I was raped when I was eight years old...

[varkam]

by a sixteen year old kid whose father probably did the same thing to him. It's not something that I normally toss about, but I was inspired by this recent thread as well as the 5-4 SCOTUS decision ruling that execution for child rape is unconstitutional. Primarily, though, I figured that if others could be brave enough to put it on the table, then I should too.

Of course, I am a male, and so it makes the emotional consequences a little bit different for me than if I were a woman (at least, near as I can tell). In some ways I think that it is easier to deal with if you are a man who has been raped as opposed to a woman who has been raped, and in some ways I think that it is harder.

As you can probably infer from the first sentence of this post, I have let go of a lot of my hate and anger. I wouldn't always think of him as the "sixteen year old kid whose father probably did the same thing to him". Words that have been bandied about here are familiar to me; monster, animal, sub-human, et cetera. Eventually, though, I realized that my hate, my anger, and my resentment did not do him any injury. In a moment of profound insight (or at least that's what I would call it - gives you an idea of how low my bar is set) I wrote a couple of months ago that hatred does not injure it's subject, only the owner. If you ask me, that is actually one of the worst consequences of having been raped - the hatred that it inspired in me.

Again, it took me a while to get there. I'm not saying that I'm somehow better than victims who are angry, either. I don't begrudge them their feelings, as I had them for a long time. People deal with this sort of thing in different ways. For all I know, that anger can be healthy for some people.

Switching gears, I find myself caught in the middle. While you can say that I have an affinity for rape victims because I was one, you can also say that I have an affinity for perverts and sex addicts, because I'm one of those as well. I will say at the outset that I have never harmed anyone like that. I have never taken what was done to me and passed that on to others, though I will also say that had their not been any sort of intervention in my life, who knows what another ten or twenty years would of brought? It terrifies me to think about that possibility. For the record, I do not blame that sixteen year old kid for my problems. I can see how that act contributed to a lot of where I am right now, but the onus was always mine to be honest with myself and recognize when I needed some help. I failed in that, but thankfully due to the courage and the honesty of a woman that I love, I was able to get that help.

I say all that to say this: in my time in recovery for my various addictions and problems, I've met a couple people who many here would consider to be "monsters". People I would of, at one time, considered to be monsters. In some respect, I wish I could say that they are monsters, as that would make things a lot simpler. As another poster put it, sometimes we use these people to keep hard lines between good and evil. We like to think that these are "monsters" that do these sorts of things because we don't like to think that anyone is capable of committing these kinds of atrocious acts, not the least of whom ourselves. To that end, I have noticed that attempts in the press to try to humanize these "monsters" is usually met with rampant hostility. Hopefully I'm not going to get flamed too badly.

I met a man that I'm going to call Chuck. One night, several years ago, Chuck fondled his daughter while she was sleeping. Doing this woke her up, and Chuck became scared and horrified with himself. He then went to get his shotgun, gave it to his wife and told her what he did, and on his knees and through the tears, begged her to shoot him. She didn't of course. Instead, Chuck was arrested and sent to prison for a couple of years. Currently, Chuck and his daughter have reconciled and actually have a good relationship (I was surprised, too). He has found work as a mechanic, struggles mightily with depression, and is beginning a dating relationship with another woman.

I met a man that I'll call Daniel. Daniel was in a messy relationship with a woman who had a daughter. Apparently, at the behest of the mother, the daughter went to the police to say that Daniel had abused her. Daniel was consequently arrested and took a plea agreement that resulted in probation. Kind of surprising, until you learn that there was no physical evidence and that he had passed a polygraph. He adamantly denies doing anything at all to this girl. To hear him say it, the DA strong-armed him into taking a plea. They charged him with more than they could possibly proved, and then basically asked if he wanted to take his chances in front a jury with ninety some-odd years riding on the line. Daniel was scared, and accepted the agreement. As a result of the agreement, he was prevented from having contact with his own children. I don't think it is much of a understatement to say that not being able to see, talk to, or write his children for years killed his soul.

I met a man that I'll call Robert. Robert used to be a big-time drug addict. He would have raucous parties at his house, with his wife and children present. One night, after shooting heroin and cocaine into his arm, he molested his children. The exact details aren't too clear, as he says that his memory is pretty blurred of exactly what happened, but he nonetheless admits that he did it. Right now, he is working on dealing with his drug addiction, and hoping to one day be reunited with his kids.

Those are just a couple of the "monsters" that I have met. In my time in recovery, I have met many more. I have met people who have raped women, people who have solicited prostitutes, people who have swapped child pornography online, people who have exposed themselves to unwitting people on the street...all sorts of types. All sorts of "monsters". I'm sure a few of you are wondering why it is that I found myself in this place. Well, I had a big problem with affairs and pornography. I'm a sex addict, of course I'm just one type of sex addict. There's more than one road to Rome, as they say.

Monstrous deeds, not monstrous people. I think that is a pretty succinct way of putting how I feel about it. I think that most of us probably have some sort of thing that we have done in the past that, if a spotlight were shone on it, people probably wouldn't think too highly of us. I know I have a least a few.

Suffice it to say, that I have not met any monsters. I've met people. I've met people with problems, people with a head full of junk, people who are hobbled by addictions and insecurities, people who have done terrible things. They don't look much different than you or I, though. They look like your mailman, or your pastor, or your kid's teacher, or your hairdresser. As scary as the deeds that they have committed are, I think that the far scarier thing is the understanding that monsters do not do these sorts of things - people do.

As I mentioned before, all of this is not to condone what they have done. The Christian adage of "Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner" comes to mind. I guess maybe I'm in a unique position because I can see it from both sides of the coin because of my experiences. Some of you will want to disagree with me, and that's fine. Some of you will want to hold on to your hate and your anger, and that's fine too - I'm not judging.

I'm just adding my .02.

[PeaceNikki]

1. Wow.

Perspective.

[dsc]

2. amazing post I am proud to recommend it.

[roguevalley]

16. awesome post, awesome journey. I hug you tight. Thank you for

the grace of your post.

[liberalmike27]

94. Good Post

You see, by your post, and the reaction here, that liberals and Democrats tend to view these things much differently.

The media likes to sum up a whole life by a single act, or quality of a person. They want it to be tidy, good and bad, the act is the person, a person is defined by this one thing alone. Much of the various mediums have purposed their coverage to accomplish getting as many people to look at it this way as possible. It's tidy, easy.

But your post exemplifies how it isn't so simple, that perpetrator of evil is sometimes a victim too, a victim that leads to the act in question.

They are also, one by one, taking each crime and trying to make it life-or-death, kill the perpetrator types of death penalty crimes. We've got car-jacking, murder of course, and kidnapping, in many states where they already want to kill the perp. Now they wanted to add this. I'm personally against the death penalty completely, but that's another argument.

We could get into mandatory sentences, where someone can get 20 years for selling drugs, and another person who steals your car, or burglarizes your home, will get five, and be out in less than two, but that's another story.

Step by step we become the worst example of what we hate, more like Saudi Arabia, Iran, or N. Korea. Sadly, with the media conditioning we have on the conservative media, all too many seem to embrace killing the killer, the rapist, the kidnapper, or the child-molester. And how about a nickle for prevention, to prevent the pound of cure and damage down the line?

[ronnykmarshall]

3. You are a fantastic person.

[villager]

4. brave post -- thanks for opening up to the board this way...

n/t

[dogday]

5. I am proud to send this to the greatest page, and I thank

you for sharing something so private... Best wishes to you.... :hug:

[enigmatic]

6. fantastic post

Thank you for this.

[enigmatic]

7. And K&R

[JerseygirlCT]

8. Varkam, I'm sorry for all that you've gone through

and I'm thankful for your gift of empathy.

