TORTURE HEARINGS NOW on CSpan 3

[annabanana]

Senate Aremed Services Committee

http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan3_wm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS3

[annabanana]

1. (I won't be able to live-blog it - Will anyone be around for

the next hour or so?)

[bdamomma]

2. watching now.

again these guys are the panel are just going to sham these Senators. Haven't we all gotten use to these panels of giving no answers.

[Solly Mack]

3. I just tuned in.. asking Baumgartner about SERE training

and how it became a blueprint for some of the torture...oh, my bad....they're calling torture - "interrogations" and "aggressive interrogation techniques"

but I won't be able to keep a running commentary on it....in and out of the room too much


Baumgartner, retired LTC, former Chief of Staff, Joint Personnel Recovery Agency

[Solly Mack]

4. Jerald Ogrisseg, psychologist, armed services survival training, former

also testifying...

[Solly Mack]

5. I keep trying to catch the third man's name. Anyone?

[Solly Mack]

6. Nelson (Fl -D), asking Ogrisseg about sleep deprivation

Ogrisseg worked for the Air Force, btw.

[bdamomma]

7. oh it's the same ole crap.

how many times are these senators going to hear about this subject before they do something.

[Solly Mack]

8. Pretty much...yes

lot of talk..lot of double-talk...lot of careful word choices...amounting to...well, nothing

[slipslidingaway]

9. Mr. Richard L. Shiffrin ??? Link below

http://armed-services.senate.gov/e_witnesslist.cfm?id=3413

There will be a meeting of the Committee on


ARMED SERVICES

Tuesday, June 17, 2008

9:30 AM

Room SD-106, Dirksen Senate Office Building

OPEN

To receive testimony on the origins of aggressive interrogation techniques: Part I of the
Committee's inquiry into the treatment of detainees in U.S. custody

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PANEL 1

Mr. Richard L. Shiffrin

Former Deputy General Counsel for Intelligence
Department of Defense

Lieutenant Colonel Daniel J. Baumgartner, Jr., USAF (Ret.)

Former Chief of Staff
Joint Personnel Recovery Agency

Dr. Jerald F. Ogrisseg

Former Chief, Psychology Services
336th Training Group
United States Air Force Survival School


PANEL 2

Mr. Alberto J. Mora

Former General Counsel
United States Navy

Rear Admiral Jane G. Dalton, USN (Ret.)

Former Legal Advisor to the Chairman
Joint Chiefs of Staff

Lieutenant Colonel Diane E. Beaver, USA (Ret.)

Former Staff Judge Advocate
Joint Task Force 170/JTF Guantanamo Bay


PANEL 3

Mr. William J. Haynes II

Former General Counsel
Department of Defense

[Solly Mack]

11. That's it! Thank you!!!!!

[slipslidingaway]

12. YW and thanks to you and annabanana for the thread, although

I too believe we've been here before and think they are just delaying and tossing a few bread crumbs.

[Solly Mack]

14. I'm getting that feeling too

[malaise]

10. Thanks n/t

[Solly Mack]

13. the gist of this panel is to establish that SERE is NOT "offensive"

meaning - incorporating SEREs into "interrogations" was never intended to take place


Baumgartner is claiming "not a legal expert" to comment on whether or not they should have been incorporated..in answer to Pryor..not even if it was moral (couldn't comment on that either)

Baumgartner did admit that SERE training is a simulation of a country "not adhering to the Geneva Conventions)

[slipslidingaway]

15. Jack Reed, excellent question n/t

[Solly Mack]

16. Missed it...had to step out for a moment

[slipslidingaway]

18. 'If the training was to help our soldiers resist techniques that

may violate the Geneva Conventions why did we incorporate these techniques into our interrogation?'

[Solly Mack]

17. blech...Sessions

[Solly Mack]

21. Someone smack Sessions. I say it's legal to knock the shit out of him.

And everyone knows if you say something is legal then you can't get in trouble for breaking laws.

[Ichingcarpenter]

19. U.S. abuse of detainees was routine at Afghanistan bases

KABUL, Afghanistan — American soldiers herded the detainees into holding pens of razor-sharp concertina wire, the kind that's used to corral livestock.

The guards kicked, kneed and punched many of the men until they collapsed in pain. U.S. troops shackled and dragged other detainees to small isolation rooms, then hung them by their wrists from chains dangling from the wire mesh ceiling.

