people to knock
- Put up with assholes on sites like DU calling you an "agent" or a "hack" or an "asshole" cause they don't like something you wrote.

And I doubt many of you would put your life on the line to tell a story during a war or something only to hope that somehow you can stop it. I doubt any of you know what it's like to finish college and move away from your friends and family to make minimum wage at some shithole smalltown rag cause its all you could get, let alone seeing that out to advance... Reporters are some of the toughest, smartest, most determined and kind people I have ever met. Yet they get no respect.

I'm sick of it. Why is it every asshole with a PC thinks they're a journalist? Or think they know something about media and "what's wrong with it." I've been doing this for six years now and I am constantly learning about the industry and its subtleties. Yet half the douches on the net think they can do a better job. And whenever I read these blogs and crap they are so biased its not even funny. Yet, people, MANY of them here, sit there and point to this crap like it has some accountability. You do realize most of these people just get their info from stories the real media writes? Then they throw their slant on it.

Anyway, this Russert shit is pissing me off. I'm just so sick of people blaming everything on guys like him. Old Tim did okay. And no-one, NO-ONE on this site could have done better.

Now feel free to attack me, know it alls.

[treestar]

1. The MSM is not that

The highest positions labeled "journalist" no longer function that way. No need to take it personally. It's bigger than the individuals involved, but the system rewards the posturers and the propagandists. A real journalist would be as upset about that as anyone on DU.

[HEyHEY]

2. You often forget about the good ones at the top

And paint them all with the same brush. And the MSM IS that. Some are better than others. But, in general they are.

[MindMatter]

52. That's the point. There AREN'T any good ones "at the top"

There are plenty of journalists doing all those things on your list, and your point is well taken. We don't appreciate how hard their job has become. But to confuse honest journalism with the kind of crap you see on TV from Russert and the other 75 "news personalities" who are just like him, is to be completely naive.

All those TV guys do these days is toss softballs at the neocons. Why? because the neocons own the companies that are paying all their salaries. It isn't terribly complicated.

[HEyHEY]

58. You like KO?

[MindMatter]

62. He isn't "at the top" and he isn't a reporter.

He is a commentator. I would have thought a person who works in the profession would know the difference.

In our system, the most penetrating questions consistently come from Jon Stewart, Bill Maher, and to a lesser extent, Letterman and Leno. Just for the record, those guys aren't newsmen either. They are comedians.

[HEyHEY]

71. Uh... by your def, then, russert isn't a reporter

[MindMatter]

90. There were times when he played the role of commentator, but on MTP

his job was to get to the truth. You don't get to the truth by offering up a steady stream of softballs. In a single 10-minute interview on any given night, Jon Stewart (a comedian by trade) asks more penetrating questions than the average network "news" guy does in a year.

[MindMatter]

91. Bill Moyers is the only exception that comes to mind

The rest are in the go-along-to-get-along fraternity.

[Benhurst]

4. Thanks.

Maybe it's necessary to live in a country which no longer has a free press to understand what's going on here.

Corporate whores like the late Mr. Russert deserve no more respect than the "journalists" who worked for Pravda in Joe Stalin's day.

[LaurenG]

3. Way to say it HeyHey. There is some ugly stuff around here lately

and I'm happy to kick and rec.

[CoffeeCat]

5. Hey, I was one of those slimy...

....PR creeps.

I was just doing my job! ;)

Some of us didn't lie. I worked in PR for high-tech and biotech companies. Lying
would have meant the end of my career.

[HEyHEY]

7. Yeah, there are good ones too

I mean the bastards who usually work for the government.

[terrya]

6. Thank you for offering some much needed perspective.

:thumbsup:

[saracat]

8. Thank you. You are ansplutely correct and i am sickened by the crap posted here.

[DFW]

9. I'll say it

My dad was a Washington correspondent for fifty years. He was lauded in the Congressional
Record by politicians from both left and right. His friends were at the house all the time,
and at least one of his contemporaries is still a friend of mine (her name is Helen Thomas).
I grew up in the thick of it. He used to take me up to the Senate Press Gallery at the Capitol
when I was small, and let me hang with guys with names like Humphrey, Dirksen and Javits. I
chose another profession, but was always close to my dad, and always close to American
journalism. You don't get elected president of the Gridiron Club easliy. He made it.

My dad knew Tim Russert well, and before he died a few years ago, he remarked that Russert did
NOT do OK. He said Russert let himself get sidetracked by his feelings on certain issues (for
one, the Lewinsky affair, for which he never forgave Bill Clinton), and, as a guest several
times on the original Meet The Press, felt that Russert had totally perverted the real idea
behind the show in favor of becoming a media star himself. This does not mean that Russert
was incapable of real journalism. It does mean that he knew the difference between right and
wrong, and did not always make the right choice.

[HEyHEY]

Must have been interesting

To grow up in that environment. I can't speak from the background and all that stuff. And I did not watch Russert everyday. But, when I did, I thought he was okay. He certainly wasn't deserving of the shit he's been getting here.

[DFW]

22. When you grow up in it, you don't notice that it is something exceptional

When I was 4 years old, I thought it odd that my dad knew so many guys
named "Senator," whereas all the kids I played with had names like Bill
and Jim, etc.

Being stationed outside the USA as I have been, I didn't watch Russert
much, but on my trips back to the States, I did see Russert on occasion.
I agreed with my dad that his "reporting" on the Lewinsky affair was biased
and despicable. I also agree with those who say he was harder on the left
than on the right. Beyond this, if he was fair in other aspects, then that
should be a part of his legacy as well. I obviously had never seen enough
of him to make a rounded judgment, only what I heard from my dad and what
I saw during my visits Stateside.

At the end of the day, negative comments here will not count much against
all the adulation he is getting in the MSM, of which he was so very much a
part. Both are probably extremes in any case.

[HEyHEY]

28. That's hilarious

My parents owned a printing press.... nothing interesting there. :-(

[DFW]

81. Maybe there was. They probably were better off financiallly

My dad was a print journalist for a one-horse town in rural New York State.
His stature came from his journalistic integrity and ingenuity, not because
he had a prestige newspaper behind him. He was one of the very few to become
president of the Gridiron Club despite not being from a "name" newspaper or
press agency, but he never got big money for it. His paper could never have
afforded it. His successor is still in that small cluttered office in the
National Press Building at 14th and F Streets in D.C.

When I was in high school, I used to help him out at his office in Washington
during the summer. While he was running over to the Capitol or the White House,
I was stuck back in his cluttered office in the National Press Building trying
to help sort papers and articles he needed for reference. Real reporting is not
just having Wolf Blitzer calling you "the best political team on television." It
also involves drudgery, legwork, and research.

The original Meet The Press, by the way, was just that. Founder Larry Spivack had
the guest from the political scene face a panel of three reporters (never the same
ones) who asked questions in turn, with Spivack asking his own questions when he wished,
but he never crowded his invited reporters out. Russert turned it into "Meet Tim
Russert," and turned himself into the star, which is NOT what journalism is all about.

