L.A. seeing more people living out of their cars. So WTF do you want these people to do?

[EV_Ares]

LOS ANGELES - Having lost her job and her three-bedroom house, Darlene Knoll has joined the legions of downwardly mobile who are four wheels away from homelessness.

She is living out of her shabby 1978 RV, and every night she has to look for a place to park where she won't get hassled by the cops or insulted by residents.

"I'm not a piece of trash," the former home health-care aide said as she stroked one of five dogs in her cramped quarters parked in the waterfront community of Marina del Rey.

Amid the foreclosure crisis and the shaky economy, some California cities are seeing an increase in the number of people living out of their cars, vans or RVs.

Acting on complaints from homeowners, the Los Angeles City Council got tough earlier this year by forbidding nearly all overnight parking in residential neighborhoods such as South Brentwood.

But some people are just crowding into other parts of the city, including the seaside community of Venice, where dozens of rusty, dilapidated campers can be seen lined up outside neat single-family homes. The stench of urine emanates from a few of the vehicles, and some residents say they have seen human waste left behind.

"They're nasty and gnarly," said Venice resident Jeff Scharlin. "We've heard about drug dealing and prostitution in them. I've never seen it, but visually they're a blight and they take up parking space."

In Los Angeles, as in many other cities, it is illegal to live in vehicles on public streets. But the law is not easy to enforce. Police have to enter a vehicle to find signs that people are living there, such as cooking or sleeping, and occupants often refuse to answer when cops knock.

An easier way is to restrict overnight parking. In L.A., a first offense carries a $50 fine, and subsequent violations can cost as much as $100.

Parking-enforcement officers often give vehicle owners a warning and tell them to move on before issuing a ticket, and that usually solves the problem, said Alan Willis, a city transportation engineer. But other cities in the area are not as lenient.

"I had my motor home towed in Culver City. It cost me $500 to get it out," said Desiri Hawkins, who lives in a small RV in Venice. "I got ticketed in Santa Monica and had to go to court."

rest of the article @ the link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080623/ap_on_re_us/mobile_homeless;_ylt=Aq4uZevJl4GH3qTC7mveO9zZn414

[SpiralHawk]

1. "They can just pull themselves up by their own bald tires. Smirk." - Republicon Cronies

"Or do what we do and dip into their Swiss bank accounts. Smirk."

- Republicon Homelander Cronies

[Two Truck]

2. Truthfully?

uh, well, move?
Just an idea, but hey, thats just me. The FL job went bust 20 odd years ago so I left. I suppose I coulda just lived on the beach but I know what I'm capable of. Nobody will make me a victim unless I let them

[EV_Ares]

3. uh, well, move, good for you. However, not everybody is in the exact same situation.

Probably a lot of these people would like to move but for whatever personal reasons, may not be able to move right now. Also, a lot of people find it very difficult to leave for many reasons. I have heard that story so many times, I did this, I did that and so can they. Well, fortunately, I myself have never found myself in these difficult situations but I think that the city might be able to find a temporary fix where these people could park their mobile homes or live until a more permanent situation develops instead of running them off like animals.

Hell, the very same people probably wanting to kick them out of everywhere they go are probably the same ones who think Bush is wonderful who certainly had a part in these economic times for us all.

Don't you think in these difficult times for us all and for some the most horrendous of times, we might try to work together to solve a problem instead of just kicking those already down. There must be a better way. These are single moms, dads, families whoever and they are not all criminals, lazy or looking for a handout, only trying to survive in this pile of crap Bush has given us or at least, made much, much worse with his frigging trickle down economic policies.

[Two Truck]

10. granted,

but nowhere did I say it was easy, nor did I say to kick them out.
ya do what you gotta do. you wanna live in your car? fine.
If not, then you gotta work for it.
Having found myself in this position I had the opprotunity ot see the revolving door of
poverty. nobody but yourself can get you out, but you gotta want it bad enough to do it.

[EV_Ares]

14. Nobody here is talking about anything being easy. You say you didn't say kick them out. What was

the uh, well, move. Just like that. There is a hell of a lot more to the problem then them having to move all over town after they are kicked out every day from where they are. Who said anything about anyone wanting to live in their mobile home, van or car? They are not living there by choice. Who says they don't want to work to get out of their situation.

Maybe that is what they are trying to do right now, find a job, but sometimes you just can't find one right away or due to the fact, they are kicked out of everywhere they go, they are too busy having to move again or trying to find money for gas to move.

Who says these people aren't trying to get themselves out of poverty.

I hope somebody in the City tries to find a more humane, intelligent solution to this problem than just "uh, well, move".

[Two Truck]

20. I can't afford to live in Chicago

so I don't. That doesn't make it your responsability to make sure I can, simply because I think I
might have to endure a hardship if I left.
LA is on the same scale. Not an inexpensive place to live.
I'm not trying to be arrogant, but you have to admit, common sense is somtimes neglected.

[EV_Ares]

21. You say the following in your post:

"I'm not trying to be arrogant, but you have to admit, common sense is sometimes neglected."

I think your postings on this subject show "arrogance" and your lack of "common sense" and your lack of any compassion at all. Hell, now you bring Chicago into this and you are blaming them for being in LA. HTF do you know how or why they are in LA in the first place. All, you say is move, not once have you even tried to bring any kind of a solution that might be better in the long run or at least a more compassionate solution.

You are one sad individual. My opinion only.

[Two Truck]

27. I mention Chicago since it's closest to me but

you want more compassion?
How about this?
gee, I am so sorry that things aren't working out for you in LA. If you'll step right over here in
this line we'll be glad to help.
Yes, I know the line is long and the wait will be longer, but you see, there are alot of other disadvantaged individuals like you in the area and we can only help so many so fast.
Living in your car you say? Can't find a job that will pay what are likley the third highest rent rates in the country? There's help right over here in this line for that. Yes, I know, I know but there are a very large number of very needy people here in SoCal. Pehaps we could offer you a shorter line. However it seems to be in another location. Alot less populated, less expensive, there is likely even a job opprotunity if you try.
But you like SoCal? You have friends here? Family? I see.
Certainly, you can have your place back in line.
Next person please.

My point is, it does'nt matter the how, or the why, when you are hungry.
What matters is the now, and the courage to take the first step on your own.
Last time I was that hungry, everybody and thier compassion didn't fill my stomach. The will to make the tough choices did.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Two Truck]

89. Wow

I didn't realize being self sufficient was a crime. Guilty as charged.
I busted my butt getting where I can live comfortably and provide for my family.
BTW, blue collar, non-union, small business, EMPLOYEE here.
Save your sorrows for those that want it.
Speaking of want, I've co-signed for student loans for friends kids to go to college, and start a carrer. I've provided financial advice for a low income couple to ultimately buy thier first home (no threat of forclosure there either) and never hesitate to provide a helping hand to get up, as opposed to a pitiful hand out.

[Iris]

94. well, maybe you can spread yourself around so we all know which hands are helpful and which are

merely pitiful handouts.

[Two Truck]

96. It's easy, when I was little, I learned.

Help those who help themselves.
I'm sure you know the source, don't ya?

[Iris]

97. uh, no. I'm just a liberal heathen

Still, I don't understand how you know the woman in the op is not trying to help herself.

[devilgrrl]

100. Oh Iris, Iris, Iris. Didn't you know that people are poor because they're lazy?

Where have you been?

:sarcasm:

[Iris]

102. oh,right. I've been down-thread bitching about those ingrates who think they DESERVE a place to live

geez. The entitlement culture - I can't take much more of it! We need 4 more years like the last 8, dontcha think?

[devilgrrl]

105. Absolutely. Freedom isn't free! When are people going to learn?

;-)

[Two Truck]

107. common ground?

"We need 4 more years like the last 8, dontcha think"

Oh hell no....on that we'll agree 100% Dare I say the last 10 arent worth repeating.

[defendandprotect]

209. Oops . . . United Nations . . . . food, clothing, shelter, medical care . . .

but we've ripped up the Geneva Accords so the psychopaths in the White House can have all the
vicarious fun of TORTURE, so what could the UN Human Rights Charter possibly mean --- ????


If you're born on this planet --- you deserve a place to live ---

[Two Truck]

103. not lazy.

defeated maybe, not lazy.
I really belive that anybody in her position could, and can get right back on thier feet.
At what age do you start hteaching children to do things on thier own? Once they do, they realize they can.
In the end, you'll never stop helping them, you just stop doing it for them.

[devilgrrl]

98. No, I don't know the source of that, what is it?

:popcorn:

[Bluenorthwest]

181. No, what is the source?

Because if you think it is in the Bible, you are as wrong about that as everything else you post. Is that a quote from your Holy Koran? It sure is not the Bible.

Tell me, where do you think that quote comes from? Book, chapter and verse please.

[defendandprotect]

200. ...and therefore the homeless just don't want to "help themselves" . . .??

and/or the homeless are simply a "godless" group --- ???

[bobbolink]

203. CLUE -- it AIN'T the Bible.

Jes' little ole Benny Franklin.

[EV_Ares]

99. Yeah, will it really isn't hard to feel sorry for someone such as yourself, you must be a really

miserable feeling individual. I do hope things get better for you to where you can exist among your fellowman as a humane human being instead of the shallowness and uncaring human you are showing yourself to be as of now. If you really work hard you can achieve those goals and become a better citizen. I want to assure you that those of us here at DU will be pulling for you.

Otherwise, I suggest you go to those who see things through their eyes as you do yours at places such as Free Republic and other sites like those. I am sure there, you will feel the comrade spirit you desire. You might of accidentally got to the wrong board here and just haven't realized it yet.

[dysfunctional press]

121. you sound like a VERY MUCH more miserable person than TwoTruck- by a LONG shot.

what exactly do you do besides piss & moan about society and/or shit on other people's viewpoints/positive suggestions?

because that's all i'm seeing...:shrug:

[EV_Ares]

122. I can imagine that would be all someone as yourself would see. eom

[Rex]

236. A pitiful handout? Wow, you must hate poor people.

Why do you hate the down trodden?

[dysfunctional press]

120. double-wow.

why do you feel the need to shit all over somebodies VERY common-sense suggestions, while making absolutely NO meaningful suggestions of your own...?

your sympathies are misplaced- you should really be feeling more sorry about yourself.

[EV_Ares]

123. Is that the best you can do copy something from someone else's post?

Really not worth replying to but!

Could you be on the wrong board? Maybe Free Republic would be more to your liking.

[dysfunctional press]

134. still not making any positive suggestions, i see...

just spewing more shit- seems to be your specialty.

[EV_Ares]

140. Talking to Yourself - ? Evidently you have trouble with reading comprehension

as well and have not been able to read the posts here by myself and others. In comparison to your few non-productive posts, you look pretty weak as in weak minded. Just look at this post and what you said. Really pathetic as I would expect.

[dysfunctional press]

161. i see plenty of posts of you shitting on someone elses' ideas...

maybe you could direct me to those posts of yours where you provide actual suggestions to remedy the situation presented...? :shrug: post numbers would be fine, btw.

[EV_Ares]

163. You just proved you do have a reading comprehension problem.

Nobody else has any problem. You are a waste of time and do your own work even if you do have a reading problem. Your few posts have done nothing but take up time.

I think most of us have figured out your purpose anyway. You might check out the Free Republic's board or one of those where the thought process is the same as yours.

Good Night.

[dysfunctional press]

167. hahahahahahaha.....thanks for that...i needed a good laugh to start the day...

nothing. thaqt's the sum total of your positive suggestions in this thread.

BWAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....

[EV_Ares]

169. I can tell it doesn't take much to do that for you as long as you can keep it

in short syllable words. Like some of the other posters said, sometimes those as yourself just come out of the woodwork. Now run along, hear Free Republic calling you back.

[dysfunctional press]

187. hahahahahahahaha....you just don't stop do you...?

one more chance to show off your level of intellect- what is YOUR solution to the issue of people who choose to stay and live in their vehicles, rather than seek opportunity elsewhere?

[EV_Ares]

196. First of all it is hard to explain it to a child or someone of your intelligence which is

evident from the wording of your childish posts which have never added to the discussion here. Also, since evidently you are unable to read or don't bother to read the posts here by everyone including myself, there is no way to help you and you don't care about anything except as you only intend to take up peoples time and try to disrupt the thread. Again, you need to run along to the Free Republic where you belong.

