HOW DARE WE STAND BY AND WATCH THIS HAPPEN!

[kwenu]

How is it that a nation such as ours that proclaims itself "Leader of the Free World" can stand by and watch the pissing on democracy that is happening in Zimbabwe. These people have bravely gone to the polls to vote out an evil dictator and his cronies and the best that the U.S. is willing to do is say "shame on you." Here we stand allegedly trying to bring democratic principles to people in Iraq at the point of a gun who could just as easily take it or leave it behind while Zimbabweans who stood up on their OWN ACCORD to yell and vote for freedom get basically ignored. These brave people are being slaughtered and hacked to death for voting their conscience. Do you get it? They are being killed for VOTING!!!!!

Why are we standing by? Is it because these people are Black that we choose to stare at our feet and pretend that this abomination isn't happening? All of a sudden our government now thinks the UN is the best way to address an international crisis? Imagine that.

We are not the leader of the free world. We are a bunch of self-serving hypocrites with conditional principles.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i4kT7pJlnuzY_vpKdTACcQYIPcvQD91IL48O0

[AndyTiedye]

1. Zimbabwe Doesn't Have Any Oil, And Israel Doesn't Feel Threatened By Them

[JuniperLea]

5. You are absolutely correct...

Sadly.

[sharesunited]

6. What does Israel have to do with it? Zimbabwe is at the far end of Africa.

Your anti-Israel agenda stands out as an off-topic sore thumb.

[RC]

10. Israel is quite on topic here.

[The Stranger]

49. Oh please. That isn't going to fly here.

But welcome to DU.

[kwenu]

7. Could someone remind me of why we invaded Bosnia? Is there oil in Bosnia?

[sharesunited]

11. There are Caucasians in Bosnia. (Lightbulb goes on.)

[AndyTiedye]

16. The Mad Cowboys Were Not Running the Show Back Then

[blindpig]

31. Here's why

Yugoslavia was built on an idea, namely that the Southern Slavs would not remain weak and divided peoples, squabbling among themselves and easy prey to outside imperial interests. Together they could form a substantial territory capable of its own economic development. Indeed, after World War II, socialist Yugoslavia became a viable nation and an economic success. Between 1960 and 1980 it had one of the most vigorous growth rates: a decent standard of living, free medical care and education, a guaranteed right to a job, one-month vacation with pay, a literacy rate of over 90 percent, and a life expectancy of 72 years. Yugoslavia also offered its multi-ethnic citizenry affordable public transportation, housing, and utilities, with a not-for-profit economy that was mostly publicly owned. This was not the kind of country global capitalism would normally tolerate. Still, socialistic Yugoslavia was allowed to exist for 45 years because it was seen as a nonaligned buffer to the Warsaw Pact nations.

The dismemberment and mutilation of Yugoslavia was part of a concerted policy initiated by the United States and the other Western powers in 1989. Yugoslavia was the one country in Eastern Europe that would not voluntarily overthrow what remained of its socialist system and install a free-market economic order. In fact, Yugoslavs were proud of their postwar economic development and of their independence from both the Warsaw Pact and NATO. The U.S. goal has been to transform the Yugoslav nation into a Third-World region, a cluster of weak right-wing principalities with the following characteristics:

incapable of charting an independent course of self-development;
a shattered economy and natural resources completely accessible to multinational corporate exploitation, including the enormous mineral wealth in Kosovo;
an impoverished, but literate and skilled population forced to work at subsistence wages, constituting a cheap labor pool that will help depress wages in western Europe and elsewhere;
dismantled petroleum, engineering, mining, fertilizer, and automobile industries, and various light industries, that offer no further competition with existing Western producers.

U.S. policymakers also want to abolish Yugoslavia’s public sector services and social programs — for the same reason they want to abolish our public sector services and social programs. The ultimate goal is the privatization and Third Worldization of Yugoslavia, as it is the Third Worldization of the United States and every other nation. In some respects, the fury of the West’s destruction of Yugoslavia is a backhanded tribute to that nation's success as an alternative form of development, and to the pull it exerted on neighboring populations both East and West.

