Thoughts on Being Part of a Community (the DU) that is Presumed ‘Far to the Left’ of Most Americans

[Time for change]

I’ve noted a good deal of what seems to me like desperation, despondency, and despair on the DU lately. Because these are very unhealthy symptoms, I have been thinking a lot about their cause.

One thing that stands out in my mind as an important cause is that we (most of us) are in some very important sense a minority in our own country. That is, we are considered by many or most people to be ‘far to the left’ of most other Americans. Being surrounded by people who are very different than us can have deleterious effects. Too frequently things happen that we find abhorrent, or we come to feel like outcasts. I put ‘far to the left’ in quotes because it is not absolutely clear what that phrase means. But I believe it is worth thinking about.


Our core principles

I find it useful when I feel like a minority to consider what it is that makes me so. These are some of the issues on which most DUers appear to differ significantly from most other Americans, and which explain most of our current discontent:

Justice
We believe in the ideals on which our country was founded. We especially believe in that part of the United States Declaration of Independence that says that we are all created equal and therefore have the inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And we believe that those things should apply regardless of one’s race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, nationality, disabilities, or the amount of money that a child’s parents have to provide him or her with food, shelter, clothing, health care, and a decent education.

Law and Constitution
We believe in the rule of law, within and between nations, and in the Constitution of the United States of America, including its Bill of Rights, which protect many of our liberties. We believe that our laws and Constitution should apply to our nation’s leaders as well as to the common people. Our Constitution has a remedy for leaders who violate our laws and the Constitution itself. We believe that to the extent that our leaders are allowed to violate our Constitution with impunity our Constitution becomes meaningless.

Democracy
We believe in democracy, and that a true democracy involves more than merely the holding of elections every two years. In particular, we believe in the principle of one-person-one-vote. That principle is corrupted when any of the following apply:
 Our votes are counted in secret on machines created by private interests
 Money has inordinate influence in our political process
 Powerful private interests have a monopoly on the news and information that most Americans receive

War and militarism
We believe that it is almost always best for nations to settle their disputes with each other by non-violent means, and that war should be a policy of last resort. More important, we believe that the innocent should not have to die and suffer because of the desires of those who rule their country – who rarely share in the death and suffering.


On the ‘far left’ political beliefs of most DUers

Other ‘far left’ political beliefs of most DUers include…. well, actually I think that the above list pretty well sums up the political beliefs that we all have in common. But wait! Are those beliefs really to the ‘far left’ of most Americans? Basically, all I’ve said is that we believe in the ideals of the U.S. Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution, democracy, and diplomacy over war. Don’t the good majority of Americans believe in those things?

I believe that most do. So, there must be some other reason why so many of us are considered to be ‘far to the left’, or even merely to the left of center.


Lack of credulity and anti-authoritarianism

I believe that what makes most of us most different from most other Americans is our lack of credulity and our anti-authoritarianism (which are two very closely related personality traits). In other words, we don’t necessarily believe what our “authorities” lead us to believe.

We don’t necessarily believe what our government tells us. We don’t necessarily believe what we hear from our corporate news media. We – even those of us who are religious – don’t necessarily believe what our religious leaders tell us. Nor do we necessarily believe what we hear from our parents, our teachers, our friends or each other.

Instead, we amass all the information we can, and then we use our minds and our hearts to figure out what to believe and what not to believe. In other words we have what is in my opinion a healthy skepticism towards most things. Because of this, in addition to being considered ‘far to the left’, we are also frequently called ‘conspiracy theorists’, which is meant to be even more insulting than ‘liberal’ and almost as bad as ‘Communist’.

But why should a healthy skepticism towards most things be something that brands us as different, ‘far left’, or even dangerous in the minds of so many people? To understand that we need to consider what most Americans believe.


What most Americans believe, as contrasted to most of us

There is, of course, a wide spectrum of beliefs among the American people on all of these various issues (I emphasize this because I don’t want to stereotype people.) But I think it’s fair to say that most of us fall on one extreme side of that spectrum with respect to the issues that I discussed above:

Justice
Most Americans believe that there is far more justice in our country than most of us believe there to be. They hear us complaining about economic inequality in our country, for example, and they don’t understand the problem we have with that. They’re so attuned to hearing about the wonders of the “free market” and the great opportunities that our country provides to everyone that when they see CEOs making 500 times as much money as a common laborer it never occurs to them that obscene wealth differences might have a lot more to do with unequal opportunity due to a system rigged in favor of those who created it than with hard work, initiative, creativity, yada yada yada.

They look at the homeless or those unable to afford health care, and they figure that those people must in some way deserve their fate. Yes, some are just plain greedy and want to justify what they have in whatever way they can, no matter how they obtained it. But most Americans aren’t wealthy, and they still believe this stuff to varying degrees (at least much more than we do). They may believe them simply because of their constant repetition, or because they think it would be “un-American” to believe that opportunity isn’t equally distributed in this country.

