McCain: Gun ownership "sacred"... how over the top is this?

[Flubadubya]

"Unlike the elitist view that believes Americans cling to guns out of bitterness, today's ruling recognizes that gun ownership is a fundamental right -- sacred, just as the right to free speech and assembly." (John McCain)

LINK: http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=/Politics/archive/200806/POL20080626f.html

I'm sorry but to call the right to own a device, the sole purpose of which is to bring about death and destruction, "sacred" is about as looney as it gets... and if this isn't the nuttiest of his "nut jobbiness" I don't know what is.

Seems the meaning of the word sacred has hit an all-time low.

There was a discussion on the ABC evening news today about guns and children in urban areas and how so many youngsters are dying every day because guns are so easily and quickly obtained and used. I didn't catch who the name of the person who said this but he had a most poignant point to make when he said, "When we value the right to bear arms more than we value the lives of our chidlren, then what is wrong here?" -- I could not have said it better.

Do you believe that the right to gun ownership is sacred?

[virginia mountainman]

1. Nope, not over the top at all..

After all, it IS, a civil right.

EDIT, yes, it is a sacred right, just like the rest of them.

[Flubadubya]

3. Granted... a civil right.

That was not my question or issue. I want to know if you believe it is sacred? Can you honestly say you believe it is "sacred"?

[virginia mountainman]

6. Let me Clarify...

ALL, Civil Rights are sacred.....

I WILL NOT PICK AND CHOSE over them like a $3.99 Chinese Buffet.....I WANT THEM ALL...

EDIT, Republicans,and there allies, are the ones that want to dissect the B of R, we REAL Democrats, will stand for them ALL.

[Flubadubya]

8. OK, fine...

I guess I just reserve my concept of "sacred" as something somewhat more sublime than having the right to maim and kill.

[virginia mountainman]

9. Are you drunk???

A Right, to maim and kill??

Who said that?? We, have a right to own guns, but not to kill...How silly.

[Flubadubya]

12. Oh no, thank you, I'm quite sober...

I'm just considering what guns and gun ownership are about. What's the use or purpose of a gun if not to maim or kill? ...other than having one just for the hell of it I guess. :shrug:

[virginia mountainman]

20. Why didn't you say that in the first place?

I own guns for MANY reason.

Self Defense, being the big one...

Secondly, I enjoy target shooting.

Thirdly, I enjoy actually being able to hold history in my hands...I have a large collection of Military rifles, dating from 1890, to almost present day...

Most are bolt actions, and some are handguns..


Lastly, I have couple of "heirloom" firearms, These guns have been passed down in my family for several generations, and it is my duty, to pass them on to MY children, as a tangible link to their past.


An example of what I collect..

A German P-38 Pistol



Some British Lee Enfields, all from different nations..



An American M1



I have many more!! Want to see??

[Super Soaker Sniper]

31. The guns I choose are chosen in mind

with how effective they would be in a Zombie Apocalyse scenario.

My Mini-14 uses the common Remington .223 round so finding ample ammunition would not be a problem. It is also a common weapon so it would not be hard to find parts for it by canibalising other Mini-14s. It is also a good accurate long range (300-400 yards 600-800 if you are really good) rifle and has a good rate a fire to light targets up close in.

My M1911 has good knockdown power and the big .45 ACP round will also stop zombies in their tracks when it turns their brains to pudding with a well placed shot. Parts for M1911 are plentiful as is ammunition and it requires only the smallest amount of maintenence to work like a charm. I have owned an M1911 for most of my life and have never found them to be anything but reliable.

I have a Remington 870 12 gauge shotgun. I thought about going with a super cool Benelli Super 90 Automatic Shotgun but in a zombie apocalypse scenario, simple is better than cool so it is the Remington. The shotgun is a last resort clear a path when all else fails weapon.

[cherokeeprogressive]

10. Wow. Gave your objectivity away with that last post, didn't ya?

[Flubadubya]

13. Did I ever suggest I was objective?

No, I quite passionately despise guns and wish they did not exist.