Done with you here as you are a waste of timed as others have indicated.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3510902&mesg_id=3514177

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3510902&mesg_id=3514471

[dysfunctional press]

198. instead of constant shit-throwing, why don't you make even ONE positive suggestion...?

because you OBVIOUSLY can't.

i've asked you MULTIPLE times to provide ANY type of alternative solution- and all you seem to be able to do is shit on other people's comments, and tell others to go away...

you are the epitome of what this country is turning into.

thank-you very much for all the chuckles your non-sensical and completely predictable your semi-to-non responses have been...:eyes:

have a nice summer, and good-luck starting high-school next fall :hi:

[EV_Ares]

202. The truth hurts doesn't it. I along with others have had the discussions,

where are your alternative solutions other than fuck them.

Tough getting called on what you are.

The posts speak for themselves don't they (for those who can read that is.)

[dysfunctional press]

210. you really ought to look up the meaning of the word "discussions"...

because what you're having ain't them. you' seem to be all about bitching, moaning, and shitting.

do yourself and your society a favour- learn a little bit about meaningful discourse.

and/or get sterilized before you do something really silly & dangerous like reproduce.

[EV_Ares]

211. And you are showing yourself with your 10 or 12 posts that have only

attacked me and other posters, have never contributed to this thread and again.

People other than yourself can read so again the posts speak for themselves. The only reason you don't know what a discussion is or have not had one is because you have never participated in one with anyone. Only attempted to disrupt.

You have outed yourself for what you are.

Go home to Free Republic or whereever, you would be among your own kind there.

Done with your time wasting here.

[dysfunctional press]

212. i've given you every opportunity to offer up even one positive suggestion...

or even point me in the direction of one you might have made in the past- and you simply cannot accomplish that seemingly simple task, because you obviously have none to offer.

you really are a pitiful excuse- bitch, moan, whine, shit...nice routine you've made for yourself.

[EV_Ares]

214. Your post is so funny and ridiculous I would think most would be embarrassed. You say the following

Posted by QuestionAll

i've given you every opportunity to offer up even one positive suggestion...
or even point me in the direction of one you might have made in the past- and you simply cannot accomplish that seemingly simple task, because you obviously have none to offer.
you really are a pitiful excuse- bitch, moan, whine, shit...nice routine you've made for yourself.
-----------------------------------------------------------

#1) If you can't find the threads others and I have posted, then it is a lost cause.

#2) If we actually have to even point you in the right direction, you are more pathetic than I thought.

#3) the rest of your post shows your personality and character of your 12 or so threads which are nothing but disrupting threads as the one above of yours.

The others know what I have posted and they know what your disruptive posts have been. It really isn't that hard to read a post which is the whole point. If you can't do that and find threads, you need to go back to remedial training. Hell, you can go down and find your dozen or so nothing posts in about 2 minutes.

Don't have to prove anything to you and not going to get down on your juvenile level.

[Two Americas]

275. this is dishonest

What you mean is "positive suggestions that do not involve political action" - that is, you demand personalized individual solutions. That is a clever but dishonest way to enforce your view that personal solutions are the only way to approach social problems.

[Hannah Bell]

242. subsidized housing. higher minimum wage. universal health care.

checks on job off-shoring. rescind the bush tax cuts. re-regulation. stop corp subsidies for tax havens & off-shore profits. etc.

i lived in a time when you never saw homeless people. things didn't change because people suddenly became more lazy or stupid.


thank you for the chuckles too. asshole.

[U4ikLefty]

233. Uh, many progeressives believe that it is the repsonibility of the

state to provide a living wage in those areas so folks can AFFORD to live where they work. I'm sure that concept blows your mind!!!

You don't know shit about living in LA, and I can tell you never had to live out of your car, all alone (like I have) or you would not talk about it in such a cavalier way.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blindpig]

22. good for you

Who the fuck are you, John Galt?

So I guess that people living in poverty deserve it, huh?

What libertarian dreck.

[bobbolink]

28. Oh, yes, we ALL *WANT* to live in our cars!!!

When I was 7 years old, and some adult asked me what I wanted to do in my life, I replied "I want to live in my car." See, I had it all plotted out, even then.

I'd welcome you to DU, but I can't help but wonder if you have the heart for this place.

[Blue_Tires]

110. you should have replied you want to live IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!

lalz

[readmoreoften]

111. And what about people who have jobs? Where should they go?

You have a $7 an hour job and can't survive except to live in your car. What are you supposed to do? Spend your next paycheck on gas and move somewhere else for another $7 an hour job? OOPS! All there savings just got spent on a ticket from the city for vagrancy :crazy:

[dysfunctional press]

104. what do YOU suggest...?

the poster made a very valid suggestion, based on reality & personal experience- but all you can do is shoot it down.

if people CHOOSE to stay in an area and live out of their cars, rather than try to find better opportunities elsewhere, why should ANYTHING be done "for" them...? :shrug:

these people have made their choice.

[Two Truck]

109. Well, first

I'd say somthing about the five dogs living with her but that would just make me more, uh, popular?

[devilgrrl]

115. Would it make you feel better if she had 5 children as opposed to 5 dogs?

:eyes:

[dysfunctional press]

119. i have more sympathy for the dogs in that situation, than the woman who chooses to keep them...

while choosing to live in her car.

[devilgrrl]

124. Oh, I'm sorry. Who's talking to you?

I think Mr. TwoTruck can take care of himself.

[dysfunctional press]

131. you didn't see any problem with jumping in...why should i?

:shrug:

[devilgrrl]

135. I addressed him directly earlier. Go be the third-man-in somewhere else.

eom

[dysfunctional press]

160. maybe you need to start your own message board...

then you could make ALL the rules you like. :think:

[BeHereNow]

197. Devilgrrl- Wanna meet up at the Bugliosi talk tonight?

Robinlynne is going- we have a plan to hook up later.
It's in Venice- 2210 Lincoln Blvd.
Sorry to interrupt this thread, but I wanted
to check in with you about the Bugliosi event.

"Meet Former LA Prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi
Author of
"The Prosecution of George Bush for Murder"

Wednesday, June 25th, 7:00 PM
at the
Venice United Methodist Church
2210 Lincoln Blvd., Venice"

BHN

[devilgrrl]

213. I'm afraid I can't make it this evening. Let me know how it goes.

:-(

[JuniperLea]

278. Rats!

I can't get out of the office until after six tonight... downtown... I'd sure like to be there! Please do report back on this!

[eridani]

225. Of course the solution is obvious

You lose your job, you take your dogs to the pound so they can be gassed. :sarcasm:

[dysfunctional press]

118. that struck me as well...

i have more sympathy for the dogs than for the woman who chooses to keep them all in her car.

[devilgrrl]

125. Yes QuestionAll, your penchant for kicking people when they're down is well noted.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled routine of defending warrantless wiretapping.

[dysfunctional press]

162. when have i defended warrantless wiretapping...?

or are you confusing me with someone else?

[SmileyRose]

158. You certainly don't lack bravery

low posts AND suggesting ways a woman with low income jobs skills and 5 dogs might improve her quality of life -- you know you are just asking for it.

I have only been here a few weeks but even I have learned on the DU one is going to get alerted and flamed within and inch of their DU registration for any of the following.

1. Any suggestion that any human in an unfortunate situation MAY have choices at their own disposal that MIGHT improve their quality of life. This is equal to admitting you are the evil rich who eats kittens for breakfast and kicks homeless people just for fun.

2. Any suggestion that SUV's have any use whatsoever. You may as well go back to eating kittens for breakfast.

There are probably a few more but I haven't been here long enough to learn those yet.

BTW - my neighbor is a "Katrina victim". Although financially and physically able to leave ahead, her grandmother just refused to leave. Granny was over 90 and sickly, was convinced there would be a mess but it would certainly be survivable as so many other hurricanes have been - and she'd seen a lot of them. My neighbor chose to stay to keep an eye on granny. Well they did survive the storm, weren't in the area of flooding, but granny died of old age 4 days after the hurricane. My neighbor, God bless her, was trapped. Once she got out she came to Atlanta with her son. She said she will never go back. Even with all the problems in my community, she said life here is better for her than it ever was in NOLA. She always thought she would never live anywhere other than the little community in "metro" NOLA. Thinking outside the box was not possible for her - but circumstance beyond her control forced her to change.

I think a lot of people at the very bottom economically are in the same situation. And when a crisis hits, a job loss, a health crisis, a natural disaster or whatever - it's the "sameness" that we cling to in order to keep our sanity. When most people's lives hit the crapper they automatically turn to what is most familiar. So asking someone who's lost a job and a home to leave the part of the world where they've live all their lives certainly is asking them to go against their own nature. Yes, like in your case, and like in my neighbor's case it can have a big payoff - but getting someone to take that step often requires a sudden and dramatic occurance - and usually some sort of connection, even if just a tiny thread, to whatever place one decides to go. A single female with 5 dogs is very unlikely to move unless she has family or friend elsewhere - or to go along.

[Snarkturian Clone]

286. you learn quickly.

I have only been here a few weeks but even I have learned on the DU one is going to get alerted and flamed within and inch of their DU registration for any of the following.

1. Any suggestion that any human in an unfortunate situation MAY have choices at their own disposal that MIGHT improve their quality of life. This is equal to admitting you are the evil rich who eats kittens for breakfast and kicks homeless people just for fun.

2. Any suggestion that SUV's have any use whatsoever. You may as well go back to eating kittens for breakfast.



Welcome!

[notadmblnd]

6. I'll bet you've probably never been called a bleeding heart liberal

Welcome to DU and enjoy your stay :hi:

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Two Truck]

12. very

Nice.
I really didn't expect it to go over well.
Never does.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbolink]

29. "I really didn't expect it to go over well. Never does." MAYBE there's something to learn in that?

MAYBE it bears a rethink?

[ProfessorGAC]

35. You Didn't Expect It To Go Over Well?

So, you came here to pontificate and now are put off by the fact that people don't agree with your point of view?

It's all about you isn't it?
The Professor

[Two Truck]

41. It's not about me

I didn't just come here, I've been here. A while.
Still I was surprised how quickly it jumped to a deliberate personal attack from someone who also offered no solution, either.
While some agree with me, and some also have been down a similar road, I didn't expect it to be a resoundingly popular opinion.
Still doesn't warrant personal attacks from strangers.

[ProfessorGAC]

44. And, This Topic Didn't Warrant. . .

. . .a pedantic lecture either. Yet, you provided one. Pedantic, yet only two dimensional.

GAC

[Iris]

73. 3 months is not "a while" on DU nt

[Two Truck]

91. Ya know, you're right

It took a long time to get the feel of things, agree with some, disagree with others.
It's not like it's a private forum.

[Iris]

95. There are rules here. If I could make one it would be that members not continue the war on the poor.

[Vickers]

7. Wow, you solved that problem FAST!

:thumbsup:

Welcome to DU yadda yadda yadda...

[Iris]

75. perhaps a potential running mate? Excellent VP material.

[City Lights]

17. Whatever, dude. Just don't claim "compassion" is one of the things you're

capable of.

[bobbolink]

30. .

:applause:

[devilgrrl]

25. Why do people neglect to mention Security Deposits when bringing up the topic of moving?

In my neighborhood, one is required to pay a security deposit which is usually one month's rent. The average rent here (West Hollywood, CA) is now about $1,200.00 for a single (no bedroom), which means that someone would need $2,400.00 to move in.

Now, don't you think that putting that kind of money together is a little difficult for people living paycheck to paycheck?

This country really needs to get off it's high horse. :crazy:

[raccoon]

36. THANK YOU. Yes, security deposits for the rent, also for electricity,

water, telephone (at least for land line).

[taught_me_patience]

37. You're choosing to live

in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in Los Angeles. It's not a place for someone living paycheck to paycheck. There are many other places to live with cheaper rent.

People need to get over their sense of entitlement.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Two Truck]

42. Exactly my point.

Los Angeles ain't cheap. Chicago, NY, most any large metropolitan area is out of the price range of normal everyday working class people that hit a bad patch.
But it's not something that can't be dealt with.

