I was raped as a child and I have something to say to the Supreme Court:

[bertha katzenengel]

:thumbsup:

All I hear around me is "the Supreme Court was wrong." Even Senator Obama believes the Court ruled incorrectly. That's disconcerting.

Capital punishment is wrong. I don't care what the crime is. As much as I feel the need for retribution when I hear of some horrifying, evil crime, I feel more strongly that the death penalty is barbaric, and that this country should not see it as just punishment.

Perhaps victims' families do in fact feel closure, or that the perpetrator is fully punished and they can relax, or that their need for vengeance has been satisfied. I can't dictate how that family feels, but a civilized society can't allow vengeance in blood. A revenge killing on the street would be punished. Why then is it okay for the state to kill someone?

Again: to kill someone as a penalty for crime is wrong. I don't know how else to say it.

[tekisui]

1. State-sanctioned Murder is always wrong.

knr. Thank you for sharing.

[roguevalley]

139. the OP has guts beyond guts and a conscience that is an example

for the rest of us. I agree with you. Murdering someone for murder is murder no matter who does it. My hugs and much admiration for you, OP.

[zanne]

2. Thank you for your post.

I'm sorry about what happened to you and I applaud your courage for standing up for your convictions.

[zanne]

3. k&r

[ananda]

4. Agree.

Capital punishment is either right across the board
or wrong all the time.

I believe it's wrong all the time.. because taking a
life is taking a life.

[NNN0LHI]

5. If anybody Obama should know better

Here in Illinois the Chicago police were torturing false confessions out of innocent black men and sending them to death row.

Google Jon Burge.

Don

[malaise]

7. He did surprise me

I will never support the death penalty period.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

11. That's why their Governor put a morotorium on executions.

[NNN0LHI]

25. A Republican governor no less

[mopinko]

37. republican governor with blood on his own hands and

patrick fitzgerald on his tail. funny how different republicans (and other scum) act when they see their case file getting thicker.

[redqueen]

98. It's the demagoguery.

Say "child rape" and most people's ability to reason flights right out the frickin window.

It's possible he decided he can't afford (right now) to be too rational, not when most of the audience is going to go all ape$#@^.

[Iris]

107. yes, that's how I'm looking at it. No one is interested in nuances and logistical nightmares,

like putting a child on the stand whose testimony could result in the death of a family member, they just want to hear the "tough on crime" sound bite.

[redqueen]

110. Exactly... it's *nothing* to do with the child, or justice.

It's only about satisfying their personal blood lust.

[helderheid]

146. Oh absolutely - no one should EVER ask a child to put someone (many times family members) to death.

You think the rape messes up a child - try putting that on their conscience. I say this as a child victim of molestation.

[RaleighNCDUer]

142. Yep. He has to avoid a Dukakis 'if your wife was murdered' question

that could hobble his campaign.

[Iris]

157. yep. I was thinking the same thing.

And wouldn't the racist element of the right wing just love to connect Obama with someone like Willie Horton.

[Richardo]

6. From what I understand some victims' rights groups support this decision.

Not for the same moral reasons, admittedly, but still.

:hug: bertha.

[Beausoleil]

15. From an interview I saw with a victim

he stated that it would be morally wrong to put the victim in a position to send a relative to his death. A lot of child rapists (maybe most) are related to their victims.
How fair would it be for "society" to ask a 13 year old child to help kill her own father, for example?

I do not support the death penalty under any circumstances.

[OneGrassRoot]

16. Yes, this was a very interesting perspective on the matter.....

I hadn't considered the burden such a thing could potentially place on the child victim. I'm glad I saw that.

[TechBear_Seattle]

24. An excellent point

It is difficult enough to get victims to speak out and take the perpetrator to court when the perp is not a family member; there is a strong tendency to sweep everything under the rug and let the wounds heal. It is worse when the perpetrator is a close relative. If an accusation could lead to the state killing said relative, it will be that much harder.

[Iris]

109. I think their reasons are moral.

At least the one I heard - which is that often children are abused by family members and as such, their testimony could result in the death of a family member. A victim should not be a pawn to soothe public outrage.

[Richardo]

126. I do too - just not the *same* moral reasons.

:)

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

8. I cannot even believe that there was such a sentence was passed, let alone be decided by Supremes.

I am morally opposed to the death penalty. We are a nation that was created in violence and have consistently remained violent. The death penalty perpetuates that energy. By saying that state sanctioned murder is ok, it is telling the people that murder on some level is ok.

Bravo to you for being able to open up a very personal and painful chapter in your life and have the Humanity and are evolved enough to know how wrong the death penalty is.

[Beausoleil]

20. "telling the people that murder on some level is ok"

I have always thought that the death penalty is equivalent to the government telling its citizens that you resolve problems with violence (actually only one of many ways the current occupiers solve problems with violence). It is teaching us that killing is OK as long as the majority want it and some derive "closure" from it.

I believe the death penalty is a major factor contributing to the sickness of our society. And you have to admit, we are not well.

“An eye for an eye leaves everybody blind.” - Ghandi

[Chulanowa]

67. Some murder has always been okay

Look how we glorify war, or the conquest of the continent. So long as you can designate another human being as something other than a human being - as we do with criminals by declaring them "monsters" - it becomes okay to do whatever the hell you want to them. Let's drown a few prisoners - they're terrorists! Let's firebomb a few cities, they're the enemy. Let's cheer for prison gang murders, they're all animals! Those ignorant savages weren't using the land to its full potential, anyway!

If the death penalty prevented crime, there would be nobody on death row. If war settled anything, there would never have been wars after the first few.

[druidity33]

9. i sometimes think

the person convicted of life imprisonment should be able to elect to be executed instead. But otherwise i agree that there should be NO DEATH PENALTY for ANY crime.

thank you for speaking out...

k+r

[CoffeeCat]

10. I agree with you...

I was sexually abused as a child too. I agree with you, and I applaud you for speaking out
and for sharing part of your life with us. :hug:

I remember Obama saying, during one of the debates, that there was sexual abuse in his family. Possibly
this is why he feels the way he does. It's certainly understandable, as we both know.

However, I agree. We can't become like those who perpetrate these crimes. The cycle of abuse
must stop somewhere, and it's not going to stop with the abusers.

Tons of sparkly light and peace coming your way.

[bowens43]

12. I agrree , captial punishment is wrong. Period.

No civilized nation kills it's citizens.

[gorfle]

178. But...

No civilized nation kills it's citizens.

But what kind of civilized citizen kills the fellow citizens of his civilized nation?

How is a civilized nation to deal with the most uncivil of its people? Civilly?

I am against the death penalty because an ever-increasing number of people in our prisons have been exonerated, some after decades in prison. Given this, I think it's unwise to pursue the death penalty.

But I don't oppose it on "civilized" grounds. Someone who makes the choice to set themselves outside the bounds of civilization through barbaric acts is not deserving of civil behavior in return, other than the due process of law.

[wellstone dem]

13. thank you for your courage to speak out on this

very personal issue. It is not the same for those who speculate how they would feel, were they the victim.

The most powerful statement that I've heard on this issue came from a member of my church, who stereotypically would support the death penalty--lower middle class, hunter, white man. When asked he said, "I used to support it. But then I heard an executioner speak on TV. He said, "He didn't really feel anything when he pulled the switch." That's when I realized that the worst part of the death penalty, may be what it does to the living. That's when I became a death penalty opponent."

I was stunned, and educated once again about the problems of stereotyping.

[The Backlash Cometh]

14. When you die, I'm grabbing onto the edge of your skirt,

because you're definitely going to heaven.

[bertha katzenengel]

21. TBC, that's about the nicest thing

anyone's ever said to me on DU. :blush: Thank you.

[raccoon]

17. I'm so sorry that happened to you, Bertha.

It's to your credit you can say what you said in your OP. :hug:

I'm against capital punishment. Even so, I could ALMOST go along with a perp who rapes a child getting capital punishment, except that in this country so many people are railroaded for crimes they didn't commit, such as in John Grisham's THE INNOCENT MAN (a non-fiction book).

[bertha katzenengel]

19. that book left me outraged

It was very hard to read.

Thanks for your kind words.

[spanone]

18. thou shalt not kill......no asterik...no 'state' exemptions

[AlbertCat]

101. Thou shalt not kill

Alas, that commandment should read "Thou shalt not kill...other Hebrews" because they then commence killing everybody in sight for the rest of the book....with god's blessing.

But Capital Punishment is too great a judgment call....since humans make mistakes all the time.