[onenote]

162. not completely accurate history of MTP

MTP actually was the brainchild of journalist Martha Rountree, not Larry Spivack, and she was the first moderator, back in the 50s. She was succeeded by Ned Brooks, who had the job for a dozen or so years until the mid-60s when Spivak took over. Spivack had been a panelist on the show during most of the years leading up to his taking over the lead chair (while the other panelists changed from week to week, Spivack was a permanent member of the panel).

Spivak had the job from the mid-60s to the mid-70s, and ehn was replaced by a guy name Bill Monroe, who had the job about the same length of time as Spivack (from the mid-70s to the mid-80s). After that, the moderator slot was held by several folks for a year or two: Marvin Kalb, Chris Wallace, Garrick Utley. Russert took over in 1991 and the format did change from a panel approach to a one-on-one. It also increased in length to an hour. One of the reasons for the format change was to compete better with Face the Nation (which was a single moderator program) and with This Week (which does have a roundtable segment with other journalists).

[NashVegas]

42. You See, That's Kind of the Thing. He Was "Okay"

He was the bureau chief and he was just okay. And he appears to have encouraged everyone he worked with to be "okay."

Does "okay" really justify the love-fest and elevation to Murrow-hood?

What's upsetting to me and many others is that by elevating Russert to walking-on-water status, TV pundits are excusing and justifying their own mediocrity.

What did Tim Russert ever do for journalism that changed anything - for the better?

[Kahuna]

17. Thanks for your very valuable personal insight. nt

[YankmeCrankme]

10. Whatever...

This logic that you must be of a profession to be able to criticize or assess skill or merit is ridiculous. I don't have to be a baseball player to evaluate the skills or talents of a ballplayer. I don't have to be a doctor to figure out he's a quack. And I don't have to be a journalist to figure out if someone is a hack.

Since he decided to take work in a field that requires honesty, objectivity, truth seeking, integrity, and holding government to task to inform the public and he fails to do so I can criticize him and his work. Was he any different than others, possibly...was he better than most, possibly, but that doesn't mitigate the standard I would hold a journalist to.

If people would just quit posting about what a great guy he was or great journalist maybe others would quit posting rebuttals. Obviously, a lot of people liked his work and a lot of people didn't. When you have someone who dies that fits that kind of opinion you're going to get differing posts reflecting that. That happens with every news item about someone's death.

To pontificate on how horrible people are just adds fuel to the fire.

[Bluerthanblue]

11. I won't be the first person

to attack you, and I hope I'm not the last person to say

Thank you.

For doing what you do- for trying to make a difference- for caring.

I honestly believe that people are really really scared HeyHey. Of all kinds of things, especially our own mortality.
And that fear is uncomfortable to sit with, and untimely deaths drive home our fragility.

It's more comfortable for some to be angry than it is to feel mortal- to feel vulnerable, and to face the reality that we really don't 'control' our lives in the way we'd like to think we do.

Anyway- thank you for speaking up, and for being willing to do a job that offers "guaranteed enemies" as a 'bonus' - no matter how you parse your words.

:hug:

peace~
blu

[HEyHEY]

29. intersting perspective

Could have something with the death angle there.

[arcadian]

12. Spare us the righteous indignation.

I do all those things and I DON'T get paid for them.

[HEyHEY]

13. sure you do

[arcadian]

15. What you are doing here is extremely unethical.

But you should know that shouldn't you? What's your paper and who's your editor?

[HEyHEY]

16. There is nothing unethical about voicing an opinion on the net

And as if I'd give you my personal info. Let alone anyone here. You just proved my point about people not understanding what the profession entails.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PeaceNikki]

19. What specifically is "unethical" about that OP?

[HEyHEY]

27. It would appear, according to him, when I became a reporter I gave up

My right to free speech.

[stray cat]

14. Many here claim to know everything - but I agree with you completely

[Berry Cool]

18. Same here. Thanks for this. K&R with pleasure.

I was not madly in love with Tim Russert when he was alive, and I'm not madly in love with him now that he's dead. But while I don't think he was a saint, neither do I think he was Satan incarnate.

And I'm sick of this "Kick him now that he's dead, and WE have decided MSNBC is mourning him 'too much,' and it's time for them to snap out of it and do their jobs again" bullshit. As if anyone should lecture to ANYONE else about how long it is "OK to mourn."

And I don't give a shit that they are using their TV network to do it. We don't pay to keep their network on the air. The advertisers do. If their advertisers don't care that they are doing this, we get no say.

You want to see other news? Turn to another channel, get online, pick up the newspaper, turn on the radio. It's there for you. The news hasn't been canceled, and it isn't being ignored, and no one is trying to deliberately keep you in the dark, and awful things aren't happening in the world with people who should know not knowing about it. Turn off MSNBC and turn on another channel until they're done. They will be back to bringing news soon enough.

And it is indeed amazing how everyone with a computer and an Internet connection nowadays thinks he's a journalist. Well, until you've tried to do the actual work, you DON'T know what it's like. You just don't. That doesn't mean you can't criticize--but when you do, I hope you do it with at least some attempt to understand the complexity of what's involved. And some understanding that it is the job of journalists merely to report the truth as they see it. It is not their job to do anything else. It is not their job to send criminals to jail--not even when they know someone is guilty. That's why they sometimes have to protect anonymous sources, even at the cost of going to jail themselves. Police work is not part of the job description. They are supposed to report the facts and let the other players do the rest.

Yes, journalists are there to inform the public, and if you don't think they're doing their jobs, tell them. While they're alive. Pissing on their graves after they're dead, even if you weren't happy with all their work, is just cowardly and in poor taste.

I don't know that "no one on this site" could have done better than Russert, but I'm willing to bet that 100% of those who are crabbing the most about him now could not have.

[PeaceNikki]

20. I think "know it alls" should be hyphenated.

Thus concludes my attack.

[HEyHEY]

21. hahaha

smack!

[TreasonousBastard]

24. And the deadline and management pressures, all the...

while not knowing when the next round of cuts is coming.

Sure, there are loads of problems, as with any business, but while the peanut gallery is whining about "enablers" Reporters without Borders is keeping count of the journalists who are killed in action every month.

Most of you aren't covering wars or the White House, but you work just as hard to get something from the local cops about a murder or from the town about traffic changes. It's a tough job not getting easier and few of the whiners could last a week doing it.

So, no flames from here.

[skooooo]

25. We don't know what it's like...

...so we have no right to have expectations of professionalism from them?

[HEyHEY]

26. It's not that you shouldn't have expectations

But they should be grounded in reality. Many aren't.

[wtmusic]

30. I didn't realize you had to be a journalist to pass judgement on one.

:eyes:

Tim was a biased RW shill. Next.

[HEyHEY]

31. Very introspective

When does your book on media come out?

[wtmusic]

32. I didn't realize you had to be an author to pass judgement on a journalist.

Get real. Do I have to be a director to tell you whether I like a movie or not?