[devilgrrl]

45. So cops, teachers, etc. should have to move because they can no longer afford to live in big cities?

That's happening now in places like NYC, Chicago, San Francisco, etc... got any solutions for those problems Answer Man?

[Two Truck]

48. ugh. They can live anywhere they want,

But I'll tell ya this, I'm not gonna be a teacher or a cop for long if I ain't making enough to support my family.
While there is no single solution to any problem, how about we start by trying to live within our means?
Big picture here, I don't expect a minimum wage earner to be able to afford a West Hollywood single anymore than I expect a middle manager to have a beach house in Malibu immediately just because they want one.
But, and this is a big leap of faith, if you start living within what you can afford for housing, fuel (thats a big one right now), and essentials it can and is possible to start moving up.
However it ain't happenin overnight. Yes that means if you can't buy groceries then maybe, just maybe, the plasma TV on credit just ain't for you. Yet.

[devilgrrl]

49. "I'm not gonna be a teacher or a cop for long if I ain't making enough to support my family."

And that settles it.

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[mdmc]

52. Is there anywhere the working poor can live in the USA?

I would be willing to move to another area if I could afford to.

[devilgrrl]

53. Oh, quit acting as if you're entitled or something. Get off your ass and get a second job you loser.

:sarcasm:

Sorry, that wasn't about you and everything about the cold-hearted filth that has infested this community the past 7+ years.

The United States of You're On Your Own. Ain't it just grand?

[mdmc]

69. I do have two jobs my friend

but I live within 50 miles of NYC.

I would move.Really.
If St.Paul MN is less expensive, I will move.
It looks like gas price + low wages = hard times (all over America).

Is there anywhere in the USA that I would be able to see a dentist?

Oh, well.

Peace and low stress Devilgrrl. I hope things are all good with you and with yours. God Bless.

[CrispyQ]

186. In his book, "All Together Now" Jared Bernstein calls them the YOYOs vs. the WITTs.

YOYO = Your On Your Own
WITT = We're In This Together

He talks about how it is more economical & just to provide a shared social safety net for everyone instead of everyone providing their own. He states that in a just & compassionate society, there is no limit to how high one can climb, but there is a limit to how low one can fall.

===
The YOYOs are greedy, self-righteous fuckers who don't want to contribute to a social safety net. They judge everyone by their own experience & capabilities with no appreciation for how different people's situations & abilities are. Those who can't cut it on their own are losers & don't deserve help. I'm sickened by their heartlessness & that it is a prevailing attitude in our society today. Who was it who said you can judge a society by how it treats the least of those in it? Well, our society is sadly lacking.

[Hannah Bell]

243. except most yoyo's are the first to scream for gov't help when

things don't go well for them.

a lot of them get gov't help already, & rationalize it. like my cousin-in-law with the 6-figure income getting subsidized help for their developmentally delayed son.

big libertarians.

[Iris]

77. No. A few years back Harpers included the number of counties where someone making minimum wage could

afford to rent an apartment - 0. That's ZERO. Not a single county in the entire US of A.

[devilgrrl]

81. Oh, come now. They can always get roommates, now can't they?

:sarcasm:

Thanks for the info btw.

[Iris]

86. yes, overcrowded tenemants are really underrated!

[devilgrrl]

87. Aren't they?

Is that living or what?

[Iris]

90. I don't know. Do you think those folks are really entitled to that kind of luxury?

[devilgrrl]

92. Not a chance. You give someone that kind of leeway, they'll just continue to exploit the situation.

It won't give them any incentive to work harder to make their lives better.

;-)

[Iris]

93. you are the devil, girl!

:evilgrin:

[theboss]

152. I slept on a sleepaway couch for 6 months when I moved to DC

It's not the end of the world.

I was three days away from renting a room with a woman who did not allow beer or girls in the place when I finally found an apartment.

[EV_Ares]

80. Good point and you just brought up a pont either the head of the police dept

or fire dept in SF mentioned. Since those employees can no longer afford to live in SF, what is going to happen if they have an emergency and fireman, policemen, nurses, etc cannot get back into the city to help.

[devilgrrl]

82. Why, I guess those firemen will just have to find jobs that enable them to support their families.

:popcorn:

Should be a breeze.

[devilgrrl]

47. The article wasn't about me and where in Los Angeles is it affordable to live?

Since the mod felt the need to delete post, I rewrite it.

Now, tell us where in Los Angeles a person living paycheck to paycheck can scrap enough money together to cover a security deposit and the first months rent?

[Lance_Boyle]

54. I think the whole point was NOT IN LOS ANGELES.

There are lots of places in America - the majority of places, even - that are not Los Angeles. If LA is too expensive, doesn't it make sense to consider "not LA" as a place to live?

[devilgrrl]

56. Please name some of these places and don't forget to mention the fabulous economic opportunities...

they have to offer.

:popcorn:

[Carnea]

64. East of the Rockies south of Chicago and south of Northern Virginia

If you are getting a $20 an hour type job it pays about the same in the south and Midwest as it does on the coasts with the notable exception of some Union work.

[devilgrrl]

66. You can get $20 an hour in these places? Gee, then what's there to worry about?

Just move to Missouri and all your dreams will come true!!!

:eyes:

[Carnea]

72. Well not all those places (And some skills might help)

But there are people in LA working for $12 an hour..... THAT IS INSANE..... Those jobs pay the same in places that have a fifth of the living costs and taxes.

[Hannah Bell]

245. cheaper rents here: but $12/hr is considered "good pay" here

by the kind of folks you're talking about.

there's a reason rents are cheaper. we have 8.5% unemployment.

[Carni]

188. Not likely *south of Northern VA*

Not unless you're driving into DC to do it and with gas at 4 bucks a gallon driving 70 miles to work would kind of defeat the whole point...the pay scale
locally *south of northern VA* is not so much (which is probably because there is hardly any industry out in the sticks) 20 an hour would be hard to find.

[Bluerthanblue]

148. So- LA can exist without Teachers, or Firefighters? How about a living wage?

whatever happened to that silly concept?

If people can't afford to live in La. on the salary paid for being a teacher or other public service worker there, something is wrong-

peace~

[eridani]

226. The places with cheaper rent are the places no one wants to live in because

--the job markets are so crappy there. I like how all the self-righteous sociopathic shitstains advise homeless people that they should either go where the jobs are (higher rents because there are more people looking for housing in a better job market) and at the same time go where the rents are cheap (fewer people because of no jobs).

[Carnea]

60. Why would you live somewere when rent is that much>?????

There are plenty urban areas where $750 a month can get you two bedroom gated community with pool and tennis courts and gym and handball and free car washing deck.... all with a $99 move in special.

Plus if you are living in your car and not paying rent you should be able to save up money for a deposit.

[devilgrrl]

63. I live here because I can afford to, I was simply illustrating what others may have to contend with.

Jesus H. Christ! :banghead:

[EV_Ares]

83. Hang in there. Some of these other people may have been able

to afford to live there as well. What do we know about their lives and what occurred to throw them into the homeless situation they are in now. We know it could have been a medical situation or whatever. And, they may want to get the hell out of there as soon as they can get their lives put together mentally and financially enough to be able to make a decision about themselves. These people who just say fuck everything and tell them to move is bs. Yes, moving certainly is in the cards but what the hell is wrong with finding a dam place for these people to be able to park their rvs or whatever they are living in for a temporary time and get some people there to at least help them to get some structure in theirs and their families lives where they can make a decision and get their lives back together again instead of running them off every night like a stray animal.

[devilgrrl]

65. Where are these communities and what wonderful economic opportunities do they have to offer?

Say, how far would one have to drive to get to work in one of these wonderfully affordable places? :popcorn:

[Carnea]

68. A lot less than LA I had a 15 minute commute before I started Telecommuting.

And I was referring to the people in the article not yourself.

[devilgrrl]

71. Where do you live? Is everyone in your community lucky enough to be able to telecommute?

:popcorn:

[Carnea]

74. Many do. I live in the Tampa St Pete area (I know Florida)

But if you can't find nice housing within a half hour of work in this town you simply are not trying.

Honestly though you have to work at paying 1200 a month rent . That's a three bedroom house with a pool around here.

[devilgrrl]

78. Awesome. You should contact with the subject of the article, tell them FL is the place to be.

I'm sure she can scrape enough money together for gas, security deposit and first months rent, then drag her ass across country and live in Tampa, FL. Shouldn't cost much at all if you spend within your means.

:popcorn:

[Carnea]

84. Well considering she isn't paying rent she should have a tidy sum saved....

I sympathize with the person described in the OP been there done that... (and outdoors and in a real car not one of those fancy RV"S that's luxury dammit.)

But honestly some of the responses seem myopic. What should the city of LA do?

Provide a free house?

She cannot afford to live there. MMMkay. She lives in an RV (Which really isn't the end of the world. I hear there are people who live in them on purpose.)

So should she move somewhere were she can get lot rent and hook-up for $150 a month and proceed to rebuild her life?

Or should she continue to move from Parking lot to Parking lot.

This isn't an Albert Brooks movie. She can make choice that will improve her life in the long run with some short term pain.

[raccoon]

170. "What should the city of LA do?" PROVIDE AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

I don't mean provide a free house. I mean affordable rental housing.

[Hannah Bell]

247. if you "telecommute," i seriously doubt you know much about

the situation for those folks.

i'd guess few of them would ever be in a pay scale to "telecommute".

[eridani]

227. An obvious solution

All the fast food workers need to do to save gas is to telecommute! Why are they so stupid that that never occurs to them?

[tammywammy]

70. *shrug*

I used to live 12 miles from work in an apartment that was $514/month with $100 security deposit and $200 pet deposit (which I got all but $20 back when I moved out).

It was a 1 bedroom with a sunroom around 915 square feet.

Then I bought a house, so I live 14 miles away from work and pay a little more.

Also, there are areas of the country that aren't suffering like California is right now. I work at a car dealership, we're still selling plenty of cars.

[devilgrrl]

117. *shrug* I guess the disabled and jobless should move where you are then.

:shrug:

[tammywammy]

159. You're the one who asked where cheaper rent with jobs are at

There some here.

[Hannah Bell]

250. how nice for you. i can guess at your clientele. everyone's down but BMW.

March Car Sales Down, J. D. Power Report Says

March 24, 2008

J.D. Power said in a report to its clients cited by Dow Jones that March saw year-over-year double-digit declines in retail car sales at General Motors, Ford and Chrysler. Toyota's sales also were off in the early weeks of the month.

J.D. Power recently reduced its 2008 car sales forecast to below 15 million, which would be the lowest level since 1994.

• GM’s retail sales were down 14.5 percent and total sales, including fleet sales, were off 8.5 percent

• Ford’s retail sales were 14.5 percent lower with total sales down 5.5 percent

• Chrysler’s retail sales fell 21.2 percent; with total sales down 11.9 percent

• Toyota’s retail sales dipped 5.3 percent with total sales down 4.6 percent

• Honda’s retail sales were off 1.2 percent, yet the firm predicts Honda sales will end March 2.4 percent higher

• BMW sales were higher in early March by 1.3 percent.

[knitter4democracy]

137. That's if you can go up stairs, don't have a pet, and have money.

If you have trouble going up stairs and need a ground floor apt., they cost more, so you need more for first month's and security deposit. If you have a pet, you have to get rid of it, even if it's been with you for years and years and would just get put down at the shelter.

If you think people already up shit creek and living in their cars can magically save up money while paying all the debts they already lost their home to, you obviously haven't thought about how hard it is to be poor in this country.

[raccoon]

168. Like where? I doubt you could get all that in upstate SC, and this is a

relatively low cost of housing area.

"There are plenty urban areas where $750 a month can get you two bedroom gated community "

[Carnea]

207. Just speaking of my own experiance in Pinellas County, Florida. nt

[Carni]

189. What cities? LOL

I don't think you could rent an apartment in a *gated community* in Detroit for 750 a month...what urban areas are you referencing?

[Carnea]

205. Well plenty in Florida just gotta look. nt

[Carni]

215. So all these *losers* should just move to Florida

I guess?

I suppose too that Florida must not run credit checks on perspective tenants,
or employees, like the rest of the country does?

