Unfortunate Truth: As long as oil isn't damned expensive, we will never transition to renewables.

[dkf]

Sad but true.

Renewables are the way to stop global warming. When I read about peak oil, the only silver lining for me was the fact that we could solve both problems at the same time by going solar, wind, geothermal, and ocean power.

Listening to Bush talk about more drilling and more refiners is making me ill and really really mad.

Having our own solar panels on our own houses will give us independence from utilities, countries with crazies that want to kill us, oil companies and all the rest of those jokers.

But we will never create the scale and infrastructure needed to transition as long as we count on oil.

[Chimichurri]

1. Right on. It's only been recently that i see people around me

making huge lifestyle changes and that's simply because they have to financially.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

2. The added cost should be going to taxes to help pay for investment in renewables NOT

Profits for fat-ass speculators. That's the problem I have with the prices. My money is going straight into their pockets and it burns me up. :grr: This is Enron all over again, but on a much larger scale.

[dkf]

4. They are the stupid ones...

To not invest in renewables will make them irrelevant to the future of our country. Yeah, they will make their money and run, but do you want these creeps to be in charge of our access to renewables? They will create some kind of crazy system that keeps us dependent.

[Carnea]

6. Your right we need to raise gas taxes. NT

[Greyhound]

13. It's you're.

[Carnea]

14. I stand corrected... Damn spellcheck no make me smarter.... nt

[elocs]

3. As long as Americans have inexpensive access to their drug of choice,

why should we kick the habit. We are hooked and as long as there is no incentive to change, we won't.

[The2ndWheel]

5. That's quite the future you paint there

"Having our own solar panels on our own houses will give us independence from utilities, countries with crazies that want to kill us, oil companies and all the rest of those jokers."

What's the catch? There has to be some negative to a world like that.

[dkf]

7. I know...the thought of true energy independence is really really exciting to me!

But the eventual transition will be expensive. Solar technology isn't where we need it to be and there are storage problems too from what I have read. If we use net metering, we will still be tied to our utilities.

But read up on Bush's "ranch". He has a lot of green technology there and at the time it seemed weird to me until I realized he fully understands peak oil and is preparing for the future. That made me very mad indeed. He prepares himself but not the country. ARGH.

[moondust]

8. The U.S. once had a good energy policy.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/carter/filmmore/ps_energy.html

Jimmy Carter delivered this televised speech on April 18, 1977.

~snip~

The tenth principle is that we must start now to develop the new, unconventional sources of energy we will rely on in the next century.

~more~

Then came Big Oil favorites Reagan and Bush I, relatively affordable gasoline, and a return to unsound energy policy including big engines and SUVs for 20+ years. It's depressing to think of what 30 years of Carter's "unconventional" energy R&D might have accomplished if it had been adopted and stuck to.

[glowing]

9. Bullshit... I think people would like to stop putting so much tax money

into fighting wars for oil... I think people recognize that our money is directly going to OPEC. I think people realize, thanks in part to Al Gore, that Climate change is an issue that is not going away. I think people realize all these things. Why isn't legislation making laws about mpg in fuel efficiency? Why isn't the Govt "buying" back people's cars and allowing them to purchase cars, trucks, farm equipment, etc. that would get us off of our "addiction" to foreign oil... which creates terrorists and the subsequent wars... Just think.. if this country had spent the trillions they have on the ME wars, they could have re-built America's infrastructure in a "green" way. They could have mandated all cars or trasport vehicles be at certain emmission levels as a start ... to completely getting off the stuff. They could have given money to each home in America to install Solar Power, wind turbines, or tap into geo-thermal energy to get off the addiction to oil... Instead of using "plastic" bags and plastic stuffs, we could allow hemp to be grown, and cut down on those landfill killers....

There are some major things this country could do to get of oil.... there's no shortage... there are tankers full of oil sitting in the ocean becaues the holding tanks on land are full. Its about the speculation. Its about the big screw, but we do need to switch no matter what.

We need to push for 2 things... Re-regulating the oil industry and use the money collected from taxes and regulations to pay for the alternatives... AND we need to monitor "patent buying"... Its not fair that every inventor who comes up with a really great new model, that the oil pigs find it and push to buy the patent so that they can stick it in a vault and our dependence upon them continues.