The same can be said about the fact that the United States of America has by far the highest prison rate in the world. Most Americans probably don’t even know that. Or if they do, they don’t think much about it. If two million Americans are in prison, surely they must deserve to be there, or they need to be there for our protection. The possibility that there are political reasons for our high prison rate or that our private prison industry (and their lobbyists) benefits from it never occurs to them. Their faith in the fairness of their country won’t allow them to consider those possibilities.

Law and Constitution
It is true that nearly half of the American people agree when polled that impeachment hearings should be held to investigate the accusations of crimes and Constitutional violations by George Bush and Dick Cheney (and undoubtedly that number would skyrocket once impeachment hearings began to be televised). But few Americans are as concerned about it as most of us are. Many consider the lack of mainstream news coverage of the many Bush and Cheney crimes as pretty good evidence that they don’t exist. Many of those who are somewhat aware of some of those crimes believe that they couldn’t pose much of a threat to our nation, because if they did then surely Congress would have initiated impeachment hearings by now.

Fewer still are aware that thousands or tens of thousands of men and boys are rotting away in prisons around the world, having been placed there by the U.S. government, with no opportunity to contest their imprisonment under a system resembling due process of law – or that untold numbers of these men and boys have been repeatedly tortured. When Senator Durbin first brought this to the attention of the U.S. Senate and compared some of our prisoners to Nazi prisoners he was thoroughly castigated. The United States of America doesn’t do that kind of thing, so we’ve been told so many times.

Democracy
Stolen U.S. Presidential elections? Not in our country! So taboo is this subject that even some liberal journalists deny it, and even some liberal blog sites threaten their members with banishment if they discuss it.

Though there has been a fair amount of effort in our country to lessen the influence of money in politics, we still have a very long way to go. If other Americans considered this to be as big a problem as we do, Congress would be forced to pass legislation requiring the public financing of elections, and then the unfair political advantages of the wealthy would be greatly curtailed.

Our corporate news media? Few Americans are aware that the good majority of news that they receive is skewed or spun according to the plans of a few wealthy individuals who monopolize the most frequently used news sources. Most even still buy the idea of the “liberal news media”.

War and militarism
The good majority of Americans believe that Bush and Cheney led us into war for some at least marginally legitimate reason other than to add tens of billions of dollars to the wealth of their already rich and powerful friends – despite the abundance of evidence to the contrary. They may not believe that we went to war because of Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction, his ties to al Qaeda, or because Saddam himself perpetrated the 9-11 attacks on our country. But most are willing to accept some semi-innocent explanation, such as the “freedom” we intended to bring to the Iraqi people or Bush and Cheney’s desire to “fight them over there so that we won’t have to fight them over here”.

And even most of those who currently believe that we should withdraw from Iraq have no idea what we’ve done to the Iraqi people and their country. They are clueless about the hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians we’ve killed for no good reason, or the four million refugees we’ve produced over there. And they are clueless to the fact that most Iraqis can’t stand us and desperately want us to stop occupying and spreading terror in their country.


What can we do?

There are no simple or easy answers on how to deal emotionally with our current situation. When we see our elected representatives vote to fund an immoral and illegal war, immunize those who have violated our Constitutional rights, pass laws that further violate our Constitutional rights, or allow Bush and Cheney to repeatedly trample on our Constitution with impunity, it is painful and often infuriating. To the extent that that pain and anger spurs us to work to achieve the political goals for our country that we believe in, that pain and anger serves a productive purpose. But pain and anger can also be non-productive or counter-productive.

As some DU poster have noted recently, Democrats or liberals can’t win with their base alone. There simply aren’t enough of us, and we must accept that. Accepting something does not by any means preclude trying to change it. Accepting it simply means recognizing that it exists and not allowing it to drive you into despair or cloud your judgment to such an extent that you act in counter-productive ways. And it also means recognizing what you cannot change.

Ralph Nader is perhaps a good example of someone who was unable to do that. Ralph accomplished many great things in his life, and I still very much admire him for what he accomplished, despite the fact that I feel he made a grave and terribly harmful mistake by running for President in 2000. He was so outraged over the fact that Al Gore did not support certain ideas or policies that he considered to be of great importance that his outrage clouded his judgment to the extent that he failed to see any difference between Al Gore and George W. Bush.

Barack Obama perhaps serves as a counter-point to Nader’s mistake. Some of the things he does – such as refusing to give any credence to the impeachment movement – are painful to me. But then, especially as a black nominee for President, he has to be extremely careful not to be painted as a “wild-eyed liberal”, as was George McGovern unfairly painted in 1972. Does advocating the impeaching of two men who have perpetrated the most radical violations of our Constitution in our history make one a “wild-eyed liberal”? Of course not! But with a Presidential election looming and a hostile corporate news media breathing down our necks, perhaps it would be better for Democrats other than the nominee to lead the way on impeachment.