You are aware, aren't you, that people desperate enough to live in their cars or RVs probably don't have sterling credit...I know this may come as a shock,
but *gated communities* typically don't want to rent to homeless people with bad credit--even if they do have the money for the down payments etc.

I quite frankly would be really afraid to be as judgmental as some of you all are being on this thread...the saying "There but for the grace of God go I" comes to mind.

[knitter4democracy]

133. I was just thinking that.

You add up first month's rent and security deposit, and you're looking at a thousand bucks, easy, for something that isn't a scary dump with rats and roaches. How the hell is someone supposed to scrape that kind of scratch together when they're poor?

[taught_me_patience]

32. I agree with this

and believe that this is a very reasonable opinion.

If there is not much opportunity where you are, you have to move to an area with more potential. The way you've been treated in this thread is also sad. Welcome to DU!

[Carnea]

57. Shh they're homeless in San Fransico because of the man...

Of course I don't live in Manhattan (Though I have) San Francisco or San Diego because honestly I couldn't afford the housing.

I agree there are situations where people can't move but seriously how is this different than somebody moving from Flint MI to Houston Texas cause on town has jobs and one town doesn't.

[knitter4democracy]

128. Moving's expensive.

There are all the utility fees, packing, gas for trips (unless you just pile what you can into one car and go--which still costs money), and then what do you do about childcare and support networks and sick families? What if you're chronically ill and can't leave your specialist without waiting for a year to get in with a new one wherever you move? All three times we've moved since we've been married have cost us an amazing amount of money, far more than we'd planned. It's just not feasible for a lot of people.

[defendandprotect]

199. You're comparing 1988 with 2008 . . . ?

And since then we've also made homelessness illegal --
many of the homeless end up in jail ---

The only way you can avoid being a "victim" in the corporate-fascist world
that we live in today in America is via a cyanide tablet --- !!!

Otherwise, you're merely day dreaming a self-protective myth ---

[Hannah Bell]

240. That's what they tell poor people in Mexico, too, but something

tells me you wouldn't like those folks moving.

Same principle.

Tell me, when big business picks up & moves to where the labor's cheapest, why do you think labor is negligent for not picking up & following?

Because it's the main reason there's "no jobs", & we in theory are no different from Mexican migrants in this.

There's no reason that families & communities need to be broken on the whims of big capital, no reason for the destruction of towns & cities, over & over & over.

Just to fuck people & increase the concentration of wealth.

[crickets]

259. How do you move

if you've got no MONEY to do so?

Details.

[Danger Mouse]

279. Welcome to DU, Animated Corpse of Ronald Reagan!

:hi:

[Deja Q]

282. Family values; families have to uproot their lives elsewhere:

1. try to get a new home (good luck with the credit rating)
2. Hope that the new school district is competent
3. Hope the neighbors are too

Never mind that when homes go vacant, criminals and vermin often move in...

Yes, we know about personal responsibility. But it goes far deeper than that.

[G_j]

4. four wheels away from homelessness

America

[CountAllVotes]

11. it is like soylent green coming true

ever seen that movie by chance. It portrays a world where people are living like savages and living in their cars - their only shelter. :scared:

I truly feel sorry for people in such situations for whatever reason. :(

:kick:

[Javaman]

19. Check out the movie "blood diamond". There are whole societies

that are car home based in Africa.

[tishaLA]

58. Yeah but that sentence is a lie

These people aren't four wheels away from homelessness. They ARE homeless, and they just have a way of hiding it.

And on a larger level, the article is just plain mean. On the one hand, it points out that "average" people now feel the pain of homelessness because of the worsening economy, the mortgage crisis, etc. And, on the other, it appeals to the worst stereotypes about homeless people--the "stench of urine," rumors of (but not witnesses to) "drug dealing and prostitution," and, the highest crime of all in LA, taking up parking spaces!

These two narratives are simply incompatible. It is true that Venice has a large number of homeless people who often take drugs and prostitute themselves. But these are not the people living in RVs. The people living in RVs are typically people who hang onto them as the last bit of their dignity, the last thing they own, and the last thing that gives them any kind of freedom in a society that has let them down. Instead of bitching about the stench of urine coming from the "shabby" RVs, maybe we ought to concentrate on helping these people get permanent affordable housing. That would help both the homeowners and the homeless.

[Iris]

106. well-said. n/t

[Swamp Rat]

5. "We've heard about drug dealing and prostitution in them."

I've heard that goes on in the White House.

[mdmc]

9. I work 60 hours per week and can't afford an apartment by myself

My roommate got married, and I was almost homeless.

I was able to get find an "affordable" place, but I could only afford it if I moved in with my girlfriend.

[snappyturtle]

18. I so feel for you. I've heard these same stories from my two 'kids'

30 and 32 years of age. They and their friends, and their friends friends live together although many have college degrees and should be able to afford good housing singly. Many of them work two jobs and are putting in 60+ hours a week. I help when I can but we too are on hard times for a multitude of reasons but NOT because we don't want to live better OR because we don't work hard.

We live with little and I don't see it getting any better however I do see our situation getting worse despite our efforts. I hurt my back a few days ago and I'm impatient and infuriated that I no longer can afford medical insurance and get some help. I will heal but I shouldn't have to lay up like I am...frankly, we can't afford to be laid up. I just want to go out back and scream at the top of my lungs but who would hear? I restrain from doing so because I don't want to frighten the chickens and wildlife which we depend upon.

I am so disillusioned. Yesterday I was thinking about my aspirations of when I was 25, through school, married, teaching yada yada. Life was so easy. Where did I go wrong? Do you find yourself asking that? I can't think of anything pleasurable to do anymore...nothing to look forward to but more hard work. I'm sixty years old so I have had some good times but between helping sick family members with no insurance,a divorce and a decline in the economy I don't think I'll live long enough to see us get out of all the damage that has been done. If only wages had stayed up with those at the top....simple, isn't it? Sorry for the rant....but I feel a little better and I bet I'm not alone.

[mdmc]

26. Thank you for your reply

I have a question - did you ever think that your kids would have a lower quality of life?
When I was growing up I often wondered how I would be able to afford a house, car, and vacations. My parents were able to afford these things, although they both worked. My grandparents were able to afford these things on one income. My parents afforded these things on two incomes.

Now I am the head of a two family income, no children.
No cable. No restaurant dinner or lunches. No vacations.

I have, however, found myself living a happier life with less. I have affluent friends and family nearby (they go out to dinner, have awesome cable packages, enjoy their own pools and vacations). I am able to spend time with them and they easily accept the fact that I earn 25% of what they bring in (they make $100k, I make $25000).
We have them over for dinner. They treat us to pizza.
They go out to the movies. They pay us to watch their kids, eat their food, and watch their HBO on demand.

I have also become a big supporter of regional economies. I find local activities that are free or cheap (art, lectures, community based activities). I play disc golf instead of golf. I ride my bike instead of going sailing. I hike instead of ski. I picnic instead of eating out. I use the internet instead of tv cable. Instead of going to a movie, I go to church. I listen to NPR. I grow food in my garden.

I never understood how my parents afforded our middle class existence. Now I accept that I will never be middle class again. I will be part of the working poor.
I enjoy my life. I miss having disposable income, but I accept my lot as something I cannot change.
I struggle to remain a democrat. The greens (or Working Families Party, in NYS) have been talking my talk for a long time.
H. Jimmy Carter suggests that we learn to "relax and enjoy the world with others in generous ways." Perhaps this is possible. I am trying.

And I am waiting for the revolution. YES WE CAN! (?)

[snappyturtle]

34. You almost have me in tears! I find myself apologizing to my kids

for the rotten stroke of luck they have been born into. NO, I never thought my kids would have a quality of life less than I did at their age. Their father and I both worked altho I quit teaching a month before my first was born. We were on our second house at that time (I was thirty) and the future looked very promising. However, after raygun's administration got done our lives began to change....hardly noticeable at first. I even started my own lucrative craft business from home....good enough to buy 'extras' and a second home in northern MN...our vacation home. A divorce, kid's schooling and just 'life' has eaten everything up. We tried to make knowlegable decisions but were out foxed, I guess you can say.

I am bitter. I am glad to see you are not. I need some new clothes and shoes and a dental check up every once in a while. I might as well be asking for the moon because it isn't going to happen although we keep working as though it will. My kids haven't given up so I definitely won't but I do not accept this as my lot.....I am not greedy, I just want a sustainable and comfortable life. I know now I will never be able to retire although I've already worked for the best part of 39 years. I too struggle to remain a Democrat. More and more, actions of the Democrats resemble Republican traits. imho

edit: You are lucky to have the friends you do. We have helped friends and family in distress. On top of that my husband built his daughter and large family a gorgeous four thousand square foot home. My hubbie is a builder and craftsman...we even hauled the cherry wood from MN to fashion the elaborate kitchen. This home is now valued, four years later, for almost a million dollars although it was built for about ninety dollars a square foot. My husband was paid thirty three thousand....11 months of work. Now the daughter has HER house on the market! My husband felt that this was for his daughter so............then he built a second home in northern MN for my greedy twin and her husband,a republican state senator. After eighteen months and periods of no pay (wasn't good timing to withdraw from brother-in-law's 401k or something) we sold our place and returned to my husband's 'home town' in TX. Two times during the last debaucle we had to take out loans to pay our crew! The house had a little left to do but we literally could not stay in a depressed area any longer....thank God we left when we did. The rich get rich and the poor get poorer. My twin has told me I have made poor choices (marrying the men I did, quitting teaching to raise my family, my craft business which made more money than I ever did teaching, helping pay off my son's student loans and daughter's education cost and finally, a dying brother-in-law's chemo treatments. That's the reason we're in the situation we are in! Of course, as I write, she is at her vacation home enjoying the good life. Today, my husband is working a small job...been three weeks of employment so far...in 95 degree heat....but my sister is laying on the deck he built with a cool lake breeze. Yes, I am bitter.

[mdmc]

51. I wasn't bitter until you mentioned the dentist.

My teeth have been hurting for over three years, but there is nothing I can do about it.
My health insurance doesn't have any dental coverage.
I miss not having my teeth hurt.
For my birthday I asked for a dental exam from my parents. It was too expensive, so they gave me a camera.
Perhaps Santa will be more accommodating.
Now I'm a little bitter.
:hug:

[snappyturtle]

61. Sorry---didn't want you to become bitter only to understand, in my

case, why I am. :hug:

edit: Here's something good: I sent you a hug on my 5000th post!

[mdmc]

79. thanks!

How do you know how many posts you have made here?

[tekisui]

223. Just check your profile.

Click the icon that looks like a rolodex card. BTW, you have 18,235 posts!

[comtec]

190. Junior Colleges with dental programs are always looking for volunteers

When I went to DVC - an excellent dental assistant program - people went to the program to get their teeth done for like 5 bux (ok this was 15 years ago).
If you goto schools and training centers, and are willing to get the occasional bad haircut, and sub-par (but not damaging) dental work, you can save a great deal of money.

Luck!

i used to live in the SF bay area (Hayward for 2 years) as IT. I was a network tech, hardly a under-skilled worker! I drove all over god's green earth for temp jobs. They paid very well, but if it's not regular that money gets eaten up by rent and my car really fast!

Im very sympathetic with these people living in their cars. It's literally all they have.

To the asshole who had a two truck sized hole in his soul, that could be you.

it's often just a matter of bad luck. and with assholes like him, the government services that helped people looking to WORK their way out are disappearing.

I am a skilled worker with HIGH DEMAND skills, and I had a H E L L of a time finding work.
Often i was over qualified for the position, or perfect, but they wanted someone they could pay LESS!
I wasnt high enough level tech for admin work, and too high for entry level. My jobs often went to out of work system administrators because they could!

I went to county for medical for YEARS! Every 6 months re-upping. I have been on Unemployment far more than I care for, always searching for work. It took me SIX FUCKING MONTHS JUST TO EARN ENOUGH MONEY TO GO BANKRUPT!!!!!!!!

*ahem* sorry assholes like that piss me off....