:eyes:

[HEyHEY]

33. Did I say you had to be? No, you guys somehow act like I said that...

Why? Cause you want a simple target to attack me on. I'm saying maybe you people should realize the fucking job ain't so easy before you open your gobs and start tearing everyone down.

[wtmusic]

37. Whether the job is easy or not is irrelevant

You either do a good job or you don't. IMO Tim did an average job, nothing more, based on comparison to hundreds of other telejournalists I've watched over the years. Like most people here.

The job was hard for Ed Murrow, Walter Cronkite, Dan Rather, and Bill Moyers. They didn't/don't find the need to boost ratings with "gotcha"-style attacks and flattering editing, or color interviews with their personal opinions.

[YankmeCrankme]

39. Try reading your OP

"Or think they know something about media and "what's wrong with it."

You explicitly state that those that don't know what it's like to be journalist, i.e. have done the work of a journalist (it's in your OP) you can't possibly criticize them or hold them to standards.

[HEyHEY]

44. I didn't say they can't I said their opinion may be ill-informed

[YankmeCrankme]

83. Just as yours could be.

But, you attacked those that had a different opinion than you did.

I'll stick with my belief that a journalist should have integrity, be honest, objective and hold government to account on its actions and statements as a few of his qualities. It doesn't matter whether I know how to fill out a FOIA form or know what it's like to work in a newsroom with deadlines or whether I know how it feels to be in a war zone reporting. Just like I don't need to know what its like to be at a NFL combine or know how it feels to be on a practice field or have experienced an actual NFL game to be able to evaluate someone's performance.

[HEyHEY]

159. read this thread

I don't attack anyone... yet I've been fending off personal insults and slights from the begining.

[Ignis]

169. Your OP ended with "Now feel free to attack me, know it alls." (nt)

[YankmeCrankme]

170. I was going to let this go, but your response is totally unbelievable.

"And I doubt many of you would put your life on the line to tell a story during a war or something only to hope that somehow you can stop it." Attack. Yeah, nobody but those good old journalists like Tim put their life on the line to do good.

"I doubt any of you know what it's like to finish college and move away from your friends and family to make minimum wage at some shithole smalltown rag cause its all you could get,..." Attack. Yeah, nobody but journalists like Tim get low paying, crappy jobs out of college.

"I'm sick of it. Why is it every asshole with a PC thinks they're a journalist?" Attack. Yeah, were all assholes.

Of course maybe you don't think insulting the intelligent, integrity, work ethic and character of other posters is attacking them, but I do.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. Or, a plumber.

Although I have crawled under houses as an electrician and wielded a wrench and plunger. I have to say that plumbing is something I seldom do or want to do.

However, I reserve the right to criticize lousy plumbers...or celebrity talking heads.

[MindMatter]

57. Why would you want to weld a wrench to a plunger?

"Wield"" Oh. That's different.

Never mind.

I'm surprised Sears doesn't sell a combination plunger and wrench. That way when the plunger doesn't work, you'll already have the tools to take the toilet apart.

[HEyHEY]

64. the ultimate tool!

[Cleita]

35. Good on ya HEyHEY

I agree.

[KG]

36. righteous indignation: the other white meat.

[HEyHEY]

45. Yeah, no one can say ANYTHING about the field in which they work

Without it being "the other white meat"

[Skidmore]

38. I hear from you that "it's hard work."

However, given the events of the * years and enabling of blatant criminal activity or the blind eye much of the media turned to it, you certainly will understand the skepticism many feel. Some journalists did their jobs, and others (and some of the the most prominent) sucked up to power figures and did a huge disservice to the nation. Some of the more egregious acts were ferreted out and reported by citizen bloggers while the media sat on stories or did not report them accurately or buried them as deeply as they could when they felt forced to give them a nod for the record.

[jgraz]

40. Spoken like a true, experienced war correspondent.

Tell me, which unit were you embedded with?

[HEyHEY]

46. Canadian military doesn't embed reporters

[jgraz]

47. So your journalistic experience would be...?

I mean, clearly you wouldn't dare to comment on journalism without years of experience in the field.

[HEyHEY]

49. I have about six years experience

I can't say the places I work (There's two, print and broadcast) because it's too risky as both are well known. But, jgraz, I'm happy to say both are respected media outlets. And I've gotten there by working hard and always sticking to my values. And there's so many like me out there. And that's why I get upset at how much people bash us. Because I know how many of us bust our ass all the time with the best interests of society at heart.

[jgraz]

79. And you do... what, exactly?

See, I ask because most real journalists do not speak of those at the top of the corporate pyramid with the kind of reverential hero-worship you seem to have. I was married to a real, working journalist for ten years, and she and her colleagues had nothing but contempt for Russert and those like him. It makes me wonder what kind of "journalism" would leave someone with such an idealized, fantastical picture of how real journalists do their jobs.

[HEyHEY]

99. I don't have hero worship

I'm just saying you guys should ease off. And I am a general assignment reporter. My specialties are civic politics and oil and gas issues (provincially)

[jgraz]

117. In all sincerity, I wish you the best of luck

From what I've seen, most journalists work their asses off for little reward. In the US, the more truth you tell, the less likely it is that you'll be able to make a living at it.

As Timmeh so famously said: "Integrity is for paupers."

[HCE SuiGeneris]

109. jgraz

you always get directly to the point....

:thumbsup:

love your intelligence and style

[jgraz]

155. wow, thanks

:blush:

[annabanana]

84. Um . . respected by who and why on earth should we believe that

you are what you say you are?

I am the Queen of a small country and NO ONE understands how hard we have it...

[HEyHEY]

100. there's plenty

Of people here I have met in person who can vouch

[HCE SuiGeneris]

111. As a "seasoned journalist"

you would think your standards would not allow statements like, "And whenever I read these blogs and crap they are so biased its not even funny."

[HEyHEY]

114. Dude, I'm on the internet - in my undewear, hungover

Like I give a shit about my grammar. But it's nice to see how if I give an answer, you people try to find another low to attack me. Seriously, some fucking awful humans here.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

116. The problem is you are attacking with the ole broad brush.

Knock it off.

[HEyHEY]

120. no.

[Lex]

41. I don't have to *be* something to know when it's not being done right.

Car repair, plumbing, mail delivery, lawyering, house-building, grocery store clerking, well . . . anything.

Please.

[Blue_Tires]

43. i can check off most of the things on the list...

i used to be a reporter before all the jobs dried up...

[HEyHEY]

48. That's too bad, BT

It is a hard go these days. I don't even have a job. I live off my casual shifts and freelance articles. And I wish to god I could do something else. But, frankly, journalism is the reason I get up in the morning. And I suck at all other things. I wake up and, cheesy as it is, I say, "Fucking A! I get to be a reporter today!" In the past it has cuased me so much hardship in the money department. But, I wouldn't have it any other way, especially now that I make money.

[MindMatter]

59. Does it bother you at all

to see that people who do the hard work of reporting are no longer valued while bullshit artists and right-wing cheerleaders are given multi-media salaries and anointed the "top newsmen in the country" even though they never do any of the items on your list?