As much as I'd want to kill anyone who hurt my loved ones, as you point out - that rage would only harm me, wouldn't help them any, either.

The trick with pedophiles is that it's a deeply entrenched disorder. The recidivism rate is really, really high. So how to handle people who are not safe in society?

But I'm quite sure that the way to handle them is NOT by killing them. I admire your ability to empathize, and your refusal to treat people - even, or perhaps especially, deeply disturbed people, as objects, as less than human beings.

[evilkumquat]

31. High Recidivism?

I have heard just the opposite: that sex offender registry laws do more harm than good because it punishes people who, in general, are less likely to repeat than those who were not caught, and punishes them for years and year after the initial crime, forcing them into menial positions until they decide, "What the hell do I have to lose? I may as well become a repeat offender since I will never have a chance for a normal life anyway."

If anyone has any links to studies on actual recidivism rates I would love to see them.

[JerseygirlCT]

33. Well, certainly there is a big difference between "sex offender"

and "pedophile". Or rather, pedophiles comprise a small portion of sex offenders.

I don't have a site for you; I'm going by the information I was given at a talk by a person who worked with pedophiles who had been imprisoned. Her figures were in the high 90s for possibility of these people doing it again.

I agree that in many cases, the one size fits all approach in a legal sense does not work.

[justaregularperson]

81. I have read the same data.. recidivism is not as high as it is presented

I do not want to search for it again as the whole subject is too depressing and I have already educated myself. But it is out there is people just want to spend some honest time on Google.

The who rage thing is built on false ascertions and statistics. It is not the strange skulking in the neighborhood, it is usually a parent or other family member. And most do not do it again after they are released.

[justaregularperson]

82. Looks like country affects recidivism stats significantly

Well, I decided to look again.

I found studies based on US rates, Canada and Australia. Canada and Australia are fairly low. The US appears to be higher, though most appear to never commit the crime again.

Why do these other countries appear to have lower rates? Maybe because they focus more on rehabilitation? Not sure.

Still, all of these stats are lower than what is bantered about by far. And there are a lot of studies that show that treatment *does* lower rates.


Canada
http://www.johnhoward.ab.ca/PUB/C24.htm

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/evidence-on-pedophiles-doesnt-support-concerns-20080605-2m96.html?page=-1

[varkam]

84. A good place for such stats is CSOM.

www.csom.org - it's run by the DoJ.

[Jackpine Radical]

34. The recidivism rate for child molestation is NOT "really, really high."

In fact, within-family molestation is among the offense categories with the LOWEST rates of recidivism. Here is a handy summary of the relevant research.

http://www.johnhoward.ab.ca/PUB/C24.htm

Sex offenders are of grave concern to the public due to the nature of sexual offending. The public tends to believe that the recidivism rates of sexual offenders, particularly pedophiles, are quite high. This information sheet is intended to provide a quick overview of the research on this topic.

Recidivism is defined as being charged with the commission of a new offence. In the case of sex offenders, the public is most concerned with sexual recidivism - the commission of a new sexual offence. Recidivism rates vary by the time frame being looked at and by the type of sexual offending.

Recidivism Rates

One research project looked at 61 previous studies of sexual recidivism using a 4-5 year follow up period. This research on sex offenders found that 13.4% recidivated with a sexual offence, 12.2% recidivated with a non-sexual, violent offence and 36.6% recidivated with any other offence.
...
In general, rapists reoffend more often than child molesters.

Among child molesters, those with male victims have been found to have the highest recidivism rates, followed by those with unrelated female victims.

Incest offenders show the lowest recidivism rates of all sexual offenders.

The misinformation you are spreading here is not helpful to the rational consideration of our laws related to sex offending.

[aikoaiko]

66. That same website also cites studies showing 42%, 61%, and 77%

Depending on the population.

Aren't most of the studies that show recidivism rates in the teen percentages based on the molester getting caught again and adjudicated?

[varkam]

67. Not necessarily adjudicated...

they are also based on re-arrest rates. I note elsewhere that it is likely that the recidivism is higher than is reported, but it is also worth mentioning that the vast majority of sex crimes that are cleared each year are committed by people with no previous offenses.

[Jackpine Radical]

71. That is 15 to 30-year data, and in some cases for all arrests,

not just sex crimes.

Here's some more data, from a DOJ report that follows up on 2/3 of all sex offenders released from state prisons in 1994. It is 3-year data:

This report gives recidivism rates for
the 9,691 combined total. It also
separates the 9,691 into four overlapping
categories and gives recidivism
rates for each category:
w 3,115 released rapists
w 6,576 released sexual assaulters
w 4,295 released child molesters
w 443 released statutory rapists.
The 9,691 sex offenders were released
from State prisons in these 15 States:
Arizona, Maryland, North Carolina,
California, Michigan, Ohio, Delaware,
Minnesota, Oregon, Florida, New
Jersey, Texas, Illinois, New York,
and Virginia.
Highlights
The 15 States in the study released
272,111 prisoners altogether in 1994.
Among the 272,111 were 9,691 men
whose crime was a sex offense (3.6%
of releases).
On average the 9,691 sex offenders
served 3½ years of their 8-year
sentence (45% of the prison sentence)
before being released in 1994.
Rearrest for a new sex crime
Compared to non-sex offenders
released from State prisons, released
sex offenders were 4 times more likely
to be rearrested for a sex crime.
Within the first 3 years following their
release from prison in 1994, 5.3% (517
of the 9,691) of released sex offenders
were rearrested for a sex crime. The
rate for the 262,420 released non-sex
offenders was lower, 1.3% (3,328 of
262,420).
The first 12 months following their
release from a State prison was the
period when 40% of sex crimes were
allegedly committed by the released
sex offenders.
Recidivism studies typically find that,
the older the prisoner when released,
the lower the rate of recidivism.
Results reported here on released sex
offenders did not follow the familiar
pattern. While the lowest rate of
rearrest for a sex crime (3.3%) did
belong to the oldest sex offenders
(those age 45 or older), other comparisons
between older and younger
prisoners did not consistently show
older prisoners’ having the lower
rearrest rate.
The study compared recidivism rates
among prisoners who served different
lengths of time before being released
from prison in 1994. No clear association
was found between how long they
were in prison and their recidivism rate.
Before being released from prison in
1994, most of the sex offenders had
been arrested several times for different
types of crimes. The more prior
arrests they had, the greater their likelihood
of being rearrested for another
sex crime after leaving prison. Released
sex offenders with 1 prior arrest
(the arrest for the sex crime for which
they were imprisoned) had the lowest
rearrest rate for a sex crime, about 3%;
those with 2 or 3 prior arrests for some
type of crime, 4%; 4 to 6 prior arrests,
6%; 7 to 10 prior arrests, 7%; and 11
to 15 prior arrests, 8%.
Rearrest for a sex crime against a child
The 9,691 released sex offenders
included 4,295 men who were in prison
for child molesting.
Of the children these 4,295 men were
imprisoned for molesting, 60% were
age 13 or younger.
Half of the 4,295 child molesters were
20 or more years older than the child
they were imprisoned for molesting.
On average, the 4,295 child molesters
were released after serving about 3
years of their 7-year sentence (43% of
the prison sentence).
Compared to the 9,691 sex offenders
and to the 262,420 non-sex offenders,
released child molesters were more
likely to be rearrested for child molesting.
Within the first 3 years following
release from prison in 1994, 3.3% (141
of 4,295) of released child molesters
were rearrested for another sex crime
against a child. The rate for all 9,691
sex offenders (a category that includes
the 4,295 child molesters) was 2.2%
(209 of 9,691). The rate for all 262,420
non-sex offenders was less than half of
1% (1,042 of the 262,420).
Of the approximately 141 children
allegedly molested by the child molesters
after their release from prison in
1994, 79% were age 13 or younger.
Introduction and highlights
Recidivism of Sex Offenders Released from Prison in 1994 1
Released child molesters with more
than 1 prior arrest for child molesting
were more likely to be rearrested for
child molesting (7.3%) than released
child molesters with no more than 1
such prior arrest (2.4%).
Rearrest for any type of crime
Compared to non-sex offenders
released from State prison, sex offenders
had a lower overall rearrest rate.
When rearrests for any type of crime
(not just sex crimes) were counted, the
study found that 43% (4,163 of 9,691)
of the 9,691 released sex offenders
were rearrested. The overall rearrest
rate for the 262,420 released non-sex
offenders was higher, 68% (179,391)

Note that none of the sexual reoffending rates, even in the highest-risk groups exceeds a few percent in the three-year followup period. Child molesters are in the 2-4% range. 40% of reoffenses occur in the 1st year, with a tapering off after that.

