No to the death penalty.

[question everything]

It used to be that most DUers were against it, under any circumstances. But, all of a sudden, today many are for.

Have they not heard the reasons: that once it is expanded beyond murder that here is no clear boundary to stop it? That victims would now be murdered as to not provide testimony?

What happened to the notion that executing criminals, yes, the most monstrous ones, is barbaric? That we are the only developed country that still carries it?

If Obama agrees with Thomas and Scalia, instead of Souter, Ginsburg and Breyer, why bother voting for him? Remember, the Supreme Court vacancies have been the only reason for many of us to support our nominee.

[undeterred]

1. The court made the right decision today.

Just barely. The right will murder everyone in sight, no matter what the crime or the evidence, when they have complete power. They love murder and war.

[Thothmes]

40. Our Dem govenor executed one last night in Virginia

[undeterred]

52. No DP in Wisconsin, although the right would like

to bring it back. And they have a moratorium in my old state, Illinois, because it was shown that the penalty was overapplied to minorities.

[rpannier]

2. It's a valid question

I'm still curious as to why he's weighed into this issue

I haven't seen anything by mcbush on it.

I'm disappointed in what he said.

I'd like to believe he'd pick a Justice in the line of Justice Stevens.

Right now I'll hold on to the knowledge that...
He's still better than mcbush.

[question everything]

20. That's the question: why even bother?

I remember how disappointed in was, in 1992 when Gov. Clinton suspended his New Hampshire campaign to go back home to send to death someone with a limited mental capacity. Supposedly, as a governor, it was part of his "duties." (I voted for Tsongas..)

But did Obama have to talk about it?

[Dogtown]

43. You'd rather he failed to answer a question?

He didn't choose this topic, he was asked a question sharpened on both edges.

We're really not politically naive, you know.

[Blue_In_AK]

3. Obama's support of the death penalty disappoints me.

Where the hell are the perfect politicians anyway? I want to vote for one.

[Virginia Dare]

5. Agreed..

although I never expected him to be perfect, but this is a VERY big disappointment.

[lonestarnot]

8. Against it then, against it now, against it forever!

And on Obama, we can't have everything I guess. :( Disappoints me too.

[Horse with no Name]

16. oy veh I missed that

:cry:
And the best we can get for our nominee is someone who abhors the adjective "liberal", is willing to "consider" school vouchers, and supports the death penalty?:wow:

[mudesi]

19. Try Dennis Kucinich (nm)

[Dogtown]

44. He didn't support D/P

He suggested it should be up to the individual state to decide.

He gave a political answer to a loaded question.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

48. Relax, Obama's very liberal on the death penalty.

This is the "appeal to the centrists" phase of the campaign season.

Obama supports the death penalty as much as John McCain supports electric cars.

[Blue_In_AK]

51. We're having to put a lot of faith in what he will do once in office.

How do we know for a fact that "appealing to the centrists" isn't what he's going to continue doing once in office? I mean, he has made it a stated goal of his to build coalitions and reach across the aisle -- which may not be a bad thing in some people's minds -- but I think people expecting Obama to be a progressive beacon may end up being sadly disappointed in the end.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

53. Or, a lack of faith.

And just old fashioned political savvy.

You don't really think John McCain cares about electric cars, do you?

[Blue_In_AK]

55. No, of course not.

But I'm beginning to think that not too many in Washington care much about anything having to do with us ordinary folk, but they'll tell us just about anything to make us think they do.

[Caentor]

57. Does he?

I am aware that Obama supports the Constitutionality of the DP

Does he support it as policy.

Those are not at all mutually exclusive.

[grantcart]

4. I am against it and always have been.

When I worked in a state legislator's office I persuaded him to add the question to a poll to his district. I have no idea what else was on the rest of the poll but was stunned at the response on Capital Punishment. It was over 90% and people wrought long letters on it. I decided then to personally never pursue anything in politics and also realized that for a large part of the population this is the most emotional issue that they care about.