[oscarmitre]

22. what concerns me is the inability to understand

that if the potential sentence for rape is the same as the potential sentence for murder that the offender has nothing to lose and may as well murder the victim. I don't see that discussed a great deal.

[TechBear_Seattle]

26. Another excellent point

I have seen that argument discussed before, but not in this context. As we make more and more offenses capital, it becomes less risky to just kill people because, hey, if your caught it's going to be the chair anyway.

[alcibiades_mystery]

28. DUers have such a punishment fetish that they don't understand the utility aspect

The same goes for these absurd 40 year sentences for robbery.

Our ridiculous punishment fetish is not only morally questionable, but also practically self-defeating. We're incentivizing murder across the board with these ridiculous sentences.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

80. SOME DUers. It's like the Moral Majoity, which is neither.

They just make a lot of noise. And it's an awful noise that it stands out like a sore thumb.

[Iris]

131. yes, some is right. So is loud. It's surprising to see them in any case. n/t

[crikkett]

34. I wonder how effectively a sentence prevents violent crime like rape/murder

because I wonder how many people conducting such crimes actually care to think through to consequences.

[marions ghost]

51. I think studies have shown

that the death sentence does not prevent violent crimes.

[Jackpine Radical]

213. States with the death pealty have much higher murder rates

than states without.

Violence begets violence.

[redqueen]

100. Some people just lose all reason...

emotionally charged issues are good for getting people so incensed that they cease thinking logically.

[Weezer]

23. If It's Morally Wrong To Kill Anyone

Then It's Morally Wrong To Kill Anyone. Period.

George Carlin

[TechBear_Seattle]

27. I believe it was Carlin also who said,

"How does killing people who kill people show that killing people is wrong?"

[redqueen]

102. Welcome to DU.

:hi:

[whathehell]

29. death penalty for child rapists

I'm not fond of the death penalty, but in this case, my biggest problem with it is that it would seem to remove ANY reason for the rapist to leave his little victim-witness alive.

My research indicates that most rapes (at least of adults) do NOT end in murder..We would not want to change that.

The whole subject is so dark and evil that I feel like raising crossed fingers (Yeah, as in vampire defense) every time the ugly subject comes up.

[EOTE]

36. That's a very good point.

If the rapists know that they'll be getting the chair either way, they'd be far more likely to kill the victim to remove some of the evidence. It is a very dark and evil subject, but what you listed is a reason of paramount importance as to why the Supreme Court decided correctly. Welcome to DU.

[Breeze54]

42. Exactly! The child rapist would just kill the child, if there was a Death Penalty.

Life in prison without the possibility of parole should be the law nationally!

[snooper2]

46. If you are fucked enough in the head to rape a small child..

I doubt they have the logical reasoning to care either way, and probably assume they will get away with it; as they have probably done it in the past and have gotten away with it.

Also, the Supreme Court was deciding if capital punishment violated the 8th, cruel and unusual punishment. If you read the majority opinion they used they arguments posted here and never addressed that issue, which is bullshit. If that's what you believe and want elect people to Congress to change the law.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

135. Don't hang your hat on that.

Sociopathic offenders, including child molesters, are usually very well organized and quite capable of scripting out every aspect of their crimes. That is why rapists, serial rapists, serial killers and others are often so hard to catch. They are predators, and as such have the kind of intelligence and canniness to allow them to offend again by staying one step ahead of the law, by planning evey detail of their acts.

It can be a game for them, a competition with law enforcement. The history of this is extremely well-documented.

Sociopathic serial offenders have some of the best-ordered minds going. The trouble is that in what they are talented at, well...society finds that something less them helpful, withing the bounds of normative behavior.

[geekdem]

169. Selection bias

I think there is selection bias involved in what you are saying. Basically you're saying that serial offenders are smarter than the average criminal. Well, of course they are, they are the ones who've evaded capture several times. The dumb ones get rounded up before they become "serial" offenders. I don't think sociopaths are especially bright, there are simply a few brilliant ones who stick out in your mind because they managed to get away with it for so long.

I think the point stands however that the vast majority of offenders are not the type to think through the penalties and make a cold, logical decision.

Of course that's just as good an argument against the death penalty. It can't be a deterrent if the vast majority of offenders don't think through the penalties.

[Jakes Progress]

152. I tried arguing this an another thread

and was told I was perverted and that my thinking here was bizarre and stupid. That thread was all vengeance peopld. This one has more thinkers.

[AwakeAtLast]

30. I was not, Bertha, but I totally agree with you.

:hug: I am truly sorry you had to go through that experience.

My husband and I were discussing it last night. We both said that life in prison would be a better sentence.

[tuggle]

31. I am depressed because this is the country we live in, a country that WANTS to kill criminals

I OPPOSE capital punishment because I want a democratic government that acts in accordance with the constitution and is squarely within the margins of the code of law, wherein murder is unlawful. I don't want my government to be criminal - it is the JOB of the government to act within the law, whereas the criminal is by definition unlawful.

[Dogtown]

32. Thank you, BK

Sorry for your pain, uplifted by your strength.


The death penalty is an abused barbarism.

[unblock]

33. child rapists deserve to die, but GOVERNMENTS DO NOT DESERVE THE POWER TO KILL THEIR SUBJECTS

the death penalty is not about the guilty. never was, never will be. focusing on the guilty is an emotional tactic designed to obscure the true issues.

the death penalty is about granting or not granting an awesome, undoable power of the government to control its subjects, with eventual corruption and abuses guaranteed to eventually follow in its application.

the death penalty is also about the innocent who get caught up in a flawed system and have a permanent punishment applied.


if one must dwell on the guilty, how is life in prison without parole in any way insufficient?

[crikkett]

35. Thanks, and more power to you

you're very courageous.

[DesertRat]

38. Thank you for the post. I agree.

k&r

[PeaceNikki]

39. Thank you, bertha.

I'm so sorry that happened to you and your wisdom and perspective are appreciated. There have been so many bloodlust threads that I was starting to wonder at what site I was posting.

Peace and love.

[mopinko]

40. iirc, death used to be the punishment for rape in many states. just as folks

are saying- it was reduced both because of the incentive it gave to murder victims, and for the incentive it gave juries to be reluctant to convict. i remember this as an early feminist quest, to change these sentences to something reasonable, because almost no one was being convicted.
especially in the case of child rape, if the case hangs heavily on the testimony
of a child- forget it, there will be no conviction.

thank you for your story, bertha. you are a brave woman.

[riverlady]

41. Death Penalty is wrong.

I will always admire victims of heinous crimes who come out against the Death Penalty. I know that for me sometimes when these vicious crimes are perpetrated, its very hard not to say a person deserves to die but still I remind myself, who are we to then decide to take another persons life. We become no better then the perp and it still doesn't bring back our loved ones.

[HelenWheels]

43. Worse than death

I worked in the state corrections system for over 15 years and the worst punishment for a child rapist is life imprisonment without possibility of parole. These people are despised by the rest of the inmates and they make life a living hell for the rapists. Death by injection would be welcomed by them.

[Apollo11]

104. interesting point

I accept that it would have been morally defensible to kill Hitler or Stalin.

By the same logic, I can see the case for giving the death penalty to a serial killer.

Or someone who premeditates the murder of his own wife and child for purely selfish motives.

But of course, it depends on correctly identifying and convicting the perpetrator.

In some cases it is clear - like the English guy who shot his wife and child.

Personally, I am against the idea of equating rape with murder.

We should give rapists a reason to let their victims live.

We should not stigmatize rape victims by equating their experience with death.

[Lorien]

44. Thank you Bertha. And one thing many people AREN'T taking into

consideration is that more often than not the child's rapist IS A FAMILY MEMBER! How often would a child come forward to admit that they had been raped if it meant that their father, brother or uncle would be put to death? More often than not they love the person who is hurting them, and they need therapy to deal with what that does to them.

My mother and aunt were repeatedly raped by a family member when they were small children. They always loved him, though they HATED what he did to them. A friend of mine was raped by her father throughout her childhood. Eventually he hated himself so much for what he was doing that he committed suicide. She blamed herself for his death and became anorexic, then started cutting herself. It wasn't until her mid 30's that she was able accept the fact that SHE had never done anything wrong. She finally stopped wearing long sleeves, and people would gasp at the solid mass of crisscrossed scars that lined the insides of her arms. "Just part of my messed up youth that doesn't matter anymore" she would say. Now imagine thousands more children doing the same to themselves because the state killed their loved ones...