AND I understand that some love this gas price increase, but it is causing people to sit still. It causes people to think twice about driving across town to organize or protest. Its causing meals on wheels, a great program for feeding people in this country, to have huge operating problems. Because we do not have the proper infrastructure, the gas increase has caused a major problem for many Americans who were barely making it on $0.99/ gallon. More children are going hungry, more elderly are dying in their homes from heat or cold because they cannot afford the energy, people cannot travel and move and work to fight the evils in Washington. When the person making $7.00/ hour is trying to put $4.00/ gallon in their tank, how do you think they are surviving? So, please have some damn sensitivity for those who are really suffering because of the bullshit of our country... and politicians who care more for themselves and corporate interests.

[dkf]

17. We are running out of oil. This is inevitable. We will all suffer a whole lot more

during this transition.

Have you read up on peak oil? People sitting around not traveling is NOTHING compared to what we are in for.

People who insist we will have enough oil ARE the problem. We haven't discovered enough to replace what we use for YEARS.

[glowing]

23. If we are at the PEAK right now, then we still have time to move off the oil..

soooo, in the meantime, we need to get off the stuff and subsidize a new way of life.... and the oil companies know they aren't running out anytime soon, otherwise, they would have bought up everything this way to Sunday to keep money coming into their pockets...

On the other hand, I have no problem with switching.. But at this time, people are falling onto the streets... they cannot survive... and the insensitivity is absolutely asinine from this board... Have a fucking heart for those who aren't eating because the child is more important.. and yes, that would include myself most days.

[90-percent]

10. ALSO

We should catapult the meme that current high gas prices are due to the Dec 2000 "ENRON LOOPHOLE" that cleared the way for speculators to go on without any form of governmental oversight. I think Phil Gramm engineered this piece of Enron friendly legislation?

To the OP, yes, this current crunch is good as something like this is the only way America will consider renewables - if it's cheaper than oil based energy!

It's amazing how short sighted Detroit has been since 1973! As recently as 5 months ago, land yacht SUV's were all the rage amongst over extended American conspicuous consumers!

-90% jimmy

[90-percent]

11. Historically,

This is also making Jimmy Carter's term look more favorable and the two terms of Reagan and Co. look downright gluttonous and short sighted.

Good for Jimmy! I always like him. (Thanks to early reporting by Hunter Thompson in 1975 in Rolling Stone, I think?)

-90% Jimmy

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

12. Nit to pick

"Renewables are the way to stop global warming."

Depends on the renewable does it not? ethanol is considered a renewable and emits more CO2 than gasoline per unit of energy..

"Having our own solar panels on our own houses will give us independence from utilities"

Yea go to Buffalo NY in the winter and try that, if it ain't buried under snow it would be seeing nothing but gray skies for the 7 hours of daylight per day it gets between late October and may..

[dkf]

15. Well of course the particular renewable you use would fit your area.

I'm in Hawaii so it would work perfectly for me.

And ethanol is the biggest piece of ridiculousness I have EVER seen. Its a joke and using food for energy is morally bankrupt when our grain supplies are so low.

[The2ndWheel]

16. And how is that efficient?

Do you want a global world, or a regional one?

"ethanol is the biggest piece of ridiculousness"

What if in their particular area ethanol works best for them?

[dkf]

19. Think about how much water, fertilizer and other types of

energy to create ethanol. When you examine the inputs, you don't get much more in output energy wise. And you use up water, which is another precious resource.

Maybe if we used something other than corn it might be a little better, but this policy is run out of Iowa as the 1st state to vote, so that ain't gonna happen.

[The2ndWheel]

22. But you don't live in that particular place

How do you get to choose what form of energy they use if corn fits their area the best?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

26. It only fits best 'there' because of subsidies paid for from *everywhere*

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

25. Correction:

"When you examine the inputs, you don't get much more in output energy wise."

Like any fuel (including petroleum) you get less energy out than ever went in.. Oil only gets away because most of the energy used to create it was done by pressure and time, not by man...

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

24. Corn based ethanol does not work in *any area*

Its subsidized by the govt, raising the price of Corn and tied to cost of fuel to river levels in Iowa. Maybe *maybe* if we lifted the tariff on ethanol from Brazil (made from sugar) we might see *some* efficiency but turning what you eat to what you put in your gas tank is fundamentally stupid..

Its especially stupid because the money being used to subsidize it could be researching *real* renewable tech..

