Phoenix Country Club-Nice Spot to Eat After Golf, but Women Are Barred

[babylonsister]

Nice Spot to Eat After Golf, but Women Are Barred

By JENNIFER STEINHAUER
Published: June 28, 2008


PHOENIX — When the men of the Phoenix Country Club saw their feeding ways in peril, they did not tarry. Some sent nasty e-mail messages, hectored players on the fairway and, for good measure, urinated on a fellow club member’s pecan tree.

The targets of their ire were the women, and some men, who have dared to speak up against the club’s policy of forbidding women in the men’s grill room, a center of power dining in Phoenix.

Barbara Van Sittert, one of those women, said her husband, Logan, 73, has been heckled while playing golf and once found his locker defaced.

“They hooted and hollered at him and called his wife a whore,” said Mrs. Van Sittert, 72, a petite, quiet woman with an elegant white bob. “It was not warm and fuzzy.”

Charges of sexism against private golf clubs are not uncommon; the Augusta National Golf Club in Georgia, where the Masters is held each year, does not permit women to be members.

But here in Arizona, where the governor, secretary of state, chief justice and Senate minority leader are women, it has rankled more than a few women that nonmember men have more rights than paying female members at the Phoenix Country Club, a century-old fixture in the city’s social and business life where it costs tens of thousands of dollars a year to belong.

more...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/28/us/28countryclub.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all&adxnnlx=1214674956-T+5N1pJWFdTTvlkRQ71mwg

[nomorenomore08]

1. Stupid. Like a clubhouse with a "no girls allowed" sign out front.

:eyes:

[Fredda Weinberg]

2. Not stupid at all. Keeps the best jobs for the "country squires"

I just went through a bullshit IRL episode, but that's the way it is girls. No, you can't do it in "high heels", but you can succeed. Just be prepared to watch the boys go where you can't ... that's the way it is 2008.

[BeFree]

15. Why women want to...

....follow men around to their clubs escapes me.

It must be the money. Leave men alone. And quit taking their money.

We need to keep a separation of men and women. Viva la difference!!
It makes the getting together time so much better.

[Fredda Weinberg]

21. When men are making business deals? Excuse me, but I'm a professional too n/t

[mrreowwr_kittty]

24. Oh but that's "taking men's money" according to the idiot you're responding to. nt

[Fredda Weinberg]

26. Usually, it's family money and a matriarch controls it. That's where the

hostility originates. I'm cool ... but the system must adapt to modern times.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

29. So you're okay with the patriarchy and dynasties as long as you get a nice token spot?

[Fredda Weinberg]

33. Me? I walked away from hereditary privileges myself, but IRL, I'm

surrounded by others who, for whatever reason, can't or won't. I'm okay with my life, but I've made relationships worth more than wealth.

Token spot? I'm a female CTO with a successful track record. Rare enough, but I've always been judged on my work, not my peculiar gender. Heck, I've settled one discrimination suit (I was trying to get African Americans trained as techs, not just drivers & delivery men) and could have filed a bunch more.

But I'm not hostile to those who feel held hostage. It's not their fault they were born rich.

[LanternWaste]

45. Replace the word you used "woman" with the word "black".

Replace the word you used "woman" with the word "black", or with the word "Jew"

Yup-- sounds just as bad,,,

edited: spelling

[Rage for Order]

7. I know. It's ridiculous

It's like http://www.curves.com/">this discriminatory club. So outdated.

[kestrel91316]

10. If you are going to get all snarky about how put upon men are by being

excluded from Curves, remember this: it is owned by a RW fundie whackjob MAN.

[Rage for Order]

12. Why does that matter?

What difference does it make who owns it? The issue is whether a particular business discriminates based on gender, and both Curves and the Phoenix Country Club do. Curves says no men at all, ever. PCC says women are welcome except in one dining area.

[Scout]

37. women who PAY A HEFTY FEE for their memberships are not allowed

into a place in the club where men who aren't even MEMBERS can go, and you see nothing wrong with that?

Are you living in Pleasantville or something?

[kestrel91316]

39. Nah. He's just a misogynist whining about the poor wittle boys

who can't join Curves.

[nomorenomore08]

27. I think the difference is that Curves isn't used for important business/political functions.

On a superficial level, you may have a point, but I don't think any men are being significantly impacted by not being allowed to work out at Curves. Whereas the "boys only" aspect of the country club dining room disadvantages female professionals who might want to "power lunch" there.