[virginia mountainman]

16. You wish??

You can wish in one hand, and crap in the other....and see which gets filled first....

[Flubadubya]

18. Actually, believe it or not, there may come a day...

when people will no longer see any need or use for weapons. I personally don't think that's crap.

[krispos42]

41. That would be a good day

Nonetheless, I will still want the right to keep and bear arms. I would be quite happy to go my entire life without ever having to draw, much less use, any of my guns in anger or fear.

However, "that day" will be part of a period of human history which will, inevitably, end.





I see frequent posts here warning about the massive and long-term effects of global warming. And the collapsing economy. And other such dangerous situations, whose effects generally can be summed up as drought, famine, displacement, wars.



The concept of an effective state militia is outdated... now.

The concept of surviving off the land is outdated... now.

The idea of American insurgents fighting a guerilla war against foreign invaders is ridiculous... now.

The idea of a Second American Civil war is ridiculous... now.



How about 25 years from now? 50? 100?



Civilizations and empires collapse. It's cyclical. We haven't... yet.

And by fighting so hard on the gun issue, we're probably opening the door for Republican rule which is actually bringing on the collapse.

Not by itself, of course. But when you add anger over anti-gun activities to caging lists and voter ID laws and phone-bank jamming and black-box voting fraud and voter intimidation...

Remember, the Repubs have their thumbs on the scales to the tune of 3 million votes already. Maybe more. There are 80 million gun owners out there. Thinking and watching and talking.

[Joe Holmes]

19. I hate guns too!

Maybe you can fly backwards in your time machine and un-invent them! Then I'll feel comfortable not having one in my home to defend my family with. But until then, seeing as how most of the crooks have them already, (illeagaly), I'll keep mine ready to rock and roll...

[Two Americas]

38. that is inaccurate

You are talking about "rights" as though you meant "privileges" and as though the Constitution was intended to limit the people rather than the government. The 2nd amendment is not about what you can and cannot do, it is about what the government can and cannot do. It is not about guns. It is about the government being precluded from searching for guns, or confiscating them.

You have the right to freedom from the government searching your home and belongings using fire arms as a pretext, whether you have any guns or not.

The 2nd amendment is a restriction of government power, not a list of permissions granted by the authorities to the people.

The 2nd, 4th, 5th, and in your argument the 9th and the 10th amendments to the Constitution would all need to be violated or seriously compromised to outlaw firearm possession.

[RaleighNCDUer]

23. NONE are sacred. Sacred is a religious term and we have a

secular government.

Just to be clear.

[Two Americas]

37. more than one meaning

There is a non-religious meaning of the word, and using it in a non-religious context is not that rare.

[beevul]

2. I hate...

I hate to agree with mcpain, but I must.

The right to keep and bear arms is every bit as "sacred" as the right to freedom of speech/expression, or the right to exercise religion - or not to.

I don't really agree with his characterization of the whole "bitter" thing though.

[Flubadubya]

5. I hang my head in shame!

sacred... really? :eyes: OMG!

[beevul]

27. Why?

Is it so surprising that someone would find protection of the rights of people to be sacred?

Would you feel the same way if I said that I found that the rights protected by the first and fourth amendments were sacred (which I actually do)?

[muntrv]

4. So McSame, do you also find the 4th Amendment sacred? If so, then why

do you support Chimpy's snooping on our phone calls and e-mails?

[varkam]

7. Sure it's sacred!*

*So long as you have not been convicted of any sort of crime

[RC]

11. Sacred? Gun ownership sacred?

Doesn't 'sacred' have to do with religion? I know guns are a religious and/or sexual device for some, but sacred for most people, I don't think so.

