A note to the squeamish

[undergroundpanther]

I want to see all child rapists put to death, but when I say that I get accused of advocating TORTURE?
WTF does torture have to do with death?? Nothing if the death is quick and pain free as possible.WE WILL ALL FACE DEATH.
But,We do NOT have to face torture or commit torture.

Let me make this CLEAR.._all_Torture is WRONG. It is WRONG Because of the wounds it leaves in the soul of the tortured.It creates victims..


That said,Death is NOT the same thing as Torture, people.
Death is sometimes the ethically correct option.

Dead bodies do not get flashbacks,PSTD,dissociate, drink themselves to death or suicide.But Death will stop the convicted child rapist forever,all without resorting to punishment or torture (isolation cells)that do not work, or treatment that fails..

I favor death for convicted child rapists because _ALL_Torture is wrong.

DEATH is NOT the Same thing as TORTURE!!!
DEAD means they cannot anything,the offender is GONE..
Child rapists who are DEAD do not have to LIVE with a wounded mind,body and soul torturing them for the rest of their days.Dead child rapists do not have to live with the torture their victims endure because of what was done to them and the scars it leaves.

Death is a guaranteed way to stop recidivism too.

Killing Child rapists is NOT torture and it is NOT Killing an innocent or trust-able person.

The kind of murder child rapists do is barbaric and it causes trauma,that hurts from the inside out.All the memories are psychiatric time bombs exploding in the child's mind or teen's mind or adult's mind, sometimes long after the initial crime has passed and has been denied..and justice was also denied.Which happens too often to begin with.This link might show some of the reasons among many why victims are not heard or taken seriously enough.
ttp://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v3n2/justworld.html

Child rape is a form of torture and murder.What child rapists DO _IS_murder.The child is killed on the inside first by the child rapist's assaults,than the victim gets tortured more because her mind and memories.Than the people around the victim torture with denial and this social stupidity that creates the protection of perpetrators,and all that just world theory bullshit,The victims of child rapists are tortured in three ways by the child rapist,the psychiatric injury resulting from the rape,and a society all to willing to blame victims. Victims suffer for years and if they are hurting and too afraid to trust and cannot feel safe the victim often suicides.Either it's done fast like blowing one's brains out or slow via a deadly addiction...And a child rapist caused it all,by his choice to destroy a child just because he could...
http://writhesafely.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/these-are-the-secrets-that-kill/

On that day I learned Child Protection has capitulated to the medical model, and is little more than a handmaiden to Big Pharma. CPS now removes from intact and functional families rambunctious kids whose parents refuse to put them on Ritalin while ignoring child-destructive environments and insisting on interventions that put the child-victim squarely into the punitive behavioral health system. Tearful ex-social workers testified that they are drugging abused kids, and doing nothing to disrupt the violent home life, much less identify and address the trauma that the children are enduring at the hands of their untreated parents.

It boggles the mind, what should be the child’s advocates are actually collaborators with their abuse.
http://writhesafely.wordpress.com/2007/08/12/process-entails-stages-we-can-see-ourselves-in/

Now the supreme court collaborates with the rapists of children.
When will people GET IT,child rapists are not innocents, they are not safe to co-exist around anybody and they cannot be cured.
Killing is not the same as torture.Child rapists are torturers.
Killing a torturer is not torturing a torturer.
Do NOT TORTURE THEM because torture is WRONG. ,just simply Kill them.They will never rape a child again.

Just to get the people who sympathize with child rapists over an idealogical stupidity,and pretense to'purity' regarding the death penalty..

Consequences of child sexual abuse begin affecting children and families immediately. They also affect society in innumerable and negative ways. These effects can continue throughout the life of the survivor so the impact on society for just one survivor continues over multiple decades. Try to imagine the impact of 39 million survivors.
http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/06_politic.html
http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/05_history.html

Most perpetrators don't molest only one child if they are not reported and stopped.

Nearly 70% of child sex offenders have between 1 and 9 victims; at least 20% have 10 to 40 victims. (23)
An average serial child molester may have as many as 400 victims in his lifetime.

400!!!
http://www.darkness2light.org/KnowAbout/statistics_2.asp

After Mark Hulett pled guilty to repeatedly raping a girl for four years, starting when she was 7 years old (6 by another report), the judge tasked with his sentencing handed down only a 60-day sentence, to be followed by compulsory sex treatment, saying he no longer believes that punishment works.
*snip*
What the hell kind of bullshit classifications system do they have, that someone who’s spent three years repeatedly raping a child is considered “low-risk” for re-offending? That’s completely absurd, and indicative of such a grave misunderstanding of sex offenders that it defies comprehension.
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2006/01/repeat-rapist-sentenced-to-60-days-in.html


Approximately 4,300 child molesters were released from prisons in 15 States in 1994. An estimated 3.3% of these 4,300 were rearrested for another sex crime against a child within 3 years of release from prison.(

that 3.3% may have raped as many as 400 children,each,add it up the numbers of victims by this 3.3 % IS staggering.Some studies have recidivism rates as high as 50% BTW.)

Among child molesters released from prison in 1994, 60% had been in prison for molesting a child 13 years old or younger.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm

1989 analysis published in Psychological Bulletin of 42 published and unpublished sex-offender recidivism studies. It concluded that there was "as yet no evidence that clinical treatment reduces rates of sex re-offenses in general and no appropriate data" to judge if it is effective for particular types of offenders (Becker, p. 189).
ttp://sexoffenderresearch.blogspot.com/search/label/Recidivism%20-%20Treatment%2FNone

So if punishment does not work,,"treatment" is pretty ineffective,and the child rapist cannot be cured or trusted ..or set free,lest more children are raped ,KILL them!! THERE ARE NO OTHER OPTIONS LEFT!!

Either misplace your pity in the name of some self righteous, ignorant, bullshit idealogical purity, catch 22 crap,that ends up protecting the rapist monster and endangering more kids.Play games and let offenders out in a few years ,give them treatments that don't work, let these rapists out to ruin kids lives and slowly kill them,Via the torture within that remains from memories of what was done to them.

Or just kill the child rapists and be done with them.
I favor killing the convicted child rapists.
I agree with Obama on this one..
If we let one child rapist who before being caught raped who knows how many children,out to re-offend again,because of idealogical hang ups and catch 22's,squeamishness and ignorance about the dangers.. how many victims and lives broken can you justify letting a convicted child rapist create before you say Enough? 10,20 50,100,400!!??!

[bicentennial_baby]

1. The Death Penalty is wrong.

Always.

[babylonsister]

5. That's your opinion, doesn't make it correct.

:hi:

[undergroundpanther]

6. Torture is wrong always

Death sometimes,is the only option left.Death is sometimes the most ethical thing you can do in a given situation.But you are ethically BLINDED by ideology and a purity catch 22 that prevents you from seeing through justice and stop convicted child rapists.

How many victims are you willing to let a child rapist create before you do what it takes to stop him forever?

Your misplaced pity and ethical cowardice is abhorrent.It really is.

[madinmaryland]

22. Yes. Torture is always wrong.

BUT. Can you guarantee that our system of justice is always correct, such that we (as a society) can kill someone who may or may not be guilty of the crime. (Unless of course you believe in the Nance Grace style of justice -- "Guilty until you are able to afford to prove that you are innocent")

:grr:

[uppityperson]

25. Is life in prison torture?

[undergroundpanther]

54. yes.

Isolation rooms especially. Being locked in a room can actually damage your brain.I spent 18 months in solitary in a mental hospital.And I would prefer death to ever being put in a room alone like that again.

Yet,most supermax prisons lock people in little cells for 23 hours a day. Sometimes for years.That.is. Torture.it.is.WRONG.
And I oppose it totally.But anti-death penalty people do not comprehend what I am saying here, about torture and victims rights.

If I was arrested and staying in a cell 23 hours a day I would ask to be killed or I may attempt suicide.
And there are some things that are worse than death.
I wish anti-death penalty activists were not so fundie about it all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. There you are getting into policy and how we deal with crime and punishment

and for the record I hate supermax. They are on a continuum of US history though and we have gone BACKWARDS not forwards on dealign with crime and punishment

In my view the supermax model should be forbidden on human rights grounds, and MOST prisoners should be put to work and forced to earn their keep...

Some of the folks in a supermax didn't belong there to begin with, and instead belonged in a mental health facility, but part of the problem we have with crime and punishment is that we are one of the few societies that ELECT judges who have to show they are hard asses or risk loosing their jobs

For the record some of the folks in supermax need psychiatric care that they didn't need before they were sent to that hell

The other problem is the almost biblical eye for an eye crime and punishment model we have

We used to believe in redemption, we no longer do

Why the system has so many hard sentences for relatively minor things, and we have not yet abolished the death penalty

See I get it, but hey... your mileage will vary

[undergroundpanther]

62. The redemption model is

what created the idea for isolation rooms and super max.

Look into prison history
http://www.slought.org/content/11342/
http://www.jolietprison.com/publications/catalog.asp
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/772229/the_5_reasons_for_incarceration.html


5 reasons to jail people
Punishment, Isolation, Rehabilitation, Justice and Redemption.

I disagree with some of those 5 reasons..
My main reason to jail is so people outside the jail are not in danger anymore.This is the same reason I support the Death penalty.One less creator of victims creating more victims.
My second reason the one I agree with, justice.
Vengance is a normal emotion to feel by someone wronged.Justice done relieves that angst.

Punishing is pointless.
Isolation is torture.
Rehabilitation only can help if the inmate wants to be rehabilitated.
and redemption..That is just laughable.There are tons of jailhouse converts that drop religion once they leave jail.


>For the record some of the folks in super max need psychiatric care >that they didn't need before they were sent to that hell

I agree mentally ill people don't belong in jail.They need help.
Sad thing is some mentally ill people are too dangerous for regular psych wards to handle, they need a place that can handle them as they help.

Psychopath criminals they do belong in jail.Too few of them ARE in jail.IMHO.
People who are given the diagnosis of psychopathic personality disorder exhibit the following characteristics: they are engaging, charming, and egocentric; they are incapable of love; they reveal no ability to express guilt, remorse, and shame; they have little insight; and they do not easily learn from certain types of experiences, such as causing pain in another person or being convicted of a crime (Hare, 1998).

Psychopathy IS NOT a mental illness.
Psychopathy is a personality TYPE.And being a personality type it cannot be cured with medications or therapy.
Psychopaths actually cannot be reformed.
You cannot make a person incapable of empathy grow a conscience.

http://personalitydisorders.suite101.com/article.cfm/can_psychopaths_be_rehabilitated

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Except for your penchant for the death penalty, which does not work by the way

we agree and yes I have studied the history of the prison system in the US

We are on a continuum, going from one extreme to another

But your need for revenge is blinding you.

Look, I dealt with probably more crime than you ever did, as a medic I saw the consequences in the raw.

These ranged from murder, all the way to just simple assault

At times we were tempted to take justice into our own hands because we felt the system would not punish the perpetrator enough, and that is exactly what you want to do... and for the record, we never did. Nor can I claim to know what is the pain you individually felt over what happened to you. Nor would I wish this on my worst enemy.

But you should know this, in fact, one of my patients was the perpetrator of child rape... and I still needed to remain professional and treat him as just another patient. Another, due to his ahem, professional pursuits, was responsible for the deaths of thousands, and I still needed to take care of him in a professional, even non-judgmental manner... so yes you could say I have seen the worst that humans are capable of doing.