[snooper2]

45. Rabid Human Beings

Need to be put down just like a wild dog who attacks and mauls somebody...


310 million people in the U.S. and yes, some of them need to be put down for crimes they do against society.

[bertha katzenengel]

47. "Put down" -- ???

I think the word you're looking for is murdered.

[snooper2]

48. wiped from existence..

murdered, put down, whatever you want to use...

MOST humans have evolved along with the rest of the species, but there are still some who need to be erased from the pack.

[bertha katzenengel]

52. Some humans have not evolved to strive for the end of barbarism.

I'll never understand your need for capital punishment.

[snooper2]

56. Because some of the 310 million people here are sick fuckers

That deserve to be put to death...period. The same as you would put down a rabid dog as I stated above, worse than a rabid dog even..






Profile: Gary Bishop molested children for many years without being caught. At some point his crimes advanced to murder, which he discovered also fed his sick needs. Bishop killed five young boys from 1979 until his capture in 1983. To try to control his impulses he would perform his abuse on puppies, but that failed.
After confessing to his crimes he was tried and sentenced to death. In preparation for his execution by lethal injection, he read the Book of Mormon repeatedly and shielded himself from the profanity spoken by the other inmates by wearing headphones. In the final hours prior to his execution he fasted and prayed. Arthur Gary Bishiop was executed by lethal injection by the state of Utah on June 10, 1988. He was 37 years old.
Known Victims:
Alonzo Daniels Age four. Murdered after being kidnapped from his families apartment complex courtyard.
Kim Peterson Age 11. Murdered after going to Bishop's home to sell him his roller skates.

Danny Davis Age four. Murdered after being kidnapped at a grocery store.

Troy Ward Age six. Murdered after being kidnapped on his birthday from a park near his home.

Graeme Cunningham Age 13. Murdered after he vanished from his neighborhood.




Nine-year-old Jessica Lunsford disappeared from her bedroom at her grandparents' home in the middle of the night Feb. 23, 2005. A massive search was launched for the missing girl that drew the attention of national television networks over the following three weeks.
Police found the body of Jessica Lunsford buried in a shallow grave under the back porch of a mobile home less than 150 yards from her home on March 18, 2005, a day after a convicted sex offender told authorities that he had killed the nine-year-old.





Dean Corll:
Dean Corll was a 33-year-old electrician living in Houston, Texas, who with two teen accomplices was responsible for kidnapping, torturing, raping and murdering at least 27 young boys in Houston in the early 1970s. The Houston Mass Murders, as the case was later called, became one of the most horrific series of murders in U.S. history.

There was nothing remarkable about Corll except for his odd choice of friends, who were mostly young male teens. Two, who were particularly close to Corll, was a 14-year-old boy named Elmer Wayne Henley and a 15-year-old boy named David Brooks. The three spent much time hanging around at Corll's house or driving with him in his van. That was until August 8, 1973, when Henley shot and killed Corll at his home. When police interviewed Henley about the shooting and searched Corll's home for evidence, a bizarre and brutal story of torture, rape and murder began to unfold.
$200 Per Head:
While in police custody, Henley began to tell about his relationship with Corll. He said Corll paid him $200 or more "per head" to lure young boys to his house. Most of the boys were from low-income Houston neighborhoods and were easily persuaded to come to a party where there would be free alcohol and drugs. Many were also childhood friends of Henley and had no reason to distrust his intentions. But once inside Corll's home, they would soon become victims of his sadistic and murderous obsessions.
The Torture Chamber:
Police skepticism towards Henley's story turned after searching Corll's house. Inside they discovered a bedroom that looked as if it was designed for torture and murder. There was a board with handcuffs attached, ropes, a large dildo and plastic covering the carpeted floor. There was also an odd wooden crate with what appeared to be airholes cut into it.
Henley Talks:
When Henley described what had happened before shooting Corll, the items in the room corroborated his story. According to Henley, he made Corll furious when he brought his young girlfriend over to the house with another friend, Tim Kerley. The group drank and did drugs and each fell asleep. When Henley awoke, his feet were bound and Corll was handcuffing him to his "torture" board. His girlfriend and Tim were also bound with electrical tape over their mouths. Henley was fully aware of what was to follow, having witnessed this same scenario before.
He managed to convince Corll to free him by promising to participate in the torture and murder of his friends. Once free, he went along with some of Corll's instructions, including attempting to rape the young woman. Corll meanwhile, was trying to rape Tim, but the young boy fought so much Corll, frustrated, left the room. Henley immediately went for Corll's gun which he left behind. When Corll returned, Henley shot him six times, killing him.

Burial Grounds:
Over the next few days, Henley readily talked about his part in the murderous activity in Corll's house. He led the police to where many of the victims were buried. The first location was a boatshed Corll rented in southwest Houston. There police uncovered the remains of 17 of the boys Corll had murdered. Ten more bodies were found at various other burial sites in or near Houston. Altogether there were 27 bodies recovered.
Brutal Torture and Murder:
An examination of the victims determined that some of the boys had been shot, others strangled to death. Signs of torture were visible, including castration, objects inserted into the victim's rectums and glass rods pushed and into their urethras. All had been sodomized.
Did Houston Police Fail?
There was much criticism launched at the Houston police department for failing to investigate the many missing person's reports filed by the parents of the dead boys. The police viewed most reports as probable runaway cases although many of them came from the same area or neighborhood.

The Victims
The ages of the young victims ranged from ages nine to age 21, however most were in their teens. Two of the families suffered losing two sons to Corll's deadly rage. Henley confessed to knowing about Corll's brutal crimes and also to participating in murdering one of the boys. Brooks, although closer to Corll than Henley, told police that he had no knowledge of the crimes.





Richard Chase: Richard Chase savegely murdered six people, but one has to wonder if others shared some of the blame.
His parents and health officials considered him stable enough to live without supervision, in spite of the fact he displayed severe abnormal behavior from an early age.

By the age of 10, Chase displayed three known warning signs of children who grow to become serial killers - bed-wetting beyond the normal age, cruelty to animals and setting fires.

First Murder:
December 29, 1977 - Chase killed 51-year-old Ambrose Griffin in a drive-by shooting. Griffin was helping his wife bring groceries into the house when he was shot and killed.
Random Violent Acts:
January 11, 1978 - Chase attacked a neighbor after he asked for a cigarette then restrained her until she turned over the entire pack. Two weeks later, he broke into a house, robbed it then urinated inside a drawer containing infant clothing and defecated on the bed in a child's room. Interrupted by the owners return, Chase was attacked but managed to escape.

Unlocked Doors:
Chase continued to search for unlocked doors of homes to enter. He believed a locked door was a sign that he was not wanted, however an unlocked door was an invitation to enter.
Second Murder:
January 23, 1978 - Teresa Wallin, pregnant and at home alone, was taking out the garbage when Chase entered through her unlocked front door. Using the same gun he used to kill Griffin, he shot Teresa three times, killing her, then raped her corpse while stabbing her several times with a butcher knife. He then removed multiple organs, cut off one of the nipples and drank the blood. Before leaving, he collected dog feces from the yard and stuffed it into the victim's mouth and down her throat.
Final Murders:
January 27, 1978 - The bodies of Evelyn Miroth, age 38, her six-year-old son Jason, and friend Dan Meredith, were found murdered inside Evelyn's home. Missing was Evelyn's 22-month-old nephew David, who she had been baby sitting. The crime scene was horrific. Dan Meredith's body was found in the hallway. He was killed with a direct gunshot would to his head. Evelyn and Jason were found in Evelyn's bedroom. Jason had been shot twice in the head.

The depth of Chase's insanity was clear when investigators went over the crime scene. Evelyn's corpse had been raped and sodomized multiple times. Her stomach had been cut open and various organs were removed. Her throat was cut and she had been sodomized with a knife and there was a failed attempt to remove one of her eyeballs.

Not found at the murder scene was the infant, David. However, blood in the baby's crib gave police little hope the child was still alive. Chase later told police that he brought the dead infant to his apartment. After mutilating the baby's body he disposed of the corpse at a nearby church, which is where it was later found.

What he did leave at the grotesque murder scene were clear hand and shoe prints, which soon led police to his door and to the end of Chase's insane rampage.

The End Result:
In 1979, a jury found Chase guilty on six counts of first-degree murder and he was sentenced to die in the gas chamber. Disturbed by the gruesome details of his crimes, other prisoners wanted him gone and often tried to talk him into killing himself. Whether it was the constant suggestions or just his own tortured mind, Chase managed to collect enough prescribed antidepressants to kill himself. On December 26, 1980, prison officials discovered him dead in his cell from an overdose of medications.