In the late 1960s and 1970s, Belgrade’s leaders, not unlike the Communist leadership in Poland, sought simultaneously to expand the country’s industrial base and increase consumer goods, a feat they intended to accomplish by borrowing heavily from the West. But with an enormous IMF debt came the inevitable demand for “restructuring,” a harsh austerity program that brought wage freezes, cutbacks in public spending, increased unemployment, and the abolition of worker-managed enterprises. Still, much of the economy remained in the not-for-profit public sector, including the Trepca mining complex in Kosovo, described in the New York Times as “war’s glittering prize . . . the most valuable piece of real estate in the Balkans . . . worth at least $5 billion” in rich deposits of coal, lead, zinc, cadmium, gold, and silver.1

That U.S. leaders have consciously sought to dismember Yugoslavia is not a matter of speculation but of public record. In November 1990, the Bush administration pressured Congress into passing the 1991 Foreign Operations Appropriations Act, which provided that any part of Yugoslavia failing to declare independence within six months would lose U.S. financial support. The law demanded separate elections in each of the six Yugoslav republics, and mandated U.S. State Department approval of both election procedures and results as a condition for any future aid. Aid would go only to the separate republics, not to the Yugoslav government, and only to those forces whom Washington defined as “democratic,” meaning right-wing, free-market, separatist parties.

http://www.michaelparenti.org/yugoslavia.html

[Pavulon]

42. Having been a member of the "invasion party"

bent on stealing resources from the...

Jesus fucking Christ. We were pulled into that mess because Europe could not clean up a mess in their own back yard. This is the same place where WW1 started.

There was outright murder of civilians, government killings, ethnic mass murders and a general situation that made the possibility of war spreading outside the area possible.

NATO under UN mandate had a very direct mandate to follow. My time there was more like the traditional National Guard response we would have to weather emergencies than a traditional combat and combat support role. Dealing with demilling militia groups and various construction projects and cleanups were the norm.

There is plenty of historical reference from wikipedia to library of congress covering this topic.

That article is the biggest pile of dog shit I have ever read.

[Bandit]

32. When did "we" invade Bosnia?

Nato launched an air attack within Kosovo, but I don't recall any US Invasion on Bosnia..How many US Divisions did we use, and How long did this "invasion" last?

[Hannah Bell]

73. here's one answer:

"For starters...abundant mineral reserves... But this is merely the “small change” of imperialist calculations. The immediate material gains that might be plundered from Kosovo are dwarfed by the far greater potential for enrichment that beckons in regions further to the east...

...the dismantling of the USSR has created a power vacuum in Eastern Europe, Russia and Central Asia that makes a new division of the world inevitable. The principal significance of Yugoslavia, at this critical juncture, is that it lies on the Western periphery of a massive swathe of territory into which the major world powers aim to expand...

...The greatest untapped oil reserves in the world are located in the former Soviet republics bordering the Caspian Sea (Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan). These resources are now being divided among the major capitalist countries. This is the fuel that is feeding renewed militarism and must lead to new wars of conquest... If the estimates are borne out, the region will become a petroleum producer comparable in scope to Iran or Iraq.

Noteworthy is an article written by Zbigniew Brzezinski, the former National Security chief under Carter, which was published in the September/October 1997 issue of Foreign Affairs. It is entitled “A Geostrategy for Asia.”

“America's emergence as the sole global superpower now makes an integrated and comprehensive strategy for Eurasia imperative.”

“In volatile Eurasia, the immediate task is to ensure that no state or combination of states gains the ability to expel the United States or even diminish its decisive role.” This situation he describes as a “benign American hegemony.”

...For reasons both of world strategy and control over natural resources, the US is determined to secure for itself a dominant role in the former Soviet sphere...."