And you know what? Your need for revenge is to a point blinding you, and until you do something about it to not get over it, but deal with it, and for your sake I hope you do, your need for revenge will continue to haunt you. And I'd suggest going to a survivor's group at this point. They do exist. It may help you to not necessarily get over the rage, or the hate, or the pain, but to leave some of the hate behind. And yes, you will say that I have no way of knowing, and you are right... but I also know that for your mental health you need to do that.... and I will bring my dad. He is a victim of the holocaust... and you know what? To this day he cannot speak about a lot of it... and it has consumed him. On the other hand, I know another woman who was in Aushwitz and she knows the value of being a survivor. And you'd benefit from that. She never forgave, if you get what I am saying, and she was the victim of more than just child abuse... but she overcame.

But your need for an eye for an eye has and will continue to be tempered by society's needs. I hate that you think this is unjust, but that is the way civilized societies (and I use this with a grain of salt insofar as the US is concerned due to the extremes in our criminal system) is concerned. Oh and I do think we are wasting bandwidth, because you are talking out of your need (which is real and understandable) for revenge and I am talking out of reason, not the heart.

We need to reform this so these monsters do some really hard time... but I will never go down that point of agreeing that the death penalty does any good. And I do hope, in spite of your need for revenge, that this country soon joins the rest of the civilized world and abolishes it, across the board. PERIOD.

[undergroundpanther]

70. You make some assumptions here

I want the crime of child rape to stop.

Killing one child rapist can potentially keep many children from becoming victimized.Up to 400 in some cases.
So Killing one child rapist ensures that one rapist cannot ever rape again.


Also it prevents a more morally abhorrent problem: torture.
What part of this don't you get?

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. Reality check

the crime of child rape will not stop... it can be slowed down but it will not stop.

Death penalty demeans the society

And by the way I have seen torture in the flesh too... so I get it...

Now I mean this. GET HELP

[undergroundpanther]

74. You "get help"

What an asshole thing to say.Fancy yourself a therapist now? STFU.I really get disgusted at self righteous jerks trying to diagnose people via just the posts they disagree with..



the crime of child rape will not stop... it can be slowed down but it will not stop.


I agree it won't ever drop to 0%
However you admit slowing it down is better than what we have NOW isn't it? Less raped children is a GOOD thing,You agree?


What proof do you have it"demeans" society?

Our society,and societies all over are demeaning of people death penalty or no death penalty..

Ignoring the fact that kids get assaulted by child rapists,and rapists sometimes are not getting any significant jail time because of what happens to them in jail,among other things is far more demeaning to society than killing child rapists,so the rate of assaults SLOWS down.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. Free clue

not playing psychology

Another free clue

You are the one who desires revenge. And you may benefit from getting help which comes in MANY FORMS... you ASSUME it only includes psychiatric care, which is NOT the case.

And you are making way too many assumptions

-----Ignoring the fact that kids get assaulted by child rapists,and rapists sometimes are not getting any significant jail time because of what happens to them in jail,among other things is far more demeaning to society than killing child rapists,so the rate of assaults SLOWS down.----

NOBODY LET ME REPEAT THIS NOBODY has denied that this happens

What just because this happened to you. you think nobody else gets it? I DO... treated victims and victimizers, get it NOW?

Oh well, have a nice day...

And yes, the death penalty DEMEANS societies that practice it... sorry if you cannot accept this.. but it does

[undergroundpanther]

83. I doon't have to accept your opinions

about societies,I disagree on this I have my reasons,and not all of them come from my past,I have thought deeply on it and came up with a different conclusion than you did, and you don't like it.
Well so?
Buh Bye.Wasting my time with you.

[zanne]

96. I think you said that in anger...

If not, then you have some problems.

[EOTE]

120. Life in prison does the same thing.

It also allows for a person who may have been wrongly imprisoned to experience justice as well. It also prevents many psychological scars for the victim too. And how does one determine what, on the scale of abhorrence, is worthy of the death penalty if we start to include people who haven't murdered? Will statutory rape ever be included in those crimes worthy of the DP? Can you see a very scary slippery slope here?

[Triana]

117. You're right RE: psychopaths - meds and therapy won't change them. They are PATHOLOGICAL...

They are unreformable, hard-wired.

Psychopathy IS a personality disorder. And, personality disorders are a form of PATHOLOGY. Personality Disorders are characterized by the inability to change, grow, or develop insight about their own behavior. That is also a good definition of pathology no matter WHICH personality disorder they have (psychopathy, sociopathy, NPD).

If they have one, there is no big change and absolutely no cure. Personality disorders are actually a description of deficits in the personality (all the things a person doesn’t have that are normal to have). It describes how the personality DID NOT develop in childhood.

It is GENETIC, also. So, if there is a personality disorder in the family, it's likely a child will be born with it and live in society with it.

No one expects the mentally retarded to one day not be mentally retarded. But people consistently think that one day a permanently personality disordered pathological will one day not be that.

:wtf:

[Thothmes]

130. Do not isolate them

Place them in the general prison population.

[uppityperson]

135. I agree. So, is life in prison revenge?

I am not reading elsewhere in this thread, first wanted to just reply to you.

I don't believe in the death penalty for a bunch of reasons, totally.

But wondering if those who consider the death penalty "revenge", is imprisoning for life a type of living revenge also? I think it is also.

Still, I am against the death penalty for several reasons, and also think solitary is totally wrong also as that is a different type of torture.

[reflection]

119. I used to support the death penalty

but I realized I could never accept the fact that a small amount of innocent people were falling through the cracks. How horrifying must it be to be strapped down and injected with lethal chemicals, knowing you didn't commit the crime? I can't even fathom it.

[LeftishBrit]

128. Agree with you, strongly; but torture is worse.

[MercutioATC]

2. I believe the idea was to torture them and then kill them.

Yes, it would "wound their souls", but the damage would be short-lived.

[undergroundpanther]

57. No just kill them

kill the child rapists,quickly and as pain free as possible.
That will permanently stop child rapist.That one child rapist creates many many victims..who because of what has happened will be tortured for years afterwards.

[Andy Canuck]

3. It isn't an issue of pity,

it is a question of whether you believe the state should be killing people. And the answer is the state should not be killing people. Period.

[razors edge]

7. I agree.

The family members of the destroyed children should have that right.

They could use it or not, but it should be their call, and of their own hand.

[undergroundpanther]

39. Thank you.

If the state is a failure,at justice..

The victims do know what happened to them..they should do justice than at their discretion.What's so awful about that? It is the closest to actual justice one can get.There would be less mistaken identities.

An interesting article on vengance..

Instead, anthropologists, historians, and archeologists tell us that state governments have arisen independently under one of two sets of circumstances. Sometimes external pressure from an encroaching state has placed a people under such duress that it ceded individual rights to a government of its own that would be capable of offering effective resistance. For instance, about two centuries ago, the formerly separate Cherokee chiefdoms gradually formed a unified Cherokee government in a desperate attempt to resist pressure from whites. More frequently, chronic competition among warring non-state entities has ended when one gained a military advantage over the others by developing proto-state institutions: one example is the formation of the Zulu state by a particularly talented chief named Dingiswayo, in the early nineteenth century, out of an assortment of chiefdoms fighting each other.

In New Guinea, as in most other parts of the world, neither of those two sets of circumstances operated, and state government was brought in from the outside. But the traditions of Highlands clan warfare are still fresh in the memories of many living New Guineans, and tend to reappear when the current state government cannot muster ****credible displays of force****
I asked Daniel why, on learning of Soll’s death, he hadn’t saved himself all the effort and expense, and just asked the police to arrest Isum. “If I had let the police do it, I wouldn’t have felt satisfaction,” he replied. “I wanted to obtain vengeance myself, even if it were to cost me my own life. I had to ask myself, how could I live through my anger over Soll’s death for the rest of my life? The answer was that the best way to deal with my anger was to exact the vengeance myself.”

Those words of Daniel’s have haunted me ever since, because, through the experiences of a relative who passed up the opportunity for vengeance and lived to regret it, I came to appreciate the terrible personal price that law-abiding citizens pay for leaving vengeance to the state.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/04/21/080421fa_fact_diamond?currentPage=all

And isn't this lack of CREDIBILITY what leads victims to want to take things into thier own hands,no credible force restrains the child rapists?

We regularly ignore the fact that the thirst for vengeance is among the strongest of human emotions. It ranks with love, anger, grief, and fear, about which we talk incessantly. Modern state societies permit and encourage us to express our love, anger, grief, and fear, but not our thirst for vengeance. We grow up being taught that such feelings are primitive, something to be ashamed of and to transcend.

[Andy Canuck]

104. We are meant to transcend those feelings.

All murder is wrong, particularly if it is socially sanctioned vengeance. If we acted on vengeance every time we felt it, the highways would be filled with empty cars and littered with bodies.

The severity of someone else's actions is not a green light for someone else to be vengeful. If someone plans and murders a child rapist, then they can get the death penalty.

Some acts are horrific, and for example, there are going to be soldiers, kids really, coming back from war zones that will have done horrific things, that will weigh on their psyches, and they will need understanding and compassion to ever get over their acts and deeds, whether they were ordered or lost control, or are just messed up. Hopefully no one seeks vengeance against them.

The US is the only western nation that has capital punishment, that should speak for itself.

[wtmusic]

124. Feelings of vengeance are primitive.

Vengeance has no place in a modern social order.

onedit: and I will extend that to say that vengeance is to a large extent taught. But that's another discussion.

[undergroundpanther]

13. Then let the victims kill them?

I would be glad to help victims kill child rapists.And I would be glad to kill the one that raped me.

Look some people can't be trusted with their own lives,their own bodies freedom or privacy,This is the truth.You might not like it,but it is true.

what would you do with these convicted child rapists ,let them out to hurt more kids? Would you keep doing treatment that fails.Would you torture them in isolation cells?,Would you let the general prison population kill them?(I guarantee that way to go won't be nice and pain free).Would you track them? You know alot of sex offenders are not listing where they are..right? They are running around free raping more kids.

What would you do with them than.You sit there and say like a mantra the death penalty is wrong.well back that idealogical crap up with something that will protect the victims of child rapists..

Tell me what would YOU do with child rapists that cannot be trusted,treated,freed or watched?

You say the state has no business killing people,would you propose the victims of said child rapists do it than?

What is your solution besides a damn slogan?

[Lex]

16. "I would be glad to help victims kill child rapists."

Really? Well, that explains a lot.

[undergroundpanther]

33. What does it explain

That you fancy yourself superior to me?
If you cannot sympathize with victims of the other side of travesties of justice what the hell do you have to offer as a solution? I don't see ANYTHING effective or new coming from anti-death penalty people to stop child rape..Why?

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Practical solutions to preventing it, you believe that the death penalty will

prevent it? I have news, it will not.

What prevents child rape is complex and societal change, no death penalty needed... and the kind that this society is not ready to undergo... and among other things it requires a communal responsibility for raising kids, which is not currently the case.

Those who commit the crime should, in my view, have nice mandatory life terms... partly because sex offenders cannot "be cured" and this includes people who commit adult rape by the way.