Anyhow, since we can’t win with our base alone, then how do we get others to join us and stay with us? We don’t do it with scathing critical attacks against well meaning potential allies who don’t share all our views. But we don’t have to give up our principles either. We should recognize both the commonalities and the differences that we have with those who are closest to us politically, and with well meaning moderates and even some conservatives as well. We should be patient and empathetic with them. We should recognize that we share many common values with them and that our biggest differences with them may be honest differences of opinion on the nature of the reality that we are faced with. Most people see that reality as less abhorrent than we do. We can explain our beliefs and positions to them and argue with them in a respectful manner about our differences. But at the same time we can work with them to achieve our common goals.


What being a part of DU means to me

Norton Garfinkle writes at the end of his book, “The American Dream Vs. The Gospel of Wealth”:

From the standpoint of morality the public needs to believe that America operates on the principle of fairness. Americans must view their government as pursuing policies that are fair to all citizens, and not hopelessly skewed to those who, by dint of their wealth, can command greatest control over government policy and the distribution of society’s resources…

If income inequality continues to grow… it will be increasingly difficult to sustain the belief that Americans share a common destiny that outweighs the differences that divide us…

Very true, but we need more than the belief that our country operates on the principle of fairness. In fact, many or most Americans already have that. The belief without the reality of fairness simply allows those in power to consolidate their advantages until it is no longer possible to reverse them. That is exactly what they want. (I’m sure that Garfinkle realizes that but used a slightly unfortunate choice of words).

Therefore, our country desperately needs leaders who have the courage to point out to the American people when their beliefs deviate too far from reality. That is one big reason why most of us at DU just love to see things like Dennis Kucinich and Robert Wexler taking courageous stands on impeachment or Russ Feingold and Chris Dodd taking a courageous stand on holding the telecoms accountable for their crimes. When we see such leaders who are unafraid to say what has to be said, defending our country and the values that we hold dear, it gives us new hope that we may some day reclaim our country.

In a similar way, the passion that I see every day on DU helps to give me hope and the realization that there are thousands if not millions of other people out there who share the same core values that I do – even when I disagree with some of the things they say. Passion is a wonderful thing, especially in the service of the values that I discuss in this post. But we do need to take care not to let it destroy us or our effectiveness in achieving our goals.
:toast:

[dmosh42]

1. Take my word for it. You're in the center!

I was born when FDR was in office, so have seen a lot of politics and know bullshit when I see it. You will find in November, that the center will re-institute itself, and all these Nazi right wingers will be eating shit again, like they did when I was young. They have all the media, and the money, but the greed overcomes them, and they start devouring each other, as you see with all these businesses that are going under. Most of these 'strays', who thought they might be rich Repukes, will want all those ideals that you outlined, to be a part of their life again. It takes them a while to realize how they were manipulated, but the lesson will be learned. Then the media will be using the terms, 'mainstream' to describe us on the DU.

[ReadTomPaine]

2. Bingo. This country's natural state is much farther to the left than the right.

There is no such thing as pushing too hard to the left at this time. These people are as far to the right as you can be.

[Time for change]

4. I don't understand on what basis you say that

Have you read many of my posts?

You mention FDR, who I've written about many times. Here's a couple:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2478176
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2848856

Maybe you misunderstand my point, or I didn't make it clear enough. I'm not saying that DUers are too far to the left. I'm saying that we are perceived that way by many people because they don't understand what we stand for and why.

What is it that you don't like about my positions or that you think are bullshit?

[Joe Chi Minh]

13. I was listening to a video clip of an interview with Noam Chomsky, last night,

in which he differs from you in the idea that DUers are far to the left of most people. It was what I always felt, and seemed to see confirmed by the massive democratic turnouts and landslide votes against the Republicans, in the Bush privatised elections over the last 8 years. The degenerate rump of the US right, on the other hand, view the European Social Democrats as barely to the right of hard-line Communists.

In fact, the video was fascinating. He said that at elections, the American people were regarded as an irrelevance, and the media only reflect this, while, in fact, the people want major change and always have done - most notably, of course, with regard to a government-funded health service for all.

What's happened recently is not that they've begun listening to the people in that regard, but rather it was the US industrialist themselves who realised it was advantageou to them, too. GM found it cost them more than $1000 extra to produce a car/automobile in Detroit than it would/does in Canada. Hence the apparent conversion to a reformed, more moral perspective on the subject!

[Time for change]

41. That’s interesting about Chomsky

I wonder why he doesn’t consider the DU to be to the left of most Americans?

[Joe Chi Minh]

42. I didn't mean to imply that Chomsky made express reference to DUers,

but that the country had already moved so much to the left anyway, that the assumption that DUers were on the political fringe was now plain wrong. Left is Centre; the Centre of the political spectrum IS the Left.