[MadHound]

61. Perhaps you should examine the health of your own psyche,

If all you can do is lash out at people, compare them to rabid dogs, and call for their state sponsored murder.

How can you be one hundred percent sure that those people are innocent? You can't, yet you're willing to murder them. Sorry, but that's why states like IL discontinued their executions, because too many people were turning up innocent.

Besides, what gives you, or the state, or for that matter anybody else the right to take another human beings' life? That's not justice, that's vengeance. And it frankly doesn't solve a thing.

Besides, it is more expensive to put an inmate to death than it is to keep them in prison for life.

Morally, socially, economically, state sponsored murder is wrong. Thank goodness the Supremes got this one right.

[snooper2]

64. DNA evidence will prove they are guilty..

And yes, I guess I have a fucked up psyche because I lash out at people in society who act like this...jeez :eyes:

"Using the same gun he used to kill Griffin, he shot Teresa three times, killing her, then raped her corpse while stabbing her several times with a butcher knife. He then removed multiple organs, cut off one of the nipples and drank the blood. Before leaving, he collected dog feces from the yard and stuffed it into the victim's mouth and down her throat."

Oh, that poor guy...he is just mis-understood and was brought up wrong. We should care for him and make sure he gets his fitness and three meals a day. :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[MadHound]

70. Stop that shit right now, OK!

Just because I don't believe in murdering my fellow human being does not mean that I'm in favor of molly coddling criminals. Most of you fucking deatheaters automatically jump to that conclusion, and start making amazingly asinine statements like yours, exposing your ignorance for all to see.

And frankly pal, anything that you put up on the boards isn't going to horrify me, or traumatize me any worse than what I've seen in life. Have you ever had a loved one raped, mutilated and murdered? I have, and yet I still have the humanity not to wish the death penalty on her murderer. What happened to yours? Were you born without it or did you leave it behind somewhere?

Oh, and as far as DNA evidence goes, it can be planted, faked and otherwise made to look like an innocent person did the crime, so much for that infallibility.

[snooper2]

111. See, that's the difference between you and me

As far as I am concerned these sick bastards are not my "fellow human being"


Having humanity is not letting these people exist in civilized society. I guess that point is going to fall on deaf ears with you though, pal...

[ieoeja]

141. You didn't address the last point.

Reality is that it is much easier to plant DNA evidence than it is, say, a thumbprint.

DNA evidence is remarkably easy to plant. So it might be handy for helping prove someone's innocence (his/her DNA not found), but just about the worst possible evidence ever for proving guilt.

How is that done? Cops question you for a couple hours. They offer you a glass/bottle of water. They take your glass down to the evidence locker. They use the little rape victim's panties to wipe your saliva off the rim of the glass/bottle.

They now have that perfect DNA evidence they need to convict you.

Illinois is the only state to do a full, extensive review of every case of every convict on death row. They found that the majority were actually innocent of the crime. In some cases they simply had lousy defense. In many cases they were tortured into giving confessions.

Do you seriously think cops who torture confessions would balk at planting DNA evidence?

I guess that's the one good thing about convincing people that DNA is the "perfect" evidence of guilt. Instead of torturing and executing innocent people, we will now only execute them.

[fascisthunter]

177. it's sounds like this is about vengeance

death penalty does:

1. not deter killers from killing, killers(psychos) kill regardless, maybe even fantasize they will be martyred

2. become expensive to the tax payer

3. and is used erroneously on innocent bystanders all too often


why then? Pure malice, so much so, folks who have noting to do with those victimized want death. Empathy is one thing, but vengeance is another. Letting folks rot in prison for the rest of their lives, now that's punishment. Killing them gets them off the hook.

[cesar008]

143. Death penalty

We live in a democratic society. If WE don't like the death penalty and think its wrong then you have a lot of persuading to do to the people to change there minds to your values.
Its Law, Its Legal in many states.

"Science does really draw a conclusion. It did. There is no question about it," said Naci Mocan, an economics professor at the University of Colorado at Denver. "The conclusion is there is a deterrent effect."
A 2003 study he co-authored, and a 2006 study that re-examined the data, found that each execution results in five fewer homicides, and commuting a death sentence means five more homicides. "The results are robust, they don't really go away," he said. "I oppose the death penalty. But my results show that the death penalty (deters) — what am I going to do, hide them?"
Statistical studies like his are among a dozen papers since 2001 that capital punishment has deterrent effects. They all explore the same basic theory — if the cost of something (be it the purchase of an apple or the act of killing someone) becomes too high, people will change their behavior (forego apples or shy from murder). http://www.dpinfo.com/

WITH DEATH PENALTY:
Alabama
Arizona
Arkansas
California
Colorado
Connecticut
Delaware
Florida
Georgia
Idaho
Indiana
Illinois
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Maryland
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana
Nebraska
Nevada
New Hampshire
New Mexico
North Carolina
Ohio
Oklahoma
Oregon
Pennsylvania
South Carolina
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Virginia
Washington
Wyoming

ALSO
- U.S. Gov't
- U.S. Milita

WITH OUT DEATH PENALTY:
Alaska
Hawaii
Iowa
Maine
Massachusetts
Michigan
Minnesota
North Dakota
New Jersey
New York
Rhode Island
Vermont
 West Virginia
Wisconsin

ALSO
- Dist. of Columbia

[iamthebandfanman]

163. nah, you just think killing can be justified.

hence your example of killing a dog.

so, the wild animal gets punished because man was on its turf?

please.
you just dont value life worth a shit. be honest.

besides, death is an easy out.

[marions ghost]

71. it doesn't help society to kill insane people.

He's insane, no matter what caused it.

What does killing an insane killer do for anybody? :shrug:

[redqueen]

103. Satisfy the morbid, raging bystanders' blood-lust.

For one.

[northzax]

105. and that doesn't strike you, in any way shape or form

as a mentally ill person? remove him from society, permaently. but yes, we are judged by how we treat those that are the most at our mercy, including insane (this can only be considered insane, sorry) murderous assholes like this.

[snooper2]

113. mentally retarded or insane are one thing...

You can thank Reaguns for screwing the mental hospitals...

Was BTK insane? No, just sick sick sick...

[northzax]

117. by definition, maybe not

but in reality? yes, serial killers are insane. there is something wrong upstairs. it probably can never be fixed, and they should never see a sunset again.

the death penalty made a lot of sense in communities that had to make a choice between giving resources to society and spending them on prisoners. if you only have a one cell jail, you can't keep someone there for long. and then is was spectacle. we have the resources to keep the BTK killer in jail for his natural lifespan, easy, so we should. we no longer use executions as spectacle or for political purposes, we do them in the dark, quietly. so they no longer serve any purpose.

I will support the death penalty when it is evenly applied. the penalty for first degree murder should be death. public death. one appeal to the state supreme court, one to the feds. execution within a year of sentencing. meanwhile, abolish 'life in prison' sentences. taking a human life is either justified (no sentence) an accident (manslaughter, five years) or intentional (death) no exceptions. make juries make that choice: do you want this person back on the streets in five years, now, or dead? and then kill them publically. use the same pool for jury duty to determine who pulls the lever to kill the condemmned. let's stop trying to make this secret and sanitary. society wants to kill people? fine, let US do it. make us do it. penalty for not responding to your execution summons? mandatory five years.

so let's enforce it, fairly. go free or die. and make one of us pull the hangman's lever. in public, on TV. let's see how much people support the death penalty then.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

212. Hmmm... No

yes. terrible people who did vile things. executing them is wrong.

ask these people who were killed and then later found to be innocent... oops, can't ask them since they are dead.
Innocent Man Executed in Texas
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1121-05.htm

Witness Clears Man Executed In Texas for 1985 Slaying
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/21/AR2005112101384.html

Freddie Lee Wright, innocent man executed in Alabama
http://www.ccadp.org/freddiewright.htm

Man executed on disproved forensics
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/na/chi-0412090169dec09,0,7244555.story?coll=chi-news-hed

Was an Innocent man executed on May 20, 1992
http://richmond.indymedia.org/newswire/display/11508/index.php

There's lots more but you get the picture, right?

[marions ghost]

54. might feel like justice,

but "erasing" basically doesn't do anything to change anything.

Containment and control is possible, but erasing is futile. Erase one and another crops up.

Raise people to respect and value others, not to use and abuse. It can be done.