But see, most of these cases occur INSIDE the family... and charging these people is near to impossible in some cases, as the rest of the family will resist pressing charges against the nice uncle... I mean Joe could never, EVAH had done that.. that is reality... and that reality means that your case was rare. And kids will not want to charge their uncle if this means death is in the horizon, it does add to the trauma, which is deep already.

So you need complex changes in the society that will allow us to deal with these assholes as a society, and that will also reduce the incidence of this, since the chances of getting caught will be higher, when you have the whole village raising kids, not a single unit of mom and dad.

And you also need to realize that KILLING any of these assholes will not deter other assholes from going there, since you see, they will not get caught. This is not child rapist logic, but criminal logic.

Now you are seeing this from the emotion of a victim... I get it.

But your need for revenge will not stop them either... and that is in the crime stats, for insert crime here.

And in the off chance that we may convict the wrong person, yes it does happen, more often than we care to admit, we cannot reverse the death penalty, we can " make do" for convicting the wrong person. And as society we have, more or less.

As I said the only situation where I may even consider the death penalty, not that it will prevent others, is crimes against humanity... and even there, the burden on the state to go there should be extremely high. So high in fact, that most war criminals will face life and not death.

[undergroundpanther]

59. I never said it is a deterrent

It isn't..
BUT 1 child rapist can create as many as 400 victims in his life.

killing one child rapist does this FOR the rapist:

The rapist will not get terrorized,beaten or killed by the prison population that cannot tolerate child rapists.
the rapist won't be tortured to psychosis in isolation room,
the rapist will never hurt another child again.

The Death penalty stops 1 child rapist at a time. It is NOT,I repeat NOT a crime deterrent. .The Death penalty if performed timely and carefully does not include torture,the rapist will not live to get PSTD.The rapist will not go psycho from isolation torture in jail,he won't be terrorized, injured or killed by prison inmates,he will have a quick easy death.
That is mercy for some creep who showed none to others..

And for victims and potential victims if it keeps the rapists victim count to 3 or 4 kids that is better than 400 kids lives destroyed by that one child rapist if he gets free, escapes a treatment place, the police lose track of him, or a parole board misplaces pity and lets him out.

Some child rapists get as little as 6 months in jail.How is that fair to the victims who's lives are shattered and does 6 months do anything to prevent future victims?

It isn't justice.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. Life in prison will also stop him (or more rarely) her

And that should be mandatory...

That is justice, and takes these people out of circulation

But we also need societal changes that will serve as a deterrent to begin with, such as a full society working against it, instead of anomie we currently have

[undergroundpanther]

65. Life in prision is not a deterrent either

If it were a deterrent we wouldn't have as many people IN there.
So if we get honest jail and the death penalty BOTH are not deterring crime.

There has to be a reason why..
Psychopaths are the problem

But here are some examples of psychopathic behaviour as reported by other authors:

A mother plays a game of hide and seek with her 4 year old daughter. She is holding a large kitchen knife in her hand. She tells the daughter, I am going to count to one hundred, and if I find you, then I am going to cut off your thumbs. The girl, terrified, hides in her closet, and the mother, knowing that is likely where she will be, lets her stay there, terrified, frightened, traumatized, until the very end. When the mother opens the door, she bends down over her daughter and cuts the skin under one of her thumbs.

A family has two sons. One of them commits suicide using a hunting rifle. The next Christmas, the parents offer the very same gun to their other son as his Christmas gift. When asked about why, they respond, "It was a perfectly good gun."

How does such behaviour fit into a belief system that we all have some divine spark within us or that everyone has a conscience? Can you imagine doing such things to your own children?

Our moralizing doesn't give us any means of treating this sickness. It must be understood for what it is. These people cannot be 'healed'. Imagine that same individual in a position of power and you can explain scandals like Enron. Hare reports on psychopaths who go after the elderly. Say an elderly person has been conned out of his or her life savings - obviously by a psychopath. There are other psychopaths who will contact the victim, claiming to be a lawyer who, for a fee, can get the money back. The victim will then borrow money from a friend or relative and lose that to the shyster lawyer.

There are a number of traits that we find in psychopaths: An obvious trait is the complete lack of conscience. They lack any sense of remorse or empathy with others. They can be extremely charming and are experts at using talk to charm and hypnotize their prey. They are also irresponsible. Nothing is ever their fault; someone else or the world at large is always to blame for all of their 'problems' or their mistakes. Martha Stout, in her book The Sociopath Next Door, identifies what she calls the pity ploy. Psychopaths use pity to manipulate. They convince you to give them one more chance, and to not tell anyone about what they have done. So another trait - and a very important one - is their ability to control the flow of information.

If we were able to remove the pathological influence, we might find that our conceptions of "human nature" are wrong and are weighted wrongly because we accept those who are genetically without conscience as "human". Remove them and their acts from the data set, remove their influence from society as a whole, and the higher qualities of human nature capable of conscience might find room for expression in ways that we have never dreamed possible..

http://ponerology.blogspot.com/2008/02/trick-of-psychopath-trade-make-us.html

If we use jails and death penalty to remove psychopaths it might actually be a good thing, the right thing to do,the thing that finally helps people heal..

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Never said it was a deterrent

but the death penalty is about revenge, not justice and it does not meet any social needs. It demeans the society and does damage to that society

Anyhow, we are wasting bandwith

[undergroundpanther]

69. Death penalty

keeps one child rapist unable to rape again 100% for sure.
That is what the death penalty is for.Stopping one child rapist at a time,forever.

And the child rapist is not tortured in solitary,isn't tortured and killed by jail inmates,the child rapist cannot be lost by police,cannot fail to register himself on the sex offender registry..etc.

And a desire for vengeance is NORMAL.Contrary to the taboos and nose in the air moralistic types.It is a normal emotion to have when you have been unjustly hurt.Get over it.

YOU are wasting band with with your same old responses.
I have a right to say what I say,Get over it,leave the thread put me on ignore but I will not be bullied off my own thread.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. Nobody is bullying you

nobody.

You seem to have a problem with people telling you that revenge demeans the society that practices it. And the death penalty is all about revenge. Yes, it is that simple... and even you admit to it. So what is your problem? That we are calling it as it is?

Sorry if you don't like that

And by the way, you can put me on ignore as well.

have a good night, and sorry that you don't get your wish.

[undergroundpanther]

80. Yeah they are

Telling me to"GET HELP" implies I cannot think this is rude.mean.assholey.


Secondly revenge is tabooed that does not mean it is wrong to have these feelings it means society has hang ups regarding a NORMAL human emotion.Revenge is the root emotion for the urge for justice.Like it or not it IS.

Thirdly I am against torture 100%

Isolation tortures.
Being beaten,terrorized by people you are locked up with is torture.

Death is preferable to torture.

That is the first reason I favor DP.The torture problem.
I am against torture.Jail for a child sex offender would amount to torturing them.I am against torture so I favor the DP for child rapists.
Because the DP freaks you out,
Do you prefer torturing them in little isolation rooms for years?
Or letting the prison population have their ways with him?
If you say yes to jail you are no better than Gonzales.
OR you are in denial.

Second reason is it stops one CONVICTED child rapist from raping permanently.
He can't escape,get out,and hurt anyone again ever.

Third Justice isn't always about what is easy.And too many people want it to be easy and people get hurt when they refuse to see what they are dealing with..



That the vast majority of people want to do good, to experience good things, think good thoughts, and make decisions with good results. And they try with all their might to do so! With the majority of people having this internal desire, why the Hell isn't it happening?

We are always going to give others the benefit of the doubt, if you are a moral person. The liar and manipulator will never do that and will use the good will of the person of conscience against him.

We are tolerant of others, in spite of the most horrible crimes, because we project our own inner states on them, assuming that when they go through the motions of expressing remorse, they are remorseful. But for these deviants, there is no remorse, there is only play-acting, a bit of theatre designed to fool us into thinking they are 'like us'.

But they are NOT.
http://ponerology.blogspot.com/2005/12/role-of-psychopath-in-generation-of.html

[ulysses]

97. the desire for vengeance is normal, yes.

It has no place in criminal justice, however. Otherwise, we can just go back to mob justice.

[Andy Canuck]

106. You lock them up for the rest of their lives.

Period. There is no deterent. There is no treatment that has been effective.

Jail forever.

[darkmaestro019]

81. Oh, dear

(hug) (sigh) "Look some people can't be trusted with their own lives,their own bodies freedom or privacy,This is the truth.You might not like it,but it is true."

Don't let Them make you into Them. Remember what Nietzsche said about the abyss.

I hope you find some peace.


EDIT: Because They say that VERY THING about queers or potsmokers or "communists" or pick something...that's a very bad road to go down.

[undergroundpanther]

86. I am not falling into an abyss

You have to understand

We are not all the same.Some people among us (psychopaths )really do not have a conscience,cannot feel shame,or anxiety,and do not care who they hurt.

I am not saying kill people willy nilly.

Convicted repeat offenders, they have been tried sentenced got out,re offended stood trial again, and was found guilty TWICE..That says something about their character and their personality.

Second I am against torture.
In jails child sex offenders are either locked in solitary 23 hours a day-torture

or they are terrorized,beaten and often killed by prison inmates- torture
Living in either one of those circumstances is torture.

DP is a solution,the offender is not tortured in jail and he cannot harm anyone again.

[darkmaestro019]

89. I was in love with what I now know is a psychopath

for ten years.


I am a survivor, too. (EDIT) Of that person, and of ONE of three encounters as a child: one was DEFINITELY RAPE. The other two, one was a kid a bit older than me that I didn't mind, and one was an adult that I also didn't mind. (Perhaps "didn't mind" is a bit of an understatement)

Please don't tell me I was "convinced" because I know what I like, and the thought of these two persons I loved and still love being gassed or injected to death hurts me. I am sorry to say so if it hurts you, but if a kid has the right to say NO....


(sigh) Insert me getting accused of awful shite here.

Sorry if any of that upsets you. I am being honest. Part of WHY I am being so honest is the fact that "psychiatry" would declare ALL those things to be the same evil. That makes me upset. Rape is rape and love is love, and if this gets me banned, DU, I appreciate having been here and all you did for me and I wish you all the best and the brightest.

Now that you've clarified your view, I think I could get behind that. But I'm still not comfy with the people who can't get my address right or who out me to my parents as choosing who lives and who dies, but after repeat offenses, I could sleep at night with THOSE being put to death.

And yes, alone is torture. I'm not even currently officially "alone" and I consider it torture.

I meant it when I said I loved you (later in thread, I think) I loved especially your "right to say no" post and re-sent it to many people.

However, I must say I agree with nadine(forgot rest) in post, about help. Please understand I got my chain yanked by the "psychiatric" institution (how ugly they steal the word for soul!) and that is NOT what I mean....

I mean, help. Real help. Help so you don't feel.....like I guess you feel.....like I feel lots of every day, like death would be a blessing. Once I dreamed a doc told me I had lung cancer (smoke like chimney) and I laughed and said "Is that all?" and in the dream I was happy, and then I woke up.

And understand also, I need help too--and have found nothing. If I ever find anything that helps besides a fat bowl of green and some revenge in fiction, I'll let you know.

I'm not trying to belittle, either. Gentle humor. (Yet sincere.) (On both counts, if you grok)

I think I have spoken to you here and on Unknown News before, but if not, please, do consider reading Andrew Vachss. He is VERY inline with what you believe (and with what I'd believe if I trusted The Powers That Be to execute people) and I do get a great deal of vicarious comfort from his handling of fictional/actual child rapists.