[varkam]

35. No need to be sorry.

In the end, I think everything that has happened has been good. Sometimes, it's hard to tell when things happen if they are good or bad. Sometimes, you only figure that out years in the future.

The trick with pedophiles is that it's a deeply entrenched disorder. The recidivism rate is really, really high. So how to handle people who are not safe in society?

Well, this is a tricky thing, actually. Estimates of recidivism for sex offenders are actually fairly low, ranging from 11 to 18 percent over a five-year followup for a new sex crime (depending on what study that you look at). That's lower than recidivism for other types of criminals. In addition, that number drops even further if an offender successfully completes a treatment program.

Here's the rub, though: it is difficult to get a picture of the accuracy of these rates, as these kind of crimes are notoriously under-reported. The actual recidivism percentage is undoubtedly higher than advertised, but it is difficult to say just how high that is. One way to look at it is like this: I remember reading somewhere (not very compelling, I know) that close to 90% of new sex crimes are committed by people who have not committed a previous sex crime. In other words, the repeat sex offender, while popular in the media, appears to be a fairly rare occurrence.

There does appear to be a specific sub-group, though, that has a higher recidivism rate. Namely, adult male pedophiles who have had unrelated or victims who were unknown to them of the same sex. Even their reported recidivism, though, is only around 50%. That number, though, is probably higher in reality. A point of interest, though - that is still lower than recidivism for drug or property crimes.

The crux of it is, though, is that politicians and the media have a pretty bad track record of pointing out who is and who is not dangerous. My thinking is that psychologists and mental health professionals should be the one to make that determination via risk-assessment procedures, but the laws surrounding sex offenders don't seem to take much of that into account.

[JerseygirlCT]

38. Yes, I agree - your last paragraph especially.

I think we will have better results for all involved when this is treated, not just prosecuted.

And if the information I was given is incorrect, then I apologize.

[varkam]

42. Again, no need to apologize.

A great number of people have a lot of misconceptions about these sorts of things. I think that is because most people, like I mentioned in the OP, use the "monsters" to keep that hard line between good and evil strong. There's also the idea that Barry Glasner advances in his book on media that fear sells: big time. It's just that the reality of the situation is that it is not so cut and dry.

I think that the bottom line is that there aren't very many easy answers in this discussion. One thing that occurs to me is that, like it or not, a good number of these individuals that are currently incarcerated will be released at some point. I think it would be a better idea to give them some treatment and rehab, as opposed to a heaping helping of suffering, given that they are going to be coming back to our neighborhoods at some point.

[JerseygirlCT]

48. Yup. Completely agree.

Even from a purely practical point of view, no altruism involved, that's a better plan.

(Although I prefer to involve empathy and altruism as well!)

[Jackpine Radical]

75. You're basically right about your statistics

although there are grounds to quibble about some of the percentages. You are certainly right that peds with unrelated male victims are higher-risk for reoffending, but I know of no reliable data that would indicate anything like a 50% risk.

The business of predicting recidivism is a whole cottage industry in psychology--one that I've been involved in for about 15 years, and from both sides of the fence (prosecution & defense). Modern trends are to use actuarial tools based on objective data, analogous to insurance tables. The problem with the ones in use is that they are based on old data and odd samples, mostly Canadian, some of them with far higher base rates of reoffending than you ever see in modern research. Most of the recidivism risk research was done by a Canadian named Karl Hanson and his group. If you want to see the most widely-used tool, check out the STATIC-99. Google it. If you want to know more about actuarial prediction in general, see two books that present opposing perspectives: Dennis Doren's Evaluating Sex Offenders, and Terence Campbell's Assessing Sex Offenders: Problems and Pitfalls. I know both of them, have taken training with both of them,and belong to Campbell's theoretical camp: I just don't think we're all that good at predicting who is going to reoffend.

[varkam]

78. I've actually read Campbell's book.

Risk assessment was an interest of mine for a time, as I was a graduate student in clinical psychology and now I'm a law student. It seems to me that another major problem with risk assessment techniques that use such actuarial measures seem to rule-in dangerousness more often than rule it out. That's because a good number of the measures use static variables to account for risk (things like age at the time of the offense, age of the victim, sex of the victim, etcetera). Those things never change. So while an offender might go through counseling, get off drugs and alcohol, and obtain steady employment (all things that would reduce his risk for reoffense), many of those measures would still figure him as a risk as if none of those changes mattered.

In my admittedly lay knowledge, it seems that the biggest problem with risk assessment is that it tends to rule people in rather than out - and once you're in, you stay in. I think that we're also seeing that trend in states that have civil commitment programs, as not very many individuals are released from those programs.

[Jackpine Radical]

88. Yes, you're exactly on track with my thinking.

And I'm getting re-involved with testifying in the civil commitment cases in WI after a hiatus of a few years in which I did just straight criminal work. I was a Corrections field psychologist for a lot of years & by the time I left the fold, I seem to have established enough of a reputation for fairness that the local defense attorneys immediately started hiring me. My private forensic practice was up to speed in about 2 months. (I had a side private practice all the years I was with Corrections, but took no forensic cases in order to avoid conflicts of interest.)

[Dogtown]

9. You're a brave man

Thanks for sharing.

[Happyhippychick]

10. Thank you for bravely opening your life up to us. I have learned much and your post leaves me with

a greater respect and hope for mankind.

[renate]

11. I'm speechless

But I can't recommend and move on without thanking you for your incredible honesty and generosity of spirit. And I wish I could put into words how much I admire your courage, for not taking the obvious easy road of blaming the kid, or blaming what happened to you, for your problems; that would certainly have been understandable, but it wouldn't have made your life any better. All best wishes to you....

:hug:

[robinlynne]

12. I always admire people who are able to let go of anger. Gandhi, Martin Luther King,

were able to do it, and because of that ability, made such great changes in the world. You have a great sense of perspective. admirable.
Thanks.

[easttexaslefty]

13. That was so couragous...sharing your story

I believe being honest with our experiences is the way we can learn and grow

[proud patriot]

14. thanks

there's a kid I know , who experience is similar to yours .

Your words offer me wisdom from your experience I hope
to help this kid I know .

[emad]

15. A very powerful post.

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to bother.

[mudesi]

17. The only monsters are the pro death penalty people

Until people learn that capital punishment is nothing more than a tool for the conservative corporatists to use as an emotionally manipulative wedge issue, nothing will change.

[dsc]

26. that is no fairer than to say the people mentioned in the OP are monsters

Some people come to a pro death penalty position from places similar to that of the OP.