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/stat-m24.shtml

[anonymous171]

14. Sums it up nicely. nt

[tbyg52]

27. Bingo. US policy in a nutshell. nt

[Vilis Veritas]

2. Sadly, we are complacent in our comfort...

We got nintendo, playstation, nascar, beer, non-stop 24/7 cable, malls, swimming pools, ymca, schools, lunch programs, welfare, medicaid, social security, NFL, AHL, NBA, AMA, FDA...etc...

The list is so long that somewhere almost every human in the US can find solace in something...almost...and that makes most people complacent...

just my opinion...

saddlesore

[lligrd]

3. Why Are We Standing By While Our Own Elections Are Stolen

and our Constitution torn to shreds? Can't help others when we can't even help ourselves.

[noiretextatique]

12. and how can bush speak about election fraud?

without sounding like a complete liar and hypocrite?

[malaise]

19. And therein lies the problem

Most of the planet now laughs when either Britain or the US speaks about atrocities or violations of human rights by anyone else.
There was a program here discussing England's attempts to kick Zimbabwe out of world cricket and cricket fans called in and said Blair and Bush are the biggest terrorists on the planet. Most of the callers hated Mugabe, but were laughing at the hypocrisy. They mentioned the deaths in Iraq, the illegal war, the 2000 elections and a host of other things including the theft of African lands by the British.

[bdamomma]

20. why is question is correct.

why is everyone just standing by while they take everything away from us, aren't our backs pushed in a corner enough? Why? do we just scoff at POWERS IN NUMBERS, we did come together in Nov 2006, why can't we push back harder, or are we "Good Americans"? and we have our toys to keep us distracted, the country is unrecognizable now, and to give these thugs the satisfaction that they have stepped all over us is not right.

[sharesunited]

4. There is no oil there, and Tsvangirai is a trade unionist.

[spanone]

8. points to the phony bu$h* push for democracy....

[papapi]

9. How right you are.

[Karenina]

13. I agree with your last sentence.

You might consider cleaning your own kitchen, bathroom and lawn first.

[boomerbust]

15. READ MY LIPS

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< NO OIL

[On the Road]

17. We Allow Worse Things Than This to Go All the Time

I mean, Liberia is a country that the US founded, for God's sake, and the whole country tore itself apart while everybody shrugged. Sierra Leone, the Congo -- there is an endless list of massacres and civil war that nobody want to touch.

This is not to disagree with the sentiment on Zimbabwe -- at the very least, it is worth trying threats or diplomacy. But it is par for the course.

[kwenu]

18. If that's the course we're on we need to make that clear so there's no confusion about who we are.

Or what we stand for.

[Karenina]

22. Who you are and what you $tand for

are quite clear to all.

[Vilis Veritas]

28. Is it really we the people that allow this to continue?

We the people have not governed for a long time...Corporations govern. I understand that you are probably referring to the big Gov WE, not the little gov, we the people...please correct me if I am wrong.

We the people do things like community service, volunteer, donate and some people even pitch in and help by joining the peace corps like my cousin, while WE the government go to war for oil and to settle a personal vendetta of America's premiere Fascist Family the Shrubs. However, without the support of the government, there is very little we the people can do to force real change, in my opinion.

Perhaps it is those countries vast and deep resources that keep the western governments from really helping.

ECONOMY
Properly managed, Zimbabwe's wide range of resources should enable it to support sustained economic growth. The country has an important percentage of the world's known reserves of metallurgical-grade chromite. Other commercial mineral deposits include coal, platinum, asbestos, copper, nickel, gold, and iron ore. However, for the country to benefit from these mineral deposits, it must attract foreign direct investment.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5479.htm

Maybe another type of Shock Doctrine is in play here...perhaps the goal is to let the countries destroy themselves and then go in and pick up the pieces and the resources...when the time is ripe.

I have lots of questions and very few real answers...

saddlesore

[On the Road]

30. The "We" Was From the Original Poster

In on sense, no, it's not we the people, but we as a state. This is how the US behaves.