Former guards and detainees whom McClatchy interviewed said Bagram was a center of systematic brutality for at least 20 months, starting in late 2001. Yet the soldiers responsible have escaped serious punishment.

The brutality at Bagram peaked in December 2002, when U.S. soldiers beat two Afghan detainees, Habibullah and Dilawar, to death as they hung by their wrists.

Dilawar died on Dec. 10, seven days after Habibullah died. He'd been hit in his leg so many times that the tissue was "falling apart" and had "basically been pulpified," said then-Lt. Col. Elizabeth Rouse, the Air Force medical examiner who performed the autopsy on him.

Had Dilawar lived, Rouse said in sworn testimony, "I believe the injury to the legs are so extensive that it would have required amputation."

After Habibullah died, a legal officer for U.S. forces in Afghanistan asked two military police guards at Bagram to demonstrate how they'd chained detainees' wrists above their heads in a small plywood isolation cell.

"Frankly, it didn't look good," Maj. Jeff Bovarnick, the legal adviser for the Bagram detention center from November 2002 to June 2003, said during a military investigation hearing in June 2005.

"This guy is chained up and has a hood on his head," Bovarnick continued. "The two MPs that were demonstrating this took about five minutes to get everything hook(ed) up; and I was thinking to myself, if this was a combative detainee, it must have been a real struggle for them to get him to comply, and the things they must have been doing to make him comply."



http://www.mcclatchydc.com/detainees/story/38775.html

[Ichingcarpenter]

20. Just wanted to support the thread-McClatchy Newspapers has another article

Wrongly jailed detainees found militancy at Guantanamo

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/259/story/38779.html

It seems the hearings are just a bunch of crap considering the evidence that is out there.

[slipslidingaway]

22. Agree and thanks n/t

[Solly Mack]

23. Seriously? That piece of shit is really going with that?

Everything Hitler did was legal too...under German law. How did that pan out in the end?

[Solly Mack]

24. "immunity in advance"

[Solly Mack]

28. and what such a phrase implies...

I'm seriously not liking Shiffrin

[MiniMe]

25. Sorry Anna, didn't see your thread before I started another one

[annabanana]

29. (I'm not really here and cannot be relied on). . .n/t

[Solly Mack]

31. Nonsense. In fact, I'm relying on you now

:)

[annabanana]

26. just popped in .. "immunity in advance" is a crime..

McCaskill is making the guy VERY uncomfortable...

[Ian_walker]

188. So contractor immunity in Iraq must be illegal

Interesting.

[MiniMe]

27. Go Claire!!!

[Solly Mack]

30. ut oh...now they're having "recollections"

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

32. This is the first time when I have really LIKED McCaskill!!!!

[Solly Mack]

33. Gee..I have an idea...start with Bush and work your way down

If you really want to hold someone responsible

[MiniMe]

34. They seem to be having trouble answering the questions now

They are trying to answer without saying too much. This is a good hearing, it is turning out much better than the judiciary one.

[slipslidingaway]

35. Immunity in advance...2005 article by Marty Lederman

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:pDc1nH6QFbcJ:www.acsblog.org/international-affairs-marty-lederman-gtmo-where-was-the-law-whither-the-ucmj.html+Immunity+in+advance+%2B+interrogation+techniques&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us


"One of the more interesting, and disheartening, things about the interrogation of Mohammed al-Qahtani at Guantanamo in 2002-2003 -- the official log of which is examined in detail in this week's Time Magazine -- is that the military appears to have been fully aware that the techniques it was employing were unlawful. The Pentagon's efforts to provide legal justification for its activities are quite revealing...

Frustrated that detainees at GTMO, especially al-Qahtani, "have tenaciously resisted our current interrogation methods," on October 25, 2002 General James Hill forwarded to the Pentagon, for its review, proposed "counter-resistance techniques." Although General Hill was "uncertain whether all the techniques . . . are legal under US law," he expressed his "desire to have as many options as possible at my disposal and therefore request that Department of Defense and Department of Justice lawyers review" some of the techniques...

In an extensive legal memorandum appended to Major Hill's request, Staff Judge Advocate Diane Beaver acknowledged the problem posed by the UCMJ...