Americans may be more aware of Scandinavia's "leftie" credentials, and feel no reason to view its political orientation as a threat to their health and happiness, but rather as a standard bearer of the kind of health and happiness that they could enjoy, had their country not been in such merciless thrall to the brutality of Big Business.

Imperialism, alas, cuts both ways. It's a hard lesson to learn, but people eventually learn it. When WWII started, the men in Britain couldn't wait to join up. We were after all THE imperial power, etc, etc. Never mind that just a few decades earlier, the Surgeon General had had to turn away many recruits for the Boer War, because of the severe malnturition they were suffering.

However, I think there is a spectrum on DU, too; more monied people perhaps feeling more comfortable with the idea of Al Gore and Hillary in the Oval Office; not that I expect Al would be into perpetual war, permanent bases in Iraq, etc., and indeed I've read that he has moved further to the left.

[Psyop Samurai]

15. I think dmosh is just echoing your post from a different angle...

...saying that the construction of those with basic human values as the "far left" by the elite-owned perception management matrix (not by you) is bullshit. That's how I read it.
___

Of course, you are right about desperation, despondency, and despair not being healthy symptoms, and that we should take care that they not destroy us or our effectiveness in achieving our goals. But that is easier said than done, and we do not all have the same temperament or capacity. I have admired and learned from yours, but still it is not mine.

What I want to know is, what's the plan? Bottom line, the "media" either has to be destroyed, or we have to go around it to reach our fellow citizens. My experience suggests in the strongest possible terms that they can't be reached so long as the perception management matrix persists.

There's this lovely hope that the lie machine will somehow be transformed (or significantly ameliorated) under Democratic leadership (the evidence for which is exceedingly thin), and yet we are continually assaulted by Democratic candidates and officeholders reinforcing the BIG LIE at every opportunity for "political" reasons, even when it makes no sense and is utterly self-defeating.

I'm not trying to negate your post, and yes, circumstances being what they are, it would be better for Democrats other than the nominee to lead on some issues, and, to be blunt, accountability was not the package that was marketed or bought with Obama's candidacy in the first place.

But what is the plan? (Not asking you specifically, just putting it out there.) I'm sure I could personally be more effective and less self destructive if we were actually working towards something. And, no, "hope" doesn't cut it.

[Time for change]

20. Yes, I’m pretty sure you’re right about what dmosh meant by his comments

Thank you for pointing that out. Actually, my son pointed that out to me before your post. This is a very confusing issue. I was trying to clarify it for other people, and I got confused myself :blush:

You are certainly correct IMO that many Democrats reinforce the BIG LIE, and that is very disappointing.

And yes, it is easier said than done (avoiding desperation, despondency, etc.). I’m not always successful at that myself. But recognizing the harm that it can do does help me to avoid those things.

What is the plan? Unfortunately I can’t be very specific about that. My personal belief is that the corporate news media needs to be confronted by Democrats much more than they currently are. I wrote something like that a long time ago:
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Time%20for%20change/31
I do believe that being honest and straight forward about it will usually be the best policy, because the media kills us as it is.

I hope to God that if Obama wins in November he will aggressively go after and destroy the corporate news media monopoly on the news that most Americans receive.

[dmosh42]

24. Sorry if you read my reply that way.....

I do agree with your position, and my premise is that the large majority will also eventually be where you are, which will be 'in the mainstream', as they say.

[Time for change]

26. I'm sorry too

This whole thing is very confusing because, on the one hand I make the case that we're all a lot more centrist than we're viewed by the outside world -- in a certain sense -- that is, in our core values. But in another sense, in the sense of what we see and what we believe, we are far to the left. So when anyone, myself included, tries to talk about this, it can get very confusing.

Anyhow, I actually felt insulted by being called a centrist, even after I had made that point myself. How dumb! :blush:

I do hope that your predictions come to pass. It is so difficult to overcome a national news media that works very hard to distort everything to our disadvantage.

[lonestarnot]

56. That sounds glorious! Are you sure?

:9

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. I think you are right about the core ideals

and that most Americans simply don't think for themselves. I believe that is the main problem, and it is exacerbated by an anti-intellectualism that is encouraged by the far right. The other factor keeping many from the core values is fear--when one is afraid, one tends not to think. But that fear factor is growing old--a person can remain fearful only so long before they need a break--so perhaps more folks will wake up.

[Time for change]

11. Yes, fear, that's a big one

I wonder if they consider us to be far to the left because we aren't as fearful of terrorism as they are?

I think that stirring up fear this year will be their best chance to win the Presidency. If we have a terrorist attack in October I think it's going to be a very close election.

[mod mom]

5. Yeah us progressive DUers are so "far to the left" by suggesting rule of law and

justice for the criminals, and fighting the inequality of wealth (there are some DLC DUers who have problems with this last one), and no immoral wars.