I wished mine dead. I wrote mine dead. MINE IS DEAD, though of course it wasn't me that got to do it. And I must say, I agree, with your statements in general: if it was CERTAIN X was guilty and Y was victim and Y or Y's lover/parents/family wanted to kill the bitch, FINE.

And I must also say, him being free of THIS while I am stuck in it is.......profoundly unsatisfying. I almost wish I could sentence him to burger-flipper and single in a very bad trailer in the deep FL swamp. (Ok, joke........yet not.....)

What I am saying is I am anti-death-penalty as executed (pun unfortunate) by the state, because I've seen how they run things.

I wish you only the best, dear. Even when I disagree with some of what you say I am always glad I read it and VERY glad and very proud of you that you were here to write it.

And if you ever need to talk, I can't promise I can do any good but I promise I will listen. PM me if you are interested. Offer has no expiration date.

Again, to any abuse survivors I am sorry. I am NOT trying to justify the thing what happens when an adult USES a child. I had that, and it was horrible. It left me with many weird behaviors for a long time, including to this day the hoarding of food. Peace to all of you and may you.......scar neatly and cleanly, and with no loss of motion. Because that is about the best that I can wish for you after such a wound. (Kids TRUST grownups so much.......and fear them so much.....)

[emilyg]

4. k/r

[Lex]

8. The state-sanctioned killing of another human being

is NEVER the "ethically correct option."

Never.

[bicentennial_baby]

9. But, that's only your opinion!!

:sarcasm:

:)

[Lex]

11. LOL. You know it took me awhile to realize the death penalty is about *us*

and *our* standards as a society, and has nothing to do with what depraved thing a murderer or rapist did. Of course, they may've done something completely horrible, but that doesn't mean WE then should stoop to that level as well and kill too.

[bicentennial_baby]

17. Well put...I also feel that when we allow the Government to kill in our name

as a society, it creates a slippery slope. So if we kill persons A, B, and C, is it ok to kill persons X, Y, and Z as well? Imo, killing is not justice, it's revenge, and that's not something that I want any part of. And I'm happy to live in a DP-free state, although I wish it were a DP-free country as well.

:hi:

[undergroundpanther]

85. slippery slopes

exist regardless.All I can say is be diligent.I think the main thing is the state is corrupted so the DP will be too.
You forget a jury is 12 people randomly selected helped convict,are they corrupted too?
The state is corrupt argument is the most convincing of anti-DP arguments to me.

BUT
That argument offers no solutions that haven't been tried already and not helped all that much.

[undergroundpanther]

82. but

If you project yourself,assume a child rapist is like yourself deep down ,you make a BIG mistake.Your judgment becomes impaired.

Not all people want to do good,improve or make good decisions.

[Lex]

114. I haven't made that assumption. Actually, to the contrary

I said it's about what "we" have as standards for punishment and not what "they" do that may be heinous as hell.

[Two Americas]

10. couple of things, panther

The state could have the wrong person. That happens far too often.

Months or years of being held in a cell anticipating death is torture, mental torture.

Is there not another way to protect innocent people from predators with certainty?

[Hydra]

12. Of course not

Because our justice system is currently not functioning very well, assuming it ever did.

This is a moot point, however. Some prominent Bushco people indulge in child rape regularly- do you think they will EVER end up in court, let alone strapped to the table?

This is just feel-good BS. Not dealing with the root of the problem.

[undergroundpanther]

38. I know bush co people

are child rapists and I for one would be glad to help strap them to a table. Sometimes justice is not pretty or easy.Sometimes it takes more than clinging to absolutist stances and impossible catch 22's to avoid the fact justice is still not being done,because of ethical cowardice and squeamishness about uncertainties are more important to some than the shattered lives left in the wake of child rapists and a system that cannot do much to stop them, or fails to stop them..Really, if this was a perfect world only the child rapists would get executed.But it isn't a perfect world.Some innocents do die in jail and many innocents die out in this world because of violent crime,hell, all of us will die someday death is not the worst one can face.Torture is..
But if a convicted repeat offenders cannot be stopped,and rapes again,or escapes surveillance,many INNOCENT kids will suffer a long time,completely UNJUSTLY and some of those kids will end up dead.Innocent tortured for years by what was done to them and societies blaming of victims,and dead via suicide.
Child rapists are murderers.

[Hydra]

116. My point with this is that it is simply a distraction

Very few real perps actually end up behind bars. While we are debating what to do with people who may or may not have done it, people who are doing it on a regular basis are standing in the halls of power smirking at us.

They must think we are complete idiots. I'm finding it harder to disagree with them every day.

[undergroundpanther]

21. Ok THERE WILL NEVER BE CERTAINTY

Not in this world.Nope never.

So, Are you willing to to let child rapists harm,just because there is no certainty in this world and will never be?
No certainty..yes there is NO CERTAINTY.

But that does not mean you let child rapists keep on committing rape.

I would rather see a few people go that shouldn't have gone.. than see many that need to be killed ,allowed to ruin more people's lives.

There will always be uncertainty in this world.Get over it.

But regardless of your impossible wish for absolute certainty,in matters of justice..

We are all here on a planet, stuck here with child rapists,sex offenders and torturers making our lives miserable and stressed and some innocents will CERTAINLY be made victims because of these assholes. The younger victims of child rapists are 100% innocent.

A mis-convicted child rapist might be innocent,too in a few instances .. But you sidestep the FACT real child rapists still exist,and have to be stopped one way or another.

How many victims are you willing to let child rapists create while you wait for this impossible certainty of no false convictions to magically happen before you get the guts to do what it takes to stop the child rapists?

What sorts of solution to this problem do you offer beyond your plea for impossible certainty,and that tired old mantra of the death penalty is always wrong?

Treatment fails,punishment fails,prison inmates kill child rapists, tracking systems can be easily foiled,and isolation rooms are torture..So..
Do you have any ideas? Do tell!!.

If you just want to repeat slogans and tell people in pain to wait for certainties that will never be, shut up or offer some ideas that will DO something...

[Solon]

24. So basically you are saying that in order to make an omelet, you have to break a few eggs?

No offense, but I find that appalling. Just because child rapists exist is no reason to support executing innocent people to satisfy your own sense of justice. That simply isn't reasonable. As you said in your subject line: THERE WILL NEVER BE CERTAINTY, and I agree, hence why I oppose the death penalty in all circumstances, it isn't reversible, and those who are wrongly convicted die as a result. That is unacceptable.

[undergroundpanther]

28. you can be appalled all you want

But until you realize the HARM that child rapists do,the damage,the suffering,deep down and personally actually empathize with victims of child rapists, you are talking out your ass.Sorry,..

Look I would gladly die if it meant my death would help ensure a child rapist would not be able to hurt more kids.
My egg was cracked long ago by a child rapist.He is running around free who knows how many kids he may have wounded for life?
Do kids who are hurt and being hurt now, not count for anything to you in your rush to save a few people convicted under questionable circumstances? What about these monstrous creators of victims,they still get 6 month sentences,and go rape again because of misplaced pity or misplaced trust.

Yet many more children are cracked by child rapists than just me..The child rapist crack alot of eggs sometimes as many as 400. Is that not important? Nobody cares about that in these death penalty discussions.I wonder WHY? .They get all self righteous,as they are waiting for impossible things,and I wonder how long are people gonna wait for absolute certainty before they step up and really protect victims of child rapists for real? Treatment has been tried and failed ,jail fails,,tracking fails,sex offender registries,keeping them x amount of feet away from schools fails,yet they didn't pan out.Why?

Meanwhile kids that ARE innocent,are being tortured by already convicted repeat offenders.WHY? Doesn't that tragedy even register sadness inside you? What than is YOUR better solution to this mess? Do you even HAVE one? You might have a moral issue,but that moral issue ignores an even bigger and more unjust issue.

[Solon]

31. And again, that is not relevant to the discussion at hand...

You are appealing to emotion, which is dangerous in situations like this. Like you said, there is no certainty, that's enough to oppose the death penalty outright. No additional argument is needed.

[undergroundpanther]

51. Yes it IS relevant

You are hung up on your ideology. Looks to me like you don't give a shit about the victims of child rapists do you? Certainty trumps justice and safety for you I see.Ideology trumps everything.. You know that is sickening don't you?

I started this thread Not you,it is MY OP.
My topic was about how does this ruling affect VICTIMS of child Rapists? I wanted to hear from people who are dealing with the aftermath of a CRIME.You were not my target audience.Anti-death penalty fanatics coming into this thread like a bunch of flying monkeys defending your beliefs does not make your ideology and arguments any more valid to me.The point is you cannot answer or refuse to discuss what can be done to help child victims of crime be safe? You don't give a shit about victims of child rapists do you?
You just say the same old things.You offer no solutions to this just ideology,DU anti death penalty crowd reminds me of christian fundamentalists.

This thread was NOT for advocating for people in jail,or convicted child rapists or repeat offender child rapists you anti-death penalty fanatics want to prove are innocent against all odds.
Understand?

It is about what do we do with child rapists to stop them from raping kids if they cannot be stopped by available means and death is out,what than? What can we do?

[Solon]

58. What ideology is that, may I ask?

I'm not the one who is talking things to the extreme here. You make claims that have no basis in fact, not only assumptions about myself, but other people on this thread. The fact of the matter is that you cannot provide an objective analysis on what is the appropriate punishment for any child rapist because you are a victim yourself. I know you don't like that, but that's how the Justice system is designed to work.

Look, I sympathize with what you are going through, the pain you must go through everyday must be unbearable, and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I would like nothing better than to see the person who raped you dead, but that is the heart talking, not the rational part of my brain.

However, the rational part of my brain tells me something different as well, that decisions based on just the heart can negatively affect other innocents and that isn't acceptable to me. We need to balance out the need for society to be safe for everybody, and the need for individual rights as well.

You wish to throw the balance in favor of safety, and while that's a laudable goal, it can also, too easily, lead to tyranny and injustice as well, and that's not good for anybody. The problem is that you mischaracterize my position, I don't oppose the death penalty because I believe those who commit such atrocious acts need to be protected from false execution, but because I believe everyone needs to be protected from that same fate.

You also seem to assume there are no options besides the death penalty, you can always incarcerate them, and if prisons need to be reformed to not make it torture, then that should be done. But options exist.

In addition, no I do not believe every child rapist is innocent, indeed, I don't even believe most are innocent. I'm sure most are guilty of the crimes they committed and were convicted of, however, just like in all criminal proceedings, a minority of people end up getting convicted of crimes they did not commit, including raping children. Are we to show no concern for those innocents?

[undergroundpanther]

84. Alot of things have been tried

alot of things have failed.

I see you telling me what you think about false excecutions over and over,and your opinions about what you think the DP does to society but that does not address the problem I posed to you at all.
How do we stop or at least reduce child rape?and do it without torture?


Do you agree that locking someone up in a little room all alone sometimes for years can mess a person up bad? Can you see that it is torture?
That's what happens to child sex offenders in jail.

Do you agree being locked in with a bunch of inmates who terrorize assault and attempt to kill you for the rest of your life is pretty torturous?
Well that is what sex offenders face in jail.