[Contrary1]

18. I have not been through what you have,

but; for a very different reason have felt anger and hate toward a person. I would sometimes lay awake at night fantasizing about what evil acts I could perpetrate upon this individual to somehow even the score. The rage consumed me.

It took me a very long time to realize that there was absolutely nothing that could ever make up for the loss I had suffered. It was only then that I was able to let it go.

Thank you for sharing your story.

[tishaLA]

19. thank you.

I don't know what to say, except that your humanity humbles me.

[Gormy Cuss]

20. You have a generous heart.

I have met a monster. He also was an addict but he was a monster long before the addiction took control of him. To his end of days he was a cold, calculated, manipulative,abusive waste of humanity. The damage wrought on his victims was and is enormous.

I can say in all honesty that while his death made me relieved for those who had suffered at his hands, it also made me sad that he had wasted his life. I'm not in favor of the death penalty because I want to believe that we all have value but I do believe that there are monsters among us. Some people are so damaged that there may never be a place for them outside of a locked room.

[nashville_brook]

21. damn -- what a courageous, honest, necessary post.

[FloridaJudy]

22. I'm speechless

Varkam, you are an amazing human being. Thank you.

[smokey nj]

23. Wonderful post, varkam.

[Breeze54]

24. Great post but I disagree on one point....

"but the onus was always mine to be honest with myself and recognize when I needed some help."

It takes a lot of years for many childhood rape victims to come to terms with it and even remember it.
You didn't do anything wrong in not seeking help sooner. It just took you time to realize it, as it has
taken many. You are not alone in that.

:hug:

[bean fidhleir]

25. Superb and moving post. Thank you for it. Gladly recommended.

[Zuiderelle]

27. Thank you for your honesty.

Those are some pretty powerful stories, and they go far to justify outlawing capital punishment. You've achieved a lot in your life to be able to look at your past experience with such rational empathy for your abuser.

:hug:

[readmoreoften]

28. I was three. I'm glad there was no such law. He would've been smart enough to set someone else up.

When my father was away in the hospital (for years) I was "cared for" by my neighbor who was also my "boyfriend." He was a charming sociopath about 45 years old. When I met him I was still in diapers. I only remember bits and pieces, but along with my medical history I have a pretty good idea what happened. Heck I thought I was in love with him! When I was five and started school he told me that I was getting fat and signaled that he wasn't interest--which, hell, was more damaging than anything else he did.

He never called me by my name. He always called me "Missy". I found out as an adult that a little 6 year old girl named Missy was murdered and thrown in the river where my "boyfriend" used to hang out. My "boyfriend" was part of the local political lynch mob that railroaded a 14 year old mentally retarded boy into being sentenced for the crime. The kid would've had to walk two miles in the city with a dead girl in black plastic bag over his shoulder with no one noticing.

The worst psychopaths are often very smart and capable of manipulating social systems. Thank god this law didn't pass. Who was the person most hurt? My money would be on the 14 year old retarded boy. The little girl is gone. I'm perfectly fine. Mr. psychopath is dead of natural causes. I'd guess he's still in state custody.

I hate talking about this stuff, because the reality is-- I'm fine, happy, strong, and well adjusted enough. I would never want to be pitied as a 'victim.' That's far more dehumanizing than anything a pedophile could've ever done.

If you really want to stop sociopathic child murderers: Bechtel, Halliburton, etc. What's the difference between slowly starving a child to death, stealing its water, ripping it to pieces with a bomb, and putting into a situation where he or she will be kidnapped and forced into prostitution?

[hfojvt]

29. Sounds like Daniel might be on death row

if he had chanced a trial and had a worse lawyer than the DA. Or if he had been bullied into a confession, like some of these people:

http://www.historylink.org/essays/output.cfm?file_id=7065

Thanks for sharing.

[Jackpine Radical]

54. There are probably more innocent people convicted

of sexually violent acts against children than any other serious crime. (Reposted here from another thread that died an early death)

I testified in a case where a retarded child with a speech defect identified an uncle as having molested him. The uncle was convicted and is on his way to prison. The molestation continues--the child's mother has reported continuing anal injuries and emotional disturbances in the victim even with the supposed perpetrator in jail and awaiting shipment to prison. The convicted person was known to the child as "PJ." The person whom I believe is the actual perpetrator is known as "DJ." I think that a bizarre sequence of events was set off when an interviewer misunderstood the child to say PJ when he was trying to say DJ. The wrong person was identified, the stepfather (a domineering cop) always hated PJ and browbeat the victim into continuing to misidentify his abuser.

This is only one case. I could tell you of others. Most of them involve estranged parents using their children as weapons against each other.

[Left coast liberal]

30. Thanks for your post. It took a lot of courage. Be well. NT

[tkmorris]

32. Well done sir

It is an honor to share oxygen with you.

[varkam]

36. Wow! I'm really blown away by people's response...

I really don't have the words to express how I feel.

I will say one thing though - there are a lot of people here saying that I am a great person...I'm not. I have made many, many mistakes in my admittedly young life. The stance that I take is that some of the things that I have done have been good, and some have been bad, but neither makes me a good or a bad person.

Again...thanks for the responses. I really am at a loss for words about how to respond

:toast:

[TechBear_Seattle]

40. So you've made many mistakes. Who hasn't?

You have learned from those mistakes. You have endured physical and emotional trauma and found peace. Being able to do these things is not common, and having the courage to stand forth like you have in your post is rare.

What is not to admire?

[TechBear_Seattle]

37. Thank you

:hug:

[Jackpine Radical]

39. Thank you for this post. It is an extremely valuable contribution

to the discussion. Everything you say rings exactly true.

As it happens, I'm a psychologist with a major clinical specialty in PTSD. I have treated many survivors of childhood sexual abuse. I sometimes think it's endemic in the population.

Another aspect of my practice is criminal forensic psychology, which I did full-time for many years and now do part-time. I have done psych evaluations of literally thousands of criminals in general, many hundreds of whom were and are sex offenders. In my experience, virtually all pedophiles (whether or not they act out on their pedophilia) have histories of having themselves been victims of sexual molestation. They are, for the most part, tormented and pathetic people, haunted by their own acts and by the events of their own victimhood.

Let me hasten to add, of course, that most people with histories of childhood sexual abuse do not go on to become perpetrators themselves. I don't know what factors determine whether or not someone will become a perpetrator after having been molested in childhood.

Let me also say that treatment of offenders does work. Statistically, current research shows that completion of sex offender treatment significantly reduces the likelihood of sexual reoffending. Most long-term studies are indicating that the likelihood of sexual reoffending in pedophiles is 10-15% within 6 years of release. Successful completion of treatment reduces that likelihood by about 50%.

[varkam]

46. Thank you for yours.

It also seems clear to me that childhood victimization can play a role in the victim becoming the perpetrator, as if they are trying to re-enact it or live it out or something. That is not to say, as point out, that being victimized as a child makes on a perpetrator of such crimes - but it does seem to me that there is a greater incidence of it...at least in the people whom I have met.

Thanks for your post :pals:

[Phillycat]

41. People who rape children deserve death.

I support the death penalty, and I support it in cases of child rape. Hopefully this decision will be overturned.

[varkam]

44. That's certainly your perogative to feel that way. eom

[emilyg]

55. I'm with you. My own reasons.

[info being]

100. What if they are framed?

What if it's he-said-she said. Death? You have that much faith in this completely fucked up system?

[Phillycat]

102. Yes.

[varkam]

106. delete - dupe

[varkam]

107. Correct me if I'm wrong, then, but...

it would seem that you don't really care if the person who is convicted and condemned to die actually committed the crime in question.