No one running for President is ever going to win by trying to eliminate the death penalty. You might as well as run against the private ownership of guns - which I also oppose. Its just not going to happen.

[question everything]

23. True. But the question is - why even raise it

knowing that most of his supporters are against the death penalty?

Sometimes it is wise not to raise an issue at all. Look how McCain rarely talks about abortion. Too many women think that "maverick" means that he is pro-choice.

[Horse with no Name]

27. He is trying to siphon votes from McCain by enticing

the asshats who think you can cure the world's evils with a good hanging tree. :(

[grantcart]

30. he was asked during a press conference but unfortunately

1) I doubt that even a majority of Democrats are against it and more importantly

2) In order to win and make sure there is no involvement with the extra electoral issues like a Supreme Court ruling, he will need 70 million votes.

Think back on Governor Dukakis and how he basically lost the election on the question of how he would react to the murder of his wife.

We are in the General Election and, within reason, he will be taking a number of middle issues. If you take the roughly 35,000,000 who voted Democratic in the primaries he needs to double that number.

Mondale
Dukakis
Gore
Kerry

All missed in getting the overwhelming vote that is required for a Democrat to win.

[question everything]

31. Yea, I know...

Perhaps he could have taken a page from Bush - yes - and at least say that he accepted the court decision.

[Dogtown]

45. Spin, spin, spin.

Maybe you'll make us dizzy and we'll get all confused...

He didn't "raise" the issue.

[pleah]

6. Legalized murder is not the answer.

I have never been for the death penalty.

[sam sarrha]

7. there is no proof whatsoever that Death is any sort of penalty, where is the research.?? it is a

Blood Sacrifice for votes, however, when a politician primacies ti kill prisoners in custody if elected.

there are no atheists sitting on the electric chair.. they accept jesus and are in heaven before the body quits twitch'n.. not a penalty


if anyone insists death is a penalty, that is just opinion, or projected personal fear of death.. there is no research to draw facts from

[question everything]

32. Not a deterrent, certainly.

More of a revenge, which really has no room in the penal code.

And the families of the victims do not even find "closure" as was found out.

[judy]

9. The death penalty is a disgrace,

a barbaric practice that does not do anything except justify murder.
If Obama said something about being for it, then he is not the inspired leader that I thought he might be...
However, I still think we have no choice but to vote for him against youknowho.

But it looks more and more like Obama might be Bill Clinton revisited: a likeable President, who would kind of like to make peace, but who really sells out most of the time.

Still, he is better than the deranged murderer currently in the WH...Yet even for him or Cheney, I would not want the death penalty. I would want for them to sit in jail, and watch movies of US and Iraqi families crying for their dead loved ones.

[AlCzervik]

10. i posted this last week, no one was interested but you may be.

so worth seeing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3470258

[rpannier]

11. I'm sorry I missed that post

It's very interesting and too bad no one saw it (including me)

Thanks for sharing it with us again.

If I had seen it I would have definitely recommended it.

[question everything]

26. Sorry to have missed it, and now its archived.

I don't think that I would have watched the movie, though. I loath the idea of death penalty so much that I don't think I could have watched it. I did not watch "Dead Men Walking" which was considered an excellent movie on the topic.

[AlCzervik]

29. i think what made it so different from other things i've read and watched about the dp was the fact

that he made tapes and he remembered everyone of the inmates he walked and how it changed him and his own opinion on the death penalty. I'll be honest, the death penalty wasn't always on my radar until i lived in Texas for 3 years and guess who the Governor was? If you get a chance please think about watching it.

[NNN0LHI]

12. Death penalty is for barbarians

Sorry Barrack but thats the way it is.

OK, I am not really sorry.

Don

[Jack_DeLeon]

22. Thats racist...

your calling a black man a barbarian. :eyes:

[LeftyMom]

28. In history, a "barbarian" was a person who was not Greek (or later, Roman.)

In Greek use, it generally meant the Persians and other neighboring societies, in Rome the Barbarians at the gate were usually the relatively uncivilized peoples of what's now Germany.