[snooper2]

57. Check my post above..

#56

Yeah, those poor souls were just brought up wrong

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

78. Take a look at this map.

Do you think the areas in darker blue are evil?

[redqueen]

97. And if they're wrongly convicted? You're OK with murdering innocent people? (nt)

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

176. I sure the hell am not OK with murdering innocent people...

...that's what seals the "no death penalty" deal, for me.

[varkam]

119. And just who would get to decide who gets murdered?

:shrug:

[iamthebandfanman]

162. i dont think dogs should be put down

so, what you said means nothing to me.

[Blue_In_AK]

49. Sadly, Bertha, you are far from alone.

I make my living typing legal transcriptions. I have transcribed dozens of grand juries and trials involving child sexual assault in varying degrees that have taken place in my state. They are all horrible and heartbreaking, but if we were to start executing the perpetrators, where would we draw the line? What makes one child assault more heinous than another? Who would decide who gets to live and who gets to die? To me, the death penalty should never be employed because the opportunities to deliver unequal "justice" are simply too great.

[ComtesseDeSpair]

50. Obama's Statement Is Very Depressing

I have to wonder ... does he REALLY believe in the death penalty, or is he just saying this to try to appeal to the gun-loving pro-death voters? I just can't believe that anyone as seemingly intelligent as Obama would be pro-death penalty, especially coming from Illinois where the guilt of so many on death row is in doubt. Especially as an African-American man - knowing that so many of his fellow African-American men are on death row only because they couldn't afford decent defense lawyers. It just seems to go against everything I would expect Obama to believe in.

I tell you, between this pro-death penalty statement and the lack of opposition to the FISA bill, my Obama enthusiasm has gone from off the charts last week to an almost John Kerry-esque level of "he's a douchebag but I'm voting for him anyway" disappointment. I feel like an idiot for having had so much faith in him. Maybe he'll turn out to be the progressive president that I thought he could be after all... but right now Johnny Rotten's voice keeps echoing in my head: "Ever had the feeling you've been cheated?"

[ForeignSpectator]

122. You mean the "pro life before birth / pro death post birth" voters...

:crazy:

[Skittles]

145. he's pandering for votes

that's what politicians do

[Phillycat]

53. The court was wrong.

I say that as another survivor. But I support the death penalty in general.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

55. Bertha, you are my hero.

I feel 100% the same way. But you can speak from experience, whereas I cannot. Which makes your opinion all the more valuable.

Oh, and go Blue Crabs, by the way.

[TBF]

58. My reply is that things are not always black/white - think about how we

support a woman's "right to choose". Some argue that is killing. I'm still in the "right to choose" camp (just to be clear), but after having 2 children and seeing their very early sonograms it has become one of those issues I continually debate internally.

I do want to say that I appreciate the courage it took for you to post about your experience, and your opinion does come with extra weight because of that experience.

I'm not as forgiving, I'd personally like to kill the bastard for you. But I guess that is why we have the courts.

[TNOE]

59. What about the Catholic Priests?

Can you imagine how many of them would be sitting on death row? Not that I think that's a bad thing - but the world would have a hard time putting a priest to death.

[MonkeyFunk]

60. I agree with you

thanks for posting this, Bertha. Much appreciated.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Phillycat]

84. What the fuck kind of statement is that?

You're talking about two survivors of childhood sexual abuse. How dare you? :grr:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

86. I call 'em as I sees 'em.

[fascisthunter]

62. wow... thumbs Up to You

That takes a lot for some people. I really appreciate your post and hope your life is fullfilling.

- Child of a rape victim....



:hug:

[MedleyMisty]

63. I wasn't raped, but I did go through some rather minor sexual abuse

So although my opinion does not have the weight of yours - I agree.

[SalviaBlue]

65. Thank you for taking a stand. I am standing with you.

Capital punishment is wrong.

[northernlights]

66. I used to agree, but not any more

I don't think in terms of punishment so much as euthanasia.

1. They cannot be cured. Therefore, are a constant threat if turned loose.

2. Life in prison is cruel and unusual punishment. It is closer to torture than punishment.

There are fates worse than death. Much worse. In fact, we will all die sooner or later anyway. Sooner saves them much suffering. And it saves many potential victims.

So the options are:

1. turn them loose to torture other children, or
2. keep them in a cell, which is torturing them
3. euthanise and end the suffering.

I choose 3. I agree with Obama on this one.

[ComtesseDeSpair]

68. Yes, but...

You're assuming that the conviction is accurate. How many times are innocent people convicted and isn't until years later that new evidence overturns their convictions? If they are still alive, they at least still have some life left to live after they are released.

[Iris]

87. And since most children who are abused are abused by someone they know, often times family members,

then we would be asking children give testimony that could lead to the death of someone they know - maybe even a family member. That could be seen as further torture of the child.

[bertha katzenengel]

112. You agree with Obama on "euthanasia?" Or you agree with him on "cruel and unusual

punishment?"

Where do you agree with Sen. Obama? Your post is unclear.

And -- how is imprisonment cruel and unusual punishment?

[justaregularperson]

190. Despite the propaganda that is usually presented most sex offenders *do not* repeat the offense

Drives me nuts when I see all of the bad data being spread. The recidivism rate is not much different than other crimes. Search and read... I did (researched) some time ago to get at the truth.

Having said that, it is a particularly terrible crime and sentences should reflect that. But we really need to stop repeating fear propaganda.

I am also very concerned for our society. Revenge as justice is becomming a more and more accepted idea. That is barbaric and will eventually lead to all sorts of injustice.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

69. i agree nt

[El Fuego]

72. There are people who have been unjustly accused of child molestation

I'm always bothered by accounts of people convicted of a sex crime and serving prison time, and it turns out they were falsely accused by brain-washed young children. Little kids are susceptible to suggested memories, and also lie because they don't understand the consequences.

I just saw a story on MSNBC where a man was in prison for over 20 years, and the children who testified against him later told the truth, that he was innocent. The now-grown children said they lied out of fear because they were threatened by the social workers and police with being taken away from their families.

What if someone were put to death because of a young child's unreliable testimony? That sends shivers up my spine.

[glitch]

73. I don't like the death penalty for mixed reasons

In addition to your reason, I think life in prison without possibility of parole is a worse punishment than death (vengeance, you bet, but also to protect society). And if someone is mistakenly convicted there is at least the possibility of that mistake being rectified. And that the death penalty is applied so unevenly, hardly "justice" even if the all the other arguments against it are discounted.
I agree with Kerry and Dukakis on this one.

[Bluerthanblue]

74. I share more than your view on capital punishment-

Bertha.

And my life experiences have shown me nothing as clearly as the FACT that there is far too much killing and hurting in this world as it is. Killing as a "punishment" is still killing- and still wrong.

There are far too many of us that understand the experience personally-

peace~
blu

[skooooo]

75. Laws shouldn't be based on emotion..

...but principle. I'm not totally against the death penalty for heinous mass murder, but I am vehemently opposed to the expansion of the death penalty to other crimes. Once you go down that road, we can all make arguments for various terrible crimes what we think justify it. It will never end.

:thumbsdown:

[Iris]

82. Excellent point. People who do that would be just as likely to treat these same children as adults

were they to commit a crime they deem heinous enough.

There are also the logistics to consider. Since most children who are sexually abused are abused by members of their family or someone they know, we would be asking those children to testify in a trial that would result in the death of a family member or someone they know. That's an awful lot to put on a kid when time and energy would better be spent helping the child recover and move on.

[bertha katzenengel]

125. My opinion isn't based on emotion.

My rejection of the death penalty is based on what is right. To kill a human being is wrong.

[penndragon69]

76. If they ARE guilty..

If their guilt is confirmed by DNA or video evidence, then i say push them off a 20 story building.
It's past time to start thinning out the gene pool of these sick, perverted Cretans.

Murder and rape ( if factually proven ) should earn the ultimate penalty.
Death!

And anyone who opposes the death penalty should be willing to house and feed
these creeps in their own homes with them staying in the room next to their own
children!

Do we have any takers????

I didn't think so.

[Iris]

83. Why should I house and feed a criminal in my own home when I pay taxes to keep them in jail?

Your logic is just stunning.

[LanternWaste]

94. And this statement is...?

"And anyone who opposes the death penalty should be willing to house and feed
these creeps in their own homes with them staying in the room next to their own
children!"

First off, why? You make it appear as though it's an either-or option and we all know it is most certainly not.


