The Obama campaign's (Reformed, evangelical) biblical illiteracy is maddening.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

Link (sorry): http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080624/ap_on_el_pr/rel_dobson_obama

Christ, he's going to go up against Dobson, and he brings his silliness about "shellfish"? Come on. Who's working on this campaign. Some of this could see this sort of reaction immediately. Jesus, just quote the Prophets; then they can't do their bullshit, "ahhhhh, well, everything changed with Jesus. Some things apply and some don't. Jesus, don't you know your Bible?"

So here it is, in simple Old Testament (some of us call it the Tanach or the Hebrew Bible):
1. Shout out, do not hold back! Lift up your voice like a trumpet! Announce to my people their rebellion, to the house of Jacob their sins.
2. Yet day after day they seek me and delight to know my ways, as if they were a nation that practiced righteousness and did not forsake the ordinance of their God; they ask of me righteous judgments, they delight to draw near to God.
3. "Why do we fast, but you do not see? Why humble ourselves, but you do not notice?" Look, you serve your own interest on your fast day, and oppress all your workers.
4. Look, you fast only to quarrel and to fight and to strike with a wicked fist. Such fasting as you do today will not make your voice heard on high.
5. Is such the fast that I choose, a day to humble oneself? Is it to bow down the head like a bulrush, and to lie in sackcloth and ashes? Will you call this a fast, a day acceptable to the LORD?
6. Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of injustice, to undo the thongs of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke?
7. Is it not to share your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, to cover them, and not to hide yourself from your own kin?
8. Then your light shall break forth like the dawn, and your healing shall spring up quickly; your vindicator shall go before you, the glory of the LORD shall be your rear guard.
9. Then you shall call, and the LORD will answer; you shall cry for help, and he will say, Here I am. If you remove the yoke from among you, the pointing of the finger, the speaking of evil,
10. if you offer your food to the hungry and satisfy the needs of the afflicted, then your light shall rise in the darkness and your gloom be like the noonday.
11. The LORD will guide you continually, and satisfy your needs in parched places, and make your bones strong; and you shall be like a watered garden, like a spring of water, whose waters never fail.
12. Your ancient ruins shall be rebuilt; you shall raise up the foundations of many generations; you shall be called the repairer of the breach, the restorer of streets to live in.
(Isaiah 58.1-12).

I expect more from this campaign. Evangelicals (and I AM NOT one) will not be won over by biblical REFERENCES. They have more pastors out there than we do. Proof-text wisely.

That is all.

GOBAMA.

[msongs]

1. the bible doesnt sup;port gay marriage and neither do dobsom or obama nt

[TechBear_Seattle]

2. Jesus expressly prohibited divorce; Dobson and Obama have no problem with divorce n/t

[lonestarnot]

8. Not.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

3. the bible doesn't sup;port adultery and neither fo dobsom or obama nt

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

4. the bible doesnt sup;port worshipping graven images and neither do dobsom or obama

O.K., maybe Dobson does: TEH BIBLE!!!!!!!

[JDPriestly]

21. The Bible, interpreted properly, does not prohibit homosexuality.

The prohibition on homosexuality is a misreading and misunderstanding of the Bible.

Bible scholars including Episcopal Bishop Spong (His book is Sins of the Scriptures.) who have studied this say that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah actually condemns inhospitable behavior to visitors or strangers, not homosexual conduct.

In particular, Jesus spoke with tolerance of homosexuals.

Matthew
19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adulter; and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adulter.
19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
19:11 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb; and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

. . .

A Bible expert (evangelical but well educated) spoke at a local meeting on the issue of homosexuality and stated that the word "eunuch" used in the Bible means homosexual.

The speaker pointed out that the first non-Jewish person to be converted to Christianity was apparently an Ethiopian eunuch (the biblical word that included homosexuals).

Acts
8:27 And he 8:28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
8:30 And Philip ran thither to him and heard him read the prophet Esaiah and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
8:32 The place of the Scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaugher; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same Scripture and preached unto him Jesus.
8:36: And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain wataer: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.
8:40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

So neither Jesus nor Philip required that a person be heterosexual or promise not to be homosexual before being baptized as a Christian. The Acts of the Apostles describe the conversion and baptism of a Eunuch who was obviously not heterosexual, but does not condemn his homosexuality or suggest that he should have denied his homosexuality or have changed his condition.

Jesus clearly condemned those who judge the spiritual or moral character of a person by how well that person keeps the rules of society that were set forth in the Old Testament.

Read Matthew 15. The most essential passage is:

Matthew
15:17 Do not ye yet understand that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth out the bely, and is cast out into the draught?
15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
15:20 These are the things which defile a man; but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Dobson and the holier than thou folks on the religious right need to heed the words of Mark

12:38 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing and love salutations in the market places,
12:39 And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts:
12:40 Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers; these shall receive greater damnation.

Dobson is what Jesus called a hypocrite. Dobson prays too loudly and too publicly and brags too much about his spiritual superiority and knowledge. For Dobson, fanatical right-wing Christianity is a racket. That is how he makes his money. Jesus warned against his kind.

Obama is correct to differentiate between Christianity which is what Jesus taught and the law of the Old Testament, much of which Jesus rejected. The right-wing fundamentalists would like us to forget that. They pick certain passages from the Old Testament, interpret them to suit themselves and then act like they are the experts on interpeting the Bible. There is nothing wrong with respecting and obeying the law of the Old Testament, but Jesus did not require it for Christians, and it is not required for Americans.