So the only racist thing here (assuming you're not an Iranian or German nursing a very old grudge from the clash of ancient civilizations) is assuming that the word barbarian is a reference to Obama's (half) blackness, rather than what appears to be the author's intent in pointing out his shockingly uncivilized stand on this issue.

[applegrove]

13. I think the supremes did right today. I wish the US could get rid of the whole dam thing!

[Horse with no Name]

14. we had an onslaught of "centrist" DU'ers

a couple of years ago.
Progressive thinking pretty much became the "underground" voice here.

[gatorboy]

15. Do you believe Obama would select a Thomas or Scalia if elected?

[Horse with no Name]

17. sooner than he would select a Ginsberg. n/t

[hfojvt]

36. oh come on. He's not to the right of the Clintons

and Ginsberg was pre-approved by Orrin Hatch.

[paulstylos]

47. and even

mccain approved (or at least did not disapprove) of ginsberg

[mudesi]

18. It is one of THE litmus tests

If you support capital punishment, you're not a liberal, period. Being anti capital punishment is a cornerstone.

[hfojvt]

37. another one? How many are there all told?

Do I fail all of them, I wonder?

[Caentor]

58. Is the litmus test

policywise, or constitutional analysis wise?

I can agree that liberalism and the death penalty don't go well together.

Otoh, as to the CONSTITUTIONALITY of the death penalty, that is an entirely different topic.

What do you do when something you oppose is CONSTITUTIONAL? You fight to change policy, and minds. You don't hope for the rewriting of the constitution by judicial fiat.

There are LOTS of bad law that are constitutional.

[Jack_DeLeon]

21. I've always supported the death penalty...

some people dont deserve to live because of their violent actions.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

25. Maybe they don't deserve to live

but we deserve to kill them even less.

[EFerrari]

34. God, is that you?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

24. It's not a majority, at least not here at DU. They just make more noise. -nt

[Eric Condon]

33. My problem is with the death penalty being exercised institutionally.

More than any argument about the "morality" or lack thereof of the death penalty itself, I'm much more interested in the "morality" of the death penalty being recognized institutionally by the U.S. The fact is, executing criminals, no matter how heinous, is a barbaric practice, and if the U.S. is as advanced and civilized as we pride ourselves as being, then it is simply beneath us to engage in it. If this is the Greatest Country in the World™ like everyone says it is, then surely we can come up with a more civilized manner of dealing with our criminals.

That said, I'm not always opposed to hypothetical vigilante justice on a moral level, to some degree at least. For instance, if the parent of a murdered child were to in turn murder their child's murderer, I wouldn't be particularly offended by that. If a person truly is an unrepentant murderer, then I'm not particularly concerned for their welfare. It's just the institutional acceptance of this practice by our government that really bothers me.

There are a lot of other reasons why I'm opposed to the death penalty: it's not a deterrent, it is unfairly administered on racial and social grounds, and I also think it's hairsplitting to distinguish "mentally unfit" criminals from those of "sound mind," since if your own personal morality is so skewed that you think it's acceptable to kill a person, then you're obviously insane even if you're mentally all there otherwise. But above all else, I truly believe that America is supposed to be a better country than one whose government executes people.

[pokerfan]

35. "Reasonable Doubt" is not a good enough standard to take a life

That's my current thinking, anyway. It's a high enough standard to incarcerate under our system but the fact that death is irrevocable gives me pause.

I've been on both sides of this issue and argued both sides equally passionately. I wrote an anti DP paer in highschool but I became pro DP later on. Then the Illinois death row DNA exonerations and moratorium made me reconsider and I've been anti ever since.

Death is irrevocable and reasonable doubt is just not a high enough standard for me. I'm not sure that any system would be good enough to balance against the finality of ending a life. Maybe I'm not anti for "pure" enough reasons but there you go. I figure you can always release someone in light of new compelling evidence. You can at least mitigate the harm by returning the rest of their life. But you can't undo a death.