Well, then, if some of the proposed techniques are acknowledged to be "per se" federal crimes, how is it that Beaver can then recommend their use and (in a cover memo) conclude that they "do not violate applicable federal law"? Here's the only clue: She writes that because of the "per se" prohibitions of the UCMJ, "t would be advisable to have permission or immunity in advance from the convening authority, for military members utilizing these methods." No explanation here of the legal theory pursuant to which such ex ante "permission or immunity" to violate the law could be conferred.

As Beaver's memo went up the chain of command, it appears that virtually everyone (with the possible exception of General Hill, who expressed some legal trepidation) agreed with Beaver's conclusion that the UCMJ somehow would be no obstacle -- perhaps because they assumed that interrogators would be provided some sort of "permission or immunity in advance from the convening authority." Major General Michael Dunleavy concluded "that these techniques do not violate U.S. or international laws." Similarly, DoD General Counsel Haynes, following discussions with Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz, Doug Feith and General Myers, informed Secretary Rumsfeld that all of the proposed techniques "may be legally available." (Haynes also advised that, for policy reasons, "a blanket approval" of waterboarding and threats of death "is not warranted at this time.")

[Solly Mack]

36. GAG...came back in time for..IT

[tishaLA]

37. honestly. he's a shanda fer de goyim

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

38. ......

:rofl:

[Solly Mack]

41. lolololol

[MiniMe]

39. Second Panel starting

[slipslidingaway]

40. Second panel participants...

http://armed-services.senate.gov/e_witnesslist.cfm?id=3413

PANEL 2

Mr. Alberto J. Mora

Former General Counsel
United States Navy

Rear Admiral Jane G. Dalton, USN (Ret.)

Former Legal Advisor to the Chairman
Joint Chiefs of Staff

Lieutenant Colonel Diane E. Beaver, USA (Ret.)

Former Staff Judge Advocate
Joint Task Force 170/JTF Guantanamo Bay

[Solly Mack]

42. Good. Back for a few. Thanks!!

[slipslidingaway]

43. Updated article... Marty Lederman with details on Diane Beaver

How Did the Department of Defense Decide to Authorize Torture, Cruel Treatment, and Violations of the Uniform Code of Military Justice?

Tuesday, June 17, 2008

http://balkin.blogspot.com/2008/06/how-did-department-of-defense-decide-to.html

Marty Lederman

"The Senate Armed Services Committee is currently holding a hearing addressing that very question. The Committee has released several new, important documents relating to the question.

In late 2002, interrogators at GTMO were growing increasingly frustrated that certain detainees, especially Mohammad al-Qahtani, would not provide them with the sort of actionable intelligence they were hoping for. On September 25, 2002, David Addington, Jim Haynes, John Rizzo (Acting CIA General Counsel, Michael Chertoff, and others, visited GTMO and consulted with officials there about interrogations.

The next week, on October 2d, those officials met to review "Counter Resistance Strategy," at a meeting in which they contemplated the use of the aggressive "SERE" techniques. When Col. Cummings noted that they could not use sleep deprivation, Diane Beaver, a Staff Judge Advocate for the Joint Task Force 170/JTF, Guantanamo Bay, responded "Yes, we can -- with approval." Beaver noted that "we may need to curb the harsher operations while ICRC is around. Dave Becker noted that they had "many reports" of sleep deprivation being used at Bagram, in Afghanistan. Beaver's response?: "True, but officially it is not happening. It is not being reported officially. The ICRC is a serious concern." Cummings noted that the new Pysh Op plan had already been passed up the chain, and John Fredman added that "DOJ has provided much guidance on this issue." Fredman then basically describes the August 2002 OLC torture memo in detail. It was obviously known to these officials.

Then there was a discussion about whether to videotape the interrogation sessions. Beaver responded in the negative: "Videotapes are subject to too much scrutiny in court."

On October 11th, Beaver wrote her famous memo recommending the use of the enhanced techniques..."

[Solly Mack]

44. Thanks for adding that!

She sure dressed the kindly grandmother today didn't she?

[slipslidingaway]

45. Yes lol...from Cooperative Research... Profile: Diane E. Beaver

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?entity=diane_e._beaver


For reference, I think this is the memo they are speaking of...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/policy/dod/d20040622doc3.pdf

[Hubert Flottz]

46. I can't help but think of Ilse Koch

[Solly Mack]

47. She does give off the vibe of a hard ass doesn't she?

Can see right through the "You can't send Mom to jail! dress of them both

[Solly Mack]

48. It wasn't me. I didn't do it. I wasn't even born when that happened.

[Solly Mack]

49. Oooh..so you interrogated a person for 6 weeks straight then?

since you couldn't let the ICRC see that detainee least your interrogation get interuppted...even though the ICRC was there for 6 weeks?