Can you see why I am against torture more than the DP?
Torture diminishes us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Thank you, then you are talking as a victim, and

believe or not, I understand your rage.

But I am not willing to kill an innocent man to satisfy your need for revenge

[undergroundpanther]

40. Convicted child rapist repeat offenders are not innocents.

Not if they are convicted more than once and are re-offenders.
Not if they are in and out of jail for raping kids.You have to draw the line somewhere. Or do you think everyone in jail is innocent?

Vengeance is a complex thing, it is a powerful emotion and need to make things right.The state seeks to suppress this for it's own reasons.If justice via the state is not adequate,or convincing then the state has failed victims of crime and victims desire even more to make justice themselves.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/04/21/080421fa_fact_diamond?currentPage=all

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. That is what life without parole is for

I am not saying that mr... smith, who has done this many a times should walk, but I am not willing to murder in the name of the state

As to vengeance, yes it is complex, but most CIVILIZED countries, and in this sense the US is not a civilized country, has gotten rid of the death penalty, and it is high time the US did as well

[undergroundpanther]

73. Life without parole does not always mean

locked up forever.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/21/AR2007072100660.html
"It (the House bill) still does not guarantee a convicted child rapist will do even one day in jail," Polito said.
http://www.nsvrc.org/news/default.aspx?NewsId=137
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=4340502&page=1

[alarimer]

161. Killing a person we "think" committed a crime is not good enough.

I would rather 100 child rapists go free than a single innocent person be put to death for that crime. Because the standards of evidence are also looser than the standards for murder, it is far MORE likely that people are wrongfully convicted of sex crimes. Therefore, we absolutely cannot allow the death penalty in these cases.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. So you are willing to kill an innocent person to satisfy your need for revenge

by the way, this is partly the problem with the US Justice system and why we have the high rates of incarceration... higher than China mind you... and this is REVENGE

I need to ask the personal question... have you ever been close to a victim of child rape? (for the record, as a medic I have)

It would explain your stance, partially

And trust me, we the crew, wanted to kill the suspected asshole on the spot... so did the cops. but everybody remained professional about it. Hell the cops even talked of the Ley Fuga... but in the end this guy had his day in court

[Batgirl]

47. I am impressed with your use of grade school logic

in defense of the death penalty. It makes absolutely zero sense to claim, as you do, that the only two choices are to either 1) mete out the death penalty or 2) allow child rapists to continue on their merry criminal path.

At first this seems a little murky and hard to follow because of course if your primary concern was to prevent more crimes then you would have to admit this can be achieved by keeping them in prison. However, everything becomes clear with this subsequent, fascinating comment: "A mis-convicted child rapist might be innocent, too in a few instances .. But you sidestep the FACT real child rapists still exist,and have to be stopped one way or another."

Here we have, in all its glory, not just a willingness, but a rather unsettling eagerness, in advocating that the State shouldn't concern itself, and nor should we, that innocent people have been and will continue to be executed in order to make sure the guilty ones are also killed.

Gotcha.

[bean fidhleir]

143. You know, your argument could support both the perp and the victim being killed

You talk about imprisonment being torture and death being more humane. Yet, if you're being honest with us rather than conducting an experiment, your experience has left you very badly damaged. How many years ago was the assault you suffered? Twenty? Thirty? More? That's a long time to feel so flayed, isn't it?

If being humane is the principal criterion we should focus on, why shouldn't the child victims of rape also be humanely killed? Because they're innocent? But innocence is not an important factor in your calculus.

Maybe it would be good to re-think your premises?

[krispos42]

66. Yet, either way the convicted leaves prison in a body bag.

The gov't having the wrong person is a separate issue from death-vs.=life-in-prison

[undergroundpanther]

87. yes it is

But some people can't or won't separate apples from oranges. Sigh.
You are the first one to notice this,Thanks.

[Two Americas]

132. not really

Imprisoning the wrong person can be remedied. Killing the wrong person cannot.

[krispos42]

137. It usually takes a couple of decades to execute somebody

And it goes through a couple of trials and appeals.

It seems to me, in fact, we're more likely to find a mistake with somebody on death row than life imprisonment.

[Two Americas]

141. maybe

Have innocent people been executed? Is that acceptable?

[krispos42]

142. Yes, and no.

Innocent people have also died of natural causes in jail. Is that acceptable?

[Two Americas]

147. so that is a "yes" then?

All people die eventually. No one is suggesting that death can be prevented. We are talking about killing people, when and if.

You said that "everyone leaves prison in a body bag." If that justifies killing, then all killing could be justified. We all do, after all, leave this existence in a body bag. All victims of murder were going to die eventually, anyway. What does that have to do with the crime of murder?

[izquierdista]

14. May you die at the hands of someone

as vengeful as yourself.

[undergroundpanther]

27. May your misplaced pity

ruin your life via the hands of the violent criminal assholes you protect while waiting for impossible certainties..in this uncertain world.May that just world theories be your enduring shame.

You have no clue,what I have been through,and what I have faced and how DARE you tell me how to feel about the monsters that ruined my life.

To see such false humility from such an ignorant,oblivious,arrogant one trick ass.

[PeaceNikki]

100. You've demonstrated in your responses that your bloodlust is all about YOU and your desire for

revenge. You are one sick motherfuckin' puppy.

As was said above: GET HELP!

[WildEyedLiberal]

168. That isn't a nice thing to say

I assume by your comment that you've read UP's responses. Regardless of whether you agree with her "bloodlust" or desire for revenge or feelings about the death penalty, it is abundantly obvious that she is deeply scarred by her experiences at the hands of predatory criminals. Calling her a "sick motherfuckin' puppy" is rather cruel and insensitive in light of this fact. I'm sure you're an empathetic person, so surely you could understand how someone could feel such rage and pain after undergoing repeatedly horrible experiences. So cut her some slack, ok? I'm not about to spend one second judging or condemning the emotions and reactions of someone who has undergone trauma that I can't even begin to imagine. If you had been raped and beaten as a child, would you be a well-adjusted adult with a purely rational and unemotional frame of mind vis a vis crime and punishment? Who knows, maybe you would have the exact same opinions and outlook on life. But you can't know how anyone would react to such a terrible thing.

You can disagree with her opinions and responses all you want, obviously, but I think the personal attacks are beyond unnecessary. If we can't show compassion to an obviously hurting DUer, then what difference does it make if we're anti death penalty or anything else? I agree that undergroundpanther needs help, but I don't mean that in a patronizing psychiatric/counseling way. I have hated people before in my life; in fact I still hate a very particular someone. But hate is corrosive and doesn't do a damn thing to hurt the people who hurt you; it only cripples you and keeps you from moving on and being happy again. So when I say that up needs help, I just hope she can someday find a way to channel all that hate into something positive.

[PeaceNikki]

170. You know what's not a "nice thing to say"?

This:

"Either misplace your pity in the name of some self righteous, ignorant, bullshit idealogical purity, catch 22 crap,that ends up protecting the rapist monster and endangering more kids.Play games and let offenders out in a few years ,give them treatments that don't work, let these rapists out to ruin kids lives and slowly kill them,Via the torture within that remains from memories of what was done to them."

Kinda set the tone, no?

And, you have no idea what my personal history is. Know why? Because I prefer not to post it on the internet as some kind of rationalization for my positions. We're all shaped by what happens in our lives. You can judge me as cruel and insensitive but it doesn't make it so. And I am not the one trying to "sell" state-sanctioned killing in the name of revenge because of shit that's happened to me.

[WildEyedLiberal]

173. I didn't judge you at all

And your tone towards me is far more harsh than mine to you. Why? All I was saying was that undergroundpanther is obviously very traumatized about what happened to her and in light of her experiences her emotions are understandable, even if you don't think they're justifiable. There's a difference.

I never said I knew your personal history, nor did I imply that I did. Yes, her words are harsh and angry, but not everyone reacts the same way to traumatizing events. Some people retreat inward. Some people are able to, for the most part, deal with it head on and put it behind them and live "normal" lives. Others are consumed by rage and anger. All I was saying is that I don't think it's anyone's place to judge someone for their reaction to something terrible that happened to them. So why bite my head off when I am not accusing you of anything? Jeez. All I am asking is for a little more empathy here.

[rwheeler31]

15. How many innocent have been convicted?

[stillcool]

18. Too bad we don't address the issue..

of how rapists get to be rapists. I wonder about these guys that get released from jail after doing 30 years for a rape they didn't commit. I wonder how they feel about the death penalty. Which is better, life for a crime you didn't commit, or death? I'm not sure which I would choose.

[undergroundpanther]

56. How many appeals is enough to

convince you a criminal might actually BE Guilty???


Pain. Anger. Frustration. Hatred. These feeble words do not describe the anguish felt by the families of murder victims. Ted Bundy was responsible for the deaths of more than 50 young women across the United States.(Lamar 34) Bundy was finally sentenced to death by the state of Florida in 1978 for the kidnapping and brutal murder of a 12 year old girl and the deaths of 2 Florida State sorority sisters.(Lamar 34) As if the loss of a loved one is not enough for a family to contend with, Bundy remained on death row for nearly 10 years. Three stays of execution and endless appeals kept Bundy alive for almost a decade, when his victims lives were untimely and viciously taken from them.(Lamar 34) If a sentence of death is handed down, then it should be enforced, not as a question of morality, but simply as an act of justice.

http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~tonya/spring/cap/jana.htm

[stillcool]

102. I really don't care who lives..

and who dies. I am more interested in curing the ills of this society that produce the more horrific traits of human nature. But until then, kill everyone.

[Alcibiades]

19. Imprison them

Away from juveniles, obviously. Prison does work to keep them away from children.

Not that they also couldn't be killed. Nonetheless, I do think you've cited some things here that do overstate the prevalence of this sort of abuse. While some offenders against children do arrive at depressingly high numbers of victims, I don't think we really can actually say "An average serial child molester may have as many as 400 victims in his lifetime. 400!!!" Your reference has no reference for this.

That being said, in cases like the one the Supreme Court handled, where there's no question of innocence, sure, why not execute? I don't think it should be mandatory, however--it should be reserved for the worst of the worst.

[undergroundpanther]

68. References

Here.

There isn't any overstating here,read it and weep.

http://www.darkness2light.org/KnowAbout/statistics_2.asp
http://www.darkness2light.org/KnowAbout/statistics_references.asp
http://www.nhncac.org/child-abuse.html


According to the report of the task force, the perpetrator of the abuse was the late Rev. F.S. "Dick" Wichman. There are estimates that Wichman may have abused 400 children over a 40-year period, but there was no public disclosure about the incidents until after the Presbyterian Church (USA) acknowledged complicity in similar incidents that occurred in a Presbyterian mission school in the Congo.
http://www.layman.org/layman/news/2005-news/child-molestation-victims.htm

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/06/19/MOLEST.TMP

[Alcibiades]

162. It's that word "average"

"Dick" Wichman wasn't an average offender. The bit that reads "Nearly 70% of child sex offenders have between 1 and 9 victims; at least 20% have 10 to 40 victims" would indicate that.

We vacillate between hysteria and complacency on this issue. It seems reasonable to execute some of these folks, especially sadistic types and those with multiple victims. It's far more important, however, for parents to educate their kids and themselves about the specific behaviors that should set off alarm bells.