[Time for change]

6. Yes, that's about it

No one would admit of course that they don't believe in the need for our Constitution. But most Americans have only a dim idea of how badly it's been violated, which makes us appear to be way to the left.

Blissful ignorance = conservatism, and as Steven Colbert has made clear, "reality has a liberal bias".

[GreenPartyVoter]

22. Not just blissful ignorance, but willful ignorance as well, which is far worse in my book.

[Echo In Light]

28. Long established irrational attitudes of submission to authority

[Time for change]

39. In my book too

I used the term “blissful ignorance” rather loosely. Willful ignorance may be just as common, and there is probably a thin line between them, or no line at all, as they probably usually occur together in various combinations.

[bjobotts]

52. Recent Pew polls show most Americans are "far left" on the issues.

[bjobotts]

53. Because the country was so far right that "far left" is actually centrist

[bjobotts]

54. Far left is communism and Marxism and I see none of that here.

[bjobotts]

55. You know what they say about "assumptions". Most Americans are what U are calling far left

[World Citizen]

7. Thank you!

I hope everyone here realizes that this election is all-out war.
It's time to call on every resource that we can come up with.
Since they have gotten away with every crime in the book, they
have no reason to stop at anything. They will continue with
the most outrageous crap possible and have it believed as
truth by some people. We must mobilize. Dig down and think.
It's brains that will win this war. We need to come up with
dozens of ideas to combat the bullshit. New Ideas! Improving
and modifying old ideas. Don't believe the polls. Don't get
comfortable till November 5th. Don't let this come down to
one state's vote counting scam. It must me so one-sided that
voting machine fraud can't even help them. We've seen what
they can do. Do you need more inspiration to engage in the
battle?

[Time for change]

14. "Since they have gotten away with every crime in the book, they have no reason to stop at anything"

That's what I'm afraid of.

I believe their most effective election crime in 2000 and 2004 was illegal purging of the voter rolls. There appear to have been a few hundred thousand illegal purges in Ohio, where the election was stolen. Democrats need to periodically check the voter rolls periodically to identify whether there's any monkey business going on, while there's still time to do something about it.

[many a good man]

8. You put your finger on it

Great post! It's up to us to drag the politicians to the left. Otherwise we're doomed.

[Time for change]

21. Thank you. Yes, the politicians must be dragged to the left.

I believe the reason that politicians are so far to the right of the American people is the influence of money in politics. Because of that, the wealthy in effect have so many more votes than the ordinary voters. So politicians will always be far to the right of the American people as long as that remains the case. We need to remove the influence of money in politics and destroy the corporate monopoly over the news that most Americans receive.

[lonestarnot]

57. So is it time to barbeque the rich and eat them for lunch?

:P

[lmarcotty]

9. Another important consideration

I've been reading "The Political Brain," by author whose name I can't remember, which makes the point - logically and reasonably ;o) - that many/most people do not vote based on logic, data or analysis. Their vote is controlled by their emotional responses to the candidates. Thus, the Democrats/progressives/liberals, who have reason and logic (and data) on their side and whose ideals include thinking for oneself, being open to different ideas, engaging in dialogue, etc. (are there conservatives who do this? hmmm), try to appeal to the reason and intellect of our citizenry - and that doesn't work. Knee-jerk, hot button issues, "personality" contests - these are what make a candidate attractive to most voters, and once the candidate has a voter's loyalty, whatever the candidate says sounds right to the voter.

I oversimplify, of course, but I do wish that someone in the Obama campaign would read this book and take it to heart. Fortunately, Obama has personality - he seems to know instinctively how to make an emotional appeal along with an appeal to reason, and he's willing to do it.

[Time for change]

29. Yes, that’s a very important consideration

I read a book by George Lakoff, a Democratic political consultant, on that topic

Unthinking emotional response is indeed something that very much influences elections, and Republicans have particularly developed skills in utilizing that fact. Manipulation of fear is their best ploy IMO.

But that doesn’t rule out a role for logic and honestly explaining where we stand on the issues.

And I believe you’re correct that Obama does indeed have very good instincts in that area. The best we’ve seen in a long time. I still believe that a black man in today’s United States faces serious challenges in winning a presidential election that are beyond what white men have to face. That Obama is where he is at this point in time is a tremendous testament to his political skills, among other things. If he has a successful presidency it will forever more be much easier for future black candidates, and all other minority candidates to do well IMO.

[Demeter]

10. Question Authority!!

Dear author, you just outed us as Hippie freaks (and some of us might have been, but as for the rest, the country shoved over so far to the right that even Nixon supporters look like communists these days!)

[Time for change]

35. Yes, our country moved way to the right between 1980 and 2005.

Hopefully the 2006 election is the start of an avalanche going in the other direction.

It is amazing how liberal Nixon looks today, in view of what we’ve gone through. The Environmental Protection Agency was created under his administration. But in foreign policy he was as conservative (i.e. warmonger and imperialist) as anyone – except Bush and Cheney.