[Solly Mack]

50. You fucking liar..you're a judge advocate...you KNOW the UCMJ

[Solly Mack]

51. I have to go for now.

I'll check back later.

Thanks everyone!!!

[bdamomma]

52. Senator Reed is up now.

more BS from this panel. I don't recall??? the normal response huh?

how can a person not recall issues about torture interrogations? this lady Dalton is kind of confused isn't she?

[pleah]

53. Thank you for these posts. I can't get CSpan 3.

Thanks again!

[bdamomma]

54. McCaskill is fuming!!

removal of clothing, removal of clothing........Dalton and Beaver are saying it did not happen at Gitmo

My opinion, what total BS it is written in black and white.

very good questioning going on.

[bdamomma]

55. Ugh, Lindsay up now.

this lady Beaver, would wear Khaki very well with a little emblem on the sleeve.

[pberq]

58. Lindsay actually asked some questions

[bdamomma]

56. this is disgusting we should not even be talking about torture or techniques

this will haunt us forever.

[pberq]

57. Sen. Levin asking some tough questions of lawyer

"Were you troubled when military lawyers raised major concerns?"

[Solly Mack]

59. Back. What did I miss?

[Solly Mack]

60. Beaver is unreal

and all too real

[Hubert Flottz]

61. I'll bet the Nazis "Didn't Recall" either...

Selective memory malfunction seems to be going around in the Crony Corps...

[bdamomma]

62. what happened the questions getting to hard for Beaver.

Claire McCaskill doing what she was elected to do.

they are all involved in criminal activities, all of them.

[Solly Mack]

63. a good collegial discussion on torture

my my my

[Solly Mack]

64. lololol Beaver is flustered

[Solly Mack]

65. She's stupid. Levin is giving her the chance to retract her bullshit

and she's not catching on

[Hubert Flottz]

67. Picture these boobs under fire from in an international war crimes

tribunal.

[bdamomma]

66. and just think that slimy rumsfeld is still running around free?

shameful.

[Solly Mack]

68. Graham is so full of shit it's a wonder he doesn't have flies for groupies

[bdamomma]

71. as Sam Seder used to say, close that closet door.

[Solly Mack]

69. Currently breaking for a vote

[EFerrari]

70. Speaking of waterboarding, one of the earliest instances of this

comes out of the South, I learned over the weekend on BookTv, where it was used to punish black prisoners who were used for workers.

[bdamomma]

72. I wish this was Biden's committee.

[Solly Mack]

73. Haynes up now. 3rd panel

[Solly Mack]

74. Haynes claiming he doesn't have an opening statement by making an opening statement

[Solly Mack]

75. He's using the tactic of praising the hearing and those "years to come"

of reviewing how America defended itself from the threats, etc.

In other words....he's claiming he believes the hearings are good, that he has done nothing wrong, and it's all just about democracy and getting things right

[libnnc]

76. "my memory is not perfect..."

Smart assed little fucker, ain't he?

[Solly Mack]

77. He got in his I don't recalls with that one

[bdamomma]

78. they will all be saying this.

but again, they have been saying this right along "I don't recall" "I don't recollect" that is what bushie is counting on.

Oh these guys or this guy is so full of it. They are up to this stuff to their eyeballs.

[Hubert Flottz]

83. About 20 years hard labor would give him time to reflect

[Solly Mack]

79. lol damn...not 5 minutes in with Haynes and my head starts to hurt

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

80. lol!!!! Mine too!!!!!

[Solly Mack]

84. he must give off some sort of neurological toxin

that can come through TV screens and monitors...

or maybe it's just his voice and the bullshit coming out of his mouth

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

185. And Shrub makes my stomach clench. I literally get sick to my stomach when I feel I have to

force myself to listen to him.

:puke:

[libnnc]

81. "...again, 6 years ago is a long time...can't recall..."

I hate these motherfuckers

[Solly Mack]

82. another version of too long ago to remember

Just like the Beaver

[Hubert Flottz]

86. Now I know why they haven't caught Bin Laden

They've forgotten all about him...