[Phillycat]

108. That of course isn't true.

I was just responding to the other poster's ridiculous, melodramatic reply to me with an answer that took the time it deserved - that is, none at all.

[varkam]

112. Then why bother responding at all? eom

[Phillycat]

113. Because they replied to my post, and it's a public message board.

:shrug:

[varkam]

114. I'm not saying that you don't have the right to respond...

but if you're going to respond without the intent of actually responding, then why take the trouble?

[Phillycat]

117. What are you, the post police?

I'll respond when I want.

[varkam]

118. Well, actually...

:D

I didn't mean to piss you off.

Take care :hi:

[sui generis]

104. people who use state resources

to punish a murder with a murder, or worse, to punish a rape with a murder aren't any more advanced than than the crimes they think they're punishing.

It's fine for a medieval society. I don't know if anyone noticed, it ain't middle ages anymore.

[Phillycat]

109. We disagree. I am still hopeful the decision will be overturned.

[Iris]

122. Even victims advocates are glad about this ruling.

Since most children who are raped are attacked by a family member or someone they know, we would be asking them give testimony that could result in the death of a family member. How is that a good thing?

Besides, I don't think the state has a right to take a life. It's just too much power.

[Phillycat]

127. How is that a good thing?

For a child's father not to be able to rape her or any other little kid ever again? I think that's a very good thing.

[varkam]

128. Victim's advocates were concerned on a couple points...

but primarily that it would drive the problem further underground. Incidents of child rape, especially considering that most cases occur within the family, are notoriously under-reported. The fear was that someone within the family who discovered the abuse might be more reluctant to disclose the abuse to authorities.

[varkam]

129. Too late to edit. Here's more information, if you are interested:

Amici Curiae: BRIEF OF THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF SOCIAL WORKERS; THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF SOCIAL WORKERS, LOUISIANA CHAPTER; THE NATIONAL ALLIANCE TO END SEXUAL VIOLENCE; THE LOUISIANA FOUNDATION AGAINST SEXUAL ASSAULT; THE TEXAS ASSOCIATION AGAINST SEXUAL ASSAULT; THE NEW JERSEY COALITION AGAINST SEXUAL ASSAULT; AND THE MINNESOTA COALITION AGAINST SEXUAL ASSAULT AS AMICI CURIAE IN SUPPORT OF PETITIONER

...

A. Executing child rapists will likely worsen the
problem of underreporting that already frustrates efforts
to combat sexual offenses against children. The
overwhelming majority of sexual abuse is committed
by victims’ family members or close family friends.
These relationships lead many victims—as well as
family members who witness or suspect the abuse—
to remain silent rather than to report the crime. For
example, victims and other family members may fear
the consequences of the abuser’s prosecution and incarceration.

Louisiana’s capital rape statute dramatically aggravates
this problem. By magnifying the possible effects
of a report of child rape, the Louisiana statute
will likely ensure that fewer victims are identified
and receive treatment—and that fewer abusers are
stopped from continuing to abuse their victims and
from victimizing even more children.
The increasing failure of the system to identify
victims will produce a variety of harms for decades to
come. Some harm will be immediate, in the form of
continued abuse, while others will take years to
manifest: beyond the rise in the number of victims
per offender, many former abuse victims may face a
host of long-term mental-health and substance-abuse
problems because the abuse was allowed to continue.

B. Because Louisiana’s penalty scheme does
away with the marginal deterrence that is a central
feature of punishment theory, the scheme will also
encourage abusers to kill their victims. Under Louisiana
law, abusers face no greater penalty for raping
and killing their victims than for solely raping them;
thus, it is more likely that an abuser will choose to
eliminate the victim, who is in many instances the
sole witness to the crime.

C. Even were Louisiana’s penalty scheme to
function as the legislature presumably hoped—i.e.,
with abusers brought to trial and child victims testifying
against them—Louisiana’s law would greatly
magnify the trauma that child victims already experience
while participating in the criminal justice
process. Even ordinary trials are highly traumatic
for child victims; death-penalty trials, with their
vastly increased publicity, expansive hearings, and
multiplying pre-trial and post-conviction proceedings,
will intensify that trauma by increasing the
scope and duration of the child victim’s participation
in the criminal justice system. Not only will this increased
exposure hinder child victims’ healing process,
the imposition of a death sentence also will add
to the guilt that child victims sometimes feel and
may preclude the possibility of a future therapeutic
meeting between the victim and his or her abuser.

D. Finally, the message sent to child victims by
Louisiana’s imposition of the death penalty on child
rapists—that child rape is as terrible a crime as the
worst murder—will impede victims’ recovery. By
equating the two crimes, child victims may come to
believe that they, like murder victims, are irreparably
harmed. That result would undermine victims’
ability to heal.

http://www.abanet.org/publiced/preview/briefs/pdfs/07-08/07-343_PetitionerAmCu2SocWkr5AntiSexassltOrgs.pdf

[avedon]

120. That just would have made it harder for me to recover.

You haven't really thought through the kind of burden you would place on the surviving victim.

[varkam]

121. You know, I'm not sure if many people actually care about the surviving victim.

And this isn't a commentary on how jansez feels, but rather just something that I have noticed in broader terms. I've seen that many people will often go to extreme lengths in their expression of support for severe punishment, but I'm not sure that the motivation is actually focused on regard for the victim.

Welcome to DU, by the way :hi:

[Iris]

123. I agree. I think people are just so outraged and horrified by the crime that they

somehow think allowing the government to kill someone will make it go away or at least make it tolerable.

[Phillycat]

125. You're right, I don't care about the survivor.

:eyes:

I was a lot younger than you when I started getting raped by an immediate family member. You need to stop assuming you have any idea what other people's backgrounds or motivations are.

[varkam]

126. I specifically said that my comment wasn't about you, janesez.

:hi:

[Phillycat]

124. I am a survivor.

Don't tell me what I haven't thought through. Try to refrain from assuming things about people you don't know on the internet.

[IronLionZion]

43. Wow varkam, thank you for sharing your story.

I can certainly relate to what you went through and how you feel. I'm not ready to share my story with DU, in fact the only one who knows is my girlfriend and she's non-judgmental, but I appreciate you writing this. Some DUers can be pretty damn judgmental so kudos for having the courage to share your story.

K+R

[aikoaiko]

45. I know this came up in the context of the DP for child rapists and none of the individuals you

mention would have met the definition of child rape punishable by DP, per se (at least not with the details you provided). Laws and definitions differ but generally child rape involves penis-orifice penetration.

And while its true that we all make shameful mistakes at some point in time most of do NOT put our penises into children.

[varkam]

47. Well, the point of my post wasn't really to say...

that you would be executing these individuals - merely that they are not monsters as so many claim, but rather have done some monstrous things and that there is a difference there.

[aikoaiko]

50. Monster is just a metaphor --- no one thinks that a chid rapists isnt a genetic human

Of course it is their behavior that is being discussed -- and what punishment is suitable.

That a molester or even child rapist have feelings of remorse (especially after being caught) is not news and doesn't make their actions less "monstrous".

[varkam]

59. Of course. My intent was not to say that they are homo sapiens.

But rather that I disagree with the practice of using singular events to condemn the whole of a person's being. The way I figure it, to condemn the whole of a person would require an omniscience that not a single one of us has. That, and also I make a distinction between the action and the actor. I don't think that people doing "bad" things makes them "bad" people, nor do I think that people doing "good" things makes them "good" people. I think that, quite simply, we are all just people and, as a consequence, make many decisions. Some of those decisions are good, and some of those decisions are bad, but I don't think that we are qualified to say whether anyone is an angel or a demon as a result of one or two of those decisions.