If I were in your position, I think I would have some hostility about that. I am all in favor of more respect for hard-working, real journalists. I just don't see how you can turn that into a defense of the empty suits like Russert.

I notice your avatar is the maple leaf. Are you a Canadian coming here to lecture Americans about what has happened to our press?

[HEyHEY]

65. Mind matter

I'm not in the position to lecture. But, sadly Canadian news is going that way. And when i see a guy like russert... I look at him as old school. and I look to the old school guys as guidance... cause they seem to know it all. And many are stuck to true values of the craft. Check your pM

[Blue_Tires]

158. agreed

i do miss the vibe of a high-energy newsroom, and while i never jumped up and yelled it, i did love the research and writing that went into a good in-depth story...but the circumstances of unemployment and the economy have forced my hand and now i'm in PR (:eyes: )....I did almost become an elementary schoolteacher, though (:dunce: )

[apocalypsehow]

50. Big, hearty K & R.

:thumbsup:

[HEyHEY]

54. thanks dude!

[tandot]

51. Thanks, HEyHEY. Great post.

Just logged on to K & R. I don't know what happened, but lately, it seems like some assholes have taken over DU.

I'll sign off again...there are more important things in life than arguing with some know-it-alls.

[HEyHEY]

53. Yeah, I know... I rarely venture to GD

Did today and was called a "wife-beater" for my views on media... reminds me why I stick to the lounge. But, it's nice when someone gets it, thanks to you, and the poster above.

[slampoet]

55. Russert did none of these things. He had "people" to do that.

[HEyHEY]

56. You are right about that, slampoet

When you get to that stage you have interns, producers and the like who do your research. But, that doesn't mean your research doesn't get done.

As young reporter I have seen many a guy I had opinions on. MANY times it was totally reversed when I had a beer with them. Problem is, society can't see ther difference between the reporter and the story.

[slampoet]

69. Actually we CAN say that this work didn't get done.

Otherwise we'd have had real information leading into Iraq.


Still to this day Bloggers and the BBC and Al Jazera scoop MSNBC everyday.


And stop drinking with your subjects. It is whorish behavior at best.

[HEyHEY]

70. hahah, but they get stupid and say stuff they aren't supposed to!

BTW, Al Jazeera isn't the saint you think... state run....

[slampoet]

82. I never said any organization had any moral compass.

The BBC is state run also.

[HEyHEY]

122. SO is the CBC

But, AJ has more interference from governments than people think.

[sandnsea]

60. Well yeah, but Canada actually does news

Our television doesn't anymore. We wouldn't be in Iraq if they did.

[HEyHEY]

63. Sadly that is changin

Problem is Canada and the USA share many things in common.... politics and media are not one of them. And now all these fucking douchebag execs with no brains have looked at how popular US tv and music is and seem to think that translates into news. So, they hired a bunch of US consultants to americanize our news. The CBC, for example, is sliding down the hill. And now they are covering stupid shit like car accidents and such cause that's what US consultants have told them the people want. I'm just hoping its a short life cycle.

[question everything]

61. Thank you. I am amazed at the hatred being flung at Russert

I logged on when the site came back and could not believe that the "greatest" is a thread bashing him.

I guess the hatred on DU is alive and well only now, instead of using Hillary as a target, it is now network reporters.

[MindMatter]

66. I don't think many people hated Russert and few of the posts express hatred

Many of us are not at all satisfied with the system he worked in -- and played a key role in neutering. Many of us believe that the dismantling of the mainstream press has been systematic, and is a major factor enabling the takeover of this country by crooks and thugs. While nobody holds Russert individually responsible for all the problems with the MSM, we take great exception to the glowing platitudes the MSM is showering upon itself in the form of Russert's obituary.

[DaveJ]

67. Well yeah I think I know what it's like...

Even though I didn't chose journalism as my career I've faced similar scenarios after college and decided to take a more ethical route rather than going for the money positions.

When I die... nobody will notice.

Edit: It's not about creating a pity party for me. But come on. Such pomp and circumstance for Russert? I respect real journalists but this has nothing to do with what people are complaining about today.

[demobabe]

68. So really, what is your point here?

So what is it, Tim Russert dies and suddenly this is all something about you and your job?

Please tell me about all the bullets you've dodged while holding a camera in Canada. How many times have you risked your life to tell your story during a time of war? Canada doesn't "embed" journalists, do they?

For that matter, I don't think Russert has been in a war zone and probably has not had to dodge bullets while holding a camera, but I digress...

I'd also like to know exactly what the "everything" is that people are blaming on Russert?

It's real straight forward. Russert was a journalist who had been doing this for a while, and now he's dead. That doesn't excuse him for or diminish the fact he was complicit with the Bush Administration of helping lead us into a war where over a million Iraqis have lost their lives, over 4,000 soldiers have died, and tens of thousands more have been injured (many seriously).

If Russert had the gumption to speak up, he could have potentially ended the Iraq war before it started. He didn't because he didn't want to lose favor with the inner DC circle.

I worked for the same newspaper where a reporter named Don Bolles also died on the job.

Tim Russert was no Don Bolles.

[HEyHEY]

72. You proved m point

"If Russert had the gumption to speak up"
You want someone to tell your side.

[demobabe]

76. I don't have a "side" in this

An objective reporter gathers facts and then reports them, right?

Clearly, Russert had facts he didn't report, because he perceived doing so would negatively impact his career.

What I'm getting from you that it's okay to sacrifice national security and actual lives to protect and advance your career.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x155317

[demobabe]

78. Additionally...

"You want someone to tell your side" didn't appear to be what your OP was about.

I got that YOU were tired of reading posts critical of Russert and that YOUR opinion that he was a decent guy is more important and credible because you're a "journalist."

This is the thing that drives me nuts about so many in the media: their inflated self opinion because they think their job makes them "somebody," when they're clearly putting their low self-esteem on display for everyone to see.

[HEyHEY]

106. uh, froid, ease up

It's fucking sad as hell that on DU someone who actually works in the field of journalism can't comment about it without getting a shitload of personal attacks. If I was a carpenter talking about that I wouldnt' get this. It displays the automatically piss poor attitude people have towards reporters on this site. ANd no, we don't think our job makes us "Somebody " we just get sick and tired of taking shit from people like you all the time - hence the attitude.

[demobabe]

148. Geebus...

"ANd no, we don't think our job makes us 'Somebody' we just get sick and tired of taking shit from people like you all the time - hence the attitude."

Shit from people like me?

I only worked at one of the top newspapers in the country (which you would have figured out if you read my posts).

Tell me more about how the universe works, Einstein.

[Oeditpus Rex]

151. One that endorsed George W. Bush for president

Twice.

[demobabe]

152. The editorial board does it's own thing

And this is their editorial cartoonist, who does his own thing, too:

http://www.azcentral.com/php-bin/commphotos/view.php?id=142167

Clearly a Bush supporter.

[Oeditpus Rex]

153. Clearly

My point being that news media's business model changes with ownership, and frequently those changes affect editorial content.