[Solly Mack]

89. lol!

[libnnc]

88. Haynes..."I don't remember doing something with this information..."

WTF does that mean?

Did you jerk off on it?

Did you fold it into a paper air plane?

Did you wipe your ass with it?

Did you READ IT?

[bdamomma]

85. oh, throw him off the panel.

what total BS. Why is it ok to not recall something, what total BS, Levin is being too obliging to him.

[Solly Mack]

87. lololol my recollection

Gonzales must have a school of recollections and they've all attended

[Solly Mack]

90. my memory is not great....besides, that's classified

LMAO

What a liar

[libnnc]

I don't remember it

But I've seen it and it's super secret squirrel info

[Solly Mack]

91. smack him....help him to remember

[Solly Mack]

92. Yo, Levin...he's telling you to fuck off

[Solly Mack]

93. Haynes is a comedian

[Solly Mack]

94. He knows nothing...nothing

[bdamomma]

95. they are all accomplices and enablers to these techniques.

they know they have been involved in WAR CRIMES.

[Solly Mack]

96. Graham is offering him an easy way out right now

Later, of course, he won't remember again

[bdamomma]

100. oh this guy is so full of it.

get those who have been tortured and have them testify, if they are still alive. or get those soldiers who did this to those detainees.

[Solly Mack]

97. Haynes...he's just misunderstood

people just misunderstand what happened

[Sydnie]

98. You can tell Haynes is a lawyer!

Didn't know anything about anything ... EVER!

[Solly Mack]

99. Seriously..allow this trash to go free and never again tell me how great America is

'Cause I'm just going to snicker in derision

[libnnc]

101. I think Senor Haynes should be subjected

to some stress positions and dogs snapping at his nads.

He's being very uncooperative in his answers.

[bdamomma]

106. stress positions yea, I can agree with that.

again his memory is not perfect, what an arrogant POS.

[bdamomma]

102. McCaskill up

[Solly Mack]

103. Oh, he can remember numbers

[Solly Mack]

104. bet his memory goes again

[Solly Mack]

105. LMAO and there it goes

[bdamomma]

108. understand how the department works

what an arrogant POS this man is. Oh, he is nothing but another bush loyalist.

[Solly Mack]

107. How can they sit there and not want to smack this man?

[bdamomma]

110. oh he is arrogant but what else is new.

[Solly Mack]

111. Somebody would have to grab my leg is all I'm saying

[Solly Mack]

109. wow..he's an idiot savant!! can recall numbers in an instant

[Hubert Flottz]

116. How does a man with a memory like that finish law school or even

grade school?

[Solly Mack]

119. It's a miracle!

snicker

[Hubert Flottz]

124. I'm not a lawyer, but I KNOW I could make this man look like the

liar he really is...

I'd test his memory by asking him several softball seeming questions about where and when he went to law school and his grades in school and then I'd ask him if he can remember these little things that happened years ago, then why can he not recall something as important as the authorization of the torture of POWs.

[EFerrari]

112. Everyone involved in this hearing should die from shame.

We've known about our torture policy for more than five years.

:puke:

[Solly Mack]

114. Bless you. I was sitting here thinking the same thing

It's unreal

[EFerrari]

118. Their phone number: 202 224-3871

It would be ridiculous if it weren't so nauseating.

[Solly Mack]

113. The man is actually praising the rule of law and due process

[Solly Mack]

115. I'm not an expert.....lololol that's his excuse

[Solly Mack]

117. Oh fucking bother with 911...what a bullshit excuse for torturing people

[Solly Mack]

120. it's the 911 changed everything defense

[Solly Mack]

121. Do America a favor...arrest that fucker now

[Solly Mack]

122. you get the impression because it's TRUE you piece of shit

you war crime enabler

[Solly Mack]

123. Am I the only idiot still watching?

[libnnc]

125. this idiot is still here

and I'm sick to my stomach

[Solly Mack]

127. Yeah...it's kind of a farce

that's the sickening part for me

We already know they torture and we already know it came from "on high"

[Hubert Flottz]

126. This dude is as big a liar and idiot as Brownie...

oops

[Solly Mack]

130. Oh, he's a worse liar

this man can't breathe from lying

[EFerrari]

128. I'm streaming it and forcing me to listen and watch.

:puke:

[Solly Mack]

129. It's sheer will at this point...

witness to it all and all that

[pberq]

133. still watching - unbelievable!