Anyway all this pull yourself up bull shit is just spewed by people who don't give a rats ass about others.
people who are so scared of their own tenuous situation they stray away from the unlucky poor like they are diseased (and I admit to being like this IRL sometimes... and I'm always ashamed. My luck is so bad, and my time employed is so tenuous, that im just fearful)

but now, I'm ok. I always, ALWAYS give to anyone I see on the street, as long as I have change in my pocket.

I was nearly one of them.
I nearly am still.
I had to leave the US... I'm still paying back my family, its been 4 years.
Leaving is only an option when you have the money TO leave.
With gas where it is these people are literally trapped!
Many probably can't even afford to go to the part s of LA where they CAN afford to live.

:rant:

[InkAddict]

185. Snappyturtle - we forgot that we had the option to say "no"

We didn't need to provide help for our children's college education nor a well-rounded high school resume w/extra-curricular enrichment in athletics/music/computer camp, etc.... One is an adult at 18 with their own choices at 18 now, no? Those kids SHOULD have been aware they were to study and get full-ride academic scholarships; nothing less would warrant our continued "interest" in their lives.

In fact, if we had looked in our crystal balls more carefully, we would have known which occupations would be "bubbled" and we would have poured the funds saved by doing #1 above into our own education in various other non-outsourceable disciplines.

Furthermore, in doing so, we SHOULD have first made sure we could afford to provide everything necessary just up to the age of 18 before we had the kids in the first place(so long as they behaved, meaning they didn't rock the boat-load full of OUR rules and regs--if not, the strap or the boot should tame their bad choices), then well, they're on their own, period. See #1.

Of course, they're always welcome to spend their lives repaying us for our generosity and foresight and remain in our home, helping us out in their spare time instead of investing in their own education and hobbies, or shudder, a spouse. Why, indeed, would one want the latter when it's soooo nice at home. Don't ask, don't tell the lurid details of outside relationships, and all will be well.

Nor SHOULD a person's married only child be responsible to assist an elderly parent during their final days, and WE needed to plan for that eventuality too. That individual's "duties" should only be toward their spouse and kids. If otherwise, with or without those plans, they are ENMESHED, CO-DEPENDENT, AND IMMATURE. Why did one need to look after any other relatives either, a brother, sister, aunt, grandparent for that matter. If we had lived next door, this would have been lots easier, and it was our solemn duty to stay close, but the search for that well-paying job (how selfish) took us to other states, cities, and doncha know that that sick relative caused his own illness (or at least it should be clear that it was Their Time). That elderly parent SHOULD have made his/her own arrangements, investments, etc...for his/her own care, and, if he/she did not, could not, oh well...BOUNDARIES, PEOPLE, BOUNDARIES.

This "regret" we feel is just so much ammunition to the repukes and/or fundies since no one twisted our arms to provide what was most needed according to... - neither of the latter two groups have any apparent problem in determining that familial generosity is for suckers. Non-familial generosity should only be done when there's a self-serving benefit, a ROI, tax-deduction, or congregational approval.

Didn't we marry for better and/or for worse. One does not expect worse, only a committment and a responsible and negotiable division of labor and resources in meeting life's challenges together. Did you get an untouchable dowry so you could just leave the relationship if it did get worse. No doubt, if you been doing any of the above, you could certainly walk any day you chose.

They are just so morally superior for remaining within their boundaries, a fortress on their own little islands of self-sufficiency, and their empathy for others plights non-existant.

Like you, I'm not sure that Dems are all that much better, but my first-hand experience with these twisted people and their leaders' attitudes" leads me to that choice. Hope it remains a good one!

Need I place the sarcasm smilie on most of this bitter rant!

[snappyturtle]

265. No, you needn't add the 'sarcasm' smilie! All I can say in the end

after all these debaucles of my life is that, either acting as an individual or a spouse, I/we did the best we could at each stage of life. I guess I am no longer surprised by what others, relatives or not, will do in return. And, to answer your question, no, I did not get that untouchable dowry! I didn't even get a piece of the retirement I helped to build over 25 years but I did get the capital gains tax on six houses...this was JUST before the law changed. I remain hopeful that the future will be better!

[CrispyQ]

178. "If only wages had stayed up with those at the top...."

In Senator Byron Dorgan's book, "Take This Job & Ship It" he states that if minimum wage had kept up with CEO pay over the past 15 years, minimum wage would be $22.08 per hour.

[L0oniX]

13. Good time to have a van. Sleeping at the 57 Chevy Hotel or the Camaro Inn is a little cramped.

I've spent time living/sleeping in cars as a teenager. It's worse to be hugging a bush for the night.

[Mountainman]

23. I was homeless living in my car in San Diego. After a time some friends let me sleep on their

couch. Then I got unemployment and rented a room from a friend of theirs. I had no car left because the cops towed it and I could not afford to get it back. It was a worthless piece of junk anyway.

I also was an alcoholic, still am but sober. I cleaned up my act. Rode the bus to job interviews. My friends kids loaned me their wagon so when I went shopping for food I could buy more than I could carry. I was going to AA meetings and learned I had to do whatever it takes. I did what was in front of me to do. I got a job and with lot's of more ups and downs I am in a pretty good place today 20 some years later.

In all these things I learned that you have to try things to get out of your mess. There is no guarantee that what you try will get you out but if you don't try there is a guarantee that you won't get out. Lot's of trying and help from people and some luck and maybe you'll make it. You got to try something!

[EV_Ares]

24. Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and about what you personally have gone through

Mountainman. Everything you say is true, we all do have to try and sometimes if we are fortunate enough as you were, we need friends to stand with us to get out of a difficult environment or predicament.

What I am saying here and you probably know as well with what you have had to go through, is that the City can also be more of a friend to these people as it appears there are a lot of them who have fallen on their luck to help them out of their situation. Sure, we all know there are some who just don't try or don't care and just stagnate but not the larger percentage.

I think this is a very sad commentary on what is going on in our country right now and not all of these people are to blame for what has happened.

[bobbolink]

31. You're absolutely right.

We just haven't tried hard enough.

Slap us all a little harder, and I'm sure we'll try MORE.

:eyes:

[Mountainman]

85. If you are being sarcastic I don't appreciate it. I am saying that you got to try things

to get out of your mess. That is just the truth of it. No slapping no criticism just telling the truth. Take it for what it is worth.

[Carnea]

208. I'm sorry some of us aren't homeless anymore.... Hope that doesn't

kill your buzz.

The fact that many homeless people do get themselves out of this situation should inspire someone not piss them off. The fact it angers you says more about your situation than anything else.

[taught_me_patience]

43. Great story

Thanks for sharing.

[blues90]

33. People better get used to the idea rather than making people criminals

For being forced to live in their cars. I wish i had my old van just in case . I was going to get an old RV just in case , you never know when you might be on the street and at least a car is better than the sidewalk.

People are heartless , i know what it's like to live in my old van and it's not easy.

These days in the age of gas stations without restrooms even people who have a home are forced to take a piss off the road or where ever they can find a place.

People don't choose this as a way of life they are trying to get through this life the best they can. Give them a break.

Almost every inch of this country is owed by someone with their rules and laws so just where are these people to go?

This country is screwed up when they can't or won't even help other people who they can see have it hard enough.

What ever happened to that safety add that told people if you are driving and feel tired to pull over and rest, guess that too is against the law.

[bobbolink]

39. "This country" is US. We are allowing homelessness.

[blues90]

59. yes we do .

I don't recall homeless people back in the 50's and 60's or even the 70's . Certainly there were drunks in Chicago and the so called hobo's who chose to ride the rails as a way of life . It was not until the freak Reagan came along that this became a boom .

Here in calif I saw people all over the streets who were tossed out of mental institutions and people who could not find a job eneded up on the streets . There were always young runaways but not to the extent there are now.

When we moved here in 1981 there were a few people who we saw all the time but never people going through trash for food and there was still affordable homes. Now this is worse than I have even seen and it should never have been allowed to reach this point and I fear it will only get worse.

I have seen some of these shelters and I would not want to be in one , I would rather go it on the car thing , at least you decide.

These laws about living in your car are insane. What are people to do.

People don't care until they end up there then they have a change of heart.

[bobbolink]

153. Thank you for understanding, and more, for caring.

I'm so fucking fed up with the ignorance at DU that I could spit.

We are screwed. Period.

The only thing I take issue with in your reply is that people aren't homeless because of "mental illnesss"... that is a myth that is hurting ALL of us.

People were out of institutions in the 50s and 60s. THAT is NOT the "cause".

Other than that, I very much appreciate your words.

I'm just sick of the ignorance in the rest of the thread.

[blues90]

193. No, they are not homeless because of mental illness

I only referenced this because here in L.A. calif this was when we saw the rise in homelessness where it was right out there and was not such a hidden issue even though most people here still ignored it and lumped all the homeless together defining them as mentally ill which I know is not true or even close to true.

It was a visual rise in homeless people at least here in Hollywood.

[Hekate]

230. self delete

[bobbolink]

38. Simple and to the point: "They" (we 'Murkins) want us to DIE.

Disappear.

Simple.

It's what will make everyone happy.

Yet, when we GET THE HINT, then we're "mentally ill".

Wadda country....

[Cronus Protagonist]

46. Don't count on getting a honless non-owner's relief bill passed

They're too poor for the gubmint to help. See, they only help the rich folk, the people who own real estate. The homeless and the renters can go fuck theirselves.

[undeterred]

175. Exactly.

[libodem]

50. Has minimum wage made it up to $9.00 an hour yet?

Because it's taking about $50.00 to fill my car with gas. If the minimum wage is still around $7.00 that means you could work for an 8 hour shift to fill your tank. I use about a tank per week because I have to drive 70 miles at least one time during the week to help my mom. It takes a quarter of my gas for that trip, alone. Man, I could only imagine living out of my car.

[Carnea]

55. Well having done both there is a worlds diffeence between living in an RV and

living in a car.

[Fire Walk With Me]

62. Some of the homeless in that area (used to live there) are on bikes

because the cops hassle anyone who looks ready to set up anything resembling a place to stay. Somehow they've gotten hold of cheap bicycles.

Sickening attitudes toward the homeless...

[devilgrrl]

67. A sickening attitude all around.

You, can't afford it? Then f&#@ing move!!!!!

This world makes my stomach turn anymore! :puke:

[balantz]

88. Don't worry, the government will take care of them.

Our taxes paid companies like Halliburton richly to build plenty of gated communities.

When there are enough people who become a problem they will be shipped to their new quarters.

[devilgrrl]

101. What's wrong with Halliburton getting tax money? Who's going to built the debtors prisons?

Hippy... :P


btw, great avatar. Giorgio De Chirico was the man!

[balantz]

108. Hey, thanks, I wondered who the artist was. I just googled his art...good stuff!

It is a DU avatar.

I grew up there in your city in the 70's. Venice, San Gabriel Valley, etc.

Hippy...:hi:

[devilgrrl]

113. I see that you were able to pull yourself up and MOVE to a more affordable location!

Lucky you!

;-)

[balantz]

114. No, I floated here to the desert on the dusty gust of a drug addiction.

I am now clean but have been recently homeless and am still not far from that.

I miss L.A. from my youth. I haven't lived there since 1980.

[shrike]

112. For those on the thread who want people to move, here's a POV from someone who's done it

I have moved a total of three times chasing, various jobs. To different parts of the country, no less. I moved a fourth time when I got married. My advice would be, DON'T do it, unless the following conditions apply:

1. You have a job to go to. (Easier said than done.) You will find a number of obstacles in your path if you arrive without a job. Even if you HAVE a job it can be difficult. I can remember my first day on the job, going on my lunch hour to open a new bank account. (This was back in the days before ATMs, electronic banking.) The bank wanted proof of employment and actually called my new employer, to verify it.

2. You have a place to live, with people who will put up with you for an unspecified length of time. Prospective employers will want you to have an address. Good luck trying to rent an apartment without an income. The best you'll be able to do is cheap hotels and expensive hotels.

3. You have reliable transportation.

4. You have SOME money to get started with. Borrow it from friends, family, whatever you have to do.

5. Do your homework. DON'T move somewhere because it's cheap, or because you think it's nice. If the place is pretty, the wages tend to be low. IF the COL is low, you may still run into trouble. Apartments may be going begging because there are no jobs to be had.