I don't know what your paper was like when Bolles was there, but it's a pretty safe bet that its purchase by Gannett influenced the decision to support W. (I also don't know what the Tucson Citizen is like now or was like under other rule, but if Gannett Golden Boy Mike Chihak did to it what he did earlier to the Salinas Californian, it should be re-named the Republican-Shopper.)

[demobabe]

172. That wasn't your point at all

You were trying to paint me as a Bush supporter. Nice try to divert the attention, though.

[Oeditpus Rex]

174. Ah, a mind reader!

Sorry, no — but thanks for playing; you've been a wonderful contestant.

[demobabe]

177. Ha ha!

The consolation prizes go to you, my friend!

[Oeditpus Rex]

179. You amuse me, Mentalo

Tell me — are you playing any nearby county fairs this year?

[Lyric]

175. I'd say that his point was that your "top newspaper"

isn't all that admirable when you consider where they choose to disperse their accolades and endorsements.

I suppose Enron was one of the "top corporations in America" once upon a time, too. Does that impress you? Then don't expect anyone else to be terribly impressed when you boast about working for one of America's "top newspapers." There are papers and there are papers. Lucrative, it might be. Respectable? Not if they endorsed Bush--much less TWICE.

[demobabe]

176. Newspapers are a sum of their parts

While the editorial board may decide to endorse Bush, that doesn't mean that all staffers endorse or even like Bush. Don Bolles went after the Mafia. Steve Benson draws cartoons that support Barack Obama. For your information, they endorsed Janet Napolitano for Governor!

This black/white thing of "respectable" because of the given opinion of a group of middle to old white men have ONE opinion at a specific point in time doesn't mean the rest of the paper is shit, and doesn't ever have different people with different opinions.

By your logic, because Enron's CEO ran it into the ground, all Enron employees are scum and got what they deserved. Yes, Enron WAS a top corporation at one time, and the screwups of a small group of corrupt people don't reflect the history of the company that dates back before Ken Lay was even born.

[bettyellen]

88. no we wanted someone to stand up + tell the fucking truth- and you claim thats too much to ask!

that's why the majority here is bullshit- you think no one should have standards. LOL

[HEyHEY]

103. um... get real

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that this is a hard, hard job. And despite how easy you people think it is to do it and how cut and dry it seems to you it isn't. Hence mistakes are made.

[bettyellen]

171. sorry, i have a tough job too. i had a chance to suck off the boss and have it eásier

i opted not to. timmy did. it is what it is, and it's not about you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. Was, by default, the PIO for the Mexican Red Cross

as to risking my life, been shot at more times than I care to remember

Trying to make a better place? Yep, been there, done that

Talking to Journos, OFF the record? Yep... again been there done that

So whatever....

Oh and I did mind my Ps and Qs when I got to play PIO, and never, EVER lied. But I also saw HOW the press at times did its job... and it is akin to sausage making. Oh wait, sausage making is less disgusting at times

Oh and I forgot, my pay for this was.. a thank you on a good day...

[HEyHEY]

74. Good for you

When I read something by someone who has been there I certainly take it more seriously. But, you must admit... for the reporters you saw who sucked ass... there were people dodging the same bullets for a true cause.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. The point is that they are going overboard right now and have cancelled the news

and reality is that in the war on drugs in Mexico, way too many reporters have been killed

Some that I knew personally... those were kicks in gut, but their partners did not abandon their posts and they continued to do their job

[Fox Mulder]

75. He was a hack.

He was no different than anyone on Faux News.

[Oeditpus Rex]

80. I do

So I also know journalism is two things: One of the most unfairly maligned professions in history, and one of the most fairly maligned.

When a reporter does his or her job properly, few people notice and fewer care because it's what's expected. Fine; that's the way it should be. But when they do it poorly — and dog knows they do — it seems everyone knows, and everyone has an opinion about it.

I don't mind the opinions nearly as much as I mind the hyperbolic ignorance that's frequently behind them, whether it's "You didn't mention my kid in your story because you hate Mexicans" or "Tim Russert lied the U.S. into a war." I have virtually no opinion on Russert as a journalist — I simply don't watch enough network news to be qualified to form one — but it's almost beyond my comprehension that a rational adult human could believe that the Wregime would not have started this war regardless of what the news media reported. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al didn't pick up the Washington Post or the New York Times every day or watch CNN, MSNBC or Faux hoping to see the headlines that that would allow them to say, "Oh, good! The media say we can go ahead!" That'd be like the New England Patriots reading a Boston Globe story headlined "Pats' 'D' will decide Super Bowl" and thinking, "Geez, we'd better boost our blitz frequency."

Rare was the occasion I'd start to write a story without thinking, "Somebody's gonna give me shit for this." It's one thing to get shit; it's quite another to get it from people who are just hell-bent on throwing it, with no knowledge of what kind of hoops I had to jump through to get the story. They thought I didn't know it had holes; they were wrong. They didn't know that I had to exhaust every resource I had just to get that much, and they didn't know that my editor said, "It's 8:15; we run what we've got. If it needs fixing, we can fix it later." (If you've ever seen "The Paper," it never happens that way. Nobody stops the presses to change the lede, because it would cost a ton of money, and there's always tomorrow.)

That's the nature of the business — that it is a business. If you want to complain about it, complain about the owners and publishers who force editors and reporters into the unenviable position of doing it their way or else. (Many of the best have taken the second option. That's one of the main reasons journalism's in the state it's in.)

Oh, and read Knightfall: Knight Ridder and How the Erosion of Newspaper Journalism is Putting Democracy at Risk, by former KR editor Davis Merritt. It's an eye-opener.

[YankmeCrankme]

86. good point, but I disagree with the media has no power to influence

I think you have it backwards, Cheney, et al, didn't pick up the news to see if it were okay to attack, they feed the media and the media promoted the need for war to get the rest of us on board for the war. Without us being on board the attack probably doesn't happen. An example of this is Hearst using his newspapers to convince the US population about the need for a war with Spain in 1898. You don't think they are even more sophisticated now?

If a large part of the media had been against the war and published words, interviews and opinions of those that were against it the administration might have had second thoughts or declined at that time to go ahead with it. Frankly, I think a major reason that has kept the administration from attacking Iran at this point is that the media isn't in support of it. Oh, they print or report the government propaganda, but they aren't really pushing or supporting it.

I find it hard to believe someone in journalism would think that words and the media can't influence thought.

[Oeditpus Rex]

94. Controlling the Middle East was on the agenda even before the 2000 election

The Wregime didn't need public support to attack Iraq. Getting it likely saved them a few more propaganda speeches, but that's all.

I'm hyper-aware of the power of words to influence thought, but no influence was necessary in this case.

[YankmeCrankme]

96. Of course it was necessary.

They had to convince the population that Iraq was involved in 9/11, paint Hussein as a terrorist training, WMD building, about-to-strike threat. Without that there would have been no invasion and occupation no matter how much they wanted to do it. Otherwise, why didn't they invade him after they got into office?