However, if the US did begin to intervene in African conflicts, especially those when nothing but human rights were at stake, you can bet there would be a hue and cry from a lot of ordinary people here.

[kwenu]

34. Yes. I said WE. As in WE the people who vote or who don't care to vote.

Either way it affects who gets in office and makes policy. Where was the cry over going into Bosnia? The Black elephant is sitting in the room again I see.

[Vilis Veritas]

35. Your grievance is not with me.

saddlesore

[kwenu]

37. No. I have no grievance with you at all.

I am pointing out though that we can't just say oh well it's my government not me when we put those people into office. A lot of people like to say that but it's just deflection of responsibility to a strawman to avoid dealing with the problem. Again, it's not about you but I just want to make a point.

[On the Road]

44. That is True. However,

a democratic government that supposedly supports human rights should not need to wait for street protests to take some kind of action, especially about a country most people are barely aware of.

[Vilis Veritas]

36. Thanks for the clarification

I agree.

saddlesore

[Fire Walk With Me]

21. Darfur, too.

And the genocide that is occuring against the Iraqi oil-owners (um, people) is also a travesty.

[SergeyDovlatov]

23. Leader of the free world needs to focus first on its own shortcoming before

trying to impose its vision of democracy on other people.

[bonito]

24. Honorable people are not in control n/t

[Super Soaker Sniper]

25. What do you propose

the US do in Zimbabwe?

[Dr. Strange]

52. Remove Mugabe and make sure the properly elected leader is put in place.

But do it peacefully with no military or imperial interference from western hegemony. Is that too much to ask?

[Karenina]

55. How 'bout removing *dimson and his dick fer starters?

:rofl: Amis just crack me up!!! :crazy:

[Dr. Strange]

59. Um...

I'm not touching his dick with a twenty-foot pole. You're on your own, there.

:scared:

[Karenina]

65. BWHAHAHAHAHA!!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[AZ Criminal JD]

68. It is too much to ask

Dictators don't go peacefully. So unless you are proposing sending in 100,000 Americans for another war, there is no other solution.

[The Straight Story]

26. Well, Canada could do something. Switzerland, et al

seems like no one really cares.

[mmonk]

29. We no longer represent "the free world". We are in life for a profit.

[riverdeep]

33. We're atrocitied out.

From the atrocities here in the Fatherland, er, Homeland, to Darfur, Iraq, Afghanistan, Myanamar, Israel/Palestine, etc. We've seen so much death and carnage and just bad behavior over these years, we are numb. Atrocity is like the sound of the air conditioner in your building. This background hum you stop noticing.

[kwenu]

40. That's convenient but not an acceptable excuse in my opinion.

[keep_it_real]

38. Africa needs to form into a Union of States

Like the United States and the EU and even South America has formed a Monetary fund, a move toward a South American Union. If Africa had a national government like the US and EU with a national army or guard they could dispatch forces to make sure elections are legitimate.

[kwenu]

39. Such a union has been in existence since 1963.

It's current form, the African Union succeeded the Organization of African Unity in 2002. However, it does not have a standing army and neither does the EU.

I don't have a problem with the implicit message that Africa should take care of its own problems as long as the same standard is applied to Europe, Asia, the Middle East, Latin America and the Caribbean. That is clearly NOT the case when it comes to U.S. foreign policy and I certainly will keep harping on the double standard as long as it exists.

[tuckessee]

41. What do you want to do?

Invade and turn it into another Iraq?

Keep your military to your self. They don't spread democracy, they spread death & displacement.

[malaise]

43. Here's why

http://www.ecis.com/~alizard/vote2000.html
<snip>
1. Imagine that we read of an election occurring anywhere in the third world in which the self-declared winner was the son of the former prime minister and that former prime minister was himself the former head of that nation's secret police (CIA).

2. Imagine that the self-declared winner lost the popular vote but won based on some old colonial holdover (electoral college) from the nation's pre-democracy past.