Additionally, your statement is precisely and relevantly based on what...?





"Do we have any answers??? I didn't think so."

[bertha katzenengel]

108. Should be willing to house and feed . . . tell me why.

How did this become an option? Is this something you pulled out of thin air?

WHY should I be willing to do this?

[penndragon69]

165. AS i expected..

Everyone who is against the death penalty for the guilty freaks who rape and murder
should be happy to do their part to help reform these poor lost souls.

But wait.....you'd rather the govt waste 100's of thousands a year to warehouse these monsters,
just as long as your precious little bundles are all safe and cozy.

God,Guts and a little loving guidance will reform them to be reliable citizens.. BULLSHIT !

A monster or a republican will never change.

Better to let them fry on a spit or be drawn & quartered.

[justaregularperson]

191. Don't forget hanged and branded!

I am not completely against the death penalty. But I find people who talk like you are here somewhat frightening just as I find rapists and murders also frightening.

The ideas of revenge justice are corrupt and barbaric...

[bertha katzenengel]

207. Your logic is poor. Your fallacies are two-fold. If you can stop shouting "bullshit,"

we can continue to talk about this.

There is no correlation between opposition to the death penalty and “reform those poor lost souls.” You’ve committed a logical fallacy here called a false dilemma, where two alternative statements are held to be the only possible options, when in reality there are several.

While you may prefer to “waste 100’s of thousands a year” of our tax money on the appellate courts (death penalty sentences are automatically appealed in most states) while we still pay costs of incarceration, my preference is to be done with the business and simply apply a mandatory life without parole sentence.

I notice you must demonize and dehumanize these people in order to justify your urge for vengeance and state-sanctioned killing. Whether you like it or not, these offenders - monsters all - are human beings, and when the government executes these people they are killing in your name and mine. I deeply resent the government killing in my name; I do not believe that capital punishment is just, is equitably applied or is appropriate for a civilized society. I believe capital punishment is a barbaric practice that seeks revenge, not justice. Our society and its laws are based on justice; when we ardently seek revenge we abase ourselves so we are no better than the offender whom we wish to execute.

Who said, “God, Guts and a little loving guidance will reform them to be reliable citizens?” I believe that was you. That is another logical fallacy called a straw man argument. You introduced a statement into the debate, inferred it was someone else’s argument, then tried to dispute it. Sometimes that tactic works, but it only works when the rhetorical hyperbole has not been pointed out. In this case, you are busted.

I am quite willing to debate an issue based on the merits of the argument. I refuse to engage in debate with a person who uses personal attacks and logical fallacies in a vain attempt to prove a point.

[jwirr]

170. Read War Against the Weak by Edwin Black. You sound very much

like the people in his documentation. Gene pool?

[Runcible Spoon]

77. absolutely Bertha! thanks for posting this...

and :hug: to you for your strength!

[Hail Lama]

79. What would Jesus Do?

Those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...

[paulk]

85. to murder someone as a penalty for murder is wrong

what message does that send?

I've never understood the logic behind the death penalty, other than it gives the state the "right" to kill it's own subjects.

To want to expand the state's "right" to murder is incomprehensible to me, and "disconcerting" barely covers how I feel about Obama's reaction to the Supreme Court ruling.

[noonwitch]

88. I agree with you

I have a lot of reasons beyond just the morality of the death penalty overall.

I fear that if the death penalty is on the table, victims of abuse at the hands of family members will be less likely to seek justice. The family ties, as sick as they may be, are still hard to break, especially if the perp's life is on the line.

I fear that if the justification for executing pedophiles is that "they ruin a victim's life", that would strongly imply to those who survive that their lives are ruined. They get enough mixed messages, they don't need any more.

[BigD_95]

89. In a black & White case Im all for the Death death penalty

But they do it all wrong.

It should be held outside in front of anyone who wants to witness and put on PPV to regroup some money for the legal system to hire police.

And they need to do something that looks a lot worse. Like a hanging. Let these bastards running around see what its like to die slowly in pain. Maybe they will think twice.

Again only if it is proven without any questions. Like if the person admits in a filmed interview or maybe caught on tape.

[Iris]

92. that is truly sickening. n/t

[LanternWaste]

95. I imagine some people give much more weight to a personal blood-lust...

Well, I imagine some people give much more weight to a personal blood-lust than they do for rule of law.

For my part, I'm glad that laws and courts have replaced the Roman arena and the millennium old vendetta system you appear to be advocating.






(BTW... an admission is not proof of guilt, film can be edited, etc.)

[bertha katzenengel]

106. A confession isn't always proof of guilt.

What you advocate isn't justice. It's barbarism.

[justaregularperson]

192. Exactly

"What you advocate isn't justice. It's barbarism."

[cbayer]

90. Thanks so much for your post.

I was appalled last night at the number and ferocity of people who were unhappy with the Supreme Court decision. You post has brought out the side of the Democratic party that I am more familiar with.

[undeterred]

91. I agree with you.

And I am glad you can see it dispassionately. :hug:

[EstimatedProphet]

93. Hear hear!

If you're going to be against capital punishment, then you should be against capital punishment, not for it for cases where you don't like what someone did.

[redqueen]

96. Hear hear, Bertha!

Time to stop demagoguing this issue. We shouldn't be using the death penalty AT ALL.

[windoe]

99. Death Penalty is a slippery slope

made of the falsely accused. Especially at a time like this in history, when dangerous people are running the country, I would highly suspect the news being saturated with stories of individual violence, both to deflect anger away from the real criminals, and as an excuse for more force on the populace as a whole. Because we all know who would fall victim to these laws, the 'undesriables' --of the wrong race, sexual orientation and class.

[paulstylos]

114. however

"Capital punishment is wrong. I don't care what the crime is. As much as I feel the need for retribution when I hear of some horrifying, evil crime, I feel more strongly that the death penalty is barbaric, and that this country should not see it as just punishment."

the issue is not whether (the scotus issue) capital punishment is wrong, or how anybody feels about retribution.

it's about constitution and the law.

i actually agree with obama. regardless of how i FEEL about the DP, it's constitutional, and i agree with obama (see: audacity of hope) that it is constitutionally justified in cases of child rape

whether it is good POLICY is an ENTIRELY different question.

[Jackpine Radical]

115. Thank you, Bertha.

I oppose the death penalty in all cases.

[Maat]

116. I so agree with you, Bertha.

And, you have so much credibility.

The death penalty is always wrong.

I want to teach my child that vengeance is not the way to healing.

Positive, healing energy headed your way.

Thanks for the post.

[Zuiderelle]

118. I love you, Bertha!

And I am in furious agreement with you on this matter.

:hug: :loveya:

[bertha katzenengel]

204. And I love you, PF.

Thank you. :loveya:

By the way - check your PM.

[BigD_95]

120. there are always cases where someone

kills their kids and wife ( for example) and the person is found red handed. There is no question if this person did it. Thats the cases Im talking about.


Maybe where they find the child killed in the closet or pieces of a person their house. A lot of these people plead insanity. Remember the lady that drove her kids into a lake or that one that drown her kids in a tub where the one child escaped.

You kill those people in the most painful way you can. Then you kick them once their dead. After their burial you piss on their graves!

[bertha katzenengel]

124. "you kill, you kick, you piss" -- WTF?

Actually, no. I do not. If you want to -- I don't think I've ever said this to a person -- you are wrong.

[BigD_95]

121. N/A

double post somehow

[libodem]

123. Thanks for sharing something so difficult to talk about

I agree with you. I'm not a believer in the death penalty in general and while rape is horrible, especially of a child, it's not murder.

[Lyric]

127. You're absolutely right, Bertha.

It's not a question of how "sick" a person is, or how "horrible" a crime is. Those are emotional, subjective issues that have no bearing on the real question at hand. Should the government have the power to kill? NO. NO. NO.

War and execution are the same beast, when you get down to the basic gist of them. Both are government-approved and initiated means of murdering people, in order to (ostensibly) "protect" the American people and their interests. I don't trust the government's word when they say that war is "justice"--why the hell would I trust the government's word that an execution is "justice"?

Until we are able to mete out perfect, unstained justice, we have NO RIGHT to kill as punishment. If someone is wrongly convicted and put in jail, it's possible to let that person back out again and make at least partial amends to them. If someone is executed wrongly...then WE ALL are murderers. Everyone who supports the system that killed an innocent person. We become precisely what we strive to defeat.