If 9/11 hadn't happened and allowed them to use that as propaganda do you really thing they could have convinced the people to get behind it? Do you really think Congress would have let the President act unilaterally in attacking a country that had not attacked us or was threatening to us?

Once 9/11 happened they were able to put the full force of the media propaganda machine in place and steer public opinion to the inevitability of military conflict with Iraq.

[Oeditpus Rex]

97. Even the Wregime understands and respects the effects of history

An attack universally recognized as unprovoked would have come back to haunt them, especially in November, 2004.

Why do I think they waited? Because they knew it was coming and they needed it. And that's all they needed, with a push from the 2003 SOTU.

When has public opinion ever mattered to the Wregime? W is on record as having said he does what he thinks is right, not what he thinks is popular.

[Robb]

85. I agree with everything you said except the bit about

Russert. :P

[hellbound-liberal]

87. I don't know what it's like to be President either, does that mean I can't criiticize Bush?

I don't think we have to know everything there is to know about the "process" of journalism to be able to criticize the "product".

edited for spelling

[Echo In Light]

89. Long established irrational attitudes of submission to authority

You're correct...one needn't be a chicken to know what an egg is.

[HEyHEY]

123. No, but if one understands how an egg is made

One might not make such ignorant comments about the egg when it's finished.

[Echo In Light]

131. Please do explain how my remarks are "ignorant."

[HEyHEY]

135. Not you - people here in general

[Ignis]

168. So, Democrats or Progressives are ignorant in general? (nt)

[HEyHEY]

101. not saying you do

Just asking people to think before they post

[Eurobabe]

92. My father was a journalist, editor and managing editor until early 1980s

He says what passes for 'journalism' today is a joke. I trust his judgment. :hi:

[librechik]

93. Tim was the Executive Producer of the News Division at NBC, not a journalist

All the decisions about what they covered and how, on All THE NEWS SHOWS, went through Tim. He was responsible for the years NBC spent focusing on Bill Clinton's wayward ways instead of REAL news, crippling the presidency. He was responsible for the gradual disappearance of the foreign bureaus. He was responsible for the lack of serious questions about the buildup to the invasion. he was responsible for the blackout over the stolen elections in 2000 and 2004. He slavishly propped up this illegal president in the face of all the lies and crimes. He kept his mouth shut about Scooter Libby's treason until he was forced to speak by subpoena--and then he had to admit he only told just what the White House told him to say and no more.

He was NOT a journalist, nor was he ever (he was a political flak before he fell into the NBC job-never set foot in journalism school.) All those honest things you list that journalists do, Tim never did--if anything he had a dozen underlings do that for him--only to ignore them if it didn't suit his goal, which was getting ratings, not telling the truth. He ignored news when it suited him and his masters at GE. He consistently attacked one party and threw softballs to the other. Media Matters did a study, and MTP was overwhelmingly biased against Democrats and favorable to Republicans, by thirty to forty percent.

Tim was a partisan corporate shill, pretending to be a journalist. He gave himself the high-profile MTP gig so he could show off his "aggressive interviewing style" there--and so people would think (mistakenly, as we know) NBC was an aggressive news gatherer. He fooled everybody with his barking and backslapping. He fooled you, a professional journalist.

This thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3456344

has just one example of a real journalist, Bill Moyers, exposing Tim in a lie, exposing him for his craven obeisance to the Cheney White House. This sort of thing was par for the course with the Executive Producer of the News Division of NBC.

I too am a journalist with two journalism degrees and decades of street experience. Today I hold a responsible gateway position in broadcast news. Tim never fooled me. I won't worship his phony image, just because he died at a relatively early age. I feel pity for all those blindly rushing to throw themselves on the funeral pyre with him. If only you had better access to information, maybe you would have better judgment. Tim was in part responsible for why you don't.

[AngryOldDem]

95. Good post, but sadly, why do you bother? Really.

Take comfort, though, in the knowledge that a few of us do get it.

And you nailed it. If anyone here thinks they can do a better job in the media, government, politics, social services...then to quote Nike: JUST DO IT. Otherwise, shut the fuck up and stop the personal attacks on those who can no longer speak.

But that would involve clicking off the computer, stepping out from the creature comforts of cyberspace anonymity, and possibly (no, make that probably) having to admit that one DOES NOT know it all! Much easier to keep the cushy seat in the peanut gallery and lob insults and derisions from there.

I worked as a copy editor for several years, and while I was not on the front lines of reporting, the pressures, obligations, and responsibilities I felt were just as real as those any other journalist faces. So I know and appreciate what you are saying.

And this occurred to me earlier: All Tim Russert wanted to do was give us poor slobs some insight into the process so that we could make up our own minds about the issues of the day and who was leading the agenda. I DEFY anyone to say that Mr. Russert failed in that task. All the threads here, hateful or positive, prove that he did his job and he did it well.

Sometimes the self-righteousness and sanctimony here make me ill. I noticed it as early as a few years back when Pat Tillman (now a DU saint, apparently -- go figure, but relish the irony nevertheless) was killed, and it seems to grow exponentially with the death of any public figure. Some posts do raise legitmate questions about the ultimate legacy of those who have passed. But others, I have come to conclude, are nothing but hate pieces fueled in the most part by impotent jealousy. If your existences are all that empty, then take another clue from Tim Russert: Make your lives begin to count for something today because you may not have tomorrow.

And with that, I'm done with these threads -- and possibly this forum -- for awhile.

[BlooInBloo]

98. RIP Tim "everything is presumed to be off the record" Russert.

[EFerrari]

102. I spent ten years during which every single f#cking word I wrote

had to be not only sourced but also checked to make sure no one had said it before me. Deal with critics, competitors and stay on top of the issue. Develop sources and deal with the public. It's called doing your fucking job.

[HEyHEY]

110. I'm not complaining about that - I love my job and I love the work involved

But, when you get a bunch of completely ignorant assholes like the ones here dancing on someone's grave and talking as if they could do a better job when they clearly have no idea what the job entails.... I feel like saying something.

[EFerrari]

118. I'm in no position to complain about ignorant @ssholes.

lol

:P

[Marr]

130. It's not a question of doing a better job.

Russert did his "job" very well. His job was to promote the corporate interpretation of the weeks events, and limit the debate to what Wall Street finds acceptable. He did that very well, and if he'd been bad at it, he would've been fired long before he reached that position.

People are complaining about the American corporate media as a whole when they complain about Tim Russert. He was a perfect example of what it does.

This is like defending Newt Gingrich by saying, "I'd like to see you do a better job as Republican Speaker of the House". None of us could do a better job at that. None of us would want to.

[HEyHEY]

134. You know

It's so funny how you people will suck off Keith Olbermann and then talk about Russert having a "job" to promote corporate interests... they have the SAME FUCKING BOSSES!!!!!!

[riderinthestorm]

136. Give me a fucking break!

You really think KO is compensated the same as Russert was? In perks, $$, access, appearances - Russert was promoted, petted, supersized while KO is... allowed.