6. Unfortunately, if you're in a new place where you know no one, people will try to take advantage of you, in so many ways. So while you are scrounging for work, you'll also be watching your back. Not a fun way to live.

I have a lot more to say on the subject, but that's enough for one thread. I suppose there are people can break all the above rules and get along fine. Bully for them. But most people are better off getting a place to stay with family or CLOSE friends, in an area of the country where the economy is not dismal. Striking out on your own is not what it's cracked up to be.

Also, the California woman featured in this article is on disability. I know a few people personally on disability, and they're on it for good reason: they can't work. That's a whole other issue: people who are too old, too sick. And don't get me started on the plight of the mentally ill in this country.

[devilgrrl]

116. Thank you for sharing your experience...

I had figured that getting back on your feet isn't as easy as those who never had to deal with such a situation suggest.

:thumbsup:

[northernlights]

138. bingo!

You absolutely nailed it.

If the cost of living is affordable, $10/hour is considered a good job and the state allows companies to do anything they want to employees. I mean this literally -- after I was poisoned, phone harrassed, privacy invaded, and my animals assaulted, our state labor dept. told me, "They can do anything they want, and if you don't like it get another job." That was the Maine labor dept.!!!!!

The locals can do anything they want -- trespass, cut down your trees, case your house, throw trash on your property, steal your mail, steal your property, trash your property with a bulldozer -- and the police will look the other way. I sadly know this from direct experience. In fact, the forest ranger told the neighbor and the police that I gave the neighbor permission to hold a burn party in my horse's pasture!!!!! and I found myself fighting to protect that 1/2 acre.

AND AS TO THE WOMAN'S 5 DOGS -- they're probably the only thing keeping her going right now. Keeping them sheltered and fed keeps her from suicide.

And exactly where would some of you have her leave them anyway? An overcrowded shelter? Across the country, the animal shelters are overfull, although cats seem to be the biggest problem so far. First to be abandoned, I guess. Our local shelter has them stacked up in crates in the offices and entryway because they've run out of space in the regular cathouse. Local pet stores are taking in some to try to find them homes. It's just a matter of a little more time before the dogs will be the same.

[varelse]

166. If I could recommend a reply

I'd rec this one. Thanks for the common-sense response to some of the less than compassionate comments on this thread. :)

[MedleyMisty]

126. Undergroundpanther always has wonderful links

Here are two that explain some of the replies to this.

http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v3n2/justworld.html

http://www.ibiblio.org/rcip/invuln.html

Better to blame victims than to actually do anything to help them or accept that you could find yourself in the same situation some day.

[EV_Ares]

129. Thanks for those links, eom.

[devilgrrl]

132. Great post and expect the sound of crickets from those of whom you are addressing

http://nature-downloads.naturesounds.ca/audio/sleepy_cricket_night_preview_naturesounds-ca.mp3

[knitter4democracy]

127. There's been talk of this in Michigan, too.

I've definitely seen more cars in parking lots at night and in random places out in the country. It's really sad. You'd think we'd be working harder on affordable housing to make sure no one had to live like that.

[Phillycat]

130. The difference there: in the winter, the homeless in LA won't freeze to death.

:cry:

[knitter4democracy]

142. I know. We lost many last winter. Welcome to America.

It was in the news a few times. Last winter was really cold, and we had storms where many lost power more than once. It was bad, and there were people who froze to death.

I still can't believe this is the country I grew up in. I remember my parents being worried in the late 70s, but even my mom admits times are worse now than she's ever seen. It's really bad.

[Hannah Bell]

251. yep. walking the alleys here, i see plenty of campers in backyards.

and on parking strips.

edit: lived in, not just parked.

[knitter4democracy]

269. Saw a few today in downtown Kalamazoo.

Sad. I worry about when the heat gets really bad this summer and when the cold hits again next winter and what they do during tornado alarms.

[theboss]

136. What I've never really understood about these situation is don't these folks have friends?

I mean, if I lost my gig and my house, I would have these options for at least, say, six months at a time:

1. My folks
2. My fiance
3. My grandmother
4. My aunt
5. My best friend
6. Another friend
7. A co-worker
8. A cousin of mine
9. Another cousin
10. Another friend

The last thing I would do is just live in my car. Is it a pride thing? How can you even get a job without an address for your resume?

[devilgrrl]

139. Golly, I guess she just isn't you, is she?

Don't you hate that?

:eyes:

[theboss]

147. No, I'm just confused

How many people in this world really have no one? She had a job. She lived in a neighborhood. There isn't a neighbor who can put her up for a few weeks?

[Blue_Tires]

191. some people don't have a lot of relatives, or maybe they are not close...

if you have a distant cousin you haven't seen in 20 years living 1000 miles away, do you really think he/she would welcome you with open arms?

same with friends/coworkers...i know it is easy to be hypothetical and think they always have your back, but when you are in REAL trouble, genuine trouble, don't be surprised at how many turn their back and let you rot

[Carni]

217. YEP!

You said it! Sad but true!

[Hannah Bell]

253. lots of people have no one. particularly as they age.

and as you age if you don't have family or very close friends, neighbors & casual friends don't fill the gap.

people don't want to take on someone else's problems.

[knitter4democracy]

270. You'd be surprised how many have no one.

Hubby once had a patient who'd been in the hospital almost an entire year (many, many acute problems all the time). Not once did he ever have a visitor. The nurses basically adopted him and make him an afghan, but he had no one.

If you never marry, come from a small or estranged family, and your parents die, whom are you supposed to move in with? Friends might not be able to take you in. If you did marry and had kids who died before you did or are estranged or moved halfway around the world or whatever, you can't end up on their couches without money.

I know I'd take a neighbor in, but I know my next door neighbors wouldn't. Quite the Republicans and very protective of their turf.

[raccoon]

173. Some family members/friends won't let you live with them.

I was out of work for ages, and my own mother never offered to let me stay with her.

[cascadiance]

180. Many DON'T have these aquaintances you say you have...

THAT is the problem.

If their parents have been offed by street crime (and they were brought up by a single mom also on the streets). They don't have "co-workers", and their cousins, etc. are also on the streets as well. They might not have all of those "nice" rescue options you have.

I was watching a series of shorts on Link TV called "Skid Row" which does illuminate this problem a bit more.

And they point to this being a bigger problem in L.A. than in other cities like New York. They noted that many years back, New York and Los Angeles started out with a similar sized homeless population. The difference being that since that time, New York has been able to get many more off of the streets than Los Angeles has by various policies including providing them shelter, etc. so that they don't have an equivalent "skid row" that Los Angeles does any more.

Instead of trying to find suitable and enough interim shelter for all of those homeless now in Los Angeles, the city policy makers have instead sought to "gentrify" the downtown area, and have tried to just "kick out" a lot of the home less there as the rich folk move in to their new apartment lofts there. That just relocates the homeless problem to other parts of the city and makes it worse, as those being displaced are probably worse off in neighborhoods they don't know and have to spend that much more time "surviving" than they did before rather than trying to rebuild their lives at all.

I think most of us can't fully understand or grasp what it must like to have to live and survive daily on the street with no money or other acquaintances that could help deal with the daily problems of keeping warm, staying fed, staying healthy, staying safe, and dealing with and avoiding the harmful elements of the environment people are directly exposed to there. Thinking about getting a job is a secondary priority for most in that environment. Give them some temporary housing, no matter how modest or minimal, would take a big chunk of these concerns away from them, that might allow some to get back on track again.

[theboss]

201. Darlene Knoll (the chick in the article) was not living on Skid Row

A few months back, she presumably had a three-bedroom house and an RV. (For comparison's sake, I have a two-bedroom Condo and an '01 Civic).

I understand the cylce of poverty.

This article has NOTHING to do with the cycle of poverty. This is about a formely middle class woman now without a house.

[Carni]

216. You find out you don't have as many friends as you thought

Without elaborating...we lost our very lucrative business of 20 years 2 years ago.

It was AMAZING how scarce many of our affluent *friends* and family became during that VERY difficult time. After years of being everybody's bank all of a sudden these people just seemed to disappear into thin air (and believe me they loved us when we were fulfilling the banker role, before THEY were making any money)

APPARENTLY people don't like a downer...they seem to be afraid that it's catching or something.

I am not saying that FOR SURE your family and friends would bail on you should you find yourself in a really rough situation, but it does happen, everyone just "loves a winner" after all.

[kineneb]

218. The poor are often more generous than the rich

because they know what it is like to be poor. They may have little to share, but they will often do so, anyway. Amazing, that.

[Carni]

220. Yes, it certainly appears that way! eom

[eridani]

228. The sociopathic shitstain element here wants them to move somewhere alone

--no friends.

[theboss]

232. If she doesn't have friends, moving somewhere else might make sens

She has an RV and a government check. Move where life is cheaper. I make good money and probably couldn't afford LA. I'm moving from DC in part because of the cost of living here.

[eridani]

235. Make up your mind. Which is it?

Move where there are jobs--oops, lots of other folks want to move there for the same reason, thereby driving up the cost of housing? Or move to where there is cheap housing, cheap because no one wants to move to someplace where there aren't very many jobs?

Assuming that a 1978 RV is capable of any kind of serious distance in the first place.

[theboss]

237. Does she even need a job?

She's on disability. Can't she just go to, like, Needles and live with Snoopy's brother?

I have no earthly idea what the solution is.

[Duer 157099]

255. People on disability need to be under their doctor's care

in order to continue receiving disability. Consider there are more facts you don't know or understand before offering your trite and stupid comments.

[theboss]

277. Well, clearly you are up to speed on this person you never met before

Forgive me.

[eridani]

276. Disability won't pay for the gas to Needles, assuming a 1978 trailer is even capable of trip n/t

[eridani]

260. Who can afford to drive a 1978 RV any significant distance these days? n/t

[Carnea]

239. Well she clearly doesn't have any real friends she is living her her RV....

Do I need the banghead icon here?

[Duer 157099]

256. Perhaps you'll have the opportunity to find out for yourself

You may think you have all these back-up resources, until you actually need them.

Then, don't be surprised when your FAMILY MEMBER offers to drive you to a homeless shelter, and they'll feel they are really helping you.

[Forkboy]

141. These threads always warm my heart.

:puke:

[devilgrrl]

143. Don't they just make you feel warm & fuzzy?

It's nice to know that if anyone here were in a similar situation, they have only themself to blame.

Why, it's just heart warming.

:sarcasm:

[theboss]

149. I'm not blaming her

I'm just always befuddled by people who lack any type of safety net either with family or friends.

[lildreamer316]

222. For example:

I'm not homeless, nor is it looming in my future. But if it was:

1) My closest family lives over two hours away, which is exactly two hours ALSO distant in a different direction from where my husband works (think a triangle with our house at the top). If we had to move to them, we'd be spending the same amt. in gas to get to work that we are now; maybe more because atm we live close to the hwy; whereas my (DISTANT; communicate twice-a-year) relatives live kinda in the boonies.

2)Here's a good example of my friends: My best friend is living with us because she is a single mom who can't afford an apartment when she works EIGHTY HOURS A WEEK (and it took her three months to find this job!). I have tickets to a theater show for tommorrow night that I've been looking forward to for months, and saved mightily for the tix. NOT A SINGLE ONE of my 'friends' will babysit for me (I ask them to oh, maybe once a year and I am NOT exaggerating!) because they have other things to do. I've asked at least 10 people.
So, I am so very sure they would welcome me into their homes if I was losing mine! Seeing as how my child is such a burden on them for two and a half hours.:eyes:

WE have been the saftey net for many of our friends; I have had at least four stay here with us until they got on their feet. I believe maybe one of them would actually be willing to help us in a reversed situation, but from what I know of his situation, he probably would not be able to anwyay.

And I swear, I'm not a raging asshole, and neither is my husband.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

258. I used to get sick a lot with sinus infections and bronchitis.

I would start barfing uncontrollably from the drainage. I got dehydrated and hypertensive. I had a few friends. They worked and couldn't take me to the ER. Many times I had to drive myself to the emergency room, park outside the door to the emergency room. There was no one standing around outside the emergency room, such as a cop or security guard. I would sit there and open the driver's side door and barf on the pavement for a few minutes before I could get out of the car and drag myself into the emergency room. This was on weekends and major holidays when the doctor's office was not open.