[noamnety]

20. This is not in the best interest of the child.

I appreciate your viewpoint, and how you got to it. However, a child who has been raped has enough to deal with emotionally, without adding being the cause of the death of another person - one whom they probably know.

That's not something children are equipped to deal with, and it's messed up for an adult to decide that burden should be placed on the shoulders of a child who is already dealing with trauma.

If your issue is that they may be able to commit more rapes if they aren't killed, then I'd say the real concern is that they should be getting life in prison without parole, so they can't create more victims. With that solution there is less burden on the rest of society - in the long run it's cheaper to lock someone away for life rather than having the death penalty at all.

You may want to spend our limited resources on so-called "justice" for the criminals. I would rather see that money spent on things like health care or food for children.

The taste for vengeance is out of control if it's a higher priority for you to kill a rapist than it is to keep them locked up and use the money saved to save the lives of kids who are dying from preventable or curable diseases. Your "solution" comes at the cost of other dead children.

[undergroundpanther]

29. umm

How many psych wards have you been in?

How many trauma victims have you spoken to?

Truthfully I would have been relieved if someone went next door and killed that monster who raped me.I was terrorized by him.I was scared he was going to kill my pets ,my sisters, my mom, if I told anyone.I hated him I wished he was dead many times.I still wish him dead..
Because as far as I know he is free, on the lam,but free..and possibly many more kids are suffering because of him.

[noamnety]

42. I understand this is your personal belief

and that it's based on your personal experiences, and I respect that.

BUT, you haven't lived the other scenario, of having to make the decision to report your uncle, your cousin, or your father, and having them put to death as a result of you reporting them.

Victims' advocacy groups, who are even more the expert than you, agree with me on this one.

A child is less likely to report a rape by a family member if a possible result is that their relative will be killed.
A jury is less likely to convict when they know a possible outcome is the death penalty.

I know you are wanting to believe it would keep more rapists away from children, but the actual reality of what happens in the real world is very different.

And again, repeating myself here, the resources diverted for state sponsored vengeance killings are diverted from people who NEED those resources to survive. You aren't acknowledging those consequences in your posts here.

[Gregorian]

23. People who do these things are unconscious.

We as human beings need to separate the people from the actions. This kind of thinking flies against all logic. And produces automatic responses of anger from people. But it's true. We're punishing flesh and bones. And it's the mind that is doing this stuff. Yes, it is an act against another. A bad one.

Let us not react. Let us see the human underneath. Because we are all human. And at the same time, we are all part of one. Something far more brilliant than just what we see.

We can put to death all of the people we deem worthy of it. And yet we will accomplish nothing until we learn to be conscious as an entire society. Consciousness is not created by killing and punishing.

How do we start to create a world where this does not happen? Let's start with ourselves. I will be conscious.

We may have to put people away. But revenge is not needed. We can make sure sick people don't impose their will on us.

I am only beginning to see things this way. I cannot give a better set of statements right now. But I know this is where we need to go as a human race, or we will all perish soon.

[readmoreoften]

43. Most of the people who molest are molested.

It needs to be looked at as a chain.

[undergroundpanther]

88. That is called the vampire myth.

And it is NOT true.Victims of child rape the majority DO NOT grow up to rape children.To assume that is really blaming the victim.

If you survived physical or sexual abuse, many people believe you will automatically abuse your own children or others. This is NOT true. This is known as the "vampire myth" - once bitten you are a "vampire" who will "bite" others. This doesn't have to be the case, and the majority of boys who were abused do NOT grow up to be abusers
http://www.therapist4me.com/Child%20Abuse.htm

Children that are raped and go on to rape as adults were most likely psychopaths before and after the incident.
Read more here
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/dahmer/14.html

[readmoreoften]

145. There is no such separate entity as "child rape". There is rape.

People who rape children are not "molesters". They are psychopathic murderers who happen to focus on children. But they could just as easily focus on small women or disabled people or the elderly.
And, no, someone who is brutally raped will not turn around and become a rapist.

But I said MOLESTERS and that is a different fucking category of person and action. Those people are normally acting out things that were done to them--seducing children the way they were seduced as children. Many of them are emotionally and sexually stunted people who were fondled as kids by other similar people.

All the bad things in the world don't come from transcendentally evil people that you can put to death. If you really believe that, then go become a born again fundie. Yes there are sociopaths. But that is different than a pedophile or a child molester.

Solving this problem is more important than you acting out your vengeance, and you're by far not the only person on this thread who has been touched by this. In fact I only have ONE female friend who hasn't been sexually assaulted and quite a few male friends who were abused too. Righteous rage means nothing. You want vengeance, go kill the person who harmed you and do the time. That's your own business. But the law is for making a society stronger and putting to death anyone who touches a child inappropriately is bad fucking policy.

[Triana]

113. some HUMANS are psychopaths - and they ARE unconscious - they HAVE no conscience...

...and child rapists are some of the worst of them.

They are unrehabitable, hard-wired unconscious humans. They cannot change or be changed.

[readmoreoften]

146. Then just put to death all psychopaths. Test their "hard-wiredness"

and put them all to death.

Why single out predators that harm children? Is my grandmother less human? Is a college-age boy less human? If someone raped your kid is it worse than if someone rapes my dad in a convalescent home?

Does rape get less important with age? If I'm raped at 12 is that substantially worse than being raped at 15? Or 20? 23? When does it stop being a death penalty offense?

[Triana]

159. "Then just put to death all psychopaths. " NOTICE....

...YOU wrote that. *I* didn't. YOU ASSumed that was my meaning. It was NOT. YOU attempted to put words *I* NEVER wrote in YOUR own frame, then projected that derogatory meaning onto me. How utterly REPUBLICAN.

I'm sorry YOU think all psychopaths ought to be put to death. I don't.

[readmoreoften]

160. Um. No. That's not what you "mean" but it's the logical trajectory of "hard-wired"

The term "hard-wired" is a stupid, pseudoscientfic metaphor people use when they want to end an argument without saying God Said So. If you're convinced that psychopaths are "hardwired" to rape children or anyone else for that matter, why wait until they kill someone to put them to death? If from birth they are WIRED, all set up, pre-loaded, for raping and killing, then why not just have everyone tested at birth for psychopathy and then put them down like rabid dogs?

Or is "hard-wired" some nonsense you read on LIVESCIENCE the same right-wing crapsite that publishes genius information on gay genes, lesbian fingers, and men scientifically prefer blondes.

Because if it's not "hard wired" then it may be learned activity or a cognitive malfunction, hence treatable, hence you don't get your little vengeance fantasy fulfilled.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. And here we part company

the death penalty has way, and I mean this truly, WAAAAYYYYYY too many problems from both evidence and execution

There have been people who have been executed who were NOT GUILTY.

So on those reasons alone, I am against it... period

(the only place where I am willing to make an exception to this stance is war crimes, and crimes against humanity, and not because it has any deterrent value either)

But overall, the death penalty is barbaric.

And I have no patience for child abusers either.

Oh and I am far from squeamish

[PeaceNikki]

34. This OP is the biggest pile of flamebaity bullshit ever.

And that's a TALL order, sparky.

[AlCzervik]

52. you're not wrong.

gd--lust for blood.

[Triana]

35. It seems OK with anti-death penalty folks that the child rapists tortured the child...

...though, apparently. Now, I'm not advocating that the rapist be tortured - but a quick, pain-free death would be appropriate for such a criminal.

Heck, I hope for that (quick, pain-free) when I go myself. Having to stay a moment longer in suffering, pain, and running up med bills would be torture. Dying quickly and painlessly would be my choice.

I don't have a problem with it. Not for me when it's my time, or for a child rapist, whose life ceases to be worth itself once HE has tortured an innocent CHILD and damaged that child emotionally and physically for life. That crime ought to exact a price and that price ought to be death for the rapist.

As for that "sanctity of life" business, here, let George tell ya about that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Djohakx_FE

[Solon]

36. And yet again, that is not an argument in support of the death penalty...

as it is applied today, that is an appeal to emotion, and as such, is itself suspect. The Death Penalty is applied imperfectly in this country, innocent people, along with the guilty, are executed. There is no reasonable way to eliminate that risk when applying the death penalty in the criminal justice system, as such, it should not be used at all.

[undergroundpanther]

45. Thank you triana

>It seems OK with anti-death penalty folks that the child rapists >tortured the child...
>...though, apparently. Now, I'm not advocating that the rapist be >tortured - but a quick, pain-free death would be appropriate for >such a criminal.
That, is in essence what I am trying to say here.
Triana I am glad you see this injustice,the victims these child rapists create because they can,and you get what I am saying here.

I am frustrated with this blind, one sided championing for child rapists and denial twords the victims of child rapists in the anti-death penalty folks it is disturbing to me too..

But they are not gonna see my side, they might even try to paint me as some nasty critter because for anti-death- penalty people..idealogy trumps everything for them.Ideology trumps even tortured children who don't matter to them,ohhh they say, if one adult might be mistakenly killed it's so horrible..Let the kids suffer. It's ok with them that for Each repeatedly convicted child rapist that goes in and out of jail they are trying to claim is innocent,gets out could have made and will make as many as 400 kids victims. Kids that were innocent,tortured and made psychiatric injured and possibly suicides is worth it to these anti-death penalty zealots to 'save' one repeated convicted criminal who might be innocent...This idealogical based ignoring of the damage done to the real innocents,the kids is sickening to me. Thanks for speaking up. They might yell flame bait but that was not the intent of my OP,and they know it,they just want to sermonize to me because I say an unpopular POV on this board. They act like zealots.I know I am in pain and I will advocate for victims of child rapists before I try to justify setting one free.They can get over themselves too.I will not be bullied by them..

[Triana]

108. I think it's a waste of society's resources to have to take care of such a criminal....

...for life. It costs OUR money to feed, clothe, and medically maintain a prisoner for his entire life. To me, there comes a point where the crime committed is so heinous and damaging and costs society SO much, that expending any more on this unrehabitable person, - monetarily or otherwise, is simply unjustified after what he's done. Much better to pay once for the euthanasia meds and be done with it.

We don't reward children for bad behavior. Why reward the worst of criminals for hideous behavior by taking care of them for life for free? I'm sorry but they don't deserve that after they've committed such a crime. It's an unjustifiable expense to society, IMO. So, there's that aspect of it, too. To me, just IMO - it it quite humane and makes more sense for the society this "person" has so done damage to, to just euthanize him after such a crime than expending one more ounce of effort or one more dime on him.

But then I support the death penalty in the most hideous of cases - such as child rape, when DNA evidence can prove guilt.
I support abortion and birth control and;
I support human euthanasia (Dr. Kevorkian performs a much needed service in our society and is not a criminal). We euthanize our animals to prevent their further suffering. Humans deserve the same kindness. And for the worst of our criminals/psychopathic elements in society who have committed crimes like child rape/murder - yep, them too.

[PeaceNikki]

110. That financial argument is bullshit.

http://www.uvm.edu/~vlrs/doc/deathpenalty.htm

Florida spent an estimated $57 million on the death penalty from 1973 to 1988 to achieve 18 executions - that is an average of $3.2 million per execution (Miami Herald). It costs six times more to execute a person in Florida than to incarcerate a prisoner for life with no parole. In Texas, a death penalty case costs an average of $2.3 million, about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years (Dallas Morning News). The death penalty costs California $90 million annually beyond the ordinary costs of the justice system - $78 million of that total incurred at the trial level (Sacramento Bee). The New York Department of Correctional Services estimated that implementing the death penalty would cost the state about $118 million annually. To illustrate the cost, it is estimated that the money it would take to implement the death penalty in New York for just five years would be enough to fund 250 additional police officers and build prisons for 6,000 inmates (Lacayo, 1987).