[aikoaiko]

64. It really doesn't matter to me if you call them monsters, good people who made bad decision, or...

...whatever. What matters to me is that they are punished appropriately and, when appropriate, helped with the opportunity to return to society. But some should never see the light of day, again.

While some cases are less severe and contain more special circumstances, some cases are heinous, severe, and depraved. For them it is a shame the death penalty is not an option. Call 'em people with bad decision making skills if you want -- in my opinion some of them should be dead.

[varkam]

68. I'm not saying that they are good people who made a bad decision.

Rather, I am saying that they are people. Period.

I agree that punishment should be appropriate, but I also think that should be guided by an individual's risk and the seriousness of the crime - not how upset we are with that person.

Call 'em people with bad decision making skills if you want -- in my opinion some of them should be dead.

I'm not calling them "people with bad decision making skills". I'm calling them people.

In my opinion, the death penalty is a barbaraic practice that makes us no better than the people that we condemn to die, but that's my opinion.

[rhett o rick]

93. If I may jump in. I agree with both of you I think. Sounds like you both agree with the need

for appropriate punishment.

I think Varkam summed it up with: "In my opinion, the death penalty is a barbaric practice that makes us no better than the people that we condemn to die, but that's my opinion." I completely agree with this statement. Where as I believe it is societies right or even obligation to remove from society those that are a danger to society, killing is not the way. Killing them makes us killers.

Punishment should never be used for vengeance or revenge.

Forgive me Varkam and/or Aikoaiko if I stepped on either of your arguments.

[JVS]

49. I don't see this potential application death penalty as an issue to be excited about.

As many problems as there may be with the application of the death penalty in this country, the idea that it might be used against people who rape children is not one of the biggies. While I see no need to call for this penalty being applied in this circumstance, I also have no objection to it being applied in this circumstance. I don't think the DP should be used in cases where evidence may arise that a person was innocent, but in cases that are certain I have no problem with it.

And finally, politically speaking: anyone who thinks that our candidate should speak against the death penalty in the conjunction with such a hot-button issue, is being a ridiculous fool.

[JuniperLea]

51. Perspective is everything...

And yours feels very healthy to me. The care and feeding of hatred is something we see every day. It is so refreshing to see someone with what many would consider a good cause for hate, instead find good reasoning for letting go of said hate. It's the old sin vs. sinner story so many learned in Sunday school, and promptly forgot as adults. Your compassion for people who do monstrous things is very telling... that seems rare.

I wish you continued success in keeping your head together.

[redqueen]

52. Thank you.

[Joanne98]

53. There are so many grey areas. Thankyou for sharing!

[Danger Mouse]

56. I have a really hard time feeling even the slightest bit of pity for child molesters.

It's unchristian of me...and I've tried.
But it's just not there.

[dddem]

86. I understand how you feel

Do you recall a few years ago, a 10 year old boy (I think his name was Jeff Curley) was murdered by 2 men, and his body was dumped into a river? At that time, his father was calling to bring the death penalty back to Massachusetts (and who can blame him?). I am oppossed to the death penalty, and I struggled to come up with a clear argument why these 'monsters' should be allowed to live. I was in church (back when I still went to church) and it occurred to me that as a person who believes in God, and believing that God created us all, I had to accept that God created these two as much as he created Jeffrey Curley, and who was I to destroy what God had created. It seemed very arrogant to me. So basically, that's how I wrapped my Christian brain around he whole concept. I wouldn't go so far to say I could forgive, but I certainly can't destroy what I believe is a child of God. And if I recall, Jeffrey Curley's father has had a change of heart, and is now a vocal opponant of the death penalty.
Peace

[Bluenorthwest]

57. Very brave

And clearly written. Personal is political. Good on ya, sir. And here's to your continued growth and happiness.

[SidDithers]

58. Thanks, varkam...

you make DU a better place with your presence.

:toast:

Sid

[TBF]

60. I worked in a psychiatric hospital for a few years out of college, and you

could have been one of my patients, Varkam. I feel the Court did the right thing in limiting DP cases to those actually involving death. Mental illness is not understood or talked about nearly enough in our society, and we have much to do as a nation to remedy that. Instead we just keep locking people up and think that will solve the problem. Thank you for sharing your story.

[ismnotwasm]

61. Thank you for this

Personally with a few exceptions, I see horrid crimes like these as societal problems rather than the problems of a single individual, problems that takes a societies solution. (Which, in my opinion, does not include the death penalty)I have met a human monster or two in my life, or rather as much as I try to fathom whatever motivation, impulse, mental illness or plain brain damage that caused the behavior I just can't get there. Monster or not, the human part remains.

I have a friend who was murdered by a serial killer who took women out into the wilderness and hunted them like animals, for example. I knew a woman, a prostitute and a junkie (Now deceased) who pimped out her 8 year old daughter, performed sex acts with her right along with her customers.

I know an expert nurse witness in child development, who gets to testify about the relative ages of children in terms like the hand size of a male holding down a rounded, child like abdomen for penetration.

I know worse stories.

I have a very good friend who is a public defender. I see him on TV once in a while. He defends mostly dumbassess, but once in a while he defends a truly disgusting individual. He says the same thing you do, they are human beings, and as much as he despises what they do, the only way he's able to represent them is to hold on to the idea of basic humanness. The right to representation is a foundation of American society, no matter how much we hate or despise the crime or the criminal.

[varkam]

63. I've heard some pretty terrible things, as well.

And sometimes it really gets to me, that we could do such terrible, painful things to one another. I think the natural tendency is to hate, and to be angry...and it's really no surprise. But like the hatred that I had for my abuser, I think the only people that it really screws up is ourselves.

I am very sorry for your friend...both of them, actually, as well as your friend's daughter who has to carry the scars of her childhood throughout her life.

I think that it is an interesting balance to try and strike...one in which you are able to have empathy for both parties - the victims and the perpetrators. Ultimately though, I think it is at least useful in that a system of punishment based upon vengeance isn't going to serve the needs of society in the end (at least I don't think that it will).

[justaregularperson]

83. Yes, if we really wish to reduce these crimes this is not a way to do it

These are societal problems. We have more murders per capita than most industrialized countries, most of which do not have a death penalty. All the rage and calls for revenge simply end up contributing by distracting us and result in more rape and murder. What do we really want? To quench a need for retribution or to save lives? It is as simple as that.

[Runcible Spoon]

62. thank you for sharing this, it must be difficult to open up about that but these stories help heal

:hug:

[MedleyMisty]

65. Thank you for your honesty

I admit that I still have a blind spot in my empathy and compassion - I totally get compassion and empathy for the victims and for the perpetrators. But I find that I cannot understand or feel empathy or compassion for the people who have never been either and sit in judgement from their comfortable and safe lives. (Yes, I have been sexually abused but it was quite minor and hasn't really affected me that much - I'd probably still get triggered by exploitation of females even if it hadn't happened.)

I see from your responses to posts on this thread that you even have that. Thank you. DU is full of role models, and I have found another one.

[BobTheSubgenius]

69. I was once deeply involved with a woman who.....

...it came out much later, was a child rape victim who had never had any therapy, or help of any kind. In fact, apart from her eldest sister who more or less raised her after their mother died, she had never told anyone that it ever happened, until she told me.

She never told me who, and said she never would, and I'm glad she didn't. I'm afraid of what I might have done with that knowledge... that knowledge coupled with the fact that whoever it was had beaten the SOL by a couple of decades. It wasn't the heat of anger I felt, it was cold fury.

There are more details that I could relate, but they wouldn't add much to this post except a catharsis-that-isn't. I always feel worse when I think or talk about it, not better. There aren't many I could talk about it with anyway.