KO's surprising popularity is probably pissing off GE no end but $$ trumps all so he's enduring but I am damn sure that if you stacked up KO's compensation vs. Russert's it would be obvious there was nothing the same about what they got from their boss.

[HEyHEY]

143. What were their salaries?

[riderinthestorm]

157. A quick Google search

has Slate reporting that Keith's salary is something in the range of $4 mil over 4 years. Tim Russert's salary is in the neighborhood of $5 mil per year. And there's the special guest appearances that Russert was doing (instead of Keith), plus intangibles like access to movers and shakers that Jack Welch arranged for Russert that Keith could only dream about etc. etc.

But you knew they weren't compensated anything like the same already - it's obvious the way Russert was considered a rainmaker for GE.

[Marr]

140. I'm sorry, who are you talking to?

I said nothing about Keith Olbermann.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

104. Unreal.

Another fucking editorial claiming absolute knowledge. The pomposity is astounding.

[HEyHEY]

108. "editorial claiming absolute knowledge."

That is pretty well what the internet is for. As for being pompous.... can ANYONE talk about their fucking job without someone like you swooping down and calling them pompous? The irony is astounding.

[K Gardner]

105. I missed Russert dodging bullets .

[HEyHEY]

115. It's not about russert as much as it is about asking for some understanding

Russert's head would have been a way too easy target in a hot spot.

[Marr]

129. What does that mean?

[HEyHEY]

133. THe head thing or the other?

What I'm saying is that people need to understand that reporters can't be perfect. It's like any job. You try your absolute best, but, sometimes your work isn't as good as it needs to be. That doesn't mean you're bad at the job, or some kind of agent.

[apocalypsehow]

107. You should see that thread floating around GD right now - the one that assails Russert's

journalistic integrity with an un-sourced "conversation" he supposedly had back in 1992. The amateur "journalists" in that thread refuse to provide credible sources for their assertions, preferring the "he said so" version of "proof." It really is quite amusing.

[HEyHEY]

112. always is

So many of these people would be completely intolerable in person.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

113. Is this a post attacking "seemslikeadream"?

[kath]

119. oh, man, BD12, now we've got these two working in tandem again.

sheesh.

and yeah, methinks your instincts are right.

[HEyHEY]

121. I wish you to be kicked by a duck

[gulfcoastliberal]

124. delete

nevermind

[HEyHEY]

125. Um, she isn't exactly saying he's a bastard the way you people are.

[Marr]

126. Your naivete is charming.

There are no "journalists" in the corporate media-- certainly not in positions as high as Russert's, at least. Tim Russert ran a corporate political opinion show, where he invited guests ranging from establishment Democrats to fascist Republicans to interpret the news each week. Every week, he presented 'The World According to GM'. It's not a pretty thing to say, but it's the truth.

You say it's bad taste to criticize Russert now, I assume because he's just died. I say it's sickening to saint someone simply because they've stopped breathing. Mourn the man if you choose to. But don't mourn the loss of a journalist, because the world hasn't lost one.

[HEyHEY]

127. NIave?

I work in the corporate media. ANd we bust more stories than sad-ass bloggers pretending to be reporters.

[Marr]

128. Yes, naive.

Please, if you're that good a journalist-- come down to America and bust those stories through our corporate media for us. I'm sure you'll go straight to the top.

[HEyHEY]

132. I actually would love to

It's way easier to be a reporter in the USA because Americans actually talk to you. Up here it's harder than shit to get anyone to say anything.

ANyway, Niave I am not sir... there's two people in this convo, one of them actually WORKS in the industry.

[Marr]

138. I know-- you've mentioned that about 80 times now.

You have no idea what anyone else in this thread does for a living. Some of us don't feel the need to write it on our foreheads.

And in the interest of accuracy, I'm sorry but you don't do what Russert did. I mean let's be honest-- this is like a local auto mechanic critiquing Lee Iacocca's management of Chrysler.

[Iggo]

137. Yep...

...any asshole with a PC, right HEyHEy?

Here's lookin' at you, kid...;-)

[Neshanic]

139. Last time I looked, nothing needs to be filed to report the truth.

Russert was the odd "tweener" between the old network regime and the new MSM. He happily complied to become the whore they needed.

[mokawanis]

141. What the hell

I have to go get a degree in journalism and work in the field for years before I can criticize people like Russert or media in general? That's total nonsense. Imo Russert did an ok job some of the time but overall I give him poor marks and don't think he really contributed much. I've never held political office but I feel entirely comfortable and heaping scorn on some of the assholes who get elected and then do a shitty job.

As for your negative remarks about bloggers, I would agree most blogging isn't worth the time it takes to read it but there is some very good coverage out there, David Sirota, Digby, some Kos writers, among others, who provide detailed reporting that provides way more insight than you will ever find with MSM, and I still think it's entirely fair and accurate to say mainstream media sucks big time.

[HEyHEY]

145. You guys are so funny

This is the best most of you can come up with "So what if I'm not a reporter" I'm not saying you can't have an opinion. I'm saying you should try to be a lil more objective in your critiques....

MSM sucks? Well all your little blogs and shit get their stories from us then just ad some sad slant to it.

[demobabe]

149. Uh, hello?

Most of the "Corporate Media" gets their news from AP and Reuters feeds.

Why do they do this? Because they no longer fund investigative reporters going into the field.

So the "little blogs and shit" get their news from the same sources YOU DO, and many of them do serious hard core reporting and invest time and investigate things that NO mainstream press dare touch.

If you remember the Libby hearings, they allowed TWO reporters into the room. One was from a MSM publication, and the other was from the weblog Firedoglake.com. More and more, representatives from blogs are being allowed into the same events with full press credentials as the Corporate Media. I've done work for both.

Sure there are a lot of crappy blogs out there, but there are some great ones, too, and the best of them incorporate and encourage their readers to participate, unlike the Corporate Media.

This whole "I'm better than you cause I'm a Corporate media" attitude is extremely arrogant and plain old insulting to the members of the DU who have every right to be here and express their opinion as you do.

So don't go whacking the bees' nest and then come moaning about it here when they sting you. Give respect to the others here and get down off your high horse. There are plenty of other media professionals here, and you're out of line.

[HEyHEY]

154. AP is MSM

"This whole "I'm better than you cause I'm a Corporate media" attitude is extremely arrogant and plain old insulting to the members of the DU who have every right to be here and express their opinion as you do."

- Then you tell me I'm out of line? Methinks not. I have a right to express my opinion and I did so..


Also AP and CP and crap are not investigative reporters. They are there as a function you get it from them when you can't send someone.

The difference between a blogger and a reporter is that decision makers actually CALL reporters back. ANd I am sick of the "I'm better than you cause I'm a blogger" SHit I hear.

[demobabe]

173. Geez...

You already know everything there is to know in the world, so I'm not going to bother talking to you anymore.

Nifty how you accuse bloggers of exactly what you do... whatever works for you, man.

Have fun dodging those bullets on the front line in Canada while you're filing your FOI requests.

Peace out.

[Joe Fields]

142. "And no one, NO ONE on this site could have done better."

If you work for NBC, you wouldn't be allowed to do any better.