With his statement, Dobson just proved Obama's point. Christianity is not a monolithic religion or a single belief. And if we became a "Christian nation" as opposed to a tolerant nation in which many faiths including many religions other than Christianity and many forms of Christianity are accepted as equals, most Americans would be very unhappy. We would probably have an endless sectarian war. Obama is so right in saying that religious tolerance and separation of church and state are essential in our diverse country.

James Madison knew very well that the First Amendment requires separation of church and state.

[Bluebear]

5. Good. The less Obama speaks about the Bible, the better.

[Skittles]

6. YOU KNOW IT, PT

ENOUGH OF THIS F***ING NONSENSE

[lonestarnot]

9. Separation of Church and State and leave it at that. Discuss the Constitution.

[babylonsister]

7. Silliness about shellfish? What are you talking about?

I think Obama is just trying to start a dialogue with people of religion. He's not trying to convert anyone, but dialogues are always good.

PS I didn't read the link; forgive me, but acknowledging religion can't be a bad thing (unless you're a Dem?):)

[Dogmudgeon]

11. www.godhatesshrimp.com

Surfest thou thereto, verily.

--p!

[babylonsister]

13. I'm not going there!

:rofl:

[Kat45]

10. Shellfish is fair game since it's in the same section they quote about men lying with men

being an abomination. Leviticus is certainly one of the sections quoted by those opposing gay anything.

[Art_from_Ark]

23. Leviticus

Isn't that the book that describes how the Children of Israel stoned a man to death because he was picking up sticks on the sabbath?

[CreekDog]

26. Being shellfish is sinful

one should be generous. :think:

[melody]

12. Thank heavens he's not knowledgeable about that silliness

Gobama indeed. :rofl:

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

14. Man, some of you really do miss the forest for the trees.

I gave you a citation from the OLD TESTAMENT that aligns quite nicely with democratic ideals and with our humanistic approach to things. And what do I get: hypocrisy on homosexuality, arguing over shellfish, etc. THIS IS OBAMA'S MISTAKE. Quote relevant Scripture. People here may not buy it, but there are millions out there who will. And the quote from Isaiah above seems to get at the spirit of what this board is about: caring for the needy and the downtrodden out there, to see that we ARE a community, that what happens to one happens to all of us--that the point of community is sacrifice.

That's all. Man, try to envision a little hope in this world. My post was simply trying to demonstrate that the Obama campaign chose unwisely in its choice of biblical fights. Choose HOPE. It's easily found in biblical literature--at least for those who believe; and let's face it, those are the votes he's going for.

[Leopolds Ghost]

16. That's because a lot of upper middle class liberals are divorced from the religious impulse behind

radicalism of the so-called "left".

They think too much radical "leftism" is bad and they think religion is bad.

Liberals have allowed conservatives to dominate the religious debate on
social justice (a concept that is fundamentally spiritual in nature).

Most secular liberalism is either utilitarian/materialistic in nature
and thus concerned with the situational ethics of social justice as it
applies to them and folks they can feel for or relate to.

The remainder of secular liberalism in this country is obsessed with
single-issue social lifestyle nonsense just like conservatives.

That is why Isaiah refuses to get much cred in these debates.

Liberals and conservatives have made a pact that there is

NO ONE RELIGIOUS TO THE LEFT OF MARX,

thus allowing the radical left which is in its origins
spiritual in inspiration to be socially and culturally marginalized.

[cui bono]

15. Did you see this article about how he's reaching out and making headway

with evangelicals?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=6395226

[dkf]

17. OK, I am not religious and I have NO idea what your post says.

[Leopolds Ghost]

19. He's referring to the prohibition on shellfish, using milk in stew, and mixed-thread linens

Which are given the same authority in Leviticus
(the ancient Jewish legal code) as the ban on homosexuality.

As well as a section allowing men to sell their daughters
(but not sons) into slavery.

Obama was trying to make the point that Leviticus really
can't be followed by any practicing Christian,

But as the OP notes, this is all a distraction because
the Gospel overrides Leviticus and most conservative Christians
rely on the letters of the apostle Paul (who was definitely
idiosyncratic and not infallible) to tell them what to think
about society and politics.

They also believe Jesus' own words are NOT to be followed because
Jesus was perfect and you can't follow the example of someone who
is perfect.

[dkf]

20. Ok, this is the first time I've heard that Christians are not supposed to follow Jesus words.

So conservative Christians don't follow Jesus, they follow the apostle Paul? They can pick and choose and they chose someone else over Jesus? Dang, that doesn't make any sense to me.

Is this only a particular group that does this?

[Leopolds Ghost]

18. If Obama believes in the teachings of Isaiah (and Jesus), why does he support:

* welfare reform

* allowing New Orleans public housing to be torn down
-- by a unanimous vote of Democrats -- following a
plan created by Democrats

* saying nothing while FISA guts our privacy rights
(only mildly opposes telecom amnesty -- it's a
process question for him)

* corporate free trade agreements of any sort

Jesus would have counseled that our current government
and its practices, especially putting the poor out of
their homes and spying on people, are wicked. These
are universal values.

[EFerrari]

22. What's hilarious is Dobson calling anyone confused.

LOL!

And then, he tries to talk about the Constitution.

:rofl:

[and-justice-for-all]

24. I do not give a shit about bronze age nonsense..

or that fuck wad Dobson. Both are irrelevant.

[CreekDog]

25. I would think misquoting the bible would help him among evangelicals

based on my experiences.

and Dobson doesn't know squat about the bible (nor care from what I can tell). his little church bulletin insert messages barely even reference the bible!

[lanlady]

27. is there some sort of religious test for office--

--that we're not aware of, Mr Dobson?