Then, after an hour or two of pounding headaches and wondering if my head would explode, they would see me and give me an antibiotic shot and a sedative so I wouldn't throw up anymore.


I had no one to come get me and I had to drive myself home. They didn't want me to do that, but I had no choice. I promised them I would drive straight home, very carefully. Driving myself home from the emergency room is one of those exciting occurrences in life that I don't want to repeat.


Now I have someone in my life to look after me if I'm sick. If I had not taken him in, he would have been homeless and under a bridge because he couldn't find a job either. Between the two of us we have six college degrees and quite a few skills. Neither of us has health insurance, so we have said to hell with the system.


When I was looking for a job and my parents were alive, I could not have stayed with them, because their house was so full of trash, junk and dust that I got sick just visiting them. There were no jobs in their rural area anyway. There was literally no place to sit down and do anything. There were paths through the house between the junk. And they wouldn't let me throw anything away. I had to do it all after they died. It's been a herculean task and has taken several years.


Lots of people do not have anyone they can rely on. Most people are so busy working they can't take care of anyone but their immediate family.

[Phillycat]

144. Can you believe...

dude at the top of the thread just spouting, word for word, 100%, the "pull yourself up by your bootstrap" Repuke philosophy?

Remember when this website was for liberals? :D

[EV_Ares]

145. You caught that too, there are a couple here that seem to be really upset

at any compassion being shown for someone down on their luck. Can't understand that logic other than just being here to argue.

[Carnea]

164. Yeah cause compassion is so much more helpful than actual practical solutions...

:eyes:

[EV_Ares]

172. Yeah, will we have seen your solution and understanding. Compassion is

identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives. You have to be able to do that before you can come up with any viable and lasting solutions in helping someone out of a bad situation. That usually has better long term effects than just kicking someone around. As for them moving, how do you know they aren't even planning on that at a later more practical time when they can do it.

I am sure you loved it when GWB used the word "compassionate conservative". Probably was ok then.

[Carnea]

174. There are worse fates than "Not living in LA"

The insults against middle class people living within their means is disgusting.

Guess what... if I moved to LA I would be living out of my car as well.

I guess that makes me a bad person in your eyes cause I choose to live in the "Wrong" part of the country.

The snobbery on this thread is disgusting... "I would rather be homeless ion LA than living in nowheresville" :puke:

[EV_Ares]

176. Well it appears what is disgusting are the attitudes of those such as

yourself of which is fortunately just you and 1 or 2 others who seem to have a disdain for those in a difficult situation which also makes me curious that if you find our attitudes on this board disgusting, why are you here. After all this is DU not Free Republic.

Who the hell ever said they were not trying to get out of LA, you have to have somewhere to go before you can go there and on top of that you have to have the means to be able to go there. If you say you would have to live in your car, possibly coming up with gas money is not always that easy for you right now.

I notice you said you choose to live where you live. Well maybe at one time, some of these people made a good decision on choosing to live where they currently are or they grew up there, medical bills, death, or whatever could have thrown them into their current situation. What most on this board agree on is try to find out their situation and then help them to get to wherever they need to go to improve their situation instead of kicking them while they are down and blaming them for their circumstances.

Blaming the victim is a way of distancing oneself from an unpleasant occurrence and thereby confirming one's own invulnerability. By labeling or accusing the victim, the victim can be seen as different from oneself. Some can reassure themselves by thinking, "because I am not like him/her, that would never happen to me." Of course, that is not rational. Anyone can be victimized. Victim blaming is disrespectful and harmful.

[Carnea]

177. But we are not blaming the victim we are pointing out the obvious.

The "victim" currently has a low and fixed income IE: disability checks and she has a working RV and five dogs. Perhaps an RV park outside of the city with a low rent and place for her dogs to run would be a better choice...

I mean this living in a parking lot isn't working for her is it. Clearly she needs to move. This is a humane solution. I'm not sure exactly what wringing my hands and saying I have compassion without giving a doable solution accomplishes,

But I guess cause I don't blame the big bad world I'm not as liberal as thou....

[EV_Ares]

179. Again, you don't get it or you don't want to get it. I realize you don't like our

attitudes on this board and you don't agree with compassion and you totally ignore anything anyone says so it is pointless to try and explain it to you because you evidently do not want to understand and only prefer to throw the "bums" "poor people down on their luck" out.

First and again, who ever said they liked living in the parking lot. Who ever said these people did not want to move. Whoever said they were blaming the world. The only one that did I know of is you.

Yeah, I will stick with this board's overall philosophy that you first have to understand the situation, how that situation developed and what alternatives do you have or can find to get out of that situation and on to a better life. To me anyway, there is nothing wrong in trying to help someone out of a bad situation and therefore, assist them in achieving a better life for themselves which is better for us all.

You on the other hand, I understand would just rather kick the hell out of them and that would take care of it. Yeah, I can understand why you are disgusted at this boards attitudes.

[Carnea]

183. Nobody said throw any bums out... she has an RV and an Income.

Perhaps she should look into an RV park in a more affordable part of the country. :banghead: :banghead:

[EV_Ares]

184. Thats exactly what you said. "Move" without your even knowing anything

about the situation. Wow, a little dense are we. Look, just forget it because we know where your thoughts are and you have no intention of changing them.

You have already said this board's attitudes disgust you. That pretty much says it all doesn't it.

Good Day because I am not going to spend my time arguing with a door knob, I get it you don't give a dam about anyone's situation other than your own, etc.

[Forkboy]

151. I can believe it. There's always at least one troll in these threads who can't hide their suckitude.

:)

[Phillycat]

154. A week or so ago, I finally started using ignore in a way that works.

In the past, I've never been able to put someone on ignore and leave them there, because we were usually fighting about something and I would take them back off ignore to see what they were saying and then put them back on. About a week ago, it finally occurred to me, "My life would be better if _____ didn't exist in it. And nothing they say could possibly be interesting enough for me to care, because they are assholes." And now I put them on ignore as soon as they say something so douche-y that I know they are beyond redemption, and it is AWESOME. It's changed DU for me. I'm no longer a prisoner to these fucks! :D

[Chovexani]

267. Don't they, though?

Apparently this place turned into Libertarian Douchebag Underground when I wasn't looking. :banghead:

[JanMichael]

146. Jesus Christ on rollerblades. WTF has

happened to this really once neat oasis on the internet for liberals?

[Bluerthanblue]

150. what scares me, is wtf has happened

to this world-

I hope it's a change in posters, but I fear it is a change in people.

:( :shrug: :(

hope I'm wrong- totally wrong.

peace~

[EV_Ares]

156. I still want to believe in the overall good of people. The right-wingers have always had it in

for the poor or those on welfare, saying they all are lazy and there because it is their fault. There is always going to be a percentage of those that will take advantage of the system, human nature. However, overall most are not there of their choosing and only want to be able to improve their lives and be on their own, also, human nature. Hell, JK Rowlings wrote Harry Potter, was on welfare at one time in her life and now I believe has just recently been named the youngest female billionaire in the world. Not all welfare recipients are cheats and lazy and not all can become billionaires.

"Unemployed and living on state benefits, Rowling completed her first novel in many cafes (e.g. Nicolson's Cafe and Elephant House Cafe), whenever she could get Jessica to fall asleep.<12><33> In a 2001 BBC interview, Rowling denied the rumor that she wrote in local cafes to escape from her unheated flat, remarking, "I am not stupid enough to rent an unheated flat in Edinburgh in midwinter. It had heating." Instead, as she stated on the American TV program A&E Biography, one of the reasons she wrote in cafes was because taking her baby out for a walk was the best way to make her fall asleep.<33>"

All of us need a helping hand at one time or another. I just don't believe in kicking someone while they are down.

[Carnea]

165. But she is already on benefits (Disability) is it enough hell no.

But she can live anywhere in the country with disability. In addition she is living in an old RV. It's not the greatest living in the world I have defiantly had apartments that were worse. And it's a stretch to call her homeless (she is more lot less). Should she move to a place with a nice climate cheap lot rent and room for her dogs? Yeah.

[Bluerthanblue]

192. perhaps you've never really been there- or been 'near' there-

your perspective would change a LOT.

It is so easy for those who sit on the shore to tell those drowning to "just keep going"- maybe you made it with no-undertow- the swells weren't as high, the sharks not circling you- maybe you didn't panic, or cramp up- you might be someone who is a natural athelete, so the swim is no big deal.
Whatever the reason, people by nature do NOT choose suffering and struggling over success. My babies all sought comfort and nurturing when they cried before they could speak. They didn't cry to feel uncomfortable- or try to avoid what they needed to survive. Humans aren't made to enjoy suffering. We may learn to expect it- but if you give someone a real chance to make it, and encouragement rather than judge them as 'defective' for not having the same 'luck'- perspective-drive- as you, I believe you'll be surprised at how much difference that in itself makes.

I encourage you to really spend some time working with those who find themselves 'in need of housing'- what you learn, about yourself and others will surprise and forever change you- if you have the courage and humility to let it.

peace~

[Carnea]

194. No I've been there.

I do disagree with one thing you said.

"Whatever the reason, people by nature do NOT choose suffering and struggling over success."

People choose that all the time. Now whether it is out of nature or because something broke inside of them since they were babies some people are self destructive.... Hell I know many.... including at times myself. :evilfrown:

[Carni]

219. How do you know the damned RV can travel any distance?

Just because this woman can motor from one area of LA to another, doesn't mean the RV isn't some big piece of crap that wouldn't make it into another less expensive area--never mind another state.

We have no idea what this woman's actual plight is.

[theboss]

224. Which is not stopping everyone on both sides of this discussion from speculating wildly

Why can't she just move to wherever it was that James Garner lived in the Rockford Files?

[EV_Ares]

155. I have been wondering now for a while as well. It looks like some of them

have been on here for a while, build up some posts then do just as you have seen. It is not hard to tell them when you start paying attention to their posts.

[Greyhound]

157. Threads like this bring them out.

These are the "Raygun Democrats", IOW, republiks that want a kinder face on their fascism, and want the rules to apply to apply to everyone but them.

"I've got mine, fuck you"

[AllieB]

171. Barbara Ehrenreich's 'Nickel and Dimed: On Not Getting By in America'

Some of you should read it.

Some people do not have family to fall back on, or neighbors that are better off than them that can lend a hand. 50 years ago it may have been possible to pull oneself out of poverty; it's nearly impossible today.

[AngryOldDem]

182. That should be required reading for EVERYBODY. nt

[defendandprotect]

206. And that was written quite some while ago --- things even worse now . . .

[knitter4democracy]

271. I totally agree.

Required reading indeed. Hell, if I were still teaching, I'd cover it.

[noonwitch]

195. We need to refund Section 8 programs

Well-run Section 8 programs are great for everyone-the client gets low rent, the landlord gets a subsidy, and the program inspects the housing regularly to ensure that it is meeting quality standards.

[tishaLA]

221. The Section 8 situation is fucked

Big time. The federal funding for it decreased 30% a few years ago because of the city's gross mismanagement of it: fully one-third of the federal funds were not dispersed. The city takes WEEKS to inspect apartments, leaving voucher holders and landlords in the lurch. The initial dispersement of funds takes months, so landlords are getting only minimal rent from the tenant.

I am a Section 8 tenant; I managed to get Section 8 only because I had been homeless for 16 months and, during that time, I spent 9 months waiting to get a voucher. When I finally received the voucher, it took me another 4 months to find a place that would take it, then another 2 months before the city inspected and passed the place. I'm really fortunate, to be truthful--I have an amazing place in a newly-rehabbed building with more amenities than any apartment I have ever lived in (and I have had nice apartments in the past)--but there is no reason the process keeps everyone involved up in the air the way it does.

[Selatius]

238. That's what happens when greedy politicians get ahold of a program they don't like and fuck it up.

They defund it to make it run inefficiently, and then they use the crappiness of the program as an excuse to privatize the operation to a firm that is most likely staffed by close friends and associates. That way, they get a check from the government, and the taxpayer has to pay more.

If they can't defund the program outright, then they fuck it up by adding on rules and regulations that don't make sense except to make the program run poorly, and then they use it running poorly as an excuse to defund the sucker and drive it into the ground to make it ripe for privatization or simply to abolish it altogether.

[knitter4democracy]

272. And then there are the Section 8 landlords.

My dad was a landlord for many years, and when he had to sell one of his lots, he sold it to another landlord who took in Section 8 in the new building he built. My dad hated that guy--he never took care of his property, he didn't light it properly, and it made Dad's rentals look bad. Dad always said it wasn't the Section 8 renters but the landlords that were the problem.

[defendandprotect]

204. Homelessness came in with Reagan and an undercutting of the safety nets ---

and they are becoming a hidden part of our society as homelessness is being made illegal ---

These people have few choices --- they can turn to religion which is where a lot of the $$
is being funneled thru --

They can go into programs which remove them from their former areas --

They can risk having their children taken from them --

[Zomby Woof]

229. It reminds me of the last time a Bush was in the WH

Entire families living in cars, parking wherever they could hope for temporary refuge, and holding on to their fragile dignity in excruciatingly trying circumstances. I saw it in Seattle at the turn of the 90's, and here we are again. It was nationwide then, and now.

Living in L.A. now, I am seeing the edges of the net fray and tear. Joblessness in CA is at 6.8%, and economists are not seeing a recovery for at least 2 years, which is a lifetime when hanging on to the precipice. Mortgages are defaulting at record rates. We're in a major sub-prime free-fall zone.

They could be you or me. Most of us are a few paychecks or a defaulted mortgage away from the fate of our neighbors like above. It's humbling, and it's heartbreaking. It's not just a matter of "choice" or "bootstraps" as simplistic cartoon right-wingers will dismissively charge. You can't just sink into the floor and wish them away, either.

They're not "them", they're us. We lose sight of that, and we are fucked right out the door, aren't we?

[Orsino]

231. "We've heard about drug dealing and prostitution in them."

And welfare queens. We heard something about welfare queens.

[Two Americas]

234. this is an utter mystery to me

Why can poverty and homelessness never be discussed without the entire thread being trashed out, and with bootstrap libertarian "personal responsibility" talking points driving the discussion off topic? The same talking points and slogans and one-liners over and over and over again. Don't we hear those enough as it is everywhere else? It makes it virtually impossible for the topic of poverty to ever be considered here or discussed, because everyone is immediately put on the defensive and spends their time arguing against the same reactionary and dumbed down lowest common denominator talking points. Talking points that never come up anywhere else, that never can be adequately countered without taking the thread off topic, that are never supported or defended in any serious or in-depth way, but are just thrown like hand grenades onto the threads until everyone is disgusted and leaves or angry and fires back.

Why can poverty not be discussed here?

[Carnea]

241. Because people keep trying to give those in poverty some strange sainthood that

absolves them of any ownership of their lives. And some others on this board feel that we should treat homeless people like children or perhaps pets.

As a result those of us who have been poor and homeless give some practical advice on getting out of that situation.

(And despite what you might heard implied from these threads being homeless is fucked up and it means on some level you have failed. It is not some lifestyle choice. It's something that should be avoided by sane adults.)

I'm also not sure when "personal responsibility" stopped becoming a Liberal Talking point and became a Libertarian one. Libertarians are those crazies that want to privatize the fire department . Why give them personal responsibility they will just fuck it up.

I am a proud liberal and member of the Democratic Party and I believe in ones own life taking responsibility for your actions is often the first step to fixing what you want to change.

Otherwise you blame everyone but yourself for being homeless and guess what? That does dick to get you out of homelessness.

Some people are more eloquent and polite than I am. If you find yourself homeless you can get out of it. Not by blaming the past but by working on the future and asking for help.

And to those who don't believe that. Tough. I am a liberal I believe in the overall goodness of people. Go preach you negative hatred over on the Republican side.

[Two Americas]

246. smash the crap out of them then

Then by all means smash the crap out of them, dominate every thread about poverty, force your agenda on everyone, and make it all about you and your personal experience and your definition of liberalism.

Far be it from me to say that you are smashing the crap out of them, dominating every thread about poverty, forcing your agenda on everyone, and making it all about you and your personal experience and your definition of liberalism - all of which makes it very difficult to discuss the issue - because you are RIGHT by God and therefore it is OK for you to smash the crap out of them, dominate every thread about poverty, force your agenda on everyone, and make it all about you and your personal experience and your definition of liberalism.

What was I thinking? I guess you are right and I was wrong.

[Rex]

249. It's not that, some people really hate the poor and the down trodden.

They believe that if you are poor, it is your own fault and you should be ashamed and are a failure in life. Don't know how they sleep at night.

[Two Americas]

252. I think so

Interesting how people who did climb out of poverty are the first sometimes to blame others. I think that is because they went through some sort of process, similar to what some addicts do, of becoming a "new" person and to some extent hating the old person they once were. Getting out of the pain they were in required them to reject the person they were, or they thought that it did. Anyone in pain now, they apply the same standard and get angry and impatient with any other ideas. They probably also live in fear of falling back into their "old thinking," and so becoming poor again and then being back in pain, so they can't tolerate people talking about this and even hinting that there could be another way to look at this. The comments don't even need to be directed at them - they must be searched out and destroyed wherever they are.

Their "old thinking" made them poor, and new thinking got them out of poverty. All must now adopt the new thinking. They hate their old self, and so also hate others whom they assume must also be like their old self. What is really weird is that people sometimes call this "love" in the Orwellian world we live in now. "I loved myself enough to hate my old self so my new and improved self could come through, and now life is grand except for this little problem I can't seem to get rid of - to keep on this 'high' I am on, it seems that I have to 'tough love' the shit out of everyone else or I 'come down' from the 'high.'"

You know what else? They are probably not very happy with this "new thinking" solution and with the "new self." Otherwise why be so angry and defensive? If it had really "worked" for them, if they were truly happy, they could just quietly and humbly share it with others, no? Maybe they think that to stay out of poverty now requires them to be eternally hostile and angry toward their "old self" and see their old self in every impoverished person, real or imagined.

Magical thinking in any case, as well as projection, and very closely aligned with the Reagan bootstrap libertarian "personal responsibility" cruel and anti-social dogma of the right wing.

[EV_Ares]

262. Thanks Two Americas for your posts. This post and thread was going ok

until a couple of people for whatever reason wanted it appeared to trash it and get it off topic. What their motive is remains to be seen I guess because I cannot see any motive for attempting to find solutions, helping those who need help at the present and assist them in being able to live a decent life as they and we all deserve.

[Rex]

248. So if you are homeless, you have failed at some level. Riigggghtt.

Keep believing that lie, the Owners of America can't be any happier with that on. More libertarian garbage IMO. :eyes: I cannot believe the horrible attitudes by some DUrs. Sainthood? How about a little pity, seems in short supply around this thread.

[Hannah Bell]

254. nope, you're an asshole.

the documented fact is that homelessness, like violent crime, mental illness & a host of other ills, rises in hard times & drops in good times. it also rises or drops according to the socio-economic structure of the society.

individual actions & "responsibility" can in some cases bring one person out of homelessness, but individual actions do NOTHING to reduce the overall level of homelessness when society is structured to create it.

you can verify with historic & intercultural comparisons. the rate of homelessness is highly variable in time & space, & it's not because of changes in people's sense of responsibility.

[Duer 157099]

257. No, I'm afraid you are WRONG, some people cannot get themselves out

just because perhaps you did, or you know someone who did, does not mean that EVERYBODY can!

Hell, if I know a millionaire, should I assume that EVERYBODY can be a millionaire? (I'm sure you subscribe to that belief too)

WTF is wrong with you people?

And when people at the end of their rope succumb to suicide, then everyone cries and wonders why they didn't ask for help. It's a fucking comedy.

[EV_Ares]

261. And all you have done is trash and kick them down. Nobody on here has

said anything about treating them like pets. Again, something you came up with. Everytime someone comes up with possible solutions and suggestions that might work to help them, you chime in with why don't they just move.

You constantly refrain from anything about helping people to better themselves. Your solution "just kick them out".

[EV_Ares]

264. If there is anyone who is on the right-wing republican side, it appears to

be you.

[knitter4democracy]

273. Excuse me?! What practical advice have you given?

Your advice is to move. With what money, with what support networks, with what infrastructure--you never answer that. You just tell people to move without dealing with the far bigger complexities on the other end.

Have you ever worked in a shelter? Have you ever sat and talked with people who happen to be homeless? The ways into homelessness are many, and it's not always to just "pull yourself up by your bootstraps." Many who are homeless are sick, chronically so, with massive illness that cost a lot of money. Many who are homeless actually do have jobs and are working their asses off trying to dig themselves out of the pit they're in--while the rest of society is working just as hard to keep them there.

The rich get richer and the poor get screwed. That's our system. In order for the rich to get richer, they have the screw the poor and keep them poor. It's not that there's a finite amount of money, but it's definitely that the rich have to pay workers less, charge more for needed services to make that extra dime of profit, and charge more for rent to make the rental popular. It's about conspicuous consumption and not caring about those who make the shirts, shoes, and provide the service. That's our system, and that's why there are homeless in our communities.

[Danger Mouse]

280. You are absolutely positively a disgusting human being.

[Danger Mouse]

281. Haha, you got TS'ed, looks like you're not a 'liberal' at all!!!

:rofl: good riddance, rescumlican!

[Hannah Bell]

244. that's why those people keep coming round.

here, & elsewhere. so the discussion never gets very far.

i'm wondering if it's not a better tactic just to ignore the assholes & keep posting info, for those who might be interested.

one thing - the more people & sectors in trouble, the less folks who'll be believing it's just a matter of bootstraps.

[EV_Ares]

263. Hannah, you might have a point because I wasted a lot of time with

one of the three on this post disrupting it. As you can see the one poster in a thread actually even said this board disgusts her. How can she then say later she is a proud liberal democrat if this board disgusts her. I think they have been outed for their real beliefs.

[devilgrrl]

266. Oh, you mean this one?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3510902&mesg_id=3514539

Yeah, you got that right! :thumbsup:

BTW, Mr. Carnea finally had his pizza delivered, goodbye to bad ribbish! http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=221893

[EV_Ares]

268. Wow, hey thanks, now that makes my day even with the market hitting the

way it is. I never catch those things but I was wondering about how these people as one of the other posters said seem to come out of the woodwork and start doing what they did with this thread. I was stupid for wasting my time with one yesterday who I think you had some words for as well. It was kind of strange as Two Truck you know was the first one, then this guy comes on and takes over and starts answering and arguing for Two Truck who evidently wrecked his truck or something because he just disappeared.

Anyway, thanks again for that little notification.

Just for your information, this sort of thing is something that kind of hits me hard because I know someone at work who went through a really tough time as the result of some bad breaks. I myself have always been fortunate and I try to keep reminding myself of that. Anyway I don't think this person would have made it without the help of friends. Sure, it is draining, time consuming and hard to help someone work through those difficulties but I believe as a decent human being, it is part of our job here on earth to be there for those less fortunate than ourselves. Sure, there are some beyond help and not willing to help themselves. You do what you can, then move on to those who want, need and appreciate the assistance. To make a long story short, this person is back in his place in society and I know he will be there for someone if they need some help.

You just don't say move your fucking ass out of here or there, go away. Dam, still pissed at those idiots.

Sorry for the rant but as Obama says, "Fired Up -- Ready To Go"

[Blue_Tires]

285. i'm gonna miss his Wonder Woman sig...

[knitter4democracy]

274. I'm with you, Two Americas.

I don't get it, either. Although, I will admit, I have learned far more about the causes and issues of poverty since joining DU than I ever did anywhere else. If people would just listen and try to understand life from another point of view . . .

[Deja Q]

284. Libertarians are like parrots, only stupid.

A parrot has a brain and can do more than repeat what it's heard.

Libertarians just sit there, spout hand-picked verses, and then spin every situation to fit those words.

I'm now thinking of a Libertarian I once knew. He drives a SUV and was whinging about gas prices back then. What must he be thinking now and who is he blaming?

While Libertarians do make good points at times, they are too narrow to consider other facets of reality. They are not family values-oriented. Far from it.

[Danger Mouse]

283. That rat-bastard Reagan is where this all started.