They told him what they wanted and he gave it to them. Do I call it good journalism? No. I call it being a good employee.

As for being called a know it all; I don't know it all, but I was a photojournalist for two daily metropolitan newspapers. I know what it takes to get a story. I also know that, if you are to be a major player in the beltway, you have to play by the power elite's rules. Otherwise you don't play, and so that means not pursuing certain people or certain stories.

[hellbound-liberal]

144. Hey Joe! Nice to see you back!

Was it all this Russert coverage that did it? Anyway, glad to see you back. You've been missed!:hi:

[Joe Fields]

147. Hi, irk!

Actually, it was the hubbub surrounding Kucinich's introduction of the articles of impeachment that brought me back. The Russert coverage? As always, it is interesting around here when a famous person dies. How have you been?

[Jakes Progress]

146. We differ.

I'm not here to attack the recently deceased, but to complain about how he has become the story of the day, the big deal, the story to push all real stories off the page. I could go along with sorry to see him go, seemed like a nice guy, worked for a long time in Washington. etc.

But he was not the greatest journalist ever to grace the world. That is how he is being portrayed by a fraternity of Washington insiders who are celebrating themselves. I kind of go along with the more moderate "attacks" of where was the 72 hour non stop coverage for Molly Ivins or Peter Jennings? Will they give this coverage to Helen Thomas or Bill Moyers or Paul Burka? Bet not.

For the record I do know about being a journalist. Made a living at it for a while and taught it for a while. Still have offers. Being a journalist is not the same as being a talking head. Talking head is okay for a job. Someone's gotta do it. But it's not journalism.

Sorry for his family, but just like anyone in the limelight, he will be the target for the same kind of laud and criticism as any one of a thousand people he commented on.

[Dark]

150. I worked at a now defunct newspaper for about 8 months til it closed.

Right now, I'm a jou student, and the editor in chief of the school paper.

And everything you said is right on the money. Happy to kick and recommend.

Honestly, I've wanted to say the same things here, but I really didn't want to put up with all the bullshit hating that would come along with it. (plus I didn't have the time.)

Keep fighting the good fight.

[gatorboy]

156. Tim use to dodge bullets?

Granted he was working in New York, but... :shrug:

[JVS]

160. I've observed this whole thing from afar for two reasons.

1. I'm not in the USA right now, which means I'm not seeing it constantly on TV as some of the other posters seem to be complaining about.

2. I have had little desire to bother click on a 400 post thread about Russert's death. I like my flamewars more interesting.

I'd like to make a couple comments though.

My experience with our news media is that they really take themselves very seriously and often think they are the story. You could see it during the primaries. If there was a slow news cycle, they might decide to start talking about how the media is reporting the election. Or when Peter Jennings died. Sad, yes, but the amount of time they spend praising their deceased co-worker is excessive and abusing the fact that they have control of what the public gets to hear.

Also, I wonder if there might not be a difference between a journalist and a TV news anchor. Most of the stories he read were fed to him, not researched by him, no?

[HEyHEY]

161. On that I agree

I don't think it deserves the attention it has recieved. My bitch is just with all these people slamming some dead guy because in their opinion he didn't do his job. WHen, in reality, most of those slamming the guy have no idea what the job entails. So, I'm asking them to consider a few things before they shoot their mouths off. But, sadly, here you can't tell anyone anything cause they all know everything.

[JVS]

163. I'd be (and I am) more tolerant of their badmouthing Russet. I think it's a natural reaction.

people got fed up with hearing excessive hagiographic commentary about Tim. So they're fed up, they already have some latent resentment of a media they distrust, and finally they say "This is bullshit. Not only is he not worthy of all this fawining, but now I'm going to vent my spleen at him" If we had a week of nothing but Bob Ross on TV, people would get sick of it and start bashing him too.

[demobabe]

183. Hm, maybe I was ignoring a lot of the threads

I didn't get that a lot of people were saying that Russert didn't do his job. But then, I could have dismissed those threads out of hand as not worth any reply...

MY bitch, and I thought was a good deal of the sentiment here, was the problem of Russert being a safe harbor for Dick Cheney and refusing to testify during the Plame scandal until he was ultimately forced to. Russert was one of the ones who had the information about Plame early on, and if you think about it, he probably could have exposed this and kept the US from going to war in Iraq.

Clearly, Russert was very good at his job - I don't think anybody can get to that kind of position without experience and brains.

But then again, I thought the same about being President of the US (but that was due to lineage).

[JackRiddler]

164. "How to talk to slimy PR creeps paid twice what you make for the job of lying to you"

So does this mean you've met Russert? Do you really make half his salary, or are you bragging?

[HEyHEY]

165. what the hell was his salary anyway?

Maybe it's old fashioned. But up here the 24-hour news network guys don't make that much. Nightly national newscasts are still the biggies.

[JackRiddler]

166. What, you need to crowd-source now?

It's called google, though I don't have a definitive answer this will have to do. You no doubt have ways of finding out yourself if you care.

http://www.slate.com/id/2158157/entry/2159271/

2:41 p.m.: Defense attorney Ted Wells begins cross-examining Russert. "Is it fair to say you're a valuable asset to the NBC network?" he asks. Russert, stone-faced, says, "I hope so." Next Wells asks if it's true that Meet the Press brings in more than $50 million in profits to NBC each year. (Russert isn't sure, but it sounds plausible.) Then Wells asks if it's true that Russert's salary is more than $5 million a year. This meets with an instant objection from Fitzgerald, and Russert doesn't have to answer. (The figure, true or not, certainly has a "chilling effect" on the lesser-paid reporters filling the courtroom.)

---

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/13/AR2008061303865.html?nav=hcmodule

Even worshipful colleagues recalled yesterday that Russert commanded a large salary and made sure he had friends in all the front offices, both in the news division and on the corporate side. His current contract had been extended through 2012, and Russert was hardly the type to be contemplating retirement when that year rolled around. The story of his life always seemed his to write, the tale his to tell, and so it is that his premature departure is almost obscene, certainly absurd, unimaginable. He had the energy and drive of a hundred novices and cub reporters.

A hundred! No over-the-top deification happening there, eh?

Why did Judy Miller get the short end? Her eventual demise is going to prompt a lot of low-key tut-tutting at her lies.

[HEyHEY]

167. Man, you're a snotty cuss, aren't you?

Sorry, you talked like you knew his salary, so I thought I'd ask.. fucking PARDON ME

[deaniac21]

178. Journalists are a dime a dozen.

[w8liftinglady]

180. I do

I know how it feels to have everyone against you

[Dastard Stepchild]

181. I get it.

I am a social science researcher. That list above is similar to the tasks that fall under my job description as well. People criticize PhDs for being hot air windbags and some are, but so many more are just trying to do good work and share information. Google has convinced everyone that they are great researchers, too. :)

[readmoreoften]

182. No one... except Dan Rather who was fired? Except Helen Thomas?

Except Bill Moyers? Except the people who have done better?

Death doesn't exempt anyone from criticism.