[Ghost in the Machine]

24. Yes, *sacred*...

Main Entry: sa·cred
Pronunciation: \ˈsā-krəd\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from past participle of sacren to consecrate, from Anglo-French sacrer, from Latin sacrare, from sacr-, sacer sacred; akin to Latin sancire to make sacred, Hittite šaklāi- rite
Date: 14th century
1 a: dedicated or set apart for the service or worship of a deity <a tree sacred to the gods> b: devoted exclusively to one service or use (as of a person or purpose) <a fund sacred to charity>
2 a: worthy of religious veneration : holy b: entitled to reverence and respect
3: of or relating to religion : not secular or profane <sacred music>
4archaic : accursed
5 a: unassailable, inviolable b: highly valued and important <a sacred responsibility>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sacred

I'm non-religious, but hold many things *sacred* to my heart & soul... things such as our Constitution, *ALL* of our Rights *guaranteed* to us in our Constitution amd/or Bill of Rights, childhood innocence, freedom,... need I go on?

[NYC_SKP]

35. Thank you, because CLEARLY there are many here that will post away before

even knowing the general meaning of a word, never mind the alternative definitions and usages.

It's just so much simpler than developing a dialogue based on "reserved concepts" of words, IMHO.



"I guess I just reserve my concept of "sacred" as something somewhat more sublime than having the right to maim and kill."

(sigh)

[Ghost in the Machine]

43. Wait until you run into one that tells you oral sex isn't sex..because Bill Clinton said so...

The bottom line, though, is that people are going to think what they want to think and believe what they want to believe, no matter *what* the facts say otherwise...

Welcome to DU, NYC_SKP

Ghost

[NYC_SKP]

52. Yup, that's what I call "leaving a legacy"...

for teenage girls to follow for, what, perpetuity?

Like they need help justifying promiscuity.

PS, Thanks, Ghost in the Machine. Great to be here!

:hi:

[krispos42]

42. I carry this gun

My therapist things I'm over-compensating for having a huge penis.


:shrug:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. Sure it is. Jesus was a big fan of killing.

All that "Thou shalt not kill..", "Turn the other cheek..", stuff was just PC stuff that didn't really mean anything.

Shooting people is the Christian thing to do!

[ColbertWatcher]

17. Damn right.

[sl8]

25. Lord knows I'm not very knowledgable about the religous stuff, but ...

I think it was God/Moses that came up with the "Thou shalt not kill" rule. Apparently, there's some argument about whether he said "Thou shalt not kill" or "Thou shalt not murder". I wasn't there at the time and I can't get the #%#@& tablets through my scanner, either, so don't bother asking. :-)

I think that you're right about the "turn the other cheek" quote.

I think he also said something about selling your coat to buy a sword, but I bet he wouldn't have said it if he were in Maine in January.

< edited to add smiley >

[gratuitous]

15. In the land of Redemptive Violence

The ability to inflict violence on a moment's notice from afar is indeed sacred. Just don't expect folks who don't belong to the High Church of Redemptive Violence to fall on their knees about it, Mr. McCain.

[Loki]

21. The Second Amendment

is the only part of the Constitution the Republicans don't take a shit on.

[Uncle Joe]

44. The ironic thing is, the only reason I support the Second Amendment in today's time is because

of the Ninth Amendment, of which the autocratic Big Brother loving Republicans do take a shit on.

[LanternWaste]

22. No more, nor no less than owning a pen...

No more, nor no less than owning a pen...

[sl8]

26. I generally avoid calling anything sacred ...

... because of the word's religious connotations.

Based on one of the definitions in the dictionary, "5 a: unassailable, inviolable b: highly valued and important <a sacred responsibility>", I'd have to say that it's an apt description of any of our civil rights.

[HockeyMom]

28. Sacred guns, sacred marriage

I think a need a sacred tylenol right now.

[AndyTiedye]

29. Sacred? To Whom? What Religions Still Perform Human Sacrifice?

[Redneck Socialist]

30. Not nutty at all. I'm sure that sentiment resonates with many people.

McCain's a raging fruitloop, but gun ownership is pretty central to many people's sense of self. To those people "sacred" isn't over the top at all, ...my cold, dead hands... and all that.

[tuckessee]

32. Only thing he's said that I agree with 110%.

Good job, McCain. I sure wish a Dem or two was sage enough to feel the same way.