[alarimer]

30. They have plenty of other places to work out as well.

Around here, there's a gym on every corner.

Usually a community has ONE country club where all the movers and shakers go.

[Rage for Order]

57. In Phoenix, there's a golf club on every corner

And a number of them are VERY nice.

[anigbrowl]

63. Well, why not?

I'm not defending the men-only golf club, but in the meantime there's nothing to prevent women using women-only clubs as a base for other activities like business development. It's well established that men and women have rather different socialization patterns and it's tedious for people to have to adapt to a mixed model at all times. Having no single-sex social groupings would be just as bad as having no mixed social groupings, I think. Business is a competitive environment so I don't see any reason not to set up competitive networking opportunities.

[Scout]

67. well, it's not going to happen at Curves--have you ever been to one?

anyway, separate women-only clubs is not the answer.

Also, part of the point at this club is that women who ARE MEMBERS and pay well for that membership are not allowed to go where non-member men are allowed to go. It's not that they can't be members of the club.

[anigbrowl]

69. I don't find it any more unlikely than at a Golf club...

not that I care about Curves specifically. And I notice there are a number of women-only networking organizations and busines clubs etc., which suggests to me that their members derive some value from them, even if it's purely social.

[Scout]

74. then you've never been to Curves ....

it's a room with exercise equipment and a bathroom. No lockers, no showers, no changing rooms, no restaurants, no bar, no cafe.

And how are the women going to conduct business deals with MEN while they are socializing and networking in their little clubs?

[alarimer]

28. I doubt many business deals are done at Curves.

That's the real problem with these exclusive country clubs. Women who might otherwise be involved in these business deals are left out.

As for Curves, I hope the guy goes bankrupt; he is a fundy wackjob.

[Rage for Order]

58. The women wouldn't be invited anyway

Let's say that they allow women to eat in the male-only dining area. Do you honestly think the men would say to a woman, "Well, we were going to negotiate this high profile business deal without you, but since you're allowed to eat in the dining room now why don't you pull your chair over and join us"? Of course not. The people who originally were going to be included in the business deal will still be the ones who are included. The only thing that will change is the location of the meeting.

[Scout]

36. yeah, lots of high-finance going on there, everyone is just clamoring to get in! n/t

[Neshanic]

60. You're being sarcastic? That place is the center of Phoenix politics, power and money.

[Scout]

61. I was talking about Curves....

i don't think there's any high finance or business meetings going on there.

[anigbrowl]

64. There won't be until someone starts it, will there?

My other half is part of a women's networking group and finds it useful, it doesn't bother me none.

[skooooo]

3. Is this the year 1850 or something??

[parasim]

4. Sometimes i think times haven't changed at all...

[tanyev]

5. But I'm sure they must have a tall, thin black guy with a beautiful date,

holding a martini and a cigarette, standing against the wall making snide comments about everyone who passes by.

[TahitiNut]

6. "Well, at least I don't wear make-up like a trolley, you country club!"

John McC*nt would feel free to belly up to the trough, there. :puke:

[Tikki]

8. Must be because women are dangerous to your health...

like smoking.


Tikki

[kestrel91316]

9. I would never knowingly associate with anyone who belonged to a club

that deliberately excluded women like this. Or blacks. Or Jews.

Sounds like a little Amish-style shunning might be in order - treat them like pariahs.

[Coexist]

11. why a tournament of note is allowed at Augusta

is one of the great mysteries to me.

[Fredda Weinberg]

23. And if that was professional suicide? Get real, please n/t

[asdjrocky]

13. Just love it when rich assholes show their true colors.

It continues to be a sad sick world.

[Super Soaker Sniper]

14. No Organization or Club Should as a Policy Exclude Women, But...

I do beleive that there are someplaces where guys should be able to be guys and women should just except those places as they are or just not go. Gentlemen's Clubs, for one.

My motorcycle mechanic's place is another. While he is a magician with anything on two wheels with a motor, he has a different clientel that the big dealerships. The people that frequent his business are guys who are into the riding part of motorcycling, not the posing. Guys who ride at the track or dragstrip. Gearheads. We not only take our bikes to his shop to have them worked on or tuned, but to hang out. There are boobie posters up. Conversation is pretty raunchy and the language quite colorful. That is why we like it. Women do not frequent his place of business very much. Another reason we go there. Guys need a place like this sometimes. Our mechanic does not keep women out, but if they do go there, no changes are going to be made for them.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

19. Yes, it's very important for men to have places to bond with other men.

Where they can also reinforce to each other that women are nothing but walking fuckholes. :eyes:

[PassingFair]

25. LOL...

The old "separate but Fuckholes" adage.