It's wrong, and it needs to stop. It disgusts me that no political leader is willing to be courageous enough to take this issue to the people and explain to them how horrible it truly is. It breaks my heart that so many of my fellow Dems believe that the government can and should be trusted with the right to kill.

[LynneSin]

128. Death Penalty never bothered me until I heard what Matthew Shepard's father said....

at the court case against the man who brutally assaulted his son (Matthew) and left him to die tied to a cold fence post somewhere outside of Laramie Wyoming.

If Mr. Shepard could find it in his heart to look at his son's killer and ask to spare him of the death penalty then perhaps I need to rethink the concept of death penalty itself.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

[Iris]

132. Not to mention that some of the people who would love to see some killers get the death penalty,

are the same kind of people that would have harshly judged Matthew Shepard when he was alive. Who wants to be part of that hate-and-anger crowd?

[LynneSin]

159. Don't sign me up for that team

I hate what these rapists do but I still can't justify using the death penalty on them.

[Cleita]

129. I agree with you and I commend you for thinking this through even though

what happened to you must have caused you a lot of pain. I applaud you for not wanting to get even. That doesn't mean that I don't think these perverts shouldn't be locked away, if not in prison, in a state hospital that keeps them from interacting with children. Protecting the innocent children from harm should supersede any rights these people claim for themselves.

[defendandprotect]

130. This is one the SC got right, IMO -- and courageous of you --

to stand against the death penalty ---

Hopefully one day we'll have a Supreme Court again which will bar capital punishment.



"Don't use our grief to create war" . . . first thing the 9/11 families said ---

and I so admired their courage while everyone else was rooting for violence/war.

[awoke_in_2003]

133. I am against the death penalty

but the child factor pushes me real close. If someone did that to my son, though, I would still be against state sanctioned death. I would probably just do it myself.

[bertha katzenengel]

203. Any child abuse pushes me damned close, too.

It's a bitch to try to let my cooler head prevail.

[duhneece]

134. Your strength, your beauty moves me to tears.

You are an incredibly beautiful person and deserve all the good this world can offer. Thank you.

[PurpleStateVoter]

136. death penalty should exist but not expanded

I think there are some cases where a crime is so brutal and the murderer is so depraved that no punishment could never make amends for it so it requires the most extreme punishment that can be given which is loss of life. Life without parole isn't really punishment because as someone said above that someone this depraved would really care less. I'm not a fan of the concept of executing every murderer or expanding it for non-murderers.

[enigmatic]

137. Great post, Bertha

:hug:

[MrScorpio]

138. I agree totally

Well said

[BigD_95]

140. I used to be against the Death penalty

Then I got older & had kids.

Im probably still against the Death penalty 95% of the time. Just because you never want to put someone to death that is innocent. So if there is ever a question you have to side against the Death penalty. I also wouldnt agree with the Death penalty in the case that the thread was started about.

[rainlillie]

144. Thanks for your post..

I totally disagree with the Courts decision. I'm pro-choice and in favor of the death penalty, especially in cases involving the rape and murder of children. I was also raped as a child, and the guy went on to rape three other people. His last crime, he held the woman and her daughter over a three day period and repeatedly raped them both. I see no good reason why this guy should continue to breath air. I was seven the womans daughter was four. Tell me again why his life should be spared?

[bertha katzenengel]

147. I can't.

You already know what I think from my OP. I can't presume to preach it to you. Any more than I can demand that you forgive that evil man. I'm sorry if my thread led you to a bad time today.

[rainlillie]

150. My predator

Started out raping his sisters. His records were sealed and that's how he was able to continue victimizing people. He's up for parole next year. Some people think it's a one time thing and with a little therapy you'll get over it. It never fully goes away and if you have your own children , it makes you think about their safety and whom you can trust, more than the average person.
I have no doubt in my mind if this guy is released, he'll do it again.

[bertha katzenengel]

202. "Some people think it's a one time thing and with a little therapy you'll get over it."

I'd like to talk to such a person. I've never encountered anyone who believes this.

"I have no doubt in my mind if this guy is released, he'll do it again." Of course he'll do it again.

Will you be at the parole hearing?

[McCamy Taylor]

148. Sanctioned murder tells people that revenge killing is ok too, which increases murder because

they think "He just did x, y and z to me. I'll take the law into my own hands and see that justice is done." We train people in this country to think for themselves and take care of themselves and not expect the government to do things for them. The inevitable result is that people go out and shoot their wife's lover, shoot the person who stole their TV, shoot the person who kicked their dog.

I suspect that if we had no death penalty and if killing was never acceptable, people might consider lesser options when they are deciding on their penalties for their own summary justice. Ending war would help, too. And hunting.

[rainlillie]

153. All that's fine and good

But I'm okay with child molesters getting the death penalty. It's easy to sit on the sidelines and say this wrong, you'll never know how you'd react if it were you or your small child. Until you are sitting there looking in the eyes of a child who has been victimized in the worse way unimaginable...You just don't know. Abortion and the death penalty are private matters. I can't tell you you're wrong for your beliefs and you can't tell me I'm wrong for mine.

[judy]

149. Thank you Bertha!

Thank you so much for saying this...
Revenge seems to be idolized everywhere, including in Obama's mind, and on the radio waves to a sickening extent. It's almost like they are saying "real men want revenge".
I believe the opposite, I think that you are the role model for "real men" a.k.a real human beings who are strong in spite of whatever they have gone through in the past, and who don't believe that 2 wrongs will make it right.

I also happen to think the Supreme Court is wrong, but it is because they didn't outlaw the death penalty outright.

[rainlillie]

154. It's not revenge it's justice!

.

[BigD_95]

155. How is it Revenge?

Its Revenge if someone does something to me and I act out that person for Revenge.

Its not Revenge if the justice system does it. Its called Justice!

and its not to 2 wrongs will make it right.

its one wrong and the consequence is death.

What is the purpose of letting these animals live in a cage for the rest of their lives? They gave up their right to live in a civilized society when they acted out in a uncivilized way.

[rainlillie]

156. I agree 100 percent!

.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

158. No. You don't have to be the victim to exact revenge.

And "being the State" or not is irrelevant to that consideration.

[Fox Mulder]

161. Death is an easy way out.

They deserve to live in a cage for the rest of their lives.

[readmoreoften]

151. Same here and agreed. /nt

[Fox Mulder]

160. State sanctioned murder is wrong.

And I'm sorry you had to go through that, bertha. :hug:

[gaspee]

164. I am against the deathe penalty in all cases

But I *do* think a good punishment for rapists (of anyone, child or not,) is physical castration.

And I think it is a good punishment, not particularly a deterrent.

They're still sick fucks who want the power to control other people. But it makes a nice punishment.

[YankeyMCC]

166. You are a brave and wise person on this

even I, someone who is very anti-death penalty felt a bit of doubt on this because it is just a heinous crime against members of our society that are so vulnerable, more than just members the very future of our society - but you are so correct.

thank you for speaking out.

[ooglymoogly]

167. You are of course right on this, Obama is beginning to alarm me on

this and his support of the FISA bill. Now that he has us in the bag, so to speak, what will be the next shoe to fall?

[jwirr]

168. I was very surprised to hear my daughter, who was also raped as

a child, say the same thing. She wants them punished and off the streets but recognizes that death is permanent. I as her parent am always angry when I hear stories about this but I want prison sentences that reflect the seriousness of the crime. Prison is not a nice place for sex offenders.

[durrrty libby]

171. Progressives promoting the Death Penalty, just like China, Iran,

Pakistan and Saudi Arabia................not cool

[rainlillie]

196. This isn'nt about group think...

It's about people who have different perspectives on an issue.

[durrrty libby]

208. Yeahh riiight. You keep telling yourself that

It's actually about us being as barbaric as the countries we rail against

[slay]

172. You are so right

It is not the government's place, nor mine, to decide whether someone lives or dies. I can not ever support "capital punishment", and it's good to see like minded liberals here feeling the same. Thanks for your post.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

173. Thank you so much for saying that. Another thing the bloodthirsty mob fail to consider:

The majority of child rape victims are attacked by a family member or other trusted adult. Just imagine what an already traumatized child will go through realizing that Daddy or Uncle Jeff or Coach Miller might be executed if she turns him in to the authorities? Many abusers already use guilt about them going to jail to get their victims to be silent.

[Q3JR4]

174. Something else to consider...

When the state, acting as an instrument of we the people, kills someone for committing a heinous act they're doing it in OUR name. From that standpoint we the people may as well be the ones pulling the lever that activates the flow of electricity to the electric chair.

Q3JR4.