Reed is asking some great questions - calling Haynes on his BS

[Solly Mack]

135. and as Haynes is nothing but bovine caca

[Solly Mack]

131. Yeah..that's my memo...and I'm soooo proud of it

[Solly Mack]

132. lolololol I'm not the decision maker...I just gave the advice on what decision to make

[pberq]

134. So bring in Rummy for questioning

[Hubert Flottz]

136. Jeff sounds GREAT

with the mute button on!

[slipslidingaway]

137. Just came back, Sessions quoting from the same book as before

[Sydnie]

138. Let's waterboard Haynes and see if he still thinks he did his best

to look at the legal aspect of these actions.

[pberq]

139. Sen. Reed blasted Haynes at the end of his questions

Said that he degraded the U. S. military by sending them this decision without any conditions.

[Solly Mack]

140. fair and objective torture?

[libnnc]

143. they zap both nads

instead of just one.

[Solly Mack]

145. Oh well..see...now that explains it

[slipslidingaway]

141. Haynes...Chief Corporate Counsel at the Chevron Corporate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Haynes,_II

"...In 2006, Haynes was nominated by President George W. Bush to the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit in Richmond, Virginia. His nomination drew strong opposition from Democrats and even from Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina.<1> In January 2007, Haynes announced that he would withdraw from consideration for nomination to the Court of Appeals.<2>

In February 2008, Haynes resigned from his position as the Defense Department's general counsel.<11> He started his new job as the Chief Corporate Counsel at the Chevron Corporate Office in San Ramon, CA on April 28, 2008."

[Solly Mack]

142. keep them healthy, safe, and secure for torture?

[Solly Mack]

144. Unfuckingreal

Someone jail Sessions for spoon-feeding a war criminal

[Solly Mack]

146. Do these morons think by claiming it's worse in federal prison that somehow it's all better?

Just means the federal prisons need to be overhauled...

[Hubert Flottz]

148. Senator Pyle is up now!

Shazzzzzzaaaammm

[Solly Mack]

147. I'm sure Bush is reaching for a cigarette after Sessions' words

they just had hearing sex

[Solly Mack]

149. so no one intended to torture..it just happened

like they were walking down the street and the next thing you know... WHAM! - torture...no one saw it coming

[Solly Mack]

150. My passion went into watching 24 for ideas

[Solly Mack]

151. What, precisely, is uncertain, Graham?

[EFerrari]

152. "The entire leadership of the Dept of Defense believed that

the product of the working group led to a really good result."

Noted, you criminal.

:puke:

[Solly Mack]

153. oh bullshit..."at the time" it was illegal as well

[EFerrari]

154. "The law is very clear now."

:puke:

The law was very clear THEN.

[slipslidingaway]

155. Bush admitted killing suspected terrorists in 2003 SOTU address

http://www.chris-floyd.com/content/view/1540/135/

"...There is a good reason for this lack of justice, as McClatchy notes: George W. Bush deliberately created a fog of lawlessness to cover the tortures that he and his top minions – the "National Security Principals" – ordered, with full knowledge that these actions were crimes subject to the death penalty under U.S. law. McClatchy:


In February 2002, President Bush issued an order denying suspected Taliban and al Qaida detainees prisoner-of-war status. He also denied them basic Geneva protections known as Common Article Three, which sets a minimum standard for humane treatment…Bush's order made it hard to prosecute soldiers for breaking such rules under the military's basic law, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, in large part because defense attorneys could claim that troops on the ground didn't know what was allowed.

Under these circumstances, it is indeed a waste of time to try to prosecute the small fry and cannon fodder sent to do the Bush Regime's dirty work. The chief criminal responsibility clearly lies with those in the highest reaches of power who created the gulag system. They have admitted – even bragged – of their detailed knowledge and approval of the systematic tortures practiced, at their orders, in the gulag. Their own legal advisors confirmed that the scheme exposed the "Principals" to prosecution for capital crimes. It is clear beyond dispute that if law exists, then George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld and the other "Principals" have broken...