It will never go away.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

32. Oh but it's just their way of letting us know how much they like us!

When we're fucking them and picking up their dirty socks.

[PassingFair]

34. I know!

The "fuck-hole" part is the COMPLIMENT!!!

At least they have a USE for them.

They can wash their own socks, and they
know it.

[AZ Criminal JD]

41. You must live a bitter miserable life.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

42. Yes, if I'd just surrender to my god given role I'd be so much happier! nt

[AZ Criminal JD]

53. I hope you don't surrender to anything you don't want.

But reading your posts doesn't indicate a healthy attitude. But if you have a good relationship then good luck to everything.

[PassingFair]

44. WTF?

Because your posts reveal how supremely HAPPY you are?

Enjoy your exclusion and derision!

:hi:

[AZ Criminal JD]

52. Honey, If there is one thing I'm not, it's that I'm excluded.

[Super Soaker Sniper]

40. Hey...

Don't drag me kickng and screaming to Sex and the City and I won't drag you down to my bike shop. :)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

43. Oh yes.

One Sex and the City movie makes it all equal now. :eyes:

[Super Soaker Sniper]

56. There was a successful series before that.

I tried watching it. No one ever got shot and the only thing that ever blew up on that show was a bunch of relationships. At least from what I could see through the swirling estrogen fog. :)

I do not know why you are taking this so serious. I am being facetious about the whole thing. Guy humor, you know. Maybe I should stop now. I'm on a roll and I may say something about someone having too much ass and not enough skirt or what not.

[Paladin]

31. Gee. A DU Gun Nut Supporting Another Right-Wing Position

How completely unsurprising. Bet I can guess what you think about home schooling and smoke-free restarants....

[nomorenomore08]

38. Like the guy who mentioned Curves, I think he was comparing apples and oranges.

Although he did make the point that sometimes the places people are barred from (either officially or de facto) are places they wouldn't care for anyway. Certainly there are places where women congregate, and have conversations men may not be comfortable with. And like the "guy" bike shop mentioned above, they aren't breaking any laws in doing so.

[Super Soaker Sniper]

55. Since when is exercisinga Constitutional Ammendment

a Right Wing Position? The Second Ammendment should have equal relevance to any other. What do I think about home schooling? If a parent is stuck in a horrible school district, why not? Not that it should be taken lightly but a parent should have his kid's future as a first priority. There is this thing called "liberty" that was quite coveted by the founders of our country. Liberty as in one could make his own choices for himself and his family without the government making those choices for them.

[Ignis]

62. By "liberty" you really mean "school vouchers," right? (nt)

:eyes:

[pt22]

65. Better order up some asbestos siding for that joint...and some underwear too.

I can see the smoke from here!
:D

[Runcible Spoon]

75. wow aren't you just a charmer.

and for what it's worth, I know PLENTY of women gearheads that would wipe up the asphalt with your ignorance.

Guessing you weren't breastfed?

[Me.]

16. Seriously?

Peeing on a tree for revenge? What are they, 12? And why would any woman sponsor an event she can’t fully participate in?

snip
“Women at the club are not permitted to have lunch in the men’s grill room with their husbands after a round of golf; they have been barred from trophy ceremonies after tournaments, even ones they have sponsored, and may not participate in one of the most sacred rituals of the men’s grill room — sealing a deal over a beer with a client.”cont…

snip
“As teenage boys saunter into the sumptuously appointed men’s grill room, their mothers are relegated to the ladies’ grill, down the hall with a hot plate, some card tables and no bar. The club also has a formal dining room, where men and women are welcome, but it is closed between meals and is not a spot to get a drink.” Cont…

snip
“The office’s investigation, according to a copy of its findings, noted the inadequacy of the women’s facility, while listing the lopsided benefits of the men’s: three high-definition televisions, a buffet and a bar, and gorgeous views of the course. (The office would not comment; parties in a civil rights determination have 30 days to work out their differences privately.)” cont…

[saracat]