[rateyes]

175. I'm with you. nt

[Danger Mouse]

179. I have mixed feelings about the death penalty. I don't support it in principle...

but I'm not sure how I'd feel if someone close to me were raped or my little sister or one of my nephews/nieces were molested.
I just don't know.

[rainlillie]

195. Thanks for your honesty..

People don't know, and hopefully they'll never be in a position to know. I posted about this on my blog and the stories from some of the victims and their family members are quite compelling. I haven't read all the post here, but the concern seems to be sparing the life of the offender, what about the victims? I consider myself liberal on most issues, but I break with the majority on this one. Until someone who has served time in prison can prove to me that every day of the offenders life is pure hell, I say save the state some money and put them to death.

[bertha katzenengel]

201. Perhaps I should have added this: I have in fact wished my rapist dead.

All this was more than 35 years ago. Once I realized it was okay to be angry, I spent many years fantasizing about how I would kill him.

I've changed a great deal since then. I don't know what has happened to him, but I hope he is either dead* or locked up forever.

* If you think this is a contradiction, think a little more.

[Klukie]

180. It is murder for circumstance........

The death penalty should be abolished.

[lightningandsnow]

181. Proud to be rec number 100.

[FourScore]

182. Thank you. I agree. n/t

[nankerphelge]

183. Obama needs to wise up

[AutumnMist]

184. I know I will be in the minority in this opinion here on DU

I am not an angry woman by nature, nor do I think that all should be punished by death. I will say however I was raped, intimidated, and controlled by a close family member (from six to about 11/12 years of age) by my grandfather. A man that I loved..like only a child could. It was truly unconditional and twisted. I learned to numb myself and just emotionally cut anything off that hurt me. I would sit in my bedroom and pray that I would start my period so I would no longer be a child and he would quit hurting me. I didn't know it had effected me as deeply as it did at the time honestly. I have walked many paths to get back to where I am right now. I did it on my own and so many told me to turn the other cheek.

I lost my innocence because of this man and had years of shame and pain because of it. I grew into an adult completely unsure of how or where I should be a woman. I slept my way through my mid teens and very early adulthood. Men were a mystery and my self worth was something that could have been a LIFELONG issue. I think that a penalty being paid by the legacy that he gave me at a time when I did not have a choice to get out of it or even know I could...should be punished. Severely.

We are not talking about consensual sex or even a time in a child's life that sex should be an issue. He as an adult could have changed his behavior but chose to destroy anything I had left as an innocent. I have no pity and no shame in saying I hope they all meet the strongest legal fate they can. If it could prevent one more man or woman from taking the last full hope and full realization of a child becoming what they should/could be without years of pain and struggle to get back to square one. I am for it. I really am. And for the record I have never hurt a child. Ever. I made that choice as a child.

The abuser as a victim card just doesn't and never will play the right way with me. I know it sounds harsh. Its just my honest truth. Its not a flame fest and I don't want to get into one. I was also very sad to see that the Supreme Court backed down on a very huge issue with some of our smallest citizens. For shame.

[gaspee]

185. I have very strong feelings about rapists

I think they should be physically castrated. Not as a deterrent, but as a punishment.

However, I do not think the death penalty is ever appropriate.

How would it have affected you and the rest of your family if you, when you were a child, were called to testify against your grandfather and your testimony led to his receiving the death penalty?

It would actually been his own actions that led to his death, not your testimony, but would you have understood that?

It's a very complicated issue.

I don't think the state should ever be given the right to put its citizens to death.

[suzie]

194. Thank you for your statement

It seems a lot easier to talk about the life of the abuser when one hasn't been the victim. So, it's important to hear what the victim think--and not what we'd like them to think, but how really difficult it was.

[AutumnMist]

210. I just came online this afternoon

Thank you. Your words touched me. :hug:

[rainlillie]

197. Great post..

I agree. Last year a guy in my town raped a 12 month old baby. These people are beyond redemption. Obama is right on this issue and I'm so glad he isn't afraid to say what he feels. There's no law saying if you're liberal you have to think a certain way.

[GreenPartyVoter]

186. I hear you on all of that, Bertha. *hugs*

[wpelb]

187. Whether the DP is morally wrong or not is not the issue

The question is whether the Constitution specifically forbids its use in this case. The Eighth Amendment forbids "cruel and unusual punishments," but doesn't specify or define what "cruel and unusual punishments" are. It doesn't even address the semantic argument of whether a type of punishment that is cruel but not unusual is permitted. The Supreme Court has held that the death penalty is not "cruel and unusual" punishment (otherwise nobody would be getting executed).

The Fourteenth Amendment adds more fuel to the fire. It keeps states from abridging "the privileges or immunities of citizens" (doesn't say anything about non-citizens, by the way). It also forbids a state to "deprive any person of life . . . without due process of law," which presumably means that a state could take someone's life if it followed due process.

Whether the death penalty is a proper means of punishment of rapists, kidnappers, murderers, or anyone else is not addressed by the Constitution. That should be addressed and debated in Congress and the respective state legislatures. That will mean that different jurisdictions will have different punishments for the same crimes, but that is the price we pay for living in a federal state.

[Name removed]

188. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bertha katzenengel]

199. This post is out of place in this thread.

And that's to put it mildly.

[lebkuchen]

189. Europe "dittos" your views.

Actually, most of the world does. If Gabon, South Korea and Uzbekistan can join that chorus, why does the U.S. have so much difficulty changing its attitude, and laws, toward this barbaric practice?

[justaregularperson]

193. Man, our culture is de-evolving in leaps and bounds

This entire discussion should be about what **works** best. We are so obsessed with fear, anger, loathing we cannot see straight enough to look toward the future, much less through our red eyes.

The emotional framework is being built (yes, this is all being stoked courtesy of our barbarian "Republican" friends) at the expense of true inspection and scientific method. We should be instead concentrating first on prevention. But because of our more barbaric and powerful neighbors who want to turn everything into "good and evil" and make it equal "life and death" (think about the basis of such philosophy, it comes from the religious righter's belief systems), we are completly off course for really getting to the root of things and actually reducing things like murder and rape.

Sorry, but all the self rightious anger is more self serving than helpful to the victims of rape and murder. We are contributing to their increase and as a result are partly to blame! I swear, I am convinced we could reduce our incidence of child rape significantly if we simply spent as much energy countering the causes and educating the masses as we do on fear and loathing. Statistically the evidence is these are more learned behavior than genetics.

I am preparing to get the hell out from amongst this nuts of a citizenry and move to another country. I still hope for change, but I am working toward the move. The fact that even on a place like DU that is supposedly filled with progressives so many folks want to hold onto apeshit ideas that don't work is just frightening, and is making many of us lose hope that we will trend back to health in time... I just don't know..

[bertha katzenengel]

200. Self-serving? No. Not helpful? I agree that my post is not helpful, because

there is nothing I can do to help victims.

Others can and do help, and I can't even help them. All I can do is support them.

The only anger I posted about is toward SCOTUS. But I am angry - horrified - furious at the perpetrators. That does not mean I feel they should be killed for their crimes.

There's no self-righteousness or self-serving crap here. In this debate I'm no one (except for staying in touch with my Congress critters on relevant legislation, both pro-victim and anti-death).

[justaregularperson]

205. My bad for not explaining better...

I wasn't posting about your post. I just get frustrated at the regular calls to commit violence as a reaction by some even on DU boards instead of going after rational analysis to really do what would be best for all, find real solutions to prevent rape and recidivism (for when we do decide to release them). We should be going after the root causes but our society instead still wants to continue to use the same innefective methods that actually further agitate the problem instead of fix it so the next generation actually starts to see less of these terrible crimes.

Our culture seems to have terrible problems dealing with societal issues in constructive ways.

No, I apologize. I really appreaciated your post.

[bertha katzenengel]

206. Understood, and thanks.

:)

[placton]

198. We all need to realize

we will be holding our noses to vote Obama by November. I will vote for him, support him and work hard. But I am afraid that he will be even more conservative than Clinton was during his presidency. That said, Barack (like Bill) is universes better than McCodger.

[Kajsa]

209. Thank you, Bertha!

I'm so sorry you had to live through this trauma of rape.
:(

You are one fantastic person, Bertha.
You have a big heart and your compassion and kindness
shows in everything you do.

I'm bookmarking this thread, as an example to all of us.

Yes, you are definitely headed for a real nice spot in heaven.
:)

:hug:

[QueenOfCalifornia]

211. applause!

I agree.