3. Imagine that the self-declared winner's victory' turned on disputed votes cast in a province governed by his brother!

4. Imagine that the poorly drafted ballots of one district, a district heavily favoring the self-declared winner's opponent, led thousands of voters to vote for the wrong candidate.

5. Imagine that that members of that nation's most despised caste, fearing for their lives/livelihoods, turned out in record numbers to vote in near-universal opposition to the self-declared winner's candidacy.

6. Imagine that hundreds of members of that most-despised caste were intercepted on their way to the polls by state police operating under the authority of the self-declared winner's brother.

[kwenu]

53. Question: How many people were murdered in that entire fiasco?

The answer is zero. That's the difference and that's what demands intervention.

[Karenina]

56. You, my dear, are totally infected with

Amurikkkan Exsepshanalysm! :rofl:

[kwenu]

57. Instead of making it a crude joke why don't you explain yourself with some intelligence.

I don't find America to be extremely exceptional just damned lucky. I do find it to be teeming with idiots who are raising bigger idiots and that applies to traditional conservatives and liberals.

[leftofthedial]

45. Zim-fucking-babwe? Are you kidding?

We've been standing by and doing nothing as democracy has been pissed on, shat on, mocked and used for toilet paper RIGHT HERE in every square inch of this frigging country. Why would we give a lukewarm squirt about a country in Africa?

[kwenu]

47. Ummn. Because no one is hacking off the arms of a person who didn't vote for your candidate here.

Because we're supposed to be decent people who believe in democracy and should support the principles of freedom?

Because thinking like yours explains the incident where an old guy who got hit by a car laid in the middle of the street with cars going around him and people walked by talking on cell phones doing nothing to help.

I would hope that if you found yourself in a situation where your life was seriously in jeopardy that you would be helped by people who clearly DON'T think the way you do. Not because you deserve it but merely because you're a fellow human.

[Cleita]

46. Because our evil dictator agrees with their evil dictator.

If we didn't still have a shred of democracy still working here, what is happening in Zimbabwe would be happening here in November. Never forget Bush saying that if we were a dictatorship, it would be a lot easier, providing he was the dictator.

However, I don't know if we would intervene anyway if Gore or Kerry were President. We have a history of ignoring genocides in African countries where we don't have any corporate, colonial interests.

[cornermouse]

48. We've done it before.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/18714.htm

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack

[cornermouse]

50. dupe.

[spanone]

51. humans are truly flawed. we are selective in our outrages and rarely consistent

[cobalt1999]

54. Because it about damn time we stopped trying to police the world

We need to get out of that business and cut our defense spending in half. If the world wants some outrage fixed, then let a large coalition of countries (we can play a small part) get involved.

The last thing this country needs is to be getting involved in anything outside our own borders.

[kwenu]

58. Glad you weren't president when the Nazis were collectively running about.

That makes about as much sense as saying crime is okay as long as it happens to somebody else. It will get to you sooner or later.

[EFerrari]

61. We've policed the world like we've taken democracy to Iraq. n /t

[KansDem]

60. You mean what happened to "Operation Zimbabwe Freedom?"

I think AndyTiedye summarized it nicely in post no. 1.

Oh, and why we're at it, what happened to "Operation Burma Freedom" too?

[kwenu]

62. I don't know. Did they have elections in Burma?

And did the people show up en masse in Burma to throw the bums out? If so, they deserve some support but I don't recall that happening. Can you recognize the distinction? There definitely is one.

[readmoreoften]

63. Do you read the news? Did you see the thousands of monks in the streets in Burma?

And the thousands of monks who were executed and their bodies floating in rivers all along the border? It was all over the news for weeks.

[kwenu]

66. Actually no. I didn't see that. Could you source me to a story on thousands of executed monks?

And while you're at it, help me by adding some clarity to your post. Assuming that the answer to both of your questions is yes, what is your point?