I ended the 2005 piece on Bush's global death squad with a passage that I've quoted a few times since then. But I want to reference it again here, because I think it captures what is perhaps the quintessence of our times: the bipartisan Establishment rising to applaud an open admission of murder by a lawless leader conducting an endless war of terror, aggression and torture. It was
one of the most revolting scenes in recent American history: Bush's State of the Union address in January 2003, delivered to Congress and televised nationwide during the final frenzy of war-drum beating before the assault on Iraq. Trumpeting his successes in the Terror War, Bush claimed that "more than 3,000 suspected terrorists" had been arrested worldwide – "and many others have met a different fate." His face then took on the characteristic leer, the strange, sickly half-smile it acquires whenever he speaks of killing people: "Let's put it this way. They are no longer a problem."

In other words, the suspects – and even Bush acknowledged they were only suspects – had been murdered.

[Solly Mack]

156. Seriously? Seriously? "What we learned from torture"???????

Seriously? Torture is the learning curve?

[Solly Mack]

157. this isn't some after action review on how to do it better next time you vile piece of shit

America is a war crime nation, complete with a war criminal executive

[Solly Mack]

158. I need more drugs

the legal kind,silly

[Solly Mack]

159. He doesn't recall....and he'll get away with it

[Hubert Flottz]

160. I'll bet this guy failed Study Hall...

My dog could be a lawyer for the BushCo mob.

[Solly Mack]

161. Now the idiot can't even read

[Solly Mack]

162. If I ever commit a crime, I better get off with "I don't remember"

Oh, wait...what am I thinking? I'm one of "the people"

[slipslidingaway]

164. Bush nominated Haynes for US Court of Appeals...you would

be in prison.

"In 2006, Haynes was nominated by President George W. Bush to the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit in Richmond, Virginia."

[Solly Mack]

167. Damn skippy I would be

under the jail even

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

163. Thanks so much for this thread. I don't get C3 and can't stream, for some reason.

:hi: THANKS!!!!

[Solly Mack]

165. lolololol If I didn't see them then I didn't ignore them

I don't recall seeing them...this was six years ago...


lololololololololol

[slipslidingaway]

170. And it was such an insignificant matter n/t

[Solly Mack]

166. Now he doesn't know if he had misgivings

Haynes...clueless about his own mind

[Solly Mack]

168. now his voice is cracking

poor thing....to have to lie for this long in one sitting without breaks

[Hubert Flottz]

169. Senator Huck Hound can't read either.

[Solly Mack]

171. Oooh...so if you're not the first name in the email then it wasn't really sent to you

and you didn't really see it, so people can't claim you did

[libnnc]

173. the magic of the CC

I can't believe I'm watching this sober.

[Solly Mack]

175. I know, right!

I can't believe he's sober

[Sydnie]

174. Bush 43 "The Plausible Deny Ability Years"

:puke:

[Solly Mack]

176. Good one!

but yeah...barf

[Solly Mack]

172. "strike the right balance"????????? with torture?

[Solly Mack]

177. I don't remember what I told you before but you can best frame it as if I'm contradicting myself now

or then...it's all by accident...and besides, I don't remember...it was 6 years ago..and I was CC'ed and not the first name on the email...and well...I just don't remember.

[Solly Mack]

178. He now wants to *remind* everyone...a man that can't remember anything

now wants to remind others

[Solly Mack]

179. He for damn sure can "remember" Rumsfeld's actions almost 6 years ago

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

180. I've been watching this hearing and I must be a masochist. What good is it? How many people

have been held accountable in all of there hearings. Not just this one on torture. Waxman's hearings, Conyer's hearings etc etc etc.

They mean absolutely nothing!!!!!

[Solly Mack]

181. I tell myself I'm a witness...but truly, I must be a glutton for punishment

[Solly Mack]

182. uih..we're still paying the price

and we will continue to pay the price because NO ONE IS BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE

[Hubert Flottz]

186. AND

The longer it takes before anyone is held accountable, the more guilty the entire country looks to the rest of world, IMHO.

[Solly Mack]

187. Oh, I agree... they go free and the country is engaged in protecting war criminals

and that's how the world will see us...ALL of us

[Solly Mack]

183. uh...uh...inadequate? people were tortured....

Hello?

They're called War Crime Trials...

[Solly Mack]

184. It's over...the hearing that is

it's never really over for those tortured...

[Solly Mack]

189. Well, this glutton for punishment thanks everyone for the thread!