[iamahaingttta]

12. The problem is with the Upside-Down People.

Swaths of people in this country will say that they believe in those things you outline, and that we don't. It's the War is Peace crowd, the Freedom is Slavery gang. I don't think there's a way to shake their reality back upright with mere words. I think they actually have to feel the pain of being oppressed in order the finally "get it." We're trying to save them from that fate, but they just keep getting in the way!

There's a serious problem with much of the human race...

[Time for change]

31. Yes, there certainly is a big problem with much of the human race

I was going to talk about that in my OP, but I decided that would be too much to add to an already long post.

I have read (and it seems reasonable to me) that the biggest problem is with a core of about 6% of the human race who are evil; those who have various talents to add to their evil core come to rule whole societies, from which they conduct their wars, genocide, etc.

It’s a fascinating and very important issue IMO. I talk about it in these 3 posts, all based largely on the book, “Political Ponerology – A Science of Evil for Political Purposes”:
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Time%20for%20change/294
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Time%20for%20change/296
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Time%20for%20change/297

[MissWaverly]

16. Amen, may I add that some of us are "FDR" democrats

We believe in the 4 freedoms, which includes freedom of speech and expression, FDR put it first above all the others.

In the future days, which we seek to make secure, we look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms.

The first is freedom of speech and expression -- everywhere in the world.

The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way -- everywhere in the world.

The third is freedom from want, which, translated into world terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants -- everywhere in the world.

The fourth is freedom from fear, which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor -- anywhere in the world.

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/fdrthefourfreedoms.htm

[Time for change]

32. I love FDR

A couple of years ago I talked about his plans for a 2nd bill of rights:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2848856

If he would have lived through a 4th or 5th term, he might have provided it to us.

[MissWaverly]

33. thanks, I think he understood

It may be a good idea to dust off some of his proposals, I for one would like to see how he planned to put in
a national health care system. His social security program stills survives today despite the attempts by many
know nothings in power to dismantle it.

[H2O Man]

17. Nominated.

Outstanding.

[Time for change]

30. Thank you

[B.S. Lewis]

18. I agree

The difference between lefties and other Americans is not predominantly one of core values.

Most Americans--most people--have similar values to you and I. The difference between a leftist and a swing voter or a mild Republican is, in most cases, a difference of political education. This could be self-education or formal. Formal education does tend to move people to the left, but only because you can't get through four years of school without learning at least a FEW things that are politically relevant (this might just be learning about the absurdity of Intelligent Design from your bio class, since that's a politically relevant issue these days).

When I watch the evening local news, I no longer wonder at how Americans can be so conservative. Hatred for the child rapist in the next county over from you is based on the same values as my contempt for Iraqi child-murdering Bush. There's no difference of values there. Only a difference in how the ratio of time spent thinking critically/researching facts versus time spent consuming corporate news, listening to corporate politicians, and absorbing corporate political priorities.

That's also why I don't judge working people who are fairly conservative. I realize that critical thinking and searching out the truth about what's going on in the world are luxuries that I have in large part because of my middle class background and the amount of free time it affords me. If I was working two full-time minimum wage jobs, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be kicking back with some Noam Chomsky or Howard Zinn when I got home at night! My daily life would furnish me with all the infuriation I needed, I sure wouldn't go seeking it in books about American foreign policy or domestic economic restructuring by businessmen.

I really don't think you can change America through simply changing people's minds. You have to change the institutions that shackle their minds by controlling the flow of information that is readily available to them. But to do this, you need mass support. So it has to be a two-pronged strategy, and you have to take one step forward on one side followed by one step forward on the other. If you neglect institutions in favor of changing public opinion (the reformist temptation) you'll get nowhere, and if you neglect public opinion in favor of changing institutions (the revolutionary temptation) you'll get nowhere.

Actually, that's not true: either way you'll be able to take exactly one step forward. :)

Typing this post has gotten me wondering: who here has read Manufacturing Consent or a similar book? I actually haven't read it (or anything like it that I recall) and I'm wondering if I should bother, given that I already agree with its main point.


P.S. - talk about an epic fail as far as reading comprehension. Anyway, fixt now.

[B.S. Lewis]

19. if anyone read the above post before I edited it

I promise I'm not usually that retarded.

[Psyop Samurai]

23. Excellent post, B.S. Lewis...

Welcome to DU!
:toast:

Yes -- the people's minds and the institutions that shackle them.

I had started to describe that situation as a major "Catch-22" in my earlier post, but deleted it because I thought I was rambling. Now you have addressed it in a way that gives a bare bones conceptual model of how to confront it:

But to do this, you need mass support. So it has to be a two-pronged strategy, and you have to take one step forward on one side followed by one step forward on the other.