[LeftishBrit]

131. It's not OK; that's not the point.

If I thought that the DP would really deter people from such crimes, then I might support it for clearly proven cases. But there's no evidence that it does. Places with the death penalty don't have a lower rate of such crimes than places that don't. So it just encourages revenge instincts in society. Plus there is always the risk of the innocent being put to death.

Britain and other Europaean countries do *not* have the DP; yet we do not have a higher rate of serious crimes than the Americans do.

[Book Lover]

37. Get help (nm)

[readmoreoften]

44. Not all "child sex offenders" are rapists.

Some of them are of the old fashioned "flasher" variety: compulsive mentally ill people who cannot be compared with rapists.

Then there are grown people who approach children to try to act out their own unresolved abuses. I think it is cruel to murder someone in this category as they are not much more than an aged abused child.

Then there are conscious pedophiles, a different category altogether, who are indeed very difficult to rehabilitate because they really think there is nothing wrong with them. They think it's great and that they're persecuted.

Then there are the people who just snap and brutally rape and murder PEOPLE (not just kids) while in a dissociative state.

Then there are people who are consciously and rationally sadist. They're psychopaths. They're like a whole nuther ballgame.

[readmoreoften]

46. Why isn't the rapist worth killing when the victim turns 18?

Just wondering. Any stats on how a brutally raped 13 year old is way worse off than a brutally raped 18 year old? What about a brutally raped 80 year old?

[AlCzervik]

48. so what if the victim is an adult, what then? What if one victim is 17 and one is 18?

Are you going to have the rapist of the 17 year old killed but the one who rapes the 18 year old gets 25 years? How about someone who rapes the infirm or the elderly, what about them? What about a rapists who is retarded and the rapist doesn't understand what he's doing is wrong?

[AlCzervik]

49. what if a 15 year old rapes another 15 year old?

[readmoreoften]

50. A 16 year old and a 17 were convicted of child porn for exchanging nude pics

in Florida. The judge said he shuddered to think of what it would do to those two children's lives if the pictures were to go into circulation. The reporter noted (paraphrase) "however, having a child pornography conviction on their records might harm their lives as well..."

[wtmusic]

125. You won't get an answer

but thanks for the questions. :thumbsup:

[TexasObserver]

61. Please stop acting as if your approach is ethical. It's not. It's revenge.

The death penalty isn't about the people who are put to death. It's about us.

You can use all the stats you want, but they don't prove that the death penalty is the appropriate response to heinous crimes. All they prove is that terrible criminals do terrible things until they're stopped.

The death penalty is about one thing: REVENGE. Those who think the goal of law enforcement should be the death of guilty want revenge, not justice. Justice is removal from society. The death penalty? That's just another rightwing emotional issue to scam the working class.

[SeattleGirl]

63. I do not agree with you because I oppose the death penalty; however,

it is a huge and important issue, and one that people have differing opinions on, which I can respect, even if I disagree with them.

[silverojo]

76. Very good post, undergroundpanther

But you can't talk sense into those who oppose the death penalty. Putting someone away for life gives them self-satisfaction in thinking they're "better" than those of us who are based in reality. They can't grasp what you've pointed out, that prison IS a form of torture, particularly solitary confinement.

Yet these same people--if told about a dog that was being held in a small animal shelter kennel for life because it was a dangerous animal that couldn't be rehabbed and adopted out--would be screaming about how this is such terrible treatment for the dog, and that it should be humanely euthanized.

These people think they're compassionate, but their priorities are all screwed up. And it's this sort of screwed-up thinking that has given American voters the impression that Dems are soft on crime.

They ignore the fact that a "life" sentence rarely means that the prisoner will remain in prison for life. They ignore the victim's terror, as the release date approaches. All that matters to them is that (they THINK) they're coddling the criminal, and that's the important thing.

Think about it...they accuse you of advocating "torture", when lethal injection is EXACTLY what they'd do FOR a beloved pet to end its suffering. How can you reason with this sort of mentality?

You can't. The best thing to do is just move along, knowing that there are plenty of people who DO understand your point.

In fact, the only reason I'm even bothering with this post, is to let you know that your point of view is supported here. Many of those who agree with us are afraid to speak up, for fear of being ostracized. But that sort of childish BS doesn't bother me. If people put me on their ignore lists because I don't share an extreme far-left view, then that's fine with me.

I'm a moderate--some of my views are liberal, others aren't. I'm an independent thinker, which is bound to anger people, because I don't walk in lock-step with them.

So, anyway...thanks for the original post. Just wanted you to know that it is appreciated, despite what you may be seeing here.

[Solon]

78. What error rate is acceptable to you in regards to the death penalty?

I'm honestly curious here, no death penalty advocate I've ever talked to would answer this, but I'll ask again. Knowing what we know now about how the death penalty is applied in the United States, how many wrongly convicted people do you think should be executed to make sure the real criminals are put to death?

[B.S. Lewis]

144. good question

I would also like to know what level of uneven racial application is considered acceptable before a moratorium is called for. (Since "fixing" the dp is an impossible task, a moratorium would be a de facto ban, which is ok with me).

Also...cool blog!

[undergroundpanther]

91. Thanks

Glad you liked it.

Sometimes it saddens me to think people are so damn rigid in their thinking,all to tell themselves they are superior to people like us who question the humanity of throwing people in jail, into a place of torture for the rest of their lives..

Yeah they just pull out my past trauma to justify why I shouldn't be heard,assume because I favor DP over torture I am falling into some imaginary abyss or slipping on a slope,they'll assume I am upset when I am not upset,all to prove I'm so morally inferior, they'll say I need help,(forgetting I already go to therapy so?)they say my logic is grade school yadda yadda, How little they know about me..all I can say is selective perceptions, hypocrisy, ignorance and arrogance astounds me when I go deeper than shallow rhetoric on some issues here sometimes.People can be so obtuse.

It's sad really.No wonder things don't improve all that much ethically in this country.Looks like the peer pressure of unquestioned popular beliefs and the force of taboo makes sure nothing ever gets discussed too honestly here it seems.

Oh well.I'm probably gonna get some food and off to sleep.
purrs to you!

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. I'm done with the thread, and we are wasking out time, time to put this thread on

ignore

Have a good one

[darkmaestro019]

79. Define "child" and "rape"

I love you, Underground Panther, but I don't trust Them to define either of those words when right now it seems that "child"=anyone under sixteen and "rape"=This piece of paper we have here says he/she was too young to consent (though we have a different piece of paper that says he/she is old enough to lock up as an adult if we don't like what they did...)


I don't trust Them to decide who lives and who dies. I do not entirely disagree with what you have said here but I ABSOLUTELY disagree with letting Them implement it for many many reasons.

[B.S. Lewis]

90. Why does no other civilized nation put child rapists to death?

Ask yourself this question seriously.

Only in America do we keep halting and saying "b-b-b-but, what about child rapists?".

All other civilized countries have simply abolished the death penalty and been done with it.

[undergroundpanther]

92. Ugh.

Your condescending crap is stupid..

Yeah and
Some countries have child brothels,and child sex slaves,and try to"normalize pedophilia and rape too you know.
That does not mean the victims like it or are not hurt by it jackass,.
If you were raped as a kid I bet your opinion would be different I bet..
No, not all other countries have abolished the DP.

[B.S. Lewis]

93. you're wrong

Your facts were wrong, and your representations of my post were false. Even your ellipsis contained an incorrect number of dots. But I will do a point by point:

1. Civilized countries don't.
2. No u
3. I'll bet it would. Your point?
4. I said all civilized countries.

How about the fact that a black child rapist is more likely to be put to death than a white child rapist? Are you cool with that?

Look at the last group on this page (death penalty permitted) and tell me how many of those countries you believe the U.S. should be in league with:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html

I don't even make abolishing the death penalty one of my biggest priorities, although I do favor it. But knee-jerk emotion-based defenses of it like yours make me react strongly. People don't get put to death so you (or anyone, including the victims' relatives) can feel better. And without even a flimsy attempt to argue for a deterrent effect, that's what your post amounts to.

[ulysses]

99. .

Even your ellipsis contained an incorrect number of dots.

That's just funny as hell. Thanks for the giggle. :D

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

133. Take a look at this map.

Do you think the darker blue areas are evil places?

[ulysses]

94. it's never the "ethically correct option", unless in defense of self or another.

[zanne]

95. You stated that you were proud of being bloodthirsty...

Then you post a long, contrived post to excuse yourself for your bloodthirsty opinion. Sorry. It ain't gonna work.

[northernlights]

98. Instead of death penalty

we should call it euthanasia.

Society has failed these perpetrators, but they cannot be cured and they are a danger to society.

If they were dogs that had been mistreated and were now deemed dangerous, they'd be euthanized. That simple. Everybody would be sad about it. Everybody would agree it's not really the dog's fault, it's the owner's fault. But the dog would be euthanized, sadly and soberly, but quickly and mercifully.

Because keeping them locked up would be cruel to the dog. And not keeping them locked up is too dangerous.

So yes, people who torture and kill their victims -- whether they kill them immediately or kill their souls and leave them to take their own lives when they realize they have been doomed to a lifetime of unimaginable suffering -- should be euthanized.

Not as "justice." Not as "punishment." Not as a "deterrent." But because it would be torture to lock them up, and they are too dangerous to allow loose.

[Triana]

115. EXACTLY. it is euthanasia - and sometimes, it's called for - just like with animals...

...These sociopathic individuals, many of them, are genetically pre-dispositioned to being conscienceless, remorseless, and having zero empathy for any other living thing - no matter who or what. It's hard-wired. They can't change and are a danger to society, obviously, once they've committed such a crime and been proven guilty.

It is torture (for them and whoever they're locked up with) to lock them up (and it costs money) and they are too dangerous to allow loose.

I see a lot of mention of "bloodthirsty" in this debate.

Euthanasia involves NO bloodletting - they are injections - not crucifictions or slaughters. So to frame euthanasia as "bloodletting" or "bloodthirsty" is a delirious overstatement, at best. When you get an injection at your doctor's office - is THAT considered "bloodthirsty" or "bloodletting"? Puhleeze.

Ya know, I hope that when I get older and sick, miserable and am doing nothing but running up expenses in the form of med bills, "the death penalty" will be available to me just like it was for my kitty when she got so sick and saving her would have only meant making her suffer more and would likely have done no good.

[Blue_Tires]

101. i can understand where you are coming from

but let's be honest: you ain't exactly the most impartial of observers on this issue...I'm beginning to think a simple accusation and featherweight burden of proof is enough to make you want to pull the switch...

DP decisions are usually made by people with calm, cool heads sans emotion...And your arguments, while passioned, read damn near like KKK lynch mob stuff...

[lame54]

103. would you be willing to flip the switch?