Suffice to say that it has pretty much ruined her life....with rage, substance abuse - both sporadic but PROFOUND - and a deep, deep sense of aloneness.

I will not presume to say I know how you feel, varkam, because clearly I don't. But I can glimpse the edges.

You are a brave and honest man. Here's to you.

[Vickers]

70. Wow!

Just...wow! Awesome post, my friend. I think I need to read this again later and maybe digest it a little bit, but I just wanted to say that it has made a tremendous impression on me.

[lala_rawraw]

72. that took more courage than I can imagine...

thank you for sharing your story

[FourScore]

73. Wow. That took courage. Thank you. nt

[struggle4progress]

74. Ouch!

I cannot know what finding honesty and forgiveness has cost you, but I hope you find yourself amply repaid by both with the passage of time

[kwassa]

76. I've met monsters.

Fortunately, they didn't have major power in the world.

But, they were completely without conscience, and would hesitate at nothing to get what they want.

The ones you see, Varkham, I assume are in program and at least understand they have a problem. The ones I am talking about don't believe they have any problem at all, and will cause much damage to others before they are stopped, if they are ever stopped, and some are not.

I still don't believe in the death penalty, but monsters are real and out there.

[Rowdyboy]

77. "Anger is like an acid that destroys the vessel in which it is stored..."

I saw that at work years ago and its never left me.

Many of us have met our own monsters-I've met a few over the years too. One was my best friend's brother-in-law, a lawyer who sexually molested my friends two young sons 15 years ago. Two years ago the oldest boy, age 21, committed suicide. The brother-in-law, who was my friend and a guest in my home is doing 25 years now but it hardly matters.

I'm not able to wrap my brain around the concept of drawing pleasure from inflicting pain on others-I simply can't grasp how its possible. And yes, when it happens to children or the elderly it strikes me as particularly heinous-though why it matters is hard to understand-a life is a life, regardless of age.

Regardless, thank you for a well written piece. It'll give me something to think about for a few days.

[Not Sure]

79. Me too. I was molested over the course of a couple years

around the time I was 7 or 8. I see your points and understand what you deal with to this day vis a vis your addictions and indiscretions. I also agree that the death penalty is never justified. I know it in my mind to be true. But when I hear of sexual abuse of children, I want the perpetrator dead. In my heart, that's what I feel right away. I do just about everything in life by the book, so to speak. And that probably comes from feeling like I had done something wrong for so many years before I realized it wasn't my fault.

But should sexual abuse become a part of my daughters' lives, I don't know if I can do things by the book or if reason will override emotion or even if reason will survive. I just try to make sure it never happens, without being heavy handed about it, but still being informative and protective of my children. I don't want to know how I'd respond to a person who violated my children. I think it's my extra perspective on this issue that makes me doubt how fast I'd hold to my principles that relate to other people when my family's resolve is tested.

Am I holding on to my hate and anger? I don't think so. I spent a lot of years working my past out and came to feel nothing one way or the other for the man who violated me. It's knowing that process of guilt, self-doubt, denial, feeling ostracized, overcompensating, feeling uncomfortable and dirty and haunted in every sexual situation for every relationship prior to my marriage. Knowing that in some form or fashion, that's what children of sexual abuse endure beyond the physical act. That's what fuels my vigilance, keeps me awake late at night and up early in the morning and home every night to look after my children. That's what pushes me to talk candidly -- though at an age-appropriate level -- with my daughters about what constitutes sexual abuse so they know what it is if it happens to them.

My opinions might not be those of the perfect Democrat or hell, for all I know, they might not have anything in common with anyone else, but I spent years of denial, solitude, acceptance, and recovery on this subject and my opinions work for me. It's fine for some to follow that Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner creed, but I will not. I understand some people are innocent and some perceive degrees of guilt, but knowing how abuse of this kind can put the abused on autopilot for the rest of their lives keeps me from wanting anything to do with them.

Thank you for having the courage to offer this post, varkam, and for prompting me to exorcise some of these demons. I've been here at DU for years as a lurker and I spend at least two minutes a day on this site, but I rarely contribute. Finally I feel invested here with this, the least anonymous of my anonymous posts, and whether I'm judged to be right or wrong, I feel comfortable enough to say, "this is me and this happened to me."

[varkam]

80. Thank you.

My opinions might not be those of the perfect Democrat or hell, for all I know, they might not have anything in common with anyone else, but I spent years of denial, solitude, acceptance, and recovery on this subject and my opinions work for me. It's fine for some to follow that Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner creed, but I will not. I understand some people are innocent and some perceive degrees of guilt, but knowing how abuse of this kind can put the abused on autopilot for the rest of their lives keeps me from wanting anything to do with them.

I don't think there is such a thing as a "perfect" Democrat, or a perfect anything else for that matter. Personally, I think things would be pretty boring if we all thought exactly alike.

I agree with what you have to say about the effects of such abuse. From my perspective, though, I see it as kind of a cyclical thing - I guess that's one reason why it's easy(ier) for me to have some sort of empathy for people who can do these sorts of things, as it turns out that a good number of people who do these things are merely visiting on others what was done to them at one point. In other words, there's a duality of victim and perpetrator all rolled into one. That's not to condone the commission of a crime, but it adds a human element to things.

Thank you for having the courage to offer this post, varkam, and for prompting me to exorcise some of these demons. I've been here at DU for years as a lurker and I spend at least two minutes a day on this site, but I rarely contribute. Finally I feel invested here with this, the least anonymous of my anonymous posts, and whether I'm judged to be right or wrong, I feel comfortable enough to say, "this is me and this happened to me."

Thank you for having the courage to offer yours, as well as for your kind words. I don't think that anyone will judge you to be right or wrong, and certainly not me.

[Swagman]

85. Thank you !-and another aspect about this that is not talked ....

about is the fact that if an offendor is put to death-the person mollested /raped is still around ( unlike a person murderd !)

Now that is some very heavy shit to put on someone-they have to live their life not only with the abuse but knowing someone was killed because of them ! Think about it ! How many people could really deal with ?

You are possibly giving the victim reasons to never recover from the original event..everyday (unless they had no feelings) in the back of their mind would be the fact that someone died because of them !

[TZ]

87. Quite a post and probably the most painfully honest thing I have read here.

As for your guilt for doing bad things...You are going to have to accept what you've done and live with it (which is sounds like you have). You are a good person...someone who made mistakes and deeply regrets them. Bad people know they have done bad/evil acts but just don't care.
I have a close friend who is in a terrible moral/emotional mess right now. Its made him do some things that are morally questionable..things that made him tell me outright that he thinks he's a "monster". And my response was--no you are not. You are human and have made some mistakes because of that. And ironically his mistakes are coming because he is such a good and caring person...
So thanks again for the honesty. That couldn't have been easy for you to write. I have always liked and respected you, varkam...now I respect you even more......It takes a certain amount of strength to be where you are today...:hug:

[Politicub]

89. It's amazing where you've been

and how far you've come. Thank you for sharing your story. FWIW, I think you're very courageous to wade into this emotional thicket.

[adamuu]

90. Thank you for this.

This post was very meaningful for me.
Thank you.

[malaise]

91. A superb post

You understand the meaning of 'human'.

[pipi_k]

92. Letting go of the hatred is the hardest thing

I wasn't molested as a young child, but my daughter was, by a brother in law.

For a long long time I blamed myself, because I repeated the same mantra to my kids as my own mother said to me...."Watch out for strangers". Well, it's not always the strangers who are going to do harm to you...