I will keep that in mind, and hope that you or others who are able to elaborate on such a strategy will do so.

[Time for change]

25. Great point about how we have the luxury to look into these things and many don’t

That should cause us to approach this with a certain amount of humility. Though, it is also true that many who do have the time choose not to use it for constructive purposes.

The relationship between education and voting is interesting. I’ve looked at polling and found that graduate level education was highly associated with voting for Gore and Kerry over Bush, even though income was highly associated with voting for Bush in both cases. Considering the very strong association between education and income, that is truly amazing.

Welcome to DU :toast:

[Echo In Light]

27. What I get from many people is they are generally left leaning on some issues, however....

Remain grounded in unquestioning servitude toward certain fundamental aspects of rightist propaganda {re matters of phony National $ecurity, for example} which pervades their everyday life vis a vis mainline media ... it's so big, that propaganda effort {including omission, obfuscation, spin, etc} is so enormous, that it's woven into the fabric of the daily round of life for people. Hence they don't actually notice it.

So let's say you're having a discussion with someone who is typically depoliticized, and you can sense that they're left leaning on many social issues, you'll often notice the effects of nationalistic chauvinism/jingoism {irrational attitudes of submission to authority} surface if you begin questioning certain topics.

"The best propaganda is that which, as it were, works invisibly, penetrates the whole of life without the public having any knowledge of the propagandistic initiative." ~ Goebbels

[Time for change]

34. Very good points

The example you use, national security, is probably the biggest manifestation of your point. I have actually not encountered that very much in interactions with people in my own personal life. But it must have a HUGE effect, given how often that excuse is used.

Anyhow, politicians must believe it has a huge effect, or else they wouldn’t use it so much, or cave in to it in the case of otherwise left of center Democrats.

[Echo In Light]

36. Well, with my friends/family, not so much...but with co-workers, or strangers in que at the store...

...definitely.

[texasleo]

37. DU is far left in its incessant political correctness and in its quickness

to blame all that is white, heterosexual, or Christian. At the same time, rushing to defend the actions of those not defined as either of the three.
Not everyone here is like that, obviously, but a very loud majority is. The commonly-held belief that women and minorities are somehow born into victimhood is also attributable to many here.

[Time for change]

38. Wow! I haven't noticed a majority in that category

If a majority of DUers are like that, you ought to have no trouble finding several examples.

[Zhade]

51. Such utter, utter horseshit.

NT!

[Duppers]

40. Very thoughtful post

You....


Thanks!

[Time for change]

45. Thank you.

[Uncle Joe]

43. Kicked and recommended, I agree with your analysis.

Although regarding your last paragraph, sometimes I'm not sure where to draw the line on my passion as I'm afraid not to speak up, lest my concerns be forgotten an or ignored.

Thanks for the thread, Time for change.

P.S. On edit too late to recommend.

[Time for change]

44. Thank you Uncle Joe

It's never easy to know where to draw the line on your passion. I think that often or usually it is best to just let it flow. But it depends on so many circumstances.

I think that it must be especially difficult for Obama. Though I am very hopeful that he will win, and I am very happy about the current polling trend, there is always that possibility that racism will tip the balance. McCain has the luxury of committing numerous gaffes and stupid or false statements of all kinds, and he basically gets a free ride. But one serious blunder by Obama and it could be all over.

[riona]

46. On some issues, I think we are ahead of the public and they will catch up.

But in some cases, I believe there is a fundamentally different mindset. It amazes me how many can virtually ignore those in pain by voting for candidates who boast of slashing helpful programs just so their voters can save a couple of tax dollars. Here is part of an interesting article I read:

"Conservatives are happier than liberals. This according to a 2006 Pew Research Center survey cited in a paper published this month in Psychological Science.

But New York University researchers set out to isolate the reasons why right-wingers would have greater subjective well-being than left-wingers.

They collected data from nearly 1,200 people from the 2000 American National Election Study and found that above the effects of gender, marital status, income, religion and age, the reason for this happiness disparity can be distilled to the separate ideologies of liberals and conservatives.

The authors argue that a conservative belief acts as a psychological buffer in a world of increasing inequality. The idea is that conservatives tend to rationalize inequality as the result of a fair process in a meritocracy, whereas liberals tend to see inequality as inherently unjust".

http://www.sciam.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=BABCDEA5-D180-499B-094168CBE5442468&sc=rss

[Time for change]

49. That study interpretation sounds highly suspect to me

Denial is not a sign of a psychological health.

Maybe they're also in denial about their unhappiness?

[underpants]

47. DU-wise and otherwise

:shrug:

[Disturbed]

48. The RWing has demonized the word "liberal" & Far Left

means anyone that does not click their heels to the RWing.

Far Left used to mean Socialist &/or Communist. The RWing has framed it as a negative to mean anyone that isn't a RWinger. The RWing frames a lot of issues. They are aggressive & believe that Politics is War with no rules.