[PeaceNikki]

105. I get the feeling the OP would not only do it, but get off on it.

[AlCzervik]

107. i'm still waiting to hear about adult victims. Nothing yet.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3521951&mesg_id=3522327

[Phillycat]

121. Yes.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

174. Bloodthristy, vindictive, etc.

People who would pull a switch are only a few ethical notches above the perpetrator.

[Beausoleil]

109. The death penalty for child rapists

is a death penalty for the victims.

Feel better now?

[Mabus]

111. I hear you and understand what you are saying

I've worked with and represented kids who were raped. Some of them brutally and over a period of time by the same perpetrator. I have memories that I wish I could turn off. If I could, I would execute their tormentors myself. Those who prey on children and the elderly, to me, are the worst types of people there are. Those who prey on the helpless should be removed from the gene pool. These people don't do it just once, they do it over and over again and destroy lives as they do it.

[Phillycat]

123. Good post.

:thumbsup:

[wtmusic]

127. Should emotions play any part in a determination of life or death?

You're clearly emotional in your evaluation.

Are the victims' lives "destroyed", or are they severely harmed? Do the victims have no possibility of experiencing joy ever again? Do a perpetrator's children always repeat their parent(s) crimes, or is their entire "gene pool" doomed to the same fate? What have we learned from other efforts at cleansing the gene pool through history?

Some introspection is in order, particularly about revenge and its value to society.

[Dogtown]

112. Peace, undergoundpanther

I'm sorry for your pain. Truly.

You're positing from rage. I understand that rage, but it will not allow for clear or rational discussion because you can't talk about this without getting angry.

There are certain topics I walk away from because of my own rage.

My friend, you want to kill one person, the one that hurt you. You are projecting that onto the entire "class" of people, and I agree that they are unworthy of our compassion. I also understand that you will never be able to consider this point without feeling what you feel, and emotions like that are impossible to ignore.

You should probably walk away from this thread. Please believe I'm not trying to fuck with you. I just recognize that there is more pain here than you deserve, and nothing will ever make that go away. So step back and come back later.

I like your posts and welcome your insight on other topics. It hurts to see you so upset.

:pals:

[JuniperLea]

149. Well said, Dogtown...

I was trying to find those words myself. Happy to see you did.

[Dogtown]

166. Hi, Juniperx

:hi:

And thanks!

[wtmusic]

118. Two eyes for an eye?

Wow. OK. :crazy:

[Phillycat]

122. I support the death penalty, and I support it in cases of child rape.

Period. I hope the court's decision is overturned.

[MadHound]

126. Thank goodness that opinions like yours are not the law of the land

State sponsored murder is wrong, no matter what the crime is. Perhaps we can talk about it further when you can show me that all guilty verdicts are the correct ones. Then again, maybe not, because it would still be state sponsored murder, and nobody has the right to murder somebody else.

[Fumesucker]

129. What error rate would be acceptable to you in applying the death penalty?

You have already admitted that the justice system is imperfect and that innocents *will* be executed.

What proportion of innocents executed by the state would be acceptable to you?

Ten percent?

Twenty?

How about fifty percent?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

134. Here's a better person than you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3522844

[durrrty libby]

136. Progressives loving the Death Penalty, just like China, Iran,

Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.........Cool

[Two Americas]

138. one important point

Opposition to the death penalty is not equivalent to taking the side of the rapists, nor is it caring more about perpetrators than victims, nor is it defending or excusing perpetrators.

[dysfunctional press]

139. you should go gather some empirical data on whether the death penalty is torture, and get back to us

:eyes:

why is life without parole not enough to keep child rapists away from children?

other than a whole vengeance thing...:shrug:

[CBGLuthier]

140. Well, all that emotion aside

the SC said NO. Period.

And you whine about being attacked and then try to paint those of us who agree with the ruling as supporting monsters.

Shame on you.

I have no pity for those people. But I do have a great respect for the constitution and any reasonable interpretation would find that executing for this crime falls under cruel and unusual.

No "child rapist" should ever go free. Thy should be locked up forever. And that is perfectly constitutional.

[DivineDivinity]

148. What about a victim who fights back?

I find it interesting that if a rapist’s victim, child or adult, happened grab a knife and kill their attacker, the conversation would be much different. Some people would be cheering the victim on, some people might be saying the rapist deserved what he got but no one would be weeping and wailing over his death. No one would be saying, "all killing is wrong" at least very few would. No one would be talking about the value of human life and how it negatively affects society when we approve of murder. Isn't that what we're doing when we agree not to charge the rape victim with murder? Didn't she just execute a criminal for a non-death penalty crime? Why not charge her? She murdered another human being yes?

If the rapist is proven beyond any doubt to have committed the crime, dna, video, confession, etc. then if the victim and family can agree with the death sentence, I believe it would be right to execute them.

The argument that the DP devalues our society is the same one used by abortion foes, it cheapens life and thus our society. I reject that line of thinking. A society that stands up for the innocent victim doesn't devalue itself.

[Book Lover]

151. What about the false conviction argument? (nm)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

152. You're describing the concept of self defense.

It's neither execution, nor murder.

Really, this is a concept school children should be able to understand. How old are you?

[Dogtown]

154. Very few here

would make such a generalized strawman argument. That's a RW talking point, tarbrushing progressives.

Take a hint.

[varkam]

178. But you don't need to stand up for the innocent victim by killing people.

That's a fallacy in thinking - one not present in other first-world democracies.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

150. It's cruel and unusual punishment.

Gitmo type shit.

Deal with it.

[DivineDivinity]

155. .

Yes I understand self-defense. It's the same concept that let's someone blow away a 14 year old who breaks into their house to steal a tv in the middle of the night. If it's okay for a person to protect themselves by killing a criminal, then I think it's okay for the state to protect it's citizens by executing murders and child rapists.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

156. A person who breaks into a house is likely a danger.

A person in solitary confinement isn't going to harm anybody.

Stop conflating self-defense with the death penalty. It's ridiculously wrong.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

157. Apparently you don't understand.

You can't shoot a kid for stealing your TV, you can only shoot a kid in self defense.

You're not very old, are you?

[JuniperLea]

153. Killing is wrong, period...

And it lets criminals, murderers and rapists, off the hook.

We should keep them all alive, in the most strict of prison settings, without possibility of parole. We should pick their brains to see what makes them do the things they do.

We keep killing people, but the crimes continue. Killing more people will not stop the crimes. Perhaps keeping them alive and picking their minds apart will do some good.

[Blue_In_AK]

158. UP, I understand your rage

but you're going to be killing A LOT of people. I'm not saying these people haven't committed despicable acts, but there are thousands, if not millions, of perpetrators. Do we really want to get into the business of killing this many people?

[undergroundpanther]

163. If millions of psychopaths die

than millions of psychopaths die.Because psychopaths are NOT LIKE NON-PSYCHOPATHS.They are fundamentally different.They lack the very component that makes a human,humane.Millions have died before in natural disasters,in wars,and I bet more of the war victims and natural disaster per capita were innocent than ANY given prison populace.And they died.


Unlike non-psychopaths,psychopaths believe they can do no wrong, and rehab does nothing,punishment, useless and they are that way because it is who they are,they are like poison scorpions inside a human shell.


Let me give you a metaphor to get you possibly to get what I am saying., a poisonous scorpion stings and kills someone because it is a scorpion it's what venomous scorpions do..Would you feel such a moral issue killing a poisonous scorpion? WHY?

How about killing a thousand scorpions? What if they invaded your house and stung a two year old child to death,would you have such a moral quandary over scorpion rights and plea to others to not kill them all because there is one chance that one scorpion in that thousand did not use his stinger? Would you abandon your house rather than kill these scorpions?

So when you get it that a personality type exists that makes a human body have the mentality of a scorpion dripping venom, it looks like a human but isn't like a human being inside at all and causes much suffering,would you still balk? Would you still try to get the scorpion to be nice?

This misplaced guilt is this belief that YOU could become a child rapist under the right stresses .That LIE is what blinds you to seeing the scorpion in a human suit as what it is.A scorpion that could care less about your life or well being.It stings and kills regardless of what you believe about scorpions or if you are taught lies like deep down you are just like a scorpion.

[varkam]

164. I know you're going to disagree with me, but...

we're not talking scorpions, here. We're talking people.

[undergroundpanther]

169. psychopaths ARE NOT

HUMAN.They lack the internal mechanisms that makes humans humane.
They do not change, they do not stop, they do not see themselves as wrong,ever.They are as predatory and cold as any scorpion.And as human as any scorpion.

READ THIS.Tell me that you really believe you are just like a psychopath without"stress"to bring it out.

http://www.cix.co.uk/~klockstone/spath.htm

[varkam]

177. Psychopathy is a mental illness.

Even if there are people who do not change or will not stop, that doesn't mean that you get to define them out of humanity. They're still people, and I believe we still have to treat them as such. That doesn't mean that we don't take steps to safeguard society and those that they would harm (i.e. long-term incarceration), but it does mean that we don't get to treat them like animals or insects. Moreover, the determination of who does and who does not represent a persistent threat is not such a determination that can be made by emotion or hyperbole. It's a determination to be made by mental health professionals.

Ironically enough, that's how sociopaths and psychopaths view others - as animals or insects.

[varkam]

165. Your data is flawed and dated.

Recidivism is generally low for sex offenders, and there is evidence that treatment lowers that even further. Check www.csom.org.

[easttexaslefty]

167. The death penalty is applied

disproportionately according to race and wealth

[LWolf]

171. It's not a matter of torture, from my perspective.

It's a matter of principle. It's wrong to harm others. That includes taking revenge. It's right to prevent future harm, but that can be done without becoming what you are punishing.

It's hypocritical to decide that killing as state-sanctioned revenge is acceptable, but that killing for personal revenge is not.

All child rapists need to be locked up for life, to prevent them from repeating their atrocities. We don't have to commit an atrocity ourselves in order to achieve that goal.

[Batgirl]

172. according to the OP there's no such thing as principled opposition to the death penalty

The OP in its infinite wisdom knows there are only 2 reasons for someone to oppose the death penalty:

1) They are misguided dolts filled with sympathy for child rapists

or

2) They actually support child rapists

That is how death penalty opponents have been characterized here, accompanied with hysterical assertions that the death penalty is the only possible way to keep child rapists from committing more rapes.

And as for those pesky inevitable wrongful executions, any decent wrongfully convicted person would gladly submit to being lethally injected knowing their life was a small price to pay in order to make sure as many rightfully convicted child rapists as possible were also killed.

[LWolf]

179. Some of us know better,

as we share a principled opposition to the death penalty. ;)

[Celeborn Skywalker]

175. NO to the Death penalty!

Several reasons:

1. Innocent people will always end up being executed.

2. The state should not be in the business of ending someone's life.

3. It appeals to the baser emotions of people such as revenge, bloodthirstiness, etc.

4. It does nothing to deter future offenders from committing the same crime.


As far as your jail argument goes, I think jails should be a lot more humane than they are now. IMHO, jails should be used for rehabilitation and to keep certain people out of society. That's it. I have no problem giving them cable, books, air conditioning,etc. If jails were more humane, I guarantee less people would come out of prison more criminal than they were when they entered.

[ThePowerofWill]

176. Child rape is wrong, yet so is murder.

What are you saying? Government sanctioned murder is ok? If thats the case what about government sanctioned rape?

Let us also forget how disproportionate the death penalty is applied.You would end up with 10 people of color(other than white) for every Caucasian.