[NYC_SKP]

33. Sacred are the Bill of Rights......surely you agree.

McCain is a poser, he doesn't even believe half the shit that comes out of his mouth.

I'll say this:

The ten amendments are interdependent, loss of any one may lead to the loss of others.

I do not care to give up any part of any one of them, including the second amendment.

To give that one up would be a gift to those who'd like to have them all eroded.

[LeftishBrit]

34. Could a gun be called a graven image?

[Two Americas]

36. sacred

Sacred - "worthy of respect or dedication."

The Bill of Rights is sacred.

[krispos42]

39. How about this?

When we value the right to privacy more than we value the lives of our chidlren, then what is wrong here?"

Feel free to replace privacy with any other right that BushCo has buried in dogshit. And feel free to add the adjective "terrorist's" in front of it, as in "When we value the right to terorist's privacy...".

:shrug: It's the same bullshit excuse in a different form. "All of a sudden we can't have any rights because if one person dies, it's too much."

I don't buy it when the Right does it, and I don't buy it when the Left does it. Thankfully the Left does it far less than the Right does.





The "children" (nearly all between the ages of 14 and 17) dying in the urban areas usually have criminal records and/or are part of a gang of some kind.



If your goal, Flubadubya, is to lower crime and homicide rates (which, incidently, are at the lowest point in my 32-year lifetime), then we can do that best and soonest by getting our progressive agenda on the fast track. Ending corporatism, free-trade, and globalization. A progressive income tax. A green economy with only the vague remeants of oil left. Quality public education. The return of the single-income working and middle classes. Universal single-payer health care. Legalization of recreational drugs. Etc., etc., etc.

All this will do far more to lower crime and homicide rates than decades-long struggles to make legally owning guns difficult and unfashionable with the hope that in 50 years it might be a little harder for a crook to get one.




It is not acceptable to say "Hey, poverty, hopelessness, lack of education, and broken families are okay as long as the crime and homicide rates are low".

[SemperParatus]

40. Indeed it is sacred

Everything given to us by the constitution (and by extension the founding fathers :O) is truly sacred. Personally I also find it a bit of a stretch to call a firearm something that was designed with the sole intention of bringing about death and destruction. I mean, if that's the case, you can say the same about a bow and arrow, which are also recreational and sporting goods.

Sure, all firearms are capable of killing, but that doesn't mean that is what all of them were designed to do.

[Occam Bandage]

45. Unfortunately, it now is, yes. Constitutional rights are sacred, and the Supreme Court

has ruled that individual gun ownership is a Constitutional right. Until a the Court rules otherwise, or until Congress passes a new amendment changing the wording of the 2nd, individual gun ownership is a sacred right.

[beevul]

48. Just a nit...

"or until Congress passes a new amendment changing the wording of the 2nd"

Just a nit to pick here, but congress hasn't the power or the authority to change the wording or meaning of any constitutional amendment.

To amend the constitution requires a constitutional convention, and a 2/3 majority vote among the states, IIRC.

[Occam Bandage]

50. Yes, they do. Per Article V, the Congress may by a 2/3 vote

propose an amendment to the Constitution, which may of course effectively change the wording of any other article or amendment. (The states may by a 2/3 vote call a convention which may make the same proposition.) Once proposed, the amendment requires 3/4 of states to be ratified.

Sure, Congress alone can't do it, but since we're all smart people here, I didn't think I needed to write "assuming of course 3/4 of states then vote to ratify the amendment." This is a discussion board, not a civics class.

[beevul]

51. I stand corrected.

In fairness though, what you wrote lacked the context you have since added, which is why I misunderstood the message you intended to convey. I do understand it now.

Its all good though. No harm, no foul, no disagreement.



Have a good day, Occam Bandage. :toast:

[krabigirl]

46. Heck no, I don't. It's a scary thought to me, really.

[aikoaiko]

47. Literally sacred? No. Metaphorically sacred? Sort of in a secular way. Its a civil right...

...deserving of our protection as if it were sacred.

[baldguy]

49. Guns are pornography

and sacrilegious