17. Until about 3 mos ago, and only because of price, the Maricopa County Democratic

Nucleus Club, the fund raising arm of the Maricopa County Democrats, had its monthly luncheon at the Phoenix Country Club. All the presidential candidates and most democrats of note spoke there. AG Terry Goddard spoke there many times. Janet Napolitano and Dennis Burke were both on the Board of Nucleus and met for those meetings. Janet was chair when she was AG( I think may have been Fed atty then) ) Our Governor spoke there on multiple occasions. I was a Nucleus member for several years. I guess it proves the Dems really didn't care about sexism, or it wasn't an issue. I did not know about the policy at all. I would not have joined had I known.
Nucleus is now based at the Arizona Country Club. I wonder what their policy is?

[blues90]

18. Golf definition

Gentlemen Only Ladies Forbidden.

[LanternWaste]

46. Except when I play...

Except when I play... always like to have my co-worker with me as she's helped my game a lot over the years. One day, I may even beat her.

[Initech]

20. I'm with George Carlin

When he said we should tear up the nation's golf courses and convert them into homeless shelters.

[babylonsister]

22. THAT is a fantastic idea. nt

[LanternWaste]

47. Why not with every sports and recreation, too?

Why not with every sports and recreation, too? In addition-- raze the museums of science, history and art to make room for the shelters also.

[TheCentepedeShoes]

48. I'd like to be the person to

ask Cindy McCain if she agreed with Mr Carlin.

[aikoaiko]

35. So women are members and can eat at other M/F dining at the club, but there is a seperate room ...

dining facility that bans women.

This is simple matter for the members (men and women) of the club to decide. I'm sure the spotlight of the nytimes will help. A little sunshine is usually all that is needed to grow the seeds of change.

[anigbrowl]

66. I think the ideal solution is an additional women-only dining room

Then people of both sexes will have the opportunity to mix or not as they prefer.

[Scout]

68. riiiiiiight ... because "separate but equal" works so well--NOT n/t

[anigbrowl]

71. They already have a mixed social environment

To be perfectly honest, I think kicking in the door will cause just the super secret business discussions to move elsewhere, defeating the original purpose (getting in on the big deals). Setting up a parallel single-sex dining environment (for a total of three) will be hard to argue against but night well cause more previously exclusive discussions to take place in the mixed environment.

One of the reasons that I am really not that exercised about this issue is that it's one bunch of wealthy people demanding an in with another bunch of wealthy people so as to be able to get a greater share of the wealth. I'd be more impressed if they were also promoting day memberships for poorer people to network with country club members who want 24/7 access - perhaps they are, but I haven't heard about it yet.

[ColbertWatcher]

49. Arizona knows how to treat their trollops. n/t

[usaftmo]

50. Is the membership fee less for women

due to not having access to everything? Even if the ladies pay a reduced fee, this is messed. Yes it's a private facility, but to ban women from only one location while collecting their money...not good.

[CatWoman]

51. did you know that McCain's son is a member?

Gov. Janet Napolitano, a Democrat, is not a member of the club, but Dennis Burke, her chief of staff, is. Mr. Burke has publicly opposed the separated dining rooms, and in an interview called them “indefensible.” Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, does not belong to the club but has spoken there. (The McCain presidential campaign declined to comment on the separate dining rooms.) According to a 2007 club directory, Mr. McCain’s son, Andrew, is a member, along with scores of other notable Phoenix residents, including the rocker Alice Cooper.

[lonestarnot]

54. I had the unique pleasure of booing his ass yesterday at the protest.

[Neshanic]

59. It's not sexist. The men folk carry the pistols and the women get the vapors when they see

the menfolk come in all hot and sweaty from an 18 rounder, with golf bag and shotgun in hand.

Plus the spittoons make them queasy.

[devilgrrl]

70. Bleah, who'd want to hang around such assholes?

:puke:

[carlyhippy]

73. if I were one of those wives, da man could keep his membership

I would just go max his credit cards every time he decided to golf....so there :woohoo:

[jeffrey_X]

72. Back when I was a young punk, I worked at private golf club in Chicago that was men-only...

and no minorities except for 3 asians and a few jewish members.

I'm very ashamed that I worked at this club (Butler National Golf Club) for almost 3 years. Looking back this was one of the experiences that led me on my journey from growing up republican/conservative to becoming liberal and progressive.