[LWolf]

64. How can we let it happen?

Perhaps because we can't get democracy off of life-support here at home.

[kwenu]

67. If many of the responses here are representative, democracy is indeed dead .

And everyone of you played a part in its murder. Frankly, I don't know why some of you posters are on Democratic Underground because many of the posters damn sure don't support democratic principles. Frankly, some would be happier on Moderate Republican Mainstream.Com. I don't know if it exists but I'm sure these posters could get it started.

I am reminded that this is exactly how Jews got sent to concentration camps while most German citizens went about their business as if it wasn't their problem. Pathetic.

[Amimnoch]

69. Exactly what is it you propose?

Really, you speak passionately, but exactly what is your answer?

I seriously doubt many, if any at all in this thread voted for shrub in 2000, or 2004.. I'd venture to say that most, if not all supported the candidates that lost.. much as I did. I'd venture to say that many did more than voted. I'd be willing to bet that many contributed with more than their vote.. some spending time at meetups, rallies, phone banking, donating $$ that at least a few probably couldn't easily afford.

In 2000 I supported PRESIDENT Gore (even though the SCOTUS stole the election, he WAS the elected president!) from beginning to end. Phone banked, donated money, attended rallies.

In 2004 I supported Edwards until Kerry was the nominee.. then I supported Kerry.

For this primary, I supported Dennis, then Clinton, and now I support Obama.

I'm sure I keep great company here, and I'm sure many of the people you are chastising have done similar to some degree.

I use my voting and supporting power to the best of my capability.. but I, nor anyone else here can help it if idiots still outnumber us, out maneuver us.. use slander against our candidates successfully.. use shady legal process to steal an election.

Really, exactly what is it you propose we do?

[kwenu]

75. I propose...

That we lead the movement to freeze any and all international assets and privileges of Mugabe and members of his government. I propose that we suspend aid and support of ANY government that provides support to Zimbabwe's government. I propose we actively interfere with any source that provides weapons or armor to Zimbabwe's government. I propose we send the SOS and military advisers to meet with the African Union and make it clear that the U.S. stands with the AU and we will provide the tactical military support and aid necessary to carry out the AU's mandate of a transition government until a free and fair election can be held for the runoff of the presidency. African Unity forces should be put on the ground to ensure stability during and after the electoral process. And I propose that Mugabe assuming he loses a free and fair election be exiled but that is a matter for the transition government.

Bush's stupidity regarding Iraq should not make us hesitant to do the right thing when the people of a democratic nation have voted and are calling for our help to enforce the peoples decision. Unlike Iraq, the people of Zimbabwe have been quite clear and continue to be open regarding their dissatisfaction of Zimbabwe's now illegitimate government even though they are being terrorized and murdered. They voted on their own. They weren't made to vote because the U.S. thought it was a good idea. The Iraqis didn't invite us, we invited ourselves. Note the difference.


Or. I could be like you guys and say "we sympathize, we had "chad" problems in Florida and a lack of voting machines in Ohio. Those silly Africans. What can you do? So sorry."

Sitting on your behind is no way to get something fixed and I'm pretty confident we are on our way to setting things right here in the U.S. Just because we aren't perfect here doesn't mean we should ignore those who are truly struggling with DEADLY oppression and are merely calling for assistance. It is abysmally self-centered to compare the U.S. and Zimbabwe and call the situation equal.

Oh yeah. Happy Independence Day!

[AZ Criminal JD]

70. Invoke the Nazis to try and increase the drama

Always the sign of someone who is losing an argument.

[LWolf]

71. I hear you. n/t

[Hekate]

72. Because we let it happen here, only without the bloodshed? nt

[zorahopkins]

74. Diplomacy

Diplomacy should be given the opportunity to work.

The United Nations should be given every opportunity to investigate the issue, and to come up with alternatives, and a possible course of action.

If the UN sees fit, it should perhaps gather a coalition of peace keepers to ensure that justice is carried out.

Diplomacy is always preferable to anything else.