[defendandprotect]

50. Browsed quickly . . . however . . .

America is a liberal nation --- especially when they understand their stake in issues.

Currently, we have an administration not only fascist but obviously quite out of step

with the Founders, Constitution, Bill of Rights ---

Though a skizophrenic group THEY were -- on the one hand proclaiming "equality for all"

and on the other making a compromise with slavery which proved quite desctructive and

which led to the Civil War which deeply divided the nation.

Of course, the oppression of females, as well --

Native Americans --


Sadly, it doesn't seem to be the fascists in the White House who are so depressing us

these last days and since the very beginning of the Democratic majority ---

SADLY, it is Democrats who are depressing us in their alliance with this fascist and

corrupt, criminal President and VP --

[pretzel4gore]

58. the con is so basic; all it requires is mass merdia to pretend, yawn....

recently, i saw a police spokesman saying about drug raids at a local park, that 'we want the park for use by the local people, and not the druggies' etc. Problem is- many of the local people use drugs, are involved in the underclass of poverty welfare and mental illness etc, but they don't count. The cop spokesman was boldly saying this, in effect 'no blue eyed white males' allowed in this park, it's only for we who aren't blue eyed etc 'and fuck you to hell' giggle. The fact is, disenfranchissing a significant minority of the population is so common few even notice it anymore (though i do, several times a day) AND that is an intentional result of fraud artists operating in a nudge schemeing way while developing public policy as if drug users/law breakers etc do not exist. Just ONE EXAMPLE of this, and i admit it's rather suggestive of a personal interest, ie pornography. It's said the porn movie industry earns money at a 3 to 2 $ ratio compared to mainstream hollywood. And that really really bugs mr pig. It also bugs mr pig that most citizens like to get stoned occassionally- hence the illegality of certain drugs which make yall feel ready (which won't do, re mr pig) to rock. And even at the same time, mr pig cashes in on the legal drug markets (i once worked as security guard at drug company Apotex- and they moved narcotics around in TRANSPORT TRUCKS! the dirty fukking pigs!)
It's a simple fact that the needs of the many trump the privileges of a few, in any common sense society (even the bible says so) but the capitalist system says if the privileges of the few supercede the needs of the many, the needs of the many will be met as a result; indeed, the many poor will become privileged rich too!
Bullshit, the French Revolutionaries pointed out. Our children die of tooth aches! A tiny cut leads to gangrene, cuz there's no goddam medicine, not even drops of whisky. Every year, hundreds of homes are set afire, burning up the infants and tots, because the adults are away in the fields. Fukk you mr pig

[dougolat]

59. implausable deny-ability

The maddening, infuriating and demoralizing aspect is the bland self assured equanimity with which my Repug acquaintances use the talking points they got from Rush, (ins)Hannity, and the corPIRATE media to answer all questions!
Don Siegelman- "It's just one little incident, so what?" (not- the tip of the politicized D.O.J. iceberg)
Election Irregularities- "A few little problems, you're just a sore loser" (not- a critical blow to the legitimacy of government)
The lies leading into Iraq- "Democrats thought so too!" ( not- an all fronts media blitz that censored the voices of reason and misled all)
The anthrax attacks- "IT was terrorists!and it's old news" (not- abold move to drum up hysteria and intimidate Congress, which suceeded, and when it couldn't be pinned on a Muslim, because the investigation leads to administration cronies, it was hushed and buried)
The put options- "just a chance blip in the normal activities, no big deal" (not- yet more evidence buried by a "secret" classification)
Torture- "Those guys want to kill us!" (not- abandoning the moral high ground, our principles, and the rule of law for bad info, turning friends against us, increased recruitment for our foes, and further endangering our present and future troops! hearts-and-minds be damned)
Tax-cuts for the rich- "yeah, taxes are bad; trickle-down, etc." (not- making the rich richer hurts everybody and degrades the infrastructure)
Civilian casualty count- "what do you expect? -it's war!" (not- a statistic that invalidates all claims to be helping Iraqis and Afghans)
Etc., etc., etc
"oh no,' they say, " if any of this were criminal, we would have heard much more about it; since we haven't' you must be an excitable alarmist!"
This is what lack of accountability has granted the right; I call it "implausible deni-ability!"
The partisans are well versed in the party line, but the ordinary people trying to avoid homelessness have heard little else- even so, a great many of them say "The politicians and government are just out to screw us!"
Except for the 15 Senators against FISA immunity, and a handful in in the House, it looks like they're absolutely correct.
"keep hope alive!" "Yes We Can!" and "faint heart never won fair lady" OK, Barak has a good approach to swift-boating (and good people!) so, thanks again TFC.

[Time for change]

61. "Implausable deny-ability" -- I like that

Lot's of great examples there, dougolat.

[spag68]

60. I guess I'm screwed.

I'm pretty sure I'm to the left of DU.