This man also molested three of his own daughters, two more little girls that I know of, and tried to entice another little neighbor girl into his home but was foiled when she reported the incident to her mom and the police went to his house. He was arrested and prosecuted for what he did to my daughter and those two other little girls and served only probationary time. This was almost 25 years ago. The mental scars still remain for all the girls, now women, involved.

I hated him at first. If I could have choked the life from him, I probably would have. It's taken such a long time for me to let go of the hatred I felt toward this man. What did help was knowing that this is a sickness he can't help. In some ways, I'm probably even more angry at my sister (who is married to this man) for defending and enabling his behavior. If she hadn't been in denial herself, he might have gotten the help he so desperately needed/still needs.

My only consolation in letting this go...aside from not being consumed with hatred that, yes, will only hurt me in the end...is that whatever punishment he escaped from the legal system has been turned around and exacted by the law of Karma.

I feel that Life itself has punished him...and will continue to punish him...and that I don't have to lift a finger against him, and I can let go of the hatred that simmered inside me for so long. Funny thing is, as you've mentioned about people like that being seen by the general population as "monsters", if you saw this guy, you would never guess. Not in a million years...he seems to be the perfect husband...perfect loving father. He doesn't look like a monster at all.

Mixed feelings are so hard to deal with, aren't they...


PS...thank you for having the courage to tell your story. I'm glad that you could also find peace. :)

[uberllama42]

95. Thank you for sharing your insights

I think I am a better person for having read this.

[qwlauren35]

96. Most of what you're describing

Isn't rape. And the courts have many, many distinctions.

It's the child-rape-murderers that I hate the most. I think of them as monsters. And I don't think you could ever change my mind about it. The serial child rapists who lure children into danger, i.e. kidnap them, are my second biggest bugaboo.

The priests... not going to try to kill them. Just want them in jail.

I guess my image of a monster is a lot more lenient. It's the serial violent offender, who maims, and tortures, that gets my vote for execution.

But I also believe that a part of the decision would require psychological examination to ascertain probable recidivism.

I believe that a death sentence should NOT be an automatic consequence of a guilty verdict, but a completely separate trial.

[info being]

103. And you trust the american justice system with all those caveats?

Really, the same system that imprisons a the highest rates in the world? Not me.

[Kajsa]

97. Varkam, this is one of the most courageous

posts I've seen in a long time.

Not only do you tell your story, which is difficult for many of us
in recovery, but you explain what's behind the actions.

I'm so sorry you had to live through the trauma of rape.
:(

I thank you for sharing this, Varkam.

You are again a voice of reason, sanity and yes, serenity.

:hug:

[MichiganVote]

98. Well I have met monsters so while your pov can be healthy-it can also be deadly.

[info being]

99. You're speaking to us as one human being to another

Unfortunately, most of what goes on in the public sphere of this sick environment called America is incompatible with such tones, sentiments, relationships.

Thank you for bypassing all the crap and speaking to us directly. I hear you.

[sui generis]

101. Justice Kennedy said that as a society we must demonstrate decency

and that execution of a criminal for a crime that doesn't involve taking a life does not follow that value. Thank you for your human decency; it makes all of us stronger.

The biggest issue is that we all look alike on the outside, mostly. We tend to think there is only one standard of sanity, of competence, of sense of wrong and right while overlooking that our brains are as varied in how they process information as freckles and port wine stains and hair types and color. Skin or hair or eye color s still functional as skin, hair or eye color but we all have external subtle morphological differences that treat better or worse in different environments. Why not recognize that we're as varied and variable in the nuance of our brains?

Even if there were only one credible standard for "sanity" based on some flimsy moral premise, it is clear to me that sane people do not drown their children. Sane people do not get turned on by pre-pubescent humans. Sane people do not murder other people over a disagreement.

Yet we seem to think of murderers, and child-killers and child sex offenders as somehow "sane" because they are competent to stand trial, never mind the fact of what they did to get there.

Our parameters are so disconnected from reality that we believe you can be "cold and calculating" when one is drowning their babies for jesus, or "inhuman and monstrous" when diddling kids or shooting a clerk at point blank for pocket change. Why do we even have such a distinction?

So I have a problem with the death penalty too - it's not decent. If you want decent, put that person in isolation for the rest of their days, no family, friends, reporters, internet, books, nothing. Just basic health, sanitation and an occasional haircut. Give them a pill or a button to push, and a regular opportunity to record their last wishes indicating they intend to fast-forward, and let them hang on to their cell or move on to the morgue, as they wish. But this cathartic nonsense about the death penalty, I've said it before and have no problem repeating it.

It's for cavemen. It is not civilized, decent or the mark of a society advanced in anything that matters. It punishes NOBODY, it deters NOBODY. Batshit crazy or not, if somebody knew they might end up sitting in a hole for the next thirty years devoid of all human contact or activity, it's a lot scarier than taking a long dirt nap after a nice sleepy time shot, and it's not cruel punishment because they can elect (irreversibly) to end their misery and free up a cell for the next bit of piss poor protoplasm.

[RaleighNCDUer]

105. For my two cents, that's a lot more than two cents worth there.

People like to pretend that they are incapable of such things, but the fact is we are all human and all people are capable of anything we can imagine. And it is those who believe themselves better than such acts who are, IMO, most vulnerable as they have no mental defenses up to warn them that they are about to step over the line.

Thanks.

[varkam]

110. That is exactly what I think.

And it is those who believe themselves better than such acts who are, IMO, most vulnerable as they have no mental defenses up to warn them that they are about to step over the line.

Have you read The Lucifer Effect by Philip Zimbardo? If not, I think you would enjoy it.

[Phillycat]

111. I am not capable of raping a child.

If you are, I suggest you turn yourself in immediately.

[sui generis]

116. I'm trying to understand you

I am capable of imagining that you could rape a child, just as I know that when push comes to shove you would fight against dying, starvation, or rape yourself.

I see that you are capable of murdering another human. Why should I believe you aren't capable of any other crime?

Not trying to be mean or provocative or directed at "you" you - the point is discussion.

I think desperate people are capable of making terrible moral choices. Would you drive the bus off the cliff or run over the baby in the road?

I personally don't think sane people "choose" to rape children, but I also don't think we should execute crazy people. If so, there wouldn't be a republican left on the planet.

[LeftishBrit]

115. Wonderful post. Thank you.

[Pavulon]

119. Sad, sick feeling in my gut.

that is a hell of a thing to speak about. Most people have someone they know who has been hurt by abuse.

I know people have horrible issues they may deal with. But I have met lots of people who have done things under the influence that they would probably do sober. Cheating on their spouses for example. Traveled with guys who used the fact they were drunk to justify their behavior.

I am torn because my wife works in the medical field. She sees kids and teenagers with histories that would, without a doubt, lead me to kill a person if that was my child. Kill them and then eat a meal with no thought about what was done. That alone is very scary. I am a pretty calm person.

There are monsters, there are people who have no let off.

These things provoke a primordial response from the human brain. I don't know if anger is the right emotion.

I can say that a person who has a dna case on a 12 and under victim should die in a place like ADX. They should be removed from society and never see sunlight again and never hear a human voice.

It is not a death sentence but is fitting.

[TexasObserver]

130. Thank you for your courage in posting this.

With courts considering 13 and 14 adults for purposes of crime, and with many sexual abuse victims becoming abusers themselves by that age, I oppose judging too harshly those who commit such behaviors. In time, many will stop being victims or abusers on their own, unless they are adjudged sex offenders. If that happens, God only knows where their lives end.

I'll be candid. I don't want to see 13-16 year old boys who have been chronically sexually abused, and then who adopt such behaviors with other boys, to be judged criminals. We need a more thoughtful approach to that branch of sexual abuse. Adults against kids is a whole different thing, of course.