[The2ndWheel]

28. Of course it doesn't work

If each particular area is allowed to choose how they'll power their particular area, we're going against thousands of years of momentum. The world would be very different. If the world were very different, it might not be so easy for everyone to put up a high tech solar panel or windmill. Which is why we can't change what we've fundamentally been doing, because if we do, then everyone might not have equal access to resources. If that happens, we have conflict. So, each particular area won't be allowed to choose different ways of doing things.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

29. Depends..

There should be some regional independence, some things work better than others depending where you live. What needs to happen is:

1) The fed publishes a sensible definition of 'renewable' energy
e.g. Tidal, Solar, Wind, Hydro, and *maybe* geo-thermal

2) The fed mandates that any state receiving funds from the EPA, or DOE have a given % of power be renewable
e.g. in 2010 15%
in 2015 20%
in 2020 25%
......

3) Let the states figure out what to do and where within their borders this could include legislation to their power providers, it could include taking it over all together at the state level but lets them be laboratories to shell out different ideas. Hell it could include tax rebates, or public programs to help folks who do put solar or wind on their (grid) homes.

States do many things differently, hell Minnesota already mandates a % of energy be renewable

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/02/minnesota_enact.html

Yet this has not caused a war with Iowa or Wisconsin (Packers / Vikings fans aside)

[dkf]

34. Hawaii now requires all new homes to install solar water heaters.

I saw a new development coming up today when I was driving my sister to the airport and every single danged house had solar panels. It looked quite impressive.

I think anyone in the State of Hawaii would figure out that our best bet here is solar. Of course we also get some nice tradewinds so we could go wind if we wanted to.

[ColbertWatcher]

18. I disagree.

As long as the corporations have control over the resources, renewables will not be possible.

The energy corporations are gaming the entire system, not just the market, but the R&D as well.

What the energy corporations are doing is tantamount to war profiteering.

[dkf]

20. Solar power is being researched by the Tech companies...

and other new companies, not the oil giants.

[ColbertWatcher]

21. Right.

But, when the corporations with the biggest shares of the market don't move, it's going to make it hard for the smaller companies to spend the money on infrastructure and research and development.

Take McDonald's for instance. Until they started using vegetable oil for their french fries, no one else in the industry dared to make the change. It is easier for a smaller company to make the change because they didn't have stores across the entire country. Without legal pressure, any change has to be top-down.

Once McDonald's did make the change, the rest of the industry followed suit.

They also did this with their styrofoam packaging.


The oil giants are holding back the rest of the industry.

[blindpig]

27. Wrong

What you're talking about is still pie in the sky for all but the well off. By all means, continue R&D, but let's deal with the here and now.

The energy sector should be nationalized, that it might be managed for the people and not the plutocrats. Doing so would imply not only providing energy to the people but doing so in the most environmentally resposible manner. A massive revitalization of mass transit and rail is mandantory. Until alternatives can be found gas and heating oil will need to be subsidised for the poor, working class and agriculture. And the Pentagon, which uses 40% of US consumption, need be gutted.

Don't see why we should accept a market bases solution which benefits the rich and hurts the rest of us, they've been getting over all along, let's put the screws to them for a change.

That's what I would call 'change'.

[dkf]

32. We scream bloody murder when Venezuela privatizes their oil.

If we do the same, we give license to every country to do so. Then all our oil companies will no longer have any non US reserves and we will have even less control over worldwide energy than we do now. Instead it will all be owned by everyone we are scared of, Iran, Iraq, Russia, Venezuela and on and on.

The US uses up everyone else's oil. Unless we recognize the contractual rights of oil companies, they are not worth much to us either.

[blindpig]

35. I'm not nearly as scared of Iran, Iraq, etc,

as I am of the rich. They are the ones affecting my life, they are the ones waging war against the people.

[Raksha]

30. I don't believe that. Americans will remember the economic horrors

of 2008 for decades to come, and they will know EXACTLY who to blame. They already do, and they will NEVER allow themselves to be at the "mercy" of Big Oil ever again, even if the price of gas falls back down to $2.00 a gallon or even lower.

I guess we had to learn from painful experience, but we see now that if they are allowed to, the oil companies and speculators can and will destroy the American economy. It's a hard lesson, but it won't soon be forgotten.

[Disturbed]

31. Oil companies and speculators control the Govt. & Congress.

They have us "over a barrel".

[dkf]

33. The price of gas is not going to go down to $2.00 a gallon

It now costs $600,000 dollars a day to rent an oil rig. And to get a new one you are on a waiting list for years.

In addition, the easy oil has been retrieved...now the oil is harder to get to.