Having said that, I have no problem with the use of lethal force if necessary to defend one's self or loved ones.

My thoughts at 48 anyway. I don't see them changing at this point.

[MrSlayer]

38. I've never held the notion that killing people that deserve death is barbaric.

And I absolutely believe that pedos and other violent rapists should be killed. But don't lose faith in DU, I, and the others who believe as I do, are still the minority here. We just come out in force when these stories break.

[oscarmitre]

42. Then you condemn

the victim to death.

[LanternWaste]

56. Wouldn't the victim have already been condemned to death

Wouldn't the victim have already been condemned to death by the perpetrator-- regarldess of the punishment perpetrator receives?

Unless I misinterpret your post, of course...

[OneBlueSky]

39. in a society aspiring to become a paradigm of civilized behavior . . .

(which is what America should be), the death penalty is a far too barbaric way of maintaining order and punishing offenders . . . how can a society teach that killing is wrong if the government itself engages in killing at every opportunity, whether through war or capital punishment? . . . when life is that cheap, any talk of the "sancitity of life" is hypocritical . . .

"teach your children well" sang Crosby, Stills and Nash . . . and we teach by what we do, not by what we say . . .

[PeaceNikki]

41. Race and the Death Penalty

http://www.aclu.org/capital/unequal/10389pub20030226.html

The color of a defendant and victim's skin plays a crucial and unacceptable role in deciding who receives the death penalty in America. People of color have accounted for a disproportionate 43 % of total executions since 1976 and 55 % of those currently awaiting execution. A moratorium of the death penalty is necessary to address the blatant prejudice in our application of the death penalty.

The jurisdictions with the highest percentages of minorities on its death row:

U.S. Military (86%)
Colorado (80%)
U.S. Government (77%)
Louisiana (72%)
Pennsylvania (70%)

While white victims account for approximately one-half of all murder victims, 80% of all Capital cases involve white victims. Furthermore, as of October 2002, 12 people have been executed where the defendant was white and the murder victim black, compared with 178 black defendants executed for murders with white victims.

For many years reports from around the country have found that a pervasive racial prejudice in the application of the death penalty exists.

In January 2003, researchers at the University of Maryland concluded in a study commissioned by the Maryland Governor that defendants are much more likely to be sentenced to death if they have killed a white person. Urgent: Maryland residents can take action to send a free fax to their state legislators about a pending death penalty bill!

In August 2001, the New Jersey Supreme Court released a report which also found that the state's death penalty law is more likely to proceed against defendants who kill white victims.

In April 2001, researchers from the University of North Carolina released a study of all homicide cases in North Carolina between 1993 and 1997. The study found that the odds of getting a death sentence increased three and a half times if the victim was white rather than black.

(more at link)

[paulstylos]

46. you are confusing the issue

obama agrees with thomas, scalia et al as a matter of CONSTITUTIONAL LAW

that is entirely different than being FOR (or against) the death penalty.

the issue is - when is the death penalty constitutional.

just because something is constitutional does not mean you have to be for it, and just because something is constitutional does not mean it's good policy, moral, etc.

people keep conflating these things, and it's getting my dander up! :)

seriously.

[CBGLuthier]

49. Because this isn't the only or even that important an issue

I myself am anti DP but really now this country and world have got one hell of a lot of fucking things we need to fix and the DP is way, way down on the list.

You are actually saying we should not vote for the democratic candidate because of this one stand?

Well then enjoy your fascism buddy cause it will be served in cold lumpy heaps followed by a kick to the head.

[RaVeN_MeaD]

50. I agree...Death is too good for some of these scumbags

BTW, Death Penalty is still a state by state issue.

[marmar]

54. Yup. I don't believe in being against the death penalty with an asterisk*

I'm against it ...... PERIOD.