Women Dropping Out of Science Careers

[Liberal_in_LA]

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=5227334&page=1

Women Dropping Out of Science Careers
Studies Look at Complex Reasons Behind Exodus of Women From Science
By ASHLEY PHILLIPS
June 24, 2008

RSS Even as nearly equal amounts of men and women pursue graduate degrees in science, recent studies point to a troubling trend: A significant number of women are dropping out of the field — both in the private sector and academia — in their 30s and 40s.

(Getty Images)According to a new study by the Center for Work-Life Policy and sponsored by a host of technology companies, 52 percent of women in private-sector science and technology jobs drop out without returning, a vast majority between the ages of 35 to 44

***snip***

"The top two reasons why women leave are the hostile macho cultures — the hard hat culture of engineering, the geek culture of technology or the lab culture of science … and extreme work pressures," she said.

Sherbin describes "extreme work pressures" as the increasing demand to put in longer and longer days and face time at the office.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. The lab culture of science?

WTF?

[gatorboy]

2. Women don't want to devote their lives working on boner pills?

Shrews!

[uberotto]

3. hostile macho cultures...

As someone who is an Engineer and works with several "scientists", the closest thing we have to "macho" in this building is the 67 year old night security guard.

[FourPieRun]

14. what field are you in? try construction, mining, manufacturing, etc. there is definitely a hostile

macho culture. to be fair, the guys are often hostile to each other, but they are extra hostile to women.

[Johonny]

22. I agree

Most places I worked the women out macho the men.

[Smith_3]

4. geek is hostile macho??

:shrug:

[skooooo]

Do you think its all in their head?

:eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. All in whose head?

Who is actually saying they quit because of those horrible macho scientists?

[skooooo]

9. Well that's a good question...

...lol. Regardless I hope it's not true.

[YOY]

12. Actually most of the UBER Geeks I know just don't know how to act around women

But being "Macho" really isn't anything to do with it. More like visibly uncomfortable.

I work in IT. My boss is a lady. I think she rocks.

[EFerrari]

18. Most UBER Geeks don't know how to act around anyone.

That's why we cut them a bunch a slack. :)

[YOY]

20. Tru dat...

But then again I speak fluent geek...

[EFerrari]

21. I have an honorary membership in our local chapter.

They cut me a bunch o slack, too. :)

[slampoet]

30. I go to MIT every month. The culture is one of Social inappropriate but chaste behavior.

In fact I'd say that a good percentage of grads i encounter seem to border on Asperger's Syndrome (which is asexual in nature) rather than any display one might call macho.

[Runcible Spoon]

54. yeah but just wait til they log online and watch what happens..

when they are able to just say whatever they're thinking with no repercussions. It's ugly.

[slampoet]

63. You are full of shit. Provide evidence of anything that leads to an MIT email or appologise.

Otherwise you are just an other bigot picking on people with Aspergers.

[Runcible Spoon]

79. I dated a guy with Aspie's. they are NOT asexual.

where the fuck do you get this shit from? Jesus. And I don't go running around asking people what college they went to. I'm merely saying that people with Aspie's find an outlet to express themselves in online communities and they often don't act in socially appropriate ways. Take that to mean whatever you want.

"Studies suggest that affected people are as interested in sex as anyone else, but many don’t have the social or empathetic skills to successfully manage adult relationships.

Delayed understanding is common; for example, a person with Asperger syndrome aged in their 20s typically has the sexual codes of conduct befitting a teenager. Even affected people who are high achieving and academically or vocationally successful have trouble negotiating the ‘hidden rules’ of courtship. Inappropriate sexual behaviour can result."
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Asperger_syndrome_and_adults

Yep, sounds like my ex. I tried with him, but in the end, he wouldn't go to counseling so I had to deal with his online sex fantasy world. It doesn't make me a fucking bigot.

[slampoet]

89. It's in the medical literature. Which I'm sure you know doesn't make it universal.

And thank you for using your personal experiences to smear a whole people.

If you weren't trying to smear them all then you would have described the experience with your one person and NOT used the word THEY in your original post.


Sounds like you need some experience on social morays yourself.



"log online and watch what happens.."


Don't you realize you are doing what you accuse other of right now?

[Runcible Spoon]

53. yep, some of the most blatant sexism I've seen is from programmers

my fiance works with them, and they're nice to my face and have no problem with me, but they think they're owed hot women and are really bitter when they fail at picking them up. They've been fed media hype about geeks being the new sex symbols of our generation, and think that just by being able to code in every language means women should fall onto their dicks.

I game, too, WoW formerly but just started Age of Conan and holy mother of Jayzuz is that a hostile environment for women. It's gotten bad enough where I've had to log off and it puts me in a bad mood for hours to think there is so much hostility out there.Add to that, the terms of usage agreements of all major online games have NO provision for gender-based discrimination. Not just women, either: you will never see the word "fag" used so loosely in so many ways as you do in an MMO. I can't chalk it ALL up to hormone loaded 12 year olds, either...

**some, not all techies obviously...but it's prevalent enough for me to be able to state a generalization.

[undeterred]

5. Wow

I spent my first ten years out of college working in a research laboratory at a top notch university, and I can't think of any better work environment. People are respected for their accomplishments on the bench and for their brains, and not for their looks or social status. I can't think of a more democratic environment. I was amazed at how many female scientists there were in the biological sciences, and they were usually the most highly respected people in their departments.

Its hard for any woman to balance career and family, but I don't think this environment is worse than being in business.

[tom_paine]

7. Exactly. n/t

[EFerrari]

16. My female profs used to say that if our department was serious

about diversity, they'd know better than to schedule meetings at dinnertime and on Saturday mornings. When we ran our own working groups, we did. :evilgrin:

[rox63]

6. My ex-SIL got her doctorate in Microbiology at age 27

And became a researcher at UCLA. I guess she bucked the trend.

[no_hypocrisy]

10. The daughter of my SO is getting her PhD in physical therapy next year.

She has a 4.0 average and did bachelors and post-graduate in six years total.

[FourPieRun]

11. i can attest to that; in the mining business women are clearly not wanted by a lot of the guys worki

working there; some are okay with it, but many are openly hostile to the mere presence of a woman in a "man's" job.

[YOY]

15. Yeah but is mining ANYTHING like working in a lab or in IT?

Seriously?

[FourPieRun]

19. the OP mentioned engineering; engineers work in mining and other "macho" fields. nt

[Johonny]

23. No scientist considers an engineer

a scientist. Once the words degrees Rankin are used you stop being a scientist.:-)

[FourPieRun]

80. whatever, the OP mentioned engineering, and engineering definitely involves science. and there is d

definitely a hostile macho culture in many of the fields where engineers works. i have been a (female) mine engineer and probably will be one again soon, and "hostile macho culture" pretty much sums it up.

[Recursion]

93. That's fine with us; engineering is to science...

...as sex is to masturbation :P

[cobalt1999]

13. If they think working in science labs is a hostile macho environment

They sure as hell don't want to be in the business world full of ex-frat boys.

[EFerrari]

17. It depends. If you own your own successful company

that's another ball game altogether.

[Jed Dilligan]

57. Corporate business is an anti-human environment

If you act like anything but the Borg you are totally fucked.

[eShirl]

24. I wonder how many had decided to put off having a family until 35-44?

[EFerrari]

33. Exactly. n/t

[taught_me_patience]

25. They realize being a stay at home mom

is much easier than working in a science lab.

[Bill McBlueState]

26. Have you done both?

I'm a dad, not a mom, but if I had to compare being a stay-at-home dad to working in a lab, I'd have to say that both are really hard. The nature of the challenge is different, but the magnitude is comparable.

Neither position pays you fairly for the work you do; that's for sure.

[taught_me_patience]

32. The pressure to perform at work is relentless

If you take a "breather", "rest on your laurels", or take maternity leave, someone will gladly step in to replace you. That kind of pressure, which stay at home moms don't typically face, wears people out.

[EFerrari]

34. I've been both. The pressure in either situation can be relentless.

It depends upon whether you want to deal with a four year old for 12 hours or with a 40 year old boss acting like a four year old for 12 hours.

[knitter4democracy]

40. So, you think I get breaks?

Excuse me for a second. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! *wipes a tear* Oh man, I needed that laugh.

I'm only getting time on the computer right now (while monitoring both kids and answering their questions every two minutes) because Hubby has a half day today and is making dinner and a friend made my daughter a birthday cake for her to take home from camp so I didn't have to make the brownies she wanted.

I have now been interrupted in typing this message six times. *sigh*

My job is 24/7 with no vacation or leave unless we can afford the babysitter (for two kids, it's $10/hr around here) or Hubby lets me go somewhere by myself. I have an "employment contract" that gets me some breaks, but it's all entirely dependent on what he can take off. My kids have to be clean, dressed in clean, proper clothes, and polite at all times in public, not to mention perfect readers/students and constantly working above grade level. It goes on and on, and because I'm home, I'm expected to volunteer more, help out more at church, and constantly supply snacks for the kids' classes at school.

At least researchers get vacation time and benefits and some acknowledgement when they do a good job. Oh yeah, and they get paid.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

72. You're damn right.

That's why we keep hearing about all these cases of at-home mothers dropping out due stress and taking up research science.

[knitter4democracy]

87. I'm working on dropping out and going to grad school.

My best friend dropped out and went back to being a lab tech.

Just because you don't hear it because it doesn't keep the meme going or make for a sexy headline doesn't mean it's not happening.

[lukasahero]

45. Oh give me a break

Are you at work while you're typing this?

[knitter4democracy]

38. Ummm . . . no.

I've helped out in a science lab, and I'm a stay-at-home mom, and I'd have to say that lab work's easier.

[gkhouston]

67. I've done both, too, and I agree. n/t

[lukasahero]

27. Absolutely staggering

how seriously this is being taken here, isn't it? Those silly women and their darned PC complaints. :eyes:

[Bill McBlueState]

28. good point

And there's at least one case of the frequent DUism, "I personally know a counter-example, so the trend can't possibly be true."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. I agree.

It is a little staggering that after all these responses, nobody's asking why the author is implying a trend of women dropping out of science jobs without demonstrating such a trend exists.

Well, that would require math and statistics. And we all know how hard and macho that junk is.

[stray cat]

36. The stats actually show women drop out prior to full professor positions compared to men

Many value a life outside the lab and choose positions based on quality of life issues rather than position. The article may be lousy but the trend has certainly been studied.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

37. What trend?

You mention a trend, but don't say what it is.

Are more women dropping out now than they were, say, two years ago?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

43. Except this isn't mostly complaints.

The OP, and most of the responses, aren't from women complaining about hving had to drop out of jobs in science, it's someone - apparently someone either with relatively little understanding, or someone more interested in stirring controversy than an accurate and informative treatment of the subject - reporting something they see as other people being victimised.

There is less discrimination on grounds of gender than in science and academia than in most other fields - in maths academia, if anything, the "positive" discrimination outways the negative.

It is, however, obviously difficult for anyone of either gender both to maintain a high-pressure job and to be a primary carer for a family.

At present, more women than men choose to be primary carers.

If undue pressure is being placed on women to make that decision (or on men not to) then *that's* a problem. But those decisions themselves aren't.

[lukasahero]

44. "more women than men choose to be primary carers'"

"Choose"? Are you sure about that?

Or are you basing that decision based on who *does* more of the primary care giving? If women, as a rule, earn less than men, how much "choice" is really involved when women stay home to care for the children while men go off to work?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

47. Yes, I'm sure about that.

You've got the cause and effect the wrong way round - by far the most significant (although by no means the only) reason women earn less on average than men is that more of them choose to be primary carers.

There are a variety of factors contributing to that - some cultural, others biological (the latter are usually underestimated, I suspect, although obviously I can't prove that).

[Igel]

51. I think "choose" is right.

There was a book a few years back that looked at young academics gearing up for their tenure decision. They're the ones most likely to be recently trained, highly educated, and about as progressive and young and urban as you can find.

But more women took maternity leave than men. And when men took maternity leave, it was more often to do research "off the clock".

The author probed satisfaction and hours spent at work, with kids, etc. Stay-at-home tenure-track jobs spent less time with kids, and found things like changing diapers an annoyance, with no redeeming value apart from sanitation. Most of the women got satisfaction in child care, even changing diapers, because it made their kids happier. Same with feeding, playing, etc., etc. Overall, the women were more into it. They got more satisfaction from even childcare grunt work, as a group, than men did.

Stay-at-home dads did less housework. They spent less time making food. Even if all the housework and food prep was their job. Men got less satisfaction out of homemaking than women did, as a group.

And so it went. Overall, a much higher percentage of women were dissatisfied with their jobs. It took too much time, too much stress, too much conflict. Even 40 hours a week was too much when they had kids. With a stay-at-home dad, women still put in less time than men with stay-at-home wives. Men got much more satisfaction out of their careers than women did. With or without kids.

Might be cultural, but he looked at those most trained to ignore cultural norms, he thought. It didn't matter much if the women/men were in the social sciences, humanities, or sciences--there were differences, but no trends were reversed or even equalized.

I hate being a stay at home dad, but my wife earns more than I could. She's tenure-track. She thought she'd like it. Grad school in one city, with low income, then years in another state, in a city we hated, when she was a post-doc. Then job offers. She took a job she thought she'd love.

She hates it, and we're likely to take a $25-30k hit to our bottom line next year when the burden of at-work versus stay-at-home changes shoulders.

[cap]

61. This is not a "choice"...

when the workday exceeds 8 hours, something has to give. It's choosing between goals that deny one aspect of personhood vs another aspect. It's a denial of one's own humanity to choose between a healthy relationship with your family and pursuing a career. Women support the infrastructure that permits men to focus solely on their jobs. If women marched into workplaces at 5 pm and dumped off the kids and eldercare on the men, things would change. Instead, women suck it in and scramble. Then, they ask themselves why are they driving themselves so crazy? Meaningful work -- aka "breadwinner jobs" -- are tracked towards the men.

"Stay-at-home dads did less housework. They spent less time making food. Even if all the housework and food prep was their job." Yes, and working women picked up on the slack. Or, they get a maid.


In general, men are more satisfied because they have more support. They get support from their colleagues when they conform to the norm of working late and they get the necessary tasks done around the house by their wives.

Your example of being the stay at home dad is not the norm. Nor is it likely to become the norm. You and your spouse are still in your twenties/early thirties and the issues described in the article are ones faced by women later in life.


However, women, by and large, do understand that to be a complete human being they MUST integrate family and meaningful work. Men feel that they CAN work an 80 hour week and still be a complete human being. That the few remaining hours for family and home are sufficient for their personhood.

Trust me, women don't love the shit work side of housecare and childcare.

Women are fed up. Why are 30% of women on anti-depressants? They arent as happy as your study indicates.

[Recursion]

94. Do women in science earn less than men?

Every lab I've ever worked for has taken federal money and published the pay for their positions; your pay is determined by what job you have, not by backroom deals with the boss. And a majority of the staff scientists have been women.

[OhioChick]

29. "Women Dropping Out of Science Careers"

Not this one....until I'm forced out. I don't see much of the macho/geek cultures as talked about, but rather it's a known fact that women make less than men.....also raising the cap on H-1B visas doesn't help.....cheaper work yet.

[EFerrari]

35. What seems to be happening is that, in this economy, families get

less support. One of the first casualties of this situation will be women who are juggling family life. Stupid.

[cap]

65. Yup, I can't help but think that in a lousy economy

there aren't women who would go one step further and start sacrificing family life just like the men do.

[EFerrari]

75. We know that many do but, there is a threshhold that you reach

where you have to attend to the kids. And if you can get the same money for a more flexible work schedule or one that is less demanding, the better choice for that moment seems obvious. :(

[Spike89]

39. You know you're getting less than equal pay?

That is illegal. If, on the other hand you are referring to the many surveys and wide demographic studies that show women average around .7 the salary of men, well, that's a much different topic.

The OP actually highlights one of the main problems leading to the differential...women don't pursue or stay in higher paying jobs at the same rate as men. That's a problem, I'm not sure what the causes are. I've heard the argument that "women's" jobs are lower paying because they are traditionally filled with women, and I'll grant that there is something to that. I think a bigger factor is the lingering social stigmas/prejudices, but not the overt sexism most attribute. I know many, many more men than women who identify themselves by the size of their paycheck. Consequently, these guys may be more willing to sacrifice for a crappy, but high paying job.

[Quantess]

59. Nice to see someone with the balls to say so!

:toast: Here's to cajones!

[OhioChick]

73. Yes and I know it's illegal.

Co-workers often talk of what they're getting paid....I have ears. However, should I say something, I'm sure I'll get put on the bench, followed by a pink slip. In my neck of the woods....jobs just aren't there. Outsourcing is going on left and right. Most women that I knew in my field from years ago aren't in it anymore....do to this reason as well as for other reasons I mentioned above.

What really chaps my ass is having to baby-sit/hand-hold some new hire after finding out during their first week that they don't know jack-shit and then finding out how much more they're making than me. :mad:

[Spike89]

78. That sux!

Job insecurity leads to much worse things than just stress. Laws aren't enforceable when the solution is worse than the crime from the victim's standpoint. I had a crappy job once where they bounced my paycheck, costing me literally hundreds I couldn't afford. When I tried to talk to my boss and the payroll department on the phone, they were rude, evasive, then they outright lied. I called my state labor department and they told me it was an "automatic" that if I reported them, I'd get double what they owed me. I was tempted, but knew I'd lose the crappy job and I desperately needed it...2 weeks later they bounced the next paycheck too. I quit and was going to follow up with the state, then I discovered that the catch was it might take as long as 6 months to get my "automatic 2X the amount" and in the meantime, if I resubmitted the check and it cleared, my claim would be null. I needed to pay bills...basically the law was on my side, but was absolutely no help at all.

The new hire thing isn't unique, and in my experience isn't always gender based. I've worked in a few entrapenurial companies where quick expansion basically cleaned out the local talent pool and they had to recruit nationwide, and offer starting wages far above what they were paying existing employees.

[OhioChick]

88. I'm sorry to hear you got screwed.

That seems to be the norm these days. One has to put up with shit, just to keep their job. As I often say, I feel like a hired whore.

[ChickMagic]

82. I WAS forced out

I wasn't sorry, because the lab work I did meant that we often had to spend the night
working. Cultures don't have 8-5 jobs. When I got neuropathy, I had to do something else.
While I was sitting alone in the lab, I learned to use the computer. I even had a talent
for it. In a few days, I wrote a stripping program.

Now I spend my days as a Senior Graphics Designer. The only thing dreadful about it is my
coworker. I may be forced to retire in a year or two, but hubby just got a raise and will
most likely make more than me. I've been here 25 years, I have a degree in biology and he's
only taken a couple of classes at junior college. He's been here about 8 years. Somehow
I get depressed.

[knitter4democracy]

41. It's hard to work in scientific fields and be a mom.

My SIL has done a good job of it, but it's been a really hard fight for pretty much everything. I know several women in science who have had all kinds of sexist crap happen in the workplace, and I could see that it wouldn't take too many times before you'd start asking yourself if it's worth it.

[cap]

42. I agree with this article...

there are hardly any women over 35 in IT. The women that are left are in support positions ... QA, test, GUI, SQL programmers. Not the positions where leadership and money dwell in the industry. At best, women do stay as DBAs.

There are almost no female architects and almost no "gurus". The Open Source movement is composed of almost entirely men. Speakers at major conferences are almost all entirely men. Patent holders are also male.

Almost no tech companies founded by women get VC funding.

[undeterred]

46. I am a female who went into IT infrastructure over the age of 35

I like working with tech guys, but they are most comfortable with me when I am in a position that pays less. If they feel that I am a threat to their position (i.e., I know as much as they do and I could do their job) they usually find a way to stab me in the back. They want the highest paying jobs for themselves - these are "breadwinner jobs" that they feel should go to men.

[lukasahero]

48. Also a female (way over 35) in IT - I was just in a meeting

where one of the guys "assigned" me the task of "setting up the next meeting". Never mind that I'm actually leading the project and the technical lead on it. In 30 seconds he reduced me to secretary. Not a single person on my team spoke up to set the record straight. I'd like to think this wasn't gender motivated but given that I'm the only female on the project, it's a little hard to rationalize.

[Romulox]

52. Constructive criticism: You were leading the project, but were waiting for a subordinate to speak

up for you?

That's not how leadership works.

[cap]

58. it could have been her boss

I read her remark as though she was in a management meeting and got assigned the task of "setting up the next meeting"

[lukasahero]

62. Uh, no, I was anticipating that my boss would address the situation

One can be a project lead but still have the department manager in a meeting. And please don't worry your pretty little head about me - I took control of the issue and straightened the guy out. Of course, now he thinks I'm a bitch.

BTW - your comment is not constructive criticism. It's a condescending insult. "Constructive" criticism would offer something "constructive" for the person to try to adjust the situation next time.

[cap]

64. it was not intended as a condescending insult

but merely as an alternative look at the staffing at that meeting. Sorry, I got confused... never mind :)

BTW, I don't think that you should have been considered to be a "bitch" for what you did. The guy in question could agree or disagree with your methods, but, because you took an agressive/assertive stance does not mean that people should direct that particular perjorative remark towards you.

How about a world where women don't feel like they have to walk a fine line in terms of agressiveness or assertiveness?

[lukasahero]

74. ..... oops?

Sorry I didn't respond to this earlier - I hadn't figured out what had happened until now. I think there's some confusion as to whose reply is whose. My comment about a condescending insult was not in any way directed to you. It was meant for the poster who was offering the "constructive criticism". I just wanted to clear that up. We good?

[Romulox]

76. It's an insult only if you choose to take it that way.

Taking offense where none is intended is a perfect way to make yourself miserable.

"BTW - your comment is not constructive criticism. It's a condescending insult. "Constructive" criticism would offer something "constructive" for the person to try to adjust the situation next time."

Indeed, such as sticking up for one's self, rather than passively waiting for another to do it for you...

[lukasahero]

85. "Sticking up for one's self" - as I did

I'm done here.

[Romulox]

90. By "telling on" the person...

you will earn their scorn and resentment.

The best way to handle that situation is right there, right then, face to face. Barring that, I would discuss the matter directly with the individual after the meeting, provided that I knew a) whether the person in question had the authority to assign me tasks, and b) whether the tasks assigned where a legitimate component of my job.

Asking others to come to my aid just wouldn't occur to me. You're typically on your own in such circumstances, especially when you are attempting to assert your right to a leadership position for the first time--believe me, the sharks will test the waters...

[newportdadde]

66. I'm also in IT, as the lead its always been my job to setup the next project meeting.

I suppose it might depend on the manager but I find most managers both male and female have always expected me to setup project meetings. I actually prefer this as I can control the timing of the meeting and the day, ie nothing right after lunch with sleepy people or anything late on a Friday etc.

They might setup their own one on one meeting with me to discuss the project status in private but other meetings are going to be delegated to the lead.

Then as the lead I then have a choice to delegate that further to another analyst on the team if I want to.

[lukasahero]

69. I suppose it's easy to dismiss me and my concerns as being over-sensitive

and provide me with an education of how the business world works however, let me give you further details: 1) I set up and ran the meeting. 2) I sent the invite. 3) I am running the project and expect to set up the upcoming meetings. 4) I do not expect a random attendee to start assigning tasks in my meetings and certainly not assigning me secretarial tasks while assigning technical tasks to males in the meeting who are not responsible for technical tasks - unless I assign them.

I addressed the situation and, regardless of how many men come by to tell me how it really was, the guy who did this was out of line. My boss has spoken to him since and backed me up and the situation has been resolved.

I offered the story as an example of how women can be treated in IT. I was not looking for advice on how to do my job or how to address a particular situation.

I'm done with this conversation but maybe some of the guys who find themselves dying to give me more advice should read the following: "Men Explain Things to Me"

[cap]

71. Loved that article as well...

eom

[Romulox]

77. It's reassuring in a way to see you are lashing out at any who dare speak

about a subject that you offered up for discussion on a public message board.

[lukasahero]

86. "lashing out" Really?

And people wonder why women aren't inclined to "stick up for" themselves. Good grief. :rofl:

[Romulox]

91. You can make any disagreement with you a gender issue if you wish

But I think you might examine your own prejudices if you simply assume that the aggressive culture of the corporate workplace is a result of its essential "maleness". Or that any advice on navigating that culture is somehow an attack on you on the basis of gender.

In fact, I think your posts have been flamebait, and that you posted with the intent to pounce on any who dared to speak on the issue. :hi:

[Recursion]

95. Isn't it a project lead's job to set up meetings?

I'm kind of missing what's wrong here.

[OhioChick]

55. I agree with you. n/t

[Name removed]

49. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DeepModem Mom]

50. Very interesting article -- thanks, Liberal. nt

[Liberal_in_LA]

56. You are welcome!

:hi:

[cap]

70. good article

eom

[Juche]

60. Macho may be the wrong word

I have noticed a very hostile attitude among some of the extremely well trained scientists though. Esp the ones who went to places like MIT or CalTech and who are new to academia. They have a condescension and haughtiness that makes them very unappealing to be around or work with.

However almost none of the scientists I have known who have been in academia for more than 20 years, no matter how many things they accomplished, had that haughtiness. So this article is confusing if women are dropping out at 35-44. You'd assume that is when the scientists drop the arrogance.

[gkhouston]

68. Nah. Once an asshole, always an asshole. n/t

[FourPieRun]

81. You guys are all focussing on white-coated people in labs; i think the OP's reference was a lot bro

broader than that. "science careers" includes a lot of things, such as engineering (which was mentioned in the OP). anybody who doesn't think there is a hostile macho culture in many areas where engineers work either has very limited experience or needs to open their eyes. i am a mine engineer and my sister is a chemical engineer in a catalytic converter plant; we can tell you all about the 'hostile macho culture.' these people are a totally different breed of people than the guys working at your local grocery store, etc.

[cap]

92. yeah... a coworker used to work at Quaker Chemical

and she said the guys would settle their disputes literally duking it out in the parking lot ... and this happened at all levels.

[ismnotwasm]

83. Good article

And sadly, very accurate from what I understand.

Edit;
At least no one is saying women "aren't hardwired" for science and math. That was so 2 years ago.

[XemaSab]

84. Not